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individualist573 (29) · 7 years ago

Working for a capitalist is voluntary. There is no crime, there is no oppression if you chose that. In an anarchy one could choose to work for no one or even set up a cooperative. Now i argue in a statist world working for others is not volutary we are not allowed to provide for ourselves nor transact buisness freely.

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freebornangel (73) · 7 years ago

Working for a capitalist is voluntary.

Hunger makes it mandatory for the largest percentage of the population.
Yes, people can exist outside the crapitalust paradigm.
No, it is not an option for the majority.

In an anarchy one could choose to work for no one or even set up a cooperative.

Under anarchism, if you become known as a bum you are not gonna like what happens next.

Now i argue in a statist world working for others is not volutary we are not allowed to provide for ourselves nor transact buisness freely.

Very true, who finances the state?
Crapitalusts.
The state, as we know it, could not exist in a voluntary society.

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individualist573 (29) · 7 years ago

thanks, i read chapter one. it is kinda long.

freebornangel (73) · 7 years ago

Well, that is the funny thing about knowledge, there is a lot of it, and it takes time and effort to acquire.
But if you want to be a credible know it all, and not a blow hard, it is the sacrifice one has to make, imo.

Take your time, it's your freedom that you are seeking.

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individualist573 (29) · 7 years ago

i know i know its just my eyes hurt reading on the computer i need a kindle. really.

freebornangel (73) · 7 years ago

They got tablets for very little, they can read pdfs.

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individualist573 (29) · 7 years ago (edited)

So from what i partially understood was that ancoms want the workers to own all the fruits of their labor, so like anarchosindicalism. The problem is see is decision making, worker owned factories are usually democratic so if i disagree and am the minority im screwed. Thats why i would have to fork off and produce my own organization and make it NOT democratic to prevent the same thing. I believe all the issues communists have with capitalism will be erased when the state is erased. And i dont mean to belittle you or ancoms but i have lived in the real world quite some time and had seem the worst of both capitalism and small communes, worker assosiations and villaegers asociations in south america. They just dont work nor provide individual freedom. An indigienous commune wants a town party to get drunk and demands all the farmers to give money. Or they have town meetings and make decision for me. As an individualist i dont want group decision making, and private ownership of goods provides the best framework for me to do so.

freebornangel (73) · 7 years ago

Look, the reports of what an-coms are doing often differs from the reality.

If you get caught up in the whos and hows, but lose site of the goal, you will never reach the ideal.
Each of us is responsible for replacing what we consume from the work of others.
That is easiest done by mass production.
Absent banksters and crapitalusts we do that on a local level that is easy to manage.
Here is short novel from 1887 that illustrates it pretty well:
Looking Backwards by Ed Bellamy

If you don't support killing to control, that is what is important.

lived in the real world quite some time and had seem the worst of both capitalism and small communes, worker assosiations and villaegers asociations in south america.

Sure, when it is use it or lose it, they want to use it.
Communism and crapitalism are mutually exclusive, they cannot coexist in harmony, only separately.
It will take the workers waking to their power to change this paradigm.
The Monkey Master Fable by Liu Ju

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individualist573 (29) · 7 years ago (edited)

ok wait. i dont support killing to control. but i dont see how the private ownership of the means of production inherently kills. I do see how the marriage of state and corporate power kills. Besides maybe your sindicalism factories might be more efficient and out compete private ones since there is no profit (which means sell products for less). but i mean what if i want to sell or buy labor since that is WAY easier to do then cooperate whichout exchanging money. Im all for voluntary cooperation but in my experience people want money for their time, not future promises.

freebornangel (73) · 7 years ago

i dont see how the private ownership of the means of production inherently kills.

By denying it to all others at all costs.
If I need some food, crapitalism says I have to first be exploited for my labor, and if my labor has no value in the market then I can just starve.

Granny needs her lawn mowed.
She can't do it, she is 80.
You agree to do it for $3.
Granny can make and market a dress for $3.
Aren't you proud?
You made granny get a job, rather than helping the old lady out.

Im all for voluntary cooperation but in my experience people want money for their time, not future promises

Well, I don't know how more immediate we can make it than next Tuesday.
On any given Tuesday we can switch paradigms and everything is free from that point on, all we have to do is convince the workers to keep going to work, and/or become ones ourselves.

The folks between 20 and 50 can carry this world, and all it's consumptions, on a work week of about 20 hours with a lifetime cap at 20,000 hours.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-conquest-of-bread

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individualist573 (29) · 7 years ago

Besides i think all communists forget that self suficiency is posible. You technically can produce your own goods without ever purchasing from others therefore theres nothing to replace. Like you make it seem as there are only two options: wage slavery or communism. But there is a third self sufficiency, dont hire anyone and make your tools from scratch. no one put in labor into nature. It all comes down to either natural goods (no imput of labor) belong to everyone or belong to no one. I claim no one owns what they did no put in labor to produce.