Are Bid-bots Good For Steemit? - Yes or No? - Best Argument For Each Position Wins 5 Steem!

stimialiti (60) · 6 years ago

Sale of votes happened and happens behind the scenes, where people contact one another, offer payments and come to agreements.
The best bidbots only make this more transparent, orderly and accessible for most users.
One need not be a connected or reputable or charismatic personality in order to buy votes.
Did you mean vote selling, or did you only refer to bidbots?
Vote selling is a harder question.

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adriatik (51) · 6 years ago

You got upvoted from @adriatik bot! Thank you to you for using our service. We really hope this will hope to promote your quality content!

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sleeplesswhale (39) · 6 years ago

You got a 28.57% upvote from @sleeplesswhale courtesy of @stimialiti!

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steemdiffuser (39) · 6 years ago

This comment has received a 90.91 % upvote from @steemdiffuser thanks to: @stimialiti.

Bids above 0.1 SBD may get additional upvotes from our trail members.

Get Upvotes, Join Our Trail, or Delegate Some SP

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moonbot (54) · 6 years ago (edited)

I run @moonbot , which is a non-intrusive subscription based upvote bot.

I tried to make it so anyone can have a simple small upvote over 31 days, giving
them a chance at some dollar costing average on the SBD value. It is different than
a bid-bot. Which leads me to go into what I think about them.

Bid bots I always felt were for people looking to get an ROI on their posts.
In other, words profit. I didn't like that aspect for whatever reason it seemed
gamed and unnatural. Well, it turns out its more of a marketing tool then anything.
You spend to get reputation, followers and yes, exposure to your post.

Spend $100 on a bid bot and you spend $5 on marketing at the end of the day. This
is the line of thinking of I'm seeing more and more. But,your SBD is getting 1 to 1 I believe.

Self voting is interesting for sure. I do it and I do it with comments.

Good debate!

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tonyr (60) · 6 years ago (edited)

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts with us @moonbot and for the excellent explanation of your position.

I hope your day is going well mate

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son-of-satire (69) · 6 years ago

I will do this tomorrow, though it will likely be lengthy so I will do it in a blog post.

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3 votes

tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Cool bro. Just link the post in the comments for me please.

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glenalbrethsen (68) · 6 years ago

Just let me say upfront I appreciate the effort here to try to bring all opinions to the table. Also, I'm just here to offer up an opinion, so no need to consider me for any STEEM please.

I don't know what using bidbots ultimately does to the reward pool or doesn't do. I don't know how much people spend, make or don't make. I don't know how much owners make or the delegators to them. I just know what people post, and it sounds like by and large the bid users get mixed results and the bot owners/delegators range from shady to kind of generous, while the biggest bots make the most money.

That said, here's why I don't use bidbots:

I don't want to spend hard earned SBD.
The only so called advantage I can see to using bidbots is to get to the top of the trending page, which on any given day takes $500 on up to do (and I don't have that kind of SBD to spend). Meanwhile, I'm also told the trending page is highly regarded as trash, which no one looks at. Why would I want to spend time and effort getting to it if no one (presumably) looks at it.
I don't want to skew the numbers and misrepresent my earnings. What ends up on the posts is a gross amount, but it doesn't factor in what I would pay to the bidbots to get there.
I've got better things to do than figure out each time which bidbots to use and when in order to increase my ROI.
If I use bidbots, I feel like I'm telling everyone else that my post is good, rather than letting curators decide that, even if visibility is lousy here.
Bidbots affect reputation ratings. I know reputation isn't that big of a deal anymore, but it's because people use bots and self-upvote so much that the reputation is out of whack, along with circle voting and delegations and everything else.
I don't think bidbots should have large SP and high reputation ratings, but both can happen. Bidbots have been used, in at least one recent case, to flag another bot account for commenting on posts that use bidbots with the amount spent.
Bots can take the optimum position to upvote for curation, blocking the humans. I root for the human curators because I am one.

Hunh. I thought there might be more reasons, but I guess I've ran out. Maybe if I think of more I'll add them. Those are my reasons for not using bidbots.

Thanks for providing a forum for this. :)

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4 votes

tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Thanks a lot for tge kind words @glenalbrethsen abd also for taking tge time to so ckearly and eloquently set out your views on the matter. Its definitely a divisive issue right now and one I think we need to resolve between us before we and steemit can reach our true potentials and youve made some excellent points that others should consider when coming to tgeir own conclusions.

Have an awesome day mate. :)

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paparodin (54) · 6 years ago

I gave bots a try over the last week and had mixed results. I suspect that Bots become better the longer you are active on here and the more money you can spend on them, but let us put that to the side.

Overall, I am not fond of Bots existing because I feel like they have an unhealthy effect on the community. I don't want to go through my entire train of thought, but I feel like Bots existing diminish the quality of overall postings and demotivate people to leave comments which hurts the whole aspect of forming a community.

I also dislike the rhetoric behind bots. They make it sound like they are here to help, but in the end, they are just made for free passive profit. While not something I am against by default, I just dislike the way it is delivered.

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tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts @paparodin.

You make some good points which I'm sure will help others who happen upon this post to better form their own judgements and opinions on the matter.

Enjoy the rest of your day my friend. :)

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paparodin (54) · 6 years ago

It's 23:20, so my day is pretty much over at this point.

It is an interesting topic, especially for new people around here. Discussion on it should be encouraged, I am thrilled to see where this is going in the near future.

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tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

:) Have a great nights sleep then my friend and thanks again for adding your voice to the discussion. It definitely is a area of our little decentralised community that needs more focus, consideration and resolution as soon as possible.

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bashadow (65) · 6 years ago

The question being; Are Bidbots Good For Steemit???
My answer would be no they are not. My reason is simple; here is what the Steemit FAQ pages say about Reputation:

Why does my reputation score matter?
A reputation score is one way Steemit measures the amount of value you have brought to the community. In real estate, they say there are three variables of the utmost importance: location, location, location. On Steemit, those things are: reputation, reputation, reputation. It’s not to say other variables aren’t important, but reputation will be an enormous factor in your level of success.

Reputation is built by the number of votes received, whether natural, curation trail, or bid bots. With the first two, I view those as honest votes, and valuable votes toward the reputation of an individual. Bid-Dot votes are bought and paid for votes. There was nothing reputation wise earned. Just a politician buying a vote.

All that being said, The votes purchased by bid-bots are allowed to be sold. The use of an individual's vote is entirely up to them. I have no problem with people who want to sell their vote, I do not even care if they cheat the buyer, (life sucks when people can sell and buy votes), if you try to buy a vote and they cheat you, I honestly do not care.

In conclusion Bidbots have destroyed the reputation system of steemit, therefore they are not good for steemit.

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tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Hi @bashadow. I hope your day is going well my friend.

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts on this divisive issue. I have my own opinion of bidbits and their pros and cons but for tge sake of tgis post Im trying to remain as neutral as possible but I think you raise a very important point in terms of the reputation of all of us individually and as a group.

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bashadow (65) · 6 years ago

If it was just a person selling a vote, or a person buying a vote, it is their vote, but what a lot of people do not realize is that buy votes is also buying reputation.

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bashadow (65) · 6 years ago

Thank you for making my Sunday start off with a bang. It was a pleasant surprise.

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tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

You're welcome mate. :) Thanks again.

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eddard (60) · 6 years ago

Thing I don't get is self voting being considered reward pool rape and using bid bots? Its basicly the same only with bid bots your feeding the whales as well

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tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Thanks for sharing your thoughts @eddard.

Hope your day is going well mate. :)

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freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

Using a bidbot is hiring a thug to go around and rob every other vote on the platform so you can get rewards that the community doesnt feel you deserve.
The whales that delegate to them know, and dont care.

Thanks, stinc!

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tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Hey @freebornangel. I hope you're having a great day mate and thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us buddy.

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freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

Yep, same to you.

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son-of-satire (69) · 6 years ago

That might be the best way I have ever seen it put.

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freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

Thanks, i do like callin' 'em as i sees 'em.

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chaidir082 (51) · 6 years ago

hello @tonyr, in my opinion, no matter how much income from every post we though little should be thankful, because from there we learn comparison, why posting people have a lot of results ??, sometimes if we use the bid-bot also sometimes can harm us with the amount of SBD we give to the amount vote ybg given inappropriate Bid-bot.
keep the spirit with the work it self do not be shy though look a little from jasil we get.

tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts @chaidir082.

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kristyglas (61) · 6 years ago

The most negative effect I've experienced is lots of artists and creatives that Ive been following for almost a year, leaving the platform. Bidbots devalue everyone else's time while making a profit from a gambling system. I might be wrong, but won't investors get worried if the main system on Steemit is earning money through possibly illegal gambling? Loot boxes got enough attention so governments had to do something about it. It's a risky game for short term profits for only a few.

tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Hey Kristy. Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts on the subject. I'm not going to express my own opinions on this post as I have already done so in the past but I just wanted to agree with you about the artists and others who've come and gone in the time since we've been here. There's definitely something that needs addressing in terms of retention of users. :(

I'm missing a lot of familiar names in my feed these days. I'm not sure whether it has anything to do with bots or not but it is a shame nevertheless. :(

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kristyglas (61) · 6 years ago

I actually stuck around coz it's a hobby for fun and to de-stress :P I still hope to see some artists return, just like I did. I had to take a break for personal reasons, so I guess some others did too.
I will be trying out the upcoming ONO social media for creatives. Apparently I can even revive some of my old Steemit posts :)
The thing I hate most I guess is that posts are dead and useless after 7 days. On ONO it should supposedly be different.
My brother is enjoying Steemit, but I totally lowered his expectations before he joined xD

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yintercept (61) · 6 years ago

There are enough people on this planet living life in robot mode. So, I don't think we need robots doing the same.

Assuming that the humans using SteemIt are like other humans, I suspect that people will discuss politics on the platform. As soon as political candidates start using it as part of their campaigns, the Steemit Community will find itself pulled into nasty political discussions.

Is an upvote for a political candidate a campaign contribution? Is the purchase of bots a campaign expense?

The bots will be a major bone of contention along with the international flavor of the community with people yelling that Russia is trying to interfere with the election through Steem.

The widespread use of bots makes will amplify the political use of the platform.

tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Thanks a lot for adding to the conversation and sharing your thoughts with us @yintercept. You make some really interesting points concerning a possible and potential future for steemit that many would do well to consider. I like the forward thinking. :)

Hope your day is going well my friend.

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thoughts-in-time (64) · 6 years ago (edited)

If you deposit 1m into a bank with a 5% APR and don't touch that money for a year. When that year is over you can withdraw 50k from the top and do the same thing next year.

Most banking customers don't think in this way because they do not have holdings that large. If banking was unnaturally transparent like Steemit wallets are, then some people would look at the interest earned by wealthy folks and be pissed the f*ck off.

They'd say well it would be better for everyone if we could all split so and so's APR. Not only would it be better for everyone but it would be better for the economy at large.

If you could magically remove bid bots from this platform overnight you might run the risk that stakeholder bot owners would dump their SBD to the market. This would cause the value of the SBD to plummet.

In addition their would be less capitalists willing to buy the dip if capitalism, even to the nth degree, was forbidden from the platform.

The banks provide this APR because by having your money in the bank the bank benefits. I think that Steemit probably operates in a similar way by rewarding large stakeholders handsomely.

In summary, the value of SBD is bolstered when large stakeholders retain it in the form of Steem Power. These guys are a large chunk of the market and add allot of value to the SBD.

What they are doing may not feel right or look right on the surface but when you consider the fact that the SP that they hold is their property then one has to ask themselves if they believe in property rights or wealth redistribution?

Wealth redistribution can get pretty nasty if it's not done via voluntaryism. There are a myriad of communist countries that one can look to as examples. The outcome of this style of governance is generally mega death.

Thank you for posing this challenging question @tonyr!

tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Thank YOU for taking the time to add your voice to the conversation @thoughts-in-time.

I hope you're having a great day my friend.

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thoughts-in-time (64) · 6 years ago

Ty, so far so good. I hope that you are well too!

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omstavan (52) · 6 years ago

I think, if bibots have max roi fixed at say -10% or -20% then the whole point of profiteering out of the bidbots is over. Someone can use it promote their posts but they can't profit out of it. The point of promotion is also met, the point of no profiteering is also met. But, sadly to make this into reality, the only possible approach is like that of @grumpycat

tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us in the subject @omstavan.

Hope your day is going well mate.

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gduran (69) · 6 years ago

I don't like bots, and I think all of the negative aspects that I can think of have already been listed in a lot of articles. So I will go to the positives: I have to leave out owners and delegators because the bid bots are completely positive for them. But there is one thing where bid bots are positive for the whole community, and that is that some people do buy a lot of Steem with fiat currency to use bid bots I have seen posts that have used up to $500.00 in bidbot votes, this is money that is invested in Steem on a daily basis, which makes Steem be constantly on the move on the market, and probably has a direct influence on the price of Steem.
Of course this isn't intentional, I don't think bid bot owners have even considered this.

travoved (65) · 6 years ago

I think that bots a part of steem. We can be both for them and against them. But this does not cancel the fact that they will be used further. Now I rather support the use of bots as so as when you are outside of any community and try to live on your own way when you'll want to promote your post you'll need to use bots. Especially when you are new or at the beginning of your way you don't have many followers so you need to use bots to promote your posts.
But don't forget that:

when you are using bots you also may loose your money especially when it has negative ROI or exchange rate of Steem SBD falls down;
some one can crash your profit at last moment if you use bid bots.
Also yu can use bots and services for your profit when you delegate your SP or sell your votes. But before don't forget to read TOS.

tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Hey @travoved. Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts with us mate. I really appreciate the time you've taken to do so and you make some points that I'm sure could help others in forming their own opinions.

I hope you enjoy the rest of your day buddy!

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mlgcrypto (56) · 6 years ago (edited)

The entire reason that people have a problem with bid-bots is because they don't understand basic business/economics/marketing principles. These idiotic crybabies see other people making $200+ per post while they're getting $0.03 and rather than admit to themselves that they need to work on their content or their marketing skills they would rather blame the system that they cannot participate in because of their own lack of skills or funds.

If you're complaining that bid-bots make things unfair because the stake weighted system favors those who already hold stake then you fail to realize that without bid-bots the system favors those who already hold stake even more. Anyone who has been here long enough will attest to this, sadly what they say gets thrown out the window because anyone who has been here that long is seen as an evil whale.

Before bid-bots, only those who already had the attention of other whales, or were whales themselves ever hit trending. Now we have a system that allows minnows and dolphins a way to buy their way to the top of trending and join the ranks of the whales and dolphins. Sure it favors those who have money, but thats is just a fact of life that you poor people are going to have to deal with. Feel free to stick your head in the fucking ground and pretend that when correctly spent money doesn't make progressing through nearly every facet of life much easier.

______endrant______

Sorry to be so accusative but I'm sick and tired of this global sentiment that is anti success. While it sounds like a good idea equality of outcome has never produced sustainable progress if any at all. What does though is equality of opportunity, and while the current system may have its flaws removing bid bots will not serve to make this better, as it will only serve to remove one of the greatest opportunities for poor steemians to become rich.

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son-of-satire (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

I hope you do not mind that I will be responding to this argument in a post tomorrow. You are welcome to come and respond once I have done so. I will not share your name in the post, as it is the argument I wish to offer clarification on. This isn't about making you look like a fool.

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mlgcrypto (56) · 6 years ago (edited)

Everyone has a choice. Even slaves have a choice. Death or slavery. -- Daario Naharis

this just got you a follow. As the ilk of an escaped slave I almost 100% agree with this. One of my old signatures was .

"Open your eyes slave, the keys to your shackles are right in front of you. You can either wait for them to release you or you can stretch your arm out and take it."

While there are definitely undeniable physical components to it slavery is mainly a mental thing. Ive read that the final secret of the Masons is that "we are all equal".

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son-of-satire (69) · 6 years ago

Ive read that the final secret of the Masons is that "we are all equal".

I do not think I have heard this before. It's funny though because I have been thinking about this a lot again recently. I've been looking at the things I am a lot better at than most and those that I am far worse than most at, and wondering if we are all equal, but that it is more like an equal amount of points distributed in differing ways across a number of base attributes. Like how it would be choosing a character to fight with on a computer game.

But then I meet some people who are rather dumb, rather ugly, and rather a cunt also. I have to wonder which attributes of theirs are at level 99 to compensate for the lack in other regards.

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mlgcrypto (56) · 6 years ago

I wish i had a better response to this, but this is actually something that I've just recently read and been pondering about ever since. It was discovered accidentally while researching the connection between gangstalking and mass shooters.

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tonyr (60) · 6 years ago

Thanks a lot for adding your point of view to the conversation @mlgcrypto.

I hope your day is going well mate.

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ashike (41) · 6 years ago

That is amazing!!............

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