My Conversation with an Atheist Turned Norse Pagan...

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told not to talk religion or politics with people you do not know very well (especially on a first date). But I say screw that. I work as an EMT, and I almost always have a new partner. I always talk politics, and religion comes up most of the time (I also talk eating healthy, getting jacked, reading good books, and then I take naps). A few weeks ago I was working a shift with a nurse transferring extremely sick patients from hospitals that do not have the necessary equipment to help treat patients to another hospital that could care for them. This shift is often slow because these type of transfers do not happen frequently. Therefore, on these shifts there is often long chunks of down time. People do various things. This particular shift was devoted to a very long discussion.

One of my partners for the day was Thomas (ironic? No, because I changed his name to Thomas on purpose… go ahead, doubt me). We settled in and began a bit of a philosophical/political debate. Okay, for real, super interesting. Thomas professes a left leaning, used to be an atheist but now norse mythology practicing, political and philosophical ideology that is highly influenced by a Canadian Christian Existentialist… That’s eclectic to say the least… Me? Well, I’m a Christian that taught Bible in a private Christian High school for 8 years. I do not like the government telling me how I should live my life or lead my family (God does a far superior job). But I do think we need to figure out how to love the poor and disenfanchised in a biblical manner (which is so cool when you read about it!). Lastly, I think public policy is extremely ineffective and inefficient at changing people’s hearts, which is, I think, desperately needed in our world.

Okay, so… WHAT DOES ALL THAT MEAN?! What it means is that Thomas and I had a kick ass time talking about all things faith, politics, and philosophy for about two hours. It was one of the best discussions I’ve ever had at work. Nothing was held back. We talked about meaning and purpose and nihilism and morals and ethics and identity politics and sexual harassment and the Bible and gender roles and gender identity and why Trump won and why we’re doomed as a country and holy crap it was sweet. Interruptions occurred no less than 100 times. Thomas told me when I was full of shit (and then apologized for saying shit in the presence of a Christian... I politely let him know that I can say shit, ass, damn, fuck with the best of em). I explained to Thomas why I thought his liberal/secular philosophy was weak as heck and not thought through enough (he proceeded to laugh in my face). The entire conversation was characterized by Thomas or Me saying our thoughts and working to take no offense (which was actually quite easy for me because Thomas kicks major booty) and then in turn I decided to take courage to speak my mind, knowing he could very easily be offended. Neither of us left offended, neither of us felt chastised, and if anything did happen, we were hungary to continue our discussion later. Interestingly we agreed on so many things. Go back and look at my list… most of those topics were topics that we completely agreed on.

All that intro is to talk about the one thing that I loved about our conversation. At one point Thomas stops everything and says, “You’re a Christian right?”

Yep.

“What does that mean to you?”

I don’t remember exactly what I said but I explained that I believe God created the world and everything in it, we’re messed up as humans (yet beloved at the same time), God sent his son, Jesus, to forgo his Godly identity and become a lowly human to die as a sacrifice for our sins and rise again, conquering death, so that I can have eternal life. Here was his problem.

There are all these rules you have to follow to be a Christian (Thomas alluded to the ten commandments), and you don’t have to really follow any of them to be Christian. His point argument was related to his observation that there are plenty of people that do a great job following the rules but do horrible things in the name of God. Or, another piece of anecdotal evidence was that people can live horrible lives, and then profess faith in Christ at the end of their life to end up in heaven.

I started with the second problem he had. Thomas brought up Hitler specifically. Thomas’ questions was that if Hitler had professed his faith before he killed himself in his bunker would he have gone to heaven? I answered emphatically yes (choosing not to address the debate about suicide). Here’s why. Hitler exemplifies what is in all of our human nature if it is not tempered by God. Hitler, in a lot of ways, is a character driven by natural desires and doing everything he could to make them come to fruition. Hitler was the very best at following his heart and how can you fault that (completely different discussion which I think I just showed why it is an incredibly weak way to live)? So would he have been forgiven for his sins? YES! If he looked back at all that he had done and realized, in humility, all the ways in which he had rejected God truly repented God would have forgiven him. In truth, if Auschwitz survivor Eva Mozes Kor can forgive Josef Mengle and the guards that kept her in prison, and she is a mere human, why can’t the God of the universe do far more? (Check out the story here! https://www.timesofisrael.com/video-of-holocaust-survivor-forgiving-mengele-goes-viral/) The question in becoming faithful and being “saved” relies on the humility in recognizing the way your life falls short of God and needing him to stand in for you, It’s pretty clear that forgiveness is for all regardless of how the world judges you. To some, that will make them reject God because they don’t think he should forgive someone like that… But someone like that, in humility, will recognize they don’t really deserve forgiveness. There are plenty of us today that think we DESERVE to be forgiven. That arrogance may be our very downfall. You or I may not be the architect of a system that kills millions upon millions of people, but we have a very dark humanity that has done and is capable of doing horrible things to people. We may not have taken lives in a literal sense, but it is so easy to act in ways that can cause inner death toward people and take advantage of them. Think about times you have done that. Do you think you DESERVE forgiveness from that person or those people? We think too highly of ourselves.

Another great example of this is the Apostle Paul. If you read about Paul in Acts before he is converted you will read about a murderer that much more closely resembles what ISIS is doing in that area today. Paul grew famous for going from town to town persecuting and murdering Christians. Christ personally appeared to him and his life was forever changed. He became one the most influential, if not the most influential, Christian. His writings make up a majority of of the New Testament and his reach spreads now further than he would have ever imagined. If God had worked within the confines of how we wish him to work, then we would not know the power of his salvation and forgiveness. Paul is an example of God’s immeasurable grace and forgiveness for all who turn toward him in humility.

The second question Thomas wanted me to address was about rules and whether or not you have to follow them.

My first and favorite response to this questions is always what Jesus teaches. In both Matthew and Luke Jesus addresses the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law this way ,
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.”
It is clear here that Jesus is concerned with the way we treat people, not the way we follow the letter of the law. But notice! The letter is still important! But arrogance based upon how well you follow the law, when you neglect justice, mercy, faithfulness, and the love of God is the sign of death and sadness. I spoke to Thomas about the importance of how we treat people. We can do everything perfectly in the eyes of the law but neglect people and be doing wrong in the eyes of God. There is also imperfection in humans. We will; never do life perfectly. We will always sin and fall short, but how do we respond? Make sacrifices? Give a few more dollars in the offering plate? Make a donation to our favorite charity? Fast? Or, will we get alone with God, ask for forgiveness, and then ask for help as we move forward. The second way requires quite a bit of effort on our part. We cannot just be lazy lumps of coals sucking off of Jesus like a parasite of sorts. But rather, we live in a symbiotic relationship with him where he gives forgiveness and everything else, and we go out with what he has given us and try to live out his calling. 2nd Peter (among other places) seem to back me up here.
“His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness,
Through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which
he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you
may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in
the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
How clear is it that we been given all to go out and work! This is a different calling that what I learned growing up in a seeker friendly church. I learned God would transform you through prayer and confession, not so much effort. Or, I would be taught that good Christian boys and girls act certain ways, you needed to look like a Christian, or little pharisee. I told Thomas that this is something I remember always being taught growing up. It was something I wrestled and fought for a long time, but it just didn’t seem right. Now, I know that God can and does transform people. But more recently I have come to understand that if I pray for something like more trust in God I don’t get more trust automatically, I often time become more exposed to events that will require me to put more trust in God. The same is true with something like courage or being more patient. That is why I think it is incredibly dangerous to pray that God would transform me into his likeness, he’s going to be faithful and give me opportunities to submit to his will. But, the object is not to become some sort of super Christian that thinks he is great at all things. What this kind of living actually does is make you turn your thoughts and concerns over to Jesus because you are not strong enough to do it on your own. This continual turning of you life over to Christ and looking for opportunities to surrender to His will make you follow the will of God more closely. All of this talk made Thomas think. He spoke to me in very secular philosophical terms but, you could see his wheels turning. It is not how he had been presented Christianity before.

Unfortunately, we got a call at this moment and could not continue our conversation, but it was a great one. I know it led to Thomas looking at what he believed and why. I look forward to the opportunity to work with him again and continue our conversation.