All too often I hear or read or see stories online about people who’ve died and gone to heaven or hell. They recount specific details about what they saw and heard. In some cases, it’s clearly undeniable that something happened to them because they provide details that are impossible for their imagination to have made up. For example, providing details of dead relatives they never even knew existed. How’s that even possible? What can explain that?
What can the Bible tell us about this?
Lets read the following text and see what scripture says about the “state of the dead” and what can we learn from the following text?
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
“5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”
Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psalm 115:17
“The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into *silence*.”
Psalm 146:4
“His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.”
Daniel 12:2
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
John 11:11-14; 24
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Let’s summarize what we’ve learned through these bits of scripture.
Once you die you:
- No longer have any thoughts, emotions (love, hatred, envy), memories.
- No longer work, have no wisdom.
- Can’t even praise God, because you have none of the above.
- You can’t talk to anyone, you are “silent”!
- You “sleep” and wait for the “last day”…the day where Jesus returns and resurrects you back to life.
With the information, we read above, let’s see if we can answer the following questions.
| Question: | Answer |
|---|---|
| Can my Grandmother who died 30 years ago hear me? See me? Feel happy or sad for me? | No. No. and No. According to the scripture above, that would be impossible. |
| Can she send me messages of wisdom? | No. |
| What if I die and come back to life 10 minutes later? Can we talk to each other briefly during that time? | No. |
| When will I go to heaven? | When Jesus returns to gather up His people. |
As Christians, must we stick to the Word of God, even when our senses tell us something different.
What are your thoughts on this?
Dear @truth-be-told,
Ecclesiastes 9:5 reads, “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.”
First, it is clear from other places in the Bible that this verse cannot mean the dead have absolutely no knowledge. For example, Matthew 25:46 speaks of everlasting consciousness: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Every person will spend eternity with God in heaven or apart from Him in hell. Each person will have feelings, thoughts, and abilities that exist in eternity.
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”… Revelation 6:9-10
The martyred saints have consciousness, feelings and voices.
In fact, Luke 16:19–31 offers an example of human capabilities in the afterlife. Lazarus is in paradise in eternal joy, while the rich man is in torment in hell (called “Hades”). The rich man has feelings, can talk, and has the ability to remember, think, and reason.
Second, Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2. There, Solomon states that the dead are “happier than the living.” However, when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist.
The key to understanding the statement “the dead know nothing” is found in the theme of the book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes is written specifically from an earthly perspective. The key phrase, repeated throughout the book, is under the sun, used about thirty times. Solomon is commenting on an earth-bound life, “under the sun,” without God. His conclusion, also repeated throughout the book, is that everything from that perspective is “vanity” or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2).
When a person dies “under the sun,” the earthly perspective, without God, is that it’s over. He is no longer under the sun. There is no more knowledge to give or be given, just a grave to mark his remains. Those who have died have “no further reward” in this life; they no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living. Eventually, “even their name is forgotten” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
The saying “the dead know nothing” seems to be a negative sentiment, but it is not without a positive message. Solomon encourages his readers to live life to its fullest, knowing life is short. In the end, the fullest life is one that honors God and keeps His ways (Ecclesiastes 12:13–14).
Shalom. Steven @lastdays
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Hi @lastdays and thanks for adding to the conversation.
I agree with you, in that in heaven there will be people who will have thoughts, feelings and will praise God. But there's a sequential order of events that need to take place first and I think this is key to understanding how Matthew 25:46 can make sense in light of the previous scriptures I provided that says the dead have no thoughts, etc.
If you read several verses before Matthew 25:46, for example, read from verse 31-46. You'll clearly see that scripture is talking about when Jesus returns. So yes, when He returns the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living in Christ will be able to have thoughts and feelings, etc.
You see, the sequential order of events presented in the Bible (which all early followers of Christ believed) is as follows:
In regards to the book of Ecclesiastes, the main idea of "under the sun" deals with things of "man" and the writer (believed to be Solomon) is drawing the reader into understanding that following "mans" ways of seeking happiness is futile. Instead, seek for things "above the sun" or "heavenly things." The author continually sees the emptiness and futility of power, prestige, and pleasure apart from God. The answer to true fulfillment in life is found in accepting all that comes in life as "from the hand of God" (2:24). The conclusion of the book is to fear God and keep His commandments. That is the entirety of the book.
Therefore, "under the sun" has nothing to do with when a person dies...it has everything to do with how you live.
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Death generally frightens people. The feeling of leaving your loved ones and thinking of seeing them again creates a sadness in most people. Death makes everything equal. We have to get ready to die. Death is not the last sleep, last awake. And we can not bring anything to the world when we are born, nor can we take anything when we are dead. @truth-be-told
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You're right. People fear death because most don't know what to expect. We morn and have a sense of disbelief that our loved one is gone because we were never meant to experience death. When our time comes, it will not matter how rich or poor we were. The only thing that will matter is our character and our relationship with God.
As a Christian, we have the great hope of the resurrection upon Christ's return. So death is not the final goodbye for Gods people.
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This post has received a 15.05 % upvote from @booster thanks to: @truth-be-told.
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The Bible is clear that the dead are conscious in heaven or hell. You left out the verses that don't support what you seem to believe.
(Luke 16:19-31 NIV) "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. {20} At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores {21} and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. {22} "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. {23} In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. {24} So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' {25} "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. {26} And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' {27} "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, {28} for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' {29} "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' {30} "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' {31} "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
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Thanks for the comment, you brought up a common issue people run into when reading the Bible. In this case, it would appear that the Bible is saying that the dead know nothing, have no feelings and cannot speak, and then in Luke, it seems to say they DO feel, think and speak. In this case, you must ask yourself the simple question. Can the Bible contradict itself on something this big?
You only have two options.
After studying the short story of Luke 16:19-31 it becomes clear that this is not intended to be a depiction of what heaven is like. If that was a description of what heaven was like, then this would contradict how the Bible describes heaven (Rev 21) as a city of Gold. Is it a city of gold or is it Abrahams boosm? Furthermore, Luke 13:28 says we're going to actually meet Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets. How are we meeting Abraham if we're all walking around on him? I don't think Abraham wanted to be everyone's doormat.
The short story in Luke 16 is nothing more than a parable. An allegorical story designed to convey a truth or moral lesson. This parable uses the typical symbolic imagery and figurative expressions.
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The Old Testament writers weren't told about hell. They were talking about death based on their own human knowledge. You can't reject what Jesus said and accept what the Old Testament says.
You can't say it's a parable. Luke doesn't say it's a parable. Jesus has no explanation for what it means. You have to accept what it says: that the righteous are in heaven and the unrighteous are in hell and they're suffering. The bottom line is that you refuse to accept the truth. That's dangerous for anyone.
If it's a parable then what does it mean???
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Luke 16:19-31 does not prove that people go to heaven when then die. We need to ask ourselves some simple questions:
This was a parable given by Jesus and not a literal account of real people. Even though it does not say it is a parable within the verse, only 11 out of the 26 parables in Luke are actually called parables.
Also Abraham is unquestionably dead and without his reward Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40.
What the verse is actually saying is subject for debate (not whether people go heaven or not) about who he is referring to, for instance _"...dressed in purple and fine linen..." may be referring to the priests. Purple in scripture is used for the priestly garments Ex.39:2, 24, 29; royal clothing (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15) and wealth (Rev 18:16). Fine linen was also used in the priestly attire: ephod, robe, mitre, bonnet; and wealth (Rev 18:16)
In Israel, the high priest was clothed in purple and fine linen everyday... so he could be referring to Caiaphas as the unnamed rich man. Following the context chapter will help to greater understand what Jesus was actually saying.
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Yes the poor man is named lazarus but does that mean that THE lazarus literally went to heaven when he died? And just because lazarus is mentioned does not mean that it definitely is not a parable.
What is the purpose of resurrection when the dead are already in bliss or in torment? That would mean they are judged already, and as a result, the coming judgement when Christ returns will be null and void.
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The poor man is named Lazarus. Nobody is named in any of the parables. If it's a parable what does it mean besides the fact that the evil dead are in hell and the righteous dead are in heaven?
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I think you have a good point i have that feel and i know its all about no1 team i sure hope we have time to gather up aur energy and start to change percepcion and win in the end if you like abstract art check me out @chupapic good post i followed and upvoted keep up the good work we still have a chance if we all try
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Unfortunately, I think when you go, you go. There are some unexplained things that happen that sure seem suspicious at times. I'd like to think these are spiritual guidance, especially from lost loved ones, albeit so unrealistic. Some of them are just dreams which can easily be explained as your mind inventing something, just as it does for any other dream.
When it gets odd and you find things where you know you've looked before, that is weird.
I know I went into my grandparent's house about 14 years ago after they both had died. My grandfather died 20 years prior to that time, so we were essentially cleaning out my grandmother's house which had remain unchanged since my grandfather died. I went there looking for one thing in particular, which was a magic trick that grandfather did when I was 12 years old. This was also the age when he died for me. When I set out to find it, I was drawn to a bedroom drawer that I wouldn't even think of looking through and I know positively that anytime he did that trick, it was done in the kitchen downstairs. I never saw him go upstairs to get it. He just seemed to have it in his pocket sometimes, so it is not like I subconsciously remember or spying on where he kept it. I never knew he kept it there, or if he kept it there. It wasn't even his bedroom. It was my mother's old bedroom when she lived there 30+ years ago at the time.
I opened the drawer and there it was, sitting right there in plain sight for me to see, front and center. It was the oddest thing I ever expected. And no, this was not my mother setting me up to have me find this. I didn't tell anyone that was one of the things I had hoped to find. I went with some family members on a mission to simply clean out, salvage and get the house somewhat ready for eventual sale.
How was I guided to that? This was not a small house. There were 4 bedrooms, a full middle level of the usual rooms and a basement full on junk that was semi-organized. That little pocket sized magic trick was like finding a needle in a haystack in 10 seconds. For this reason, I have to wonder. There have been other things too. For the most part, disappointingly though, I think that when you die, that is it. For that reason, I try to live my life as best I can. I am not banking on being reunited with people and watching over my children and having them rejoin me someday. It is sad to even write about. I still have that 1% doubt though. Maybe that is a defense mechanism in the brain chemically to protect ourselves from going insane imagining our own demise.
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Certainly, there are weird things that happen in life where you can feel "guided" spiritually by something unexplainable. Of course, the possibility exists it was just plain luck. But assuming it wasn't luck, assuming you were guided spiritually, I'm sure you must have been wondering if that was your grandfather's spirit guiding you.
One thing to keep in mind is that the devil and his angels know you very well. Constantly studying your habits, your weaknesses and can impersonate you with incredible accuracy. It's very possible if you were "guided" by your grandfather's spirit that it was a demon. Keep in mind, even the devil can impersonate Jesus or anyone.
Consider the following text. The Devil was able to impersonate Samuel and can impersonate an Angel of light. What this tells us is we can't trust our senses...we need to rely on Gods Word to not be deceived.
1 Samuel 28
11 The woman asked, “Who do you want me to bring up for you?”
Saul answered, “Bring up Samuel.”
12 And it happened—the woman saw Samuel and screamed. She said to Saul, “You tricked me! You are Saul.”
13 The king said to the woman, “Don’t be afraid! What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.[b]”
14 Saul asked, “What does he look like?”
The woman answered, “He looks like an old man wearing a special robe.”
2 Corinthians 11:14
"...For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."
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No, it was the real Samuel. That's why she screamed.
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https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/1-samuel-28/
iv. Some believe that this was a genuine (but strange) appearance of Samuel. This is the best explanation because it is supported by the reaction of the medium, who got more than she bargained for. It is also supported by the truth of what Samuel said (and the text says that Samuel said it). Some may say that it is impossible for Samuel to reappear in some way, coming from the world beyond back to this world. But Moses and Elijah also came from the world beyond back to this world when they appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).
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"The dead themselves do not praise Jah, nor do anyone who falls into silence. But we ourselves will certainly bless Jah from now on and to an indefinite time." Praise Jah! I consider both verses should be shown since we, those who will die with Christ if we will praise Jehovah after we leave with him. @truth-be-told
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Amen, it's our duty while we're alive to spread Gods word and not hold back any knowledge of His truth!
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Death is a complicated issue in the Bible, they speak to us of a final destiny of the soul, a destiny that can be different for some and for others
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ.
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When does judgment happen? At death or when Jesus returns?
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The judgment occurs at the moment of death when we encounter Jesus Christ, when all our acts, words, thoughts and omissions will be uncovered, that is why they tell us about the immediate retribution after the death of each one as a consequence of his works and of your faith. The destiny of the soul will be different for each one of us, according to how we have used our time of life on Earth (paradise, purgatory, hell)
Then another trial will come, that neither Jesus Christ himself knows the day nor the hour in which this event will take place, but only God the Father. So we should not be fooled by people who pretend to know the date of the end of the world. We should not worry about trying to know that date, but only because we are always well prepared, because we do not know when it will happen.
What is clear is that we will have it at the end of time, when Jesus returns to come gloriously to Earth. In it, we will all be judged.
The resurrection of all the dead, "of the righteous and of sinners," will precede the Last Judgment. Those who have done good will be resurrected for life, and those who have done evil will be condemned.
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There are people in heaven that died previously and are there now. That's where saved people go when they die. Not only that, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in heaven that very day. Check this out:
(Matthew 17:1-3 NIV) After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. {2} There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. {3} Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
(Matthew 22:30-32 NIV) At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. {31} But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, {32} 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
(Luke 23:39-43 NIV) One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" {40} But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? {41} We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." {42} Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." {43} Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
(John 8:56 NIV) Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
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Without God the world couldn't stand so many idiots
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Haha, yeah, not a lot of hope without Him :-)
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Excellent article and use of scripture. Now from using your argument and applying it to the trinitarian doctrine is where the problem is. The bible states that Jesus DIED, as in ceased to exist and was then raised on the 3rd day, Jesus had to fully die, if part of him still existed then he did not die. So if Jesus is God then 1 of those 3 persons within the trinity died... which goes against what the trinity states.
What is wrong with Jesus being the promised seed of David who had a divine origin, i.e. born of Mary + God's Holy Spirit, who suffered and died, and was then risen to glory where he is the 2nd most powerful being in the universe (YHVH obviously being the most powerful). This, in my opinion does not go against scripture.
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Jesus never ceased to exist. Jesus existed in heaven before the creation of the world. Here are just a few verses about Jesus being God.
(John 8:56-58 NIV) Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." {57} "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" {58} "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
(John 1:1-18 NIV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {2} He was with God in the beginning. {3} Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. {4} In him was life, and that life was the light of men. {5} The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. {6} There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. {7} He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. {8} He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. {9} The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. {10} He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. {11} He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. {12} Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- {13} children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. {14} The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. {15} John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'" {16} From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. {17} For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. {18} No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
(John 17:4-5 NIV) I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. {5} And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
(Isaiah 9:6-7 NIV) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. {7} Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
(Psalms 72:5-8 NIV) He will endure as long as the sun, as long as the moon, through all generations. {6} He will be like rain falling on a mown field, like showers watering the earth. {7} In his days the righteous will flourish; prosperity will abound till the moon is no more. {8} He will rule from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.
(John 14:8-11 NIV) Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." {9} Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? {10} Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. {11} Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
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So based on your interpretation of those verses how will you interpret 1 corinthians 15:24-28(KJV):
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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