I don't think he's either. But we'll come back to that.
I think some hierarchies are destructive (statism, classism, racism, sexism, ageism, authoritarianism, etc). Some hierarchies are certainly natural but I wouldn't call them "good." I'm not a moral relativist and yet I recognize there is no big "T" Truth. If a hierarchy causes harm and decreases human wellbeing, I think we should resist it. Some hierarchies don't directly do that, but they reinforce patterns of thinking which do. When I speak of my dislike for hierarchies, I am mostly just talking about those which are not voluntary or those that create separation which can lead to authoritarian thinking.
I agree about religious use of judgement and shame. As for people not using their ego well, that might be an important part of this story. It's possible the "god consciousness" can be a beutiful, loving thing if used to help others as you all are doing.
A healthy hierarchy doesn't TAKE power - free people give it freely.
That's a beautiful statement. My concern, I guess, with regularly giving over power to others is that it creates a pattern which can easily be manipulated by the State and religion as they have done throughout history. As with many things, the problem starts in the mind. That's why the myth of authority is so destructive.
Do you think I judged or condemned Quinn? I said my personal interactions with him reminded me of narcism. You were not present during that interaction I had with him, but when I go through each bullet point on the psychology today website, one at a time, they almost directly fit the interaction I had with him. The correlation is quite amazing. That's not a judgement or a condemnation, it's simply an observation of my own experience.
I did say that behavior is "condemned by others as a disorder." If Quinn isn't harming people (and from your personal experience with him, he isn't) then it's possible he has found an amazing way to have the same brain structure as someone with narcissism and yet channel that into something positive in the world instead of something negative. For that and more, I celebrate his accomplishments and the love he spreads.
I don't think accurately describing my experiences, to the best of my ability, does a disservice to myself or humanity. Granted, Quinn may not have been fully sober when I interacted with him which may explain some of the interactions we had, but I don't think I'm judging it as "bad" as much as I'm pointing out similarities between it and what society says is bad.
Keep on spreading the love and if you believe there is good to be had in the world, strive for it. :)
Oh, also, thanks for the link on Yoga and war. I found it interesting, but not personally appealing to me. I think war is bad with no way to make it good. If I, as an individual, had to fight to protect myself or my family or my community or the helpless or anyone being aggressed against, I would. My understanding of the word "war" has more to do with nation states and governments creating armies and invading. ("a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.") To me, war can not and should not be justified. Your post describes "with total devotion and total detachment" and that, to me, is not a healthy mindset at all. That is what shuts down moral thinking. That is what makes monsters out of humans. I much prefer reason, logic, evidence and techniques like NVC (non-violent communication).
It was life affirming to read this exchange between you and @saramiller . Your respect for each other in conversation and debate is what we need. Honest discourse. Even the opinions of hierarchy for and against bring balance.
There's an interesting scene in the feature "Darkest Hour" where Winston Churchill played by Gary Oldman takes the tube in order to gauge the average person's appetite for all out war. It's an example of what you two are discussing. You need the ultimate strategist in Churchil. And you need the will of the people to execute the strategy. Dish washer to Leader.
Looking forward to more conversation with you two! Rock it!
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Hahaha, thanks @nathandduvall - I don't know if I've ever had someone cheer on a conversation! Glad you're enjoying it as much as I am.
I respect & appreciate @lukestokes and find great value in our exchanges. It's quite fun to surf the brain waves with him, and I think it's awesome we honor each other even though we disagree a lot!
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You too, brother!
I think it's so important for humans to continue examining their thinking, and I appreciate that you're willing to do that with me here.
Hear, hear!
All these -isms and definitions are creations of the human mind. I see that modern minds have been programmed by seriously dysfunctional systems, but we're at a really important turning point in human history where more people than ever are becoming aware of the matrix. I believe everyone wants to choose a better way, but even if you're aware of the matrix, it's really hard to rewrite old codes and truly break free.
Judgment is one of these deeply ingrained programs, and yes I see it playing out in the fact that you brought up Quinn and feel inclined to label narcissism. Even if you're not explicitly calling it right or wrong, labels and definitions are forms of judgment - they limit a another person's infinite potential so I can feel more comfortable by categorizing that person within my belief system.
Denial that judgment was passed also illustrates that you're not fully aware of the extent of it. I understand that you don't intend to do it because you are a nonviolent person, but the matrix reveals itself.
I trust you recognize that I mean no disrespect, nor am I'm saying that you're wrong and I'm right - I mean to bring awareness to unconscious programming and expand possibilities. My intention is to dismantle the systems that keep humans separate and in conflict with one another, and that means holding one another accountable when we see unconscious programming playing out. Challenging belief systems is difficult, and it's way easier for me not to point any of this out...but I think it's valuable to discuss!
I appreciate that you checked out that post, and of course I have lots more I could say about that - to me, the "war" is an internal fight. I believe the key to world peace is for every individual to make peace with life's constant and unrelenting challenges, and if every individual is firmly rooted in their own power, then there is no system that could ever manipulate them!
I like conversations with you because one point leads to a thousand more, but I'll end here for now and check out the NVC link you shared.
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Thank you for clarifying how "war" as you're describing it is something internal. That fully makes sense to me.
I love these conversations as well. I think I may be a little confused about how you view judgement verses categorization. I think judgement often has a negative connotation, as you've described, but I also think it can be very useful. If I see an adult hit a child, for example, I make a judgement that a moral wrong has taken place based on my NAP worldview and, if given the opportunity, I'd want to change that situation to protect the innocent. Judgements, to me, are categorizations which fit our moral understanding and biases. I personally don't think narcissism (as I understand it) is very healthy. It can cause mental conflicts and can lead to others being used. I also think it's perfectly find to notice (i.e. categorize) how something fits a pattern without necessarily putting a moral judgement on it. If someone has all the tendencies of a narcissist, for example, but they are uniquely using it for good in the world, that's an amazing thing and worth celebrating and highlighting (IMO) for those who are trapped in destructive narcissism which actually harms others.
I know you don't like ism's and labels, so if it's helpful, you can replace everywhere I said "narcissism" with these bullet points from the post I linked to:
Labels can limit us and stereotypical thinking can make us a little stupid because we start thinking in groups and generalities instead of in terms of individuals and specifics. I get that an appreciate it. I also think labels can help save us some time and categorize and group ideas so they can be discussed as a whole.
Thanks for the enjoyable conversation. I hope you like the NVC stuff! :)
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