Will Hiveminds (Communities) Kill Paid Bots????

in busy •  7 years ago 

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The other day we received an update about the Hivemind (aka communities) feature that is going to be added to the STEEM blockchain. This is a long anticipated update requiring a Hard Fork. Without getting into too many details, one of the main attributes, from a user perspective, is that it will allow for "communities" along the lines of subreddits.

One of the biggest challenges to the STEEM blockchain right now is that it is really a vast stream of information. Articles are posted and basically that is it. They are like pieces of driftwood on a river. Each article is submitted at the top of the river where most of the people are located. This helps since most of the people standing on shore are located here. However, since all articles start here, it is hard to garner the attention of the crowd.

What makes this more challenging is that not all the people are scanning the entire river. Instead, some people are only focused upon a portion of the river that feeds the driftwood into their view. If one is lucky enough to be diverted to this place, being seen is a lot easier. Those who miss out on that are relegated to competing with all the other pieces of driftwood.

Since most of the people are located at the top of the river, we see very few further down. There might be the occasional fisherman who looks up to see you a couple days later, yet that is rare. Overall, it is the initial burst that gets one's article seen. After that, it is basically floating away unnoticed until it reaches the end of the journey 7 days later.

Enter bid bots.

This puts the driftwood on steroids. Even though it is still in the mess at the top of the river, it pumps each piece of wood up, tripling its size. This makes it stand out more in comparison to others. While there is a chance many do not see it since they are only looking at a single area, anyone scanning the entire river will notice the steroid laced piece of wood.

That is basically how STEEM works right now. Articles that are bid up using bots are inflated in size and reach on the trending page. This makes them stand out more than all other articles on here. Since STEEM is just a continuous flow of articles, if one does not make this list, that article floats by and is basically dead after a couple hours.

This caused a great deal of controversy, from what I can gather, since the start of STEEM. Some look at bots as providing a terrific service while others feel that it is just a way for the developers of the bot to get an incredible ROI. Either way, since this is a blockchain, people have the right to engage in them.

At the same time, people also have the right to try and counter this system. @heimindanger put together an article with a program meant to offset some of these votes. His view is that articles that have extensive bid bit upvotes should be downvoted.

https://busy.org/@heimindanger/operation-clean-trending

Since discussing the merits of bid bots, or lack thereof, is not the intent of this article, I will leave it for others to decide. However, what I did get thinking about is the fact that the Hivemind could make this all a moot point.

The entire premise of bid bots is to get exposure. Since we are involved in a huge stream of articles, this is a way for people to stand out. Without attention, one's article is doomed to float away without much in the way of compensation. Of course, one needs to work at interacting with others to gain a following. This will help to give on more exposure.

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That said, I believe the community feature will alter this a great deal. Instead of people seeing articles based upon their interaction with others, communities will enable focus to become more topic based. We are going to see groupings established which rests upon area of interest.

For example, a community that deals with ancient Aztec literature is going to attract people interested in that. While that might not be a large group, it would be a dedicated one. Therefore, all who are involved in it will get to know each other quickly.

The situation is a bit different in some of the larger groups. If there is a community for photography, people will have to work harder to stand out. The one advantage is those who produce quality content consistently will stand out in this community. It might be bigger than ancient Aztec literature, yet is much smaller than the continuous feed on Steemit that exists today.

Another nice aspect of this is that Whales, Orcas, Dolphins, Minnows, and Red Fish are all going to be mixed in together. A newer person who joins a group and start to interact, posting quality comments and articles, will catch the attention of the community. If it is a topic that a Whale or Orca is interested in, the chances of getting a large upvote are increased significantly.

In my mind, all this will make the trending page, if it even exists, much less appealing. People are going to be focusing their attention in different communities. Hence, the goal is to become a bigger fish in a smaller pond. In fact, since we all have many areas of interest, we are going to be operating in a few different ponds.

The question is how will those communities embrace those who use bots to increase their position? Some communities might reject someone who takes that approach. While the vote might be there from the bot, the other members could choose to ignore it.

Also, is there even a need to spend the money on the bots? It is highly possible that one can get the attention of the community without resorting to using this service. Instead of one big river, STEEM will become a multitude of smaller streams. A few quality posts with some expertise could well propel a newer person to the front of the line as a knowledgeable poster.

What are your thoughts on this? Will the Communities feature hurt the business of bid bots?

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This is a long anticipated update requiring a Hard Fork.

I just want to comment that the the Hivemind feature is a non-consensus layer on top of the blockchain, meaning it will NOT require a hard fork.

Okay thank you for clarification.

Do you know anything about a release date. Personally I find Hivemind to be more important than the HF20. As a content creator I think things will be lot better when Hiveminds come out.

Yeah, I have been waiting for communities since I joined steemit like 8 months ago. I really feel like this is a necessary thing, especially when more and more users are joining. While everyone is talking about SMT's, I waiting for communities to come first, because it will make the whole experience on Steemit a hundred times better.

The endless stream of articles, pictures and videos makes you wanna look away, because more often than not, there's no posts that are within your interests. It's just random stuff thrown at your face. Once we get communities, I imagine that I will spend A LOT more time on here.

I agree with you @trendo. I also think we will see the growth of different categories in a much more efficient way. I started posting in the technology section when I first joined but everything ended up in the abyss simply because there are so many aspects to it. For example, there are people who posted about the breakdown of cell phones...I am not interested in tech at that level...rooting a samsung holds no interest to me just like my level of technological view isnt of interest to many others.

Another nice aspect of this is that Whales, Orcas, Dolphins, Minnows, and Red Fish are all going to be mixed in together. A newer person who joins a group and start to interact, posting quality comments and articles, will catch the attention of the community.

It seemed like when I joined eight months communities on Discord were the place; and that still stands now, but I wish we had a way of meshing the communities we belong to on Discord into the steemit platform. I usually don't go to the trending page myself, I prefer my own feed and even sometimes peek into the NEW tab looking for unknown members for my curation posts.

I don't and never have used bid bots; all my votes are manual and have been from day.

Hivemind are best capture

Hi there Mah Task!
Miss you ... so, I've done a short "study" on my own.
I have gone into many groups and left many as well. I have found that groups or IMO "hive minded" just upvote each other and many times not exactly the same interest, but support each other. We see The Alliance, SSG, The Steem Engine, Steemitbloggers, and they seem to work within themselves with some stating they are not getting the upvotes they are putting out .
I also see groups such as Curie also giving big upvotes to those they feel are "of quality," and many times the same people. As some have told me guilty of being lazy and just go for whom they feel is a "safe bet."
The study of mine included leaving the groups and seeing if the people would stay connected to me based on "interest." The answer is no, they did not continue being my "friend."
I've gone back to some groups only to find people have an attitude as if I caused them injury.
This is me just testing the waters of Steemit, and not really playing into the "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine," I only upvote matter that I find raw, original, and real.
I'm not sure that I would want to just be grouped in with people someone else felt that I should be socializing with. For instance, FB the only way my 5k friends ever popped up in my feed is if they or I interacted with one another and manyyyyy of my other friends were ignored and would ask why they never saw me again ... I would hate for this to happen on Steemit.
Hugs,
Eagle

Interesting analogy on using a river to describe Steem and the influx of posts as driftwood. I had to laugh at the driftwood on steriods metaphor as I imagined how it looked like all muscled up.

As a beginner before and having now a lot of people I follow yet so when I have nothing else new in my following feed I go to the trending to check what constitutes good content here and know what I found a truckload of crap.

Of a woman enjoying a meal somewhere, of an ICO that is surely a scam, of one photo and not even any accompanying text. I thought to myself what sorcery is this??? who's balls needed to get fondled for this crap. I didn't know bots then.

Upon learning about bots I vehemently disapproved of them and although now I have changed my mind on them and see it as a tool to promote your post and get more eyes after that initial posting.

The hivemind with its community feature might well change that as there will be moderators and the others of community might aid people from ignoring or downright not seeing a post done in bad taste.

I am afraid of moderators though because even in Reddit and Subreddit there are people who had the power get into their heads so I am interested how we can prevent that.

Also what if you wanted to see something different from what you normally read how will that happen. I am not a technical person so a lot of the github was gibberish to me but I just have to wait and see.

I'm pretty interested as well how it will affect the discord communities.

We are on the same page. I also did start with the idea that's bots are a plague but changed my mind to neutral!
A moderator is a dangerous thing, because on of the power of Steemit was that had no censorship! And moderators are some kind of censorship! While we should trust them and they should be neutral, they are only humans with bad and good days, with favorite members and members who they dislike!

Yeah I am neutral with them as well as I see the need for it for investors but also see the need for it to reign in a bit.

they are only humans with bad and good days, with favorite members and members who they dislike!

I completely agree with this statement and I have seen how some powers corrupt moderators and they censor things that they don't like or agree on and even kicking people they don't like.

I do have mixed feeling with the bid/flat rate bots! In the beginning I was completely against them. I did try them and still are experimenting them.
One could see it is a paid advertising, other do see them as a real plague! I did change my mind from completely against them to neutral (with the advertising part in mind).
My opinion now, is that there is nothing wrong with using them to give your post some more exposure, but it is a complete different story if people only use them to get on the top of the Hot or trending pages. I will fully support if the hot pages would be based on the interaction count on posts. Not only from the commenters but also the replies from the author of the post!
I did devote a post about interaction on Steem and why it is crucial! And yes to be honest I did use resteem services to get it noticed. Not get rich from it, but because I do find it utmost important that people do read it! Sorry, to let you down on this part!
But what I did not like in the proposal was the possibility to downvote posts! This will just start a new flagging war! And this is something we really could miss on the Steem blockchain!

I don’t mind it when people use upvote services to get to the trending page. In order to buy your way to the top, you need to have some SBD staked in the company already.

The trending page is like Hollywood, that’s where all the people that want to look flashy hang out. And yeah, sometimes they make bigger incomes, but sometimes they are just going into debt to look good (paying more for upvotes than what you get in return).

At the end of the day, the only way to counter spam is to take the time to read your fellow writers’ work, and have genuine conversations.

Being on discord helps too.

Never though about comparing it to Hollywood, but it really suits the Trending page!
Interaction is all that matters, for the moment bots will not be able to replace this!
I don't do Discord, what am I missing? Already spend to much time on Steemit to read, write and comment.

If Steemit was Facebook than discord would be like messenger/Facebook groups.

But discord isn’t connected to steem, it’s just a system we use.

Ok, thx for the explanation!

We do have steemit.chat our version of discord but people have stopped using it :(

Can't even create an account there. But hey I did create a profile at discord. Will take some time to figure out how these things work :)

IIUC you need to use steem.chat instead of steemit.chat now.

it autodirect to the site anywho

You have put a very strong argument on how the community feature that will come with hivemind will make the use of bidbots to decrease in patronage. You are right in most of it but then this is human beings involve and as long as bidbots service are there, people will always find a reason to patronize them. These days I have even heard arguments that some claim to use bidbots not to get noticed but to increase their reputation. When I first came to Steemit, I thought reputation was the only thing that cannot be bought but must be earned. So, you see? People will always find a reason to patronize this services.

Everyone agrees that this was long due... The chainbb interface tried to address this to some extent, but it really needs a more fundamental change to make communities intrinsic to the Steem value chain which is what Hivemind will do. Looking forward to many great thriving communities in the next few months

A project created to stop/counter a different project will never reach as far as if it had its own goal.

It’s like trying to create a sheriff instead of genuinely trying to find a solution to the problem.

People want to get compensated for their writing, so until some type of “basic income” is given to users, then people will continue to figure out different ways to get paid for their words.

Sure spammers exist, but most of us (😂😂😂) on Steemit, who spend hours on the platform really value our own words. If we didn’t value our words, we wouldn’t spend so much time commenting. People get compensated, either with community, dreams of future investments, or actual incomes, but people need to be compensated.

Using upvoting services has an art form to it. You have to find the profitable ones, you have to get “whitelisted” you have to weigh the investment, you have to watch your payout go down when the price steem goes down, etc etc etc. People don’t “just” profitably use bots - they have to work for it!

Yea, the trending page is already completely unappealing because of the poor quality of bid bot posts. Communities will be a big step in the right direction for forming groups that interact with eachother. I'm guessing people will seldom step outside their own groups once this gets up and running and as long as the group isn't spamming articles it will help newbies get recognized

I enjoyed your analogy! I agree with you about communities narrowing the amount of driftwood in a certain stream and making pieces more visible. I think we can see that happening on a small scale already ... groups have formed that encourage (and reward) certain types of content.

Bots may not go away entirely, but I agree that certain communities will exclude / discourage their use.

Regarding the trending page, one reason I’m not sure it will go away is because it acts as a marketing tool for Steemit. I’ve read several newbie posts discussing how they joined after seeing the trending page (and were quickly disillusioned ... but it got them here!)

Do you think Steemit will continue to “curate” attractive posts from the communities for marketing purposes?

I don't think the Hive can kill upvote bots but they will certainly mitigate some of the damages. This development comes not a moment too soon. The people of Steem are getting more and more fed up with the stagnant waters downstream. Patience is a virtue that many lack.

I agree. Seems some want everything to happen overnight. Development and coding doesnt work that way. Release something too soon and it will either crash all over the place or have bugs coming out the you know what.

It sucks having to wait but that is the way it is. Patience is key.

I just wanted to say that you explain the communities in a very simple and thorough way, really enjoyed the read. Also, your river analogy was on point.

That being said, I can't wait until communities. My interests are very defined and not that common, therefore I believe I will benefit greatly from the creation of smaller communities.

I hope you're right. It could do a lot to boosting exposure. On the other hand, I don't know if the bid bots will die that quickly. Over the last month I've seen the number of bots double or triple. It's crazy how many are coming online. Still, it would be nice to have groups where you can share rather than just sending your post adrift into the ocean. :)

Communities will offer people a natural social enviroment where to interact with other instead of this giant jumble of articles that steemit is now.
I bet votings bots will be a big no no in some communities.

great😉

Beautiful post

My only question is when, not if, obviously changes will need to be made and they will be made...but when.

It’s time.

And hours to go before I sleep,
And hours to go before I sleep.

Cool. Would be the first hardfork since I joined. Communities do make sense, I would like it too be more as an image board than like Reddit

As economist I always try to look at the Financials. And I really wonder if people's greed will win from something else?

I think I can already predict that people take 2 accounts. If they not already have. 1 account for the social aspect of Steemit. And the second account to play the financial gamefication. Where the one that plays the game the best wins the highest amount of money....

I really hope the community feature works as you describe. Bid bots really are the necessary evil to grow, otherwise I really feel like I'm posting into an abyss....

I really hope so. I am quite curious how it will turn out!

Is there an ETA for the hivemind feature implementation?

Phase one could be out very soon...a couple weeks...which is the back end test phase....so users will see no difference but developers will.

As for the full change to the interface, no clue when that will happen.

Wow, things are about to get interesting. When does the Hiveminds feature begin?

  ·  7 years ago (edited)Reveal Comment

I don't agree with the last part. Suppose that mister Sanders reads this and decides to start a flagging war against you, you will be powerless. He can downvote your rep down the drain! But still you would be the same person as before the war started only a lot of others, who don't knew you before will have a complete different opinion about you!

  ·  7 years ago Reveal Comment

Fully agree on that one.
The problem is that we never know who will be destructive and who won’t.
But it is a 2 side cutting knife, cause a party would break loose if we would get a 100% upvote from a whale. The bottle of champagne is already chilled but in my case I will probably have to use it for another celebration 😂