Enough is Enough

gtg (70) · 6 years ago

And by the way - if one of the most experienced Steem users and #1 witness @gtg is flagging your posts, you should know that you're doing something wrong.

Just to be clear: I'm downvoting some of @chbartist posts because I disagree on rewards (obviously that's my subjective point of view), I wouldn't overesteemate my impact there. My 100% VP vote in many cases affects less than 1% of potential payout.

I'm not a fan of such content.
But I'm not a fan of vote selling services either.

And here's the thing:
we can vote for what we like to make it to the trending using "wisdom of the crowd"
XOR
we can sell our votes.

We can't have both.

@itstime is making a very good point. There are no clear guidelines and investors that are not familiar with Steem might be confused.

If there's a shooting range with toys to win, and you don't have clear limits, I'm going to take all the toys with me. Why? Because I like toys. Or because I to shoot. Or both.

You really don't want to scare away your customers by randomly banning those who are winning (good at shooting or maybe just lucky today). Putting general limits would be more healthy and cause less drama.

$0.23

therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago

we can vote for what we like to make it to the trending using "wisdom of the crowd"
XOR
we can sell our votes.
We can't have both.

Does the wisdom of the crowd work with self-voting, circle-voting and stake-biased votes?

@itstime is making a very good point. There are no clear guidelines and investors that are not familiar with Steem might be confused.

He did and we're actually working on that.

But regardless, I learned a lot from this encounter and had a chat with @chbartist.

I'll handle other encounters like this in the future differently.

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itstime (60) · 6 years ago

Suggestion : please issue a guideline what you would view as appropriate use of promotion service - frequency / subject of post/ usual traps/ red line to cross.

Quality control is important for promotions services and so is setting transparent expectations for the content creators.

3 votes

therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago (edited)

I understand and will consider that, but there are things that should be self-explanatory. We're on a decentralised platform, without any real central authority and I won't babysit people.

And again, I've told chb x-times that he should tone it down. Meaning: just saying something, won't result in people listening or taking action.

itstime (60) · 6 years ago

Guidelines will probably not help in such cases where the content creator is not responding to 4-5 PMs but for all other creators/promoters to set expectations in a way that it doesn't create friction for all stakeholders.

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therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago (edited)

There are no guidelines that can be applied to all. And how would you guideline tweets on twitter?

Tweets need to be longer than 20 characters
Tweets need to include and image/video/sound
...

Improve the incentive of flags and people will think twice if they want to promote shit-content.

itstime (60) · 6 years ago

Alright , here is first draft.

Guidelines to consider when promoting your post.

Low effort post : it is generally frowned upon to promote a low effort post to trending page.
Frequency : it is generally not a good idea to send every subsequent post to trending page , although there is not set rule but if people see that you are just using a rinse-repeat model , it is likely that it will not view favorably.
Flags: No-one can predict what is the last straw that will break camel's back but there is a point where the community decides to flag a promoted post .IMP NOTE - this will probably lead to a ROI negative event for your promotion , meaning you will lose money when people flag your post down from trending.

Here are few examples :
<example 1>
< example 2>
<example 3>
<example 4>

4.Blacklist - repeat offenders will be blacklisted and will not be allowed to use the promotion service any longer . Keep in mind that you maybe added to a global blacklist which most of the promotion services share and you may lose opportunity to grow a high reputation account any further on steemit.

5.Use common sense - of-course we want to enable you to promote your content but there is a balance that needs to be maintained for overall quality of platform.So here are few great examples of how people have used promotion services in an appropriate way

$1.37

2 votes

therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago

I like that! Interested how the 2nd draft will be :)

3 votes

phgnomo (64) · 6 years ago (edited)

That is a good PR move from you, and since i know you are a Very intelligent businessman i couldn't expect less.

But let's talk a bit about the contradictions.

First i have read some of @chbartist post, not my kind of reading, but he pass in the abuse checklist:

Original content
Not spams
There is effort in his content
A lot people read and have real Interaction with his posts.

His sin? Spend money to stay on the trending page.

Meanwhile, we can see posts like this, and this, and this (the last user seems to be downloading YouTube videos and uploading on dtube) using the same services (smartsteem) and dont get this kind of reaction.

Not to say the shittier posts we see from time to time on trending using bid-bots including smartsteem services.

But since @chbartist brought attention from the big boys to what your service is promoting, i guess that would be bad publicity right?

I dont mind the existence of bid-bots, but treating an user in a different way only because he got more attention than others is not a good thing on my view.

But dont mind me. I am Just a minnow writing what i think...

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therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago

Thanks, but this isn't a PR move. And the blacklist status isn't due to his content, but due to months of trending page abuse.

And regarding the posts you linked:

I will not judge content as long as those people aren't exceeding the promotion limits. I've already told @dinver that he should tone down his promotion few days ago.

In the end, promotion is also a tool to distribute wealth even more. And I don't want stakeholders who use Smartsteem to earn with their stake to have the feeling they are supporting trash trending content.

Regardless, thank you for the comment, @phgnomo. It is valuable regardless of your wallet-size.

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por500bolos (68) · 6 years ago

Well, now this is kind of interesting. For a ritzy Union of 'bidbot entrepreneurs' and bunch of wealthy people who have always tended to advocate for that of "Everyone can do with their stake what they please" within a very varied community with many different lifeforms.

But don't worry. Perhaps sooner than later all the posts that have been boosted by bidbots will go and end up to the category to which they really belong in steemit. The Promoted Tab. Which should not annoy anyone anymore. You see? Even simpler solutions with the adequate political will to carry them out in one fell swoop. };)

Meantime, I concur with @itstime suggestions as the right way to go. For now!

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holm (67) · 6 years ago

Thanks for taking a stance against this kind of promotion. Good to see one of the bit bot services also shows interest for the steemians.

Your service is the only I use for this very reason. Both for selling my 8k SP and buying for some smaller promotions. :)

It's always been opinion and my go to example how a vote selling service should be done! although not perfect, light-years ahead of everyone else.

Cheers for the future of us all!

Posted using Partiko Android

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therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago

Thank you @holm!

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maxijgcomm (54) · 6 years ago

I think two or three warnings are enough for someone to heed to. The fact that this is a decentralised system does noy mean that one is above the law. Good decion.

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therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago

Most rules should be imposed by the system - e.g. through incentivizing downvotes as well.

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maxijgcomm (54) · 6 years ago

You are right. Perhaps they would have to review their rules and regulation again.

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enforcer48 (68) · 6 years ago

My, oh my, how the tunes have changed! Lol

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joedukeg (61) · 6 years ago

Finally someone speaks about this, I'm tired of the garbage that guy post, or let me explain better, the problem is not his content, it's how he is sharing it with the community, how he abuses the promotion tools... The things he publishes about have a lot of potential, and I think he's wasting it on the way he promotes it. Do you remember the time I told you that what you were posting was shit? @chbartist I don't think so anymore, but I still think it's not right what you're doing.

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appalachain (53) · 6 years ago

Truth be told, I might, on occasion, look three or four posts down the trending feed. It's usually nothing I'm interested in anyway. I prefer to scroll through the "New" feed. That way I dont miss something more up my alley that I otherwise probably wouldn't have seen because it wasn't promoted to death.

I mean, I get it. I signed up when Steemit was a month old, if I remember correctly. I use a bot or two. But I've noticed a few people that get a vast majority of their upvotes from bots. Now, I ain't gonna hate on anybody for making money, but if you aren't getting organic growth in your following, real people aren't upvoting your content, what's the point?! That's an important feedback mechanism. You need that to know if people are enjoying your posts or if you need to make some adjustments. That's my two cents.

Posted using Partiko Android

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robertandrew (67) · 6 years ago

Thank you @therealwolf for having the balls to post this and to stand up for what is right. You continue to impress me with your dedication to Steemit and your abilities as a Witness.

Kudos to you my man

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matt-a (65) · 6 years ago (edited)

Good job! I blacklisted him a while back and started flagging a bit. $1000+ payouts on these posts?! Come on!

I also personally think that he doesn't even write them and someone else does. If you look at his comments he can barely even speak english and uses some pretty bad/bizarre grammar that's on a different level than the body of his posts.

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libert (63) · 6 years ago

Haejin, Bernie rape reward pool daily with shit posts, you have no problem with that?

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therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago

That's not in my control and they are using their stake.

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libert (63) · 6 years ago

Alright.

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steem-ua (64) · 6 years ago

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eadieneill (25) · 6 years ago

Very fair and open post. I am fairly new to Steemit but i like the way it seems to work around here, open and seemingly well self regulated. Kudos.

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linnyplant (60) · 6 years ago

I think I’ve read only one post by this steemian, it seemed alright to me. I generally ignore the trending page. Why not just put in logic for a cool down period to help some with self control...? Or maybe that’s too hard. Blacklisting seems a little harsh to an over eager customer.

For the record, thank you for providing user-friendly tools. :)

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ahmadmanga (65) · 6 years ago

Wow, that was harsh but also for a good reason, who likes to get abused... I use upvote service like #SmartSteem & #MinnowBooster but only in a way I think fair.

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goldrooster (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

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Reveal Comment

therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago (edited)

Best client?

Smartsteem's best clients are those who are not abusing the power they receive through promotion.

And of course, those who put the trust in Smartsteem as vote-sellers and delegators.

Trust me, it was not an easy decision but after telling someone 4-5 times that the behaviour is not ok, I think that is enough.

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hitmeasap (71) · 6 years ago

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Reveal Comment

therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago

It's about standing up for your own values.

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hitmeasap (71) · 6 years ago

I have no idea why matt flagged my comment, but yeah, I agree with you. I personally didn't think you'd blacklist someone like him, so I'm happy to read these news. It was a pleasant surprise.

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