I've lately thought of a new approach to the fact I am anti-communist, and anti-socialist. It is a very simple statement, but I do believe it illustrates a problem with both of them very easily.
To the communist...
"Sure, I'll support your communism as long as I get to be the central planner." I doubt they will like that idea. The question that then arises is what qualifies the people you will make central planner to be the central planner? Are they gods, super beings, with omniscient abilities, and perfect knowledge of all technologies, fields of study, and production chains in real time? Likely they are not. If they claim they are such people then you should get away from them as quickly as possible as they are insane arrogant sociopaths.
To the socialist...
"Sure, I'll support your socialism as long as I'm the one that gets to decide how much food everyone should have, how their education should be done, what kind of health care they should get, and other programs..."
I doubt they will like the idea of me being able to force these things and my beliefs and values upon them. The question then is what makes the other humans so special that they are allowed to do it? How well do they know them? Is it just an appeal to authority fallacy? It seems pretty stupid and naive to me.
That's it... You want someone to be able to dictate the plan? (Communism) Then let me do it. You want someone to be able to dictate what should be done by everyone to help everyone? (Socialism) Then let me do it.
Clue. I think this is idiocy. I don't really want to do it. I also doubt these would be communists and socialists would want me to. Yet, somehow they are okay with certain other humans exactly doing this. Or they are okay with doing it to other people based upon their own limited knowledge.
Just because it SOUNDS GOOD and FEELS EMOTIONALLY GOOD does not mean it IS GOOD. In fact it may be incredibly stupid and naive.
If only we could talk in memes in meet space.
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I blame Steve Jobs for the inability to do this yet.
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Bravo well said Sir @dwinblood ) I totally concur with everything you have stated in this post ! Communism is a failed model of governance 1 Its not me that states it, its History ! the Bolshevik Revolution killed 60 million, Pol Pot in Cambodia no one will ever know as they were all just dumped into the ground without trace ! Socialism is the little brother of Communism, but built on the same phallacy that we should all be equal, except of course the controllers who have the right to decide who eats and who dies !
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You should check out my post yesterday: The Asshole Quotient- it explains what draws people to Socialism/Communism.
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Will do. I didn't check much yesterday to be honest.
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My pride and joy... My own model for political analysis
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Usually they are zombies, if you really were their leader you could "impose" the most libertarian society of all and they would not criticize you, because they usually oppose people, not arguments or actions.
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I think your quick summary of socialism and communism is pretty dismissive and largely misses the point of their ideologies -- essentially that collections of individuals should be the owners of the means of production rather than capitalists. Workers in factories should own, operate, and benefit from the factory -- rather than a single individual who stockpiled capital. I think there are many correlations between these ideologies and Steem (although it's not a perfect comparison by any means) -- which you happen to be thriving in by all metrics.
It's pretty easy to dismiss any different economic system if you boil it down to 10 words you disagree with, especially if they're unrepresentative of the idea to begin with -- the same can be done with capitalism.
"You want whoever has the most money to dictate the plan? Fine, then give me all the money and let me do it".
I think if you look at many organizations that operate in a 'socialist' manner such as worker co-operatives, co-op housing, and many other initiatives in this space, you would find that one of their main ideas is primarily the decentralization of power and authority, and not "dictating what everyone gets and what everyone does".
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Is tax theft?-
If 'yes', cool - we can all agree that every single structure of socialism and communism falls.
If 'no', then I would like to hear your logic...
Socialism CAN and does, work. When the ecosystem is very small, and everybody is known to each other, and personally accountable.
It doesn't scale up.
cheers
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I won't pretend to be an expert by any means -- economics isn't my field of study and neither is social economics or politics. But I think there are plenty of examples of countries with wide social services that help a great many number of people. Canada, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, New Zealand, and more, are strong examples of countries with vast welfare programs that keep their people healthy, happy, and productive.
Poorly envisioned and nefariously executed versions of communism and socialism from the early 1900's aside, I think there are plenty of great examples to draw on, and I fail to understand why so many people say it doesn't scale up. Why is it so hard to imagine a system where some people actively give more than they take in some sectors (imagine a strong healthy young man like myself paying into medicare that I don't really use, while my or a friends grandparents benefit -- or property taxes paying for the roads that bring goods and services to your house). If anything, a system like this is the only kind that has any real chance to scale up, rather than a system based on everyone extracting as much as possible, no?
I would argue that tax is theft if you strongly disagree with where the money is going (for example -- endless wars, churches, corporate bailouts, etc..), but if you're contributing to systems that you believe are important, I would disagree (I won't pretend that I agree strongly with how every dollar of my taxes are spent). I would argue though, that being forced to sell your labour on the "free market" or starve is not a far cry from a new form of slavery though. People, from the day they're born, should be taken care of to a degree where they can contribute effectively.
I think the world would be a better place if a single mother had the opportunity to stay at home, maybe do some art, write a book, make ends meet via social services, supplement the childs education, and teach them about how to be a responsible member of society -- rather than mindlessly flip burgers at one or two different minimum wage paying jobs and funnel the money directly into daycare while some other underpaid employee doesn't do anything much for the child other than make sure they're fed.
Ended up writing a bit more than I had planned while I sip my morning coffee... I'm interested to hear why you think that all taxes are theft. I'm sure there's something I'm not understanding.
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Taking of one persons labor (or assets produced by that labor) - by force or coercion - is theft (with menaces).
It is not a voluntary exchange, it is one of force.
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a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state that is communism as i know
this is educative
thanks for sharing
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Communism also has the public owning all means to production. The problem is that to do this you have to KNOW quotas on what is going to be needed where, how to shift things when an unforeseen things happen, etc. These are all things that markets deal with simply. Without that market though you would need central planning.
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yes that is right....
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it's more that they want to virtue signal, and don't see the real economic consequences of it, wishful thinking is not reality
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Thanks a lot for your valuable post sharing......... i like this post.....
all the best my dear friend.....
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so helpful post
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It is a higher thinking classes blog.There is some people in our social they are really differnt from other.They always try to do something that is good for whole social.
Keep it up
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I believe that the underlying ideas behind communism/socialism are good - everyone contributes as much as he can, everyone get as much as he needs.
Unfortunately, as you more or less pointed out, human race is too greedy for this to function - whatever party you put in charge, there will be high corruption and other abuses of such systems. It is also extremely hard to put good central regulation for everything.
Cheers! : )
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Curated for #informationwar (by @openparadigm)
Relevance:Where are the perfect people we should give absolute power over us?
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you always have the best content
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So if we let people decide what they need then communism is fine then? Same can be said about capitalism, "sure when i am rich i want capitalism but when i am poor then what?"
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Communism FORCES rules upon people. Without capitalism as an economic system also immersed with it then it requires central planning. Capitalism does not require central planning so the comparison is a poor one.
So if you want to force a system upon people that requires central planning to work then I am stating... "Sure, if I get to be the central planner." Why do I state this? Because, I know that the proponents of communism and socialism would NOT want me as a central planner. This implies that they have people in mind that they will imbue with the power to force their planning upon me. I will not accept this.
I actually don't expect you to accept me as the central planner either but if you demand socialism or communism then the only way I'd agree is if I get to be the central planner. :P
You cannot say the same thing about free market capitalism. There is no adequate comparison. The economic system of free market deals with supply/demand and changes innately without requiring a central planner. In fact the WOES people try to push upon it don't actually exist until government becomes involved. At that point it is no longer a free market. If you don't understand the difference then I can't magically make you understand.
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The goal of government is to force rules upon people.
"Without capitalism as an economic system also immersed with it then it requires central planning."
-Can you prove that? Are you absolutely sure that the people that plan stuff can not be elected?
You misunderstood my line about "same can be said". You meant "I will be communist when I get to decide what to produce", then I said "same can be said about capitalism: I will be capitalist only when I am rich".
-Sure capitalism does not require it, it also doesn't produce really good stuff, look at all the stuff that breaks constantly all the junk. The way we use resources under capitalism is ineffective. Well it is very effective in terms of making money for someone.
" Because, I know that the proponents of communism and socialism would NOT want me as a central planner."
-that is just an assumption
"You cannot say the same thing about free market capitalism."
-Where is such free market? Every country has laws anti-monopoly services, sanctions and other stuff that control market.
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Such places have existed only briefly in time. For you are correct. Government likes to force laws upon people. I will tell you those brief times in history have been some of the most productive and innovative times in history.
Oh and as to monopoly.
Communism and Socialism are the ultimate forms of monopoly. :)
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Yes but it is not a private monopoly.
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Yeah, and in practice it actually ends up being worse. You also say that like I think "private" is bad. I don't.
I do believe I have the rights to the means of production if I develop that means, devise it, and put my own time in. I can then ask people if they are willing to contract to operate part of that for me. We can negotiate that contract. Yet I cannot force them to take it. If they think it is their only choice then they likely are looking at life in a very limited perspective. It's not like I have them in a cage which the only way out of the cage is to work for me.
There is an entity that does that. Yet it is not private. ;)
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Well you have no means of production so you have to work for someone that have them, building your own is possible but it would require resources and money, while you are looking for a job to get money. It may not be the only choice but it is limited, people used to work for 12 hours a day was it their choice?
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You are very fixated on cherry picking. In a voluntary society I don't HAVE to do anything. I choose to do things. I can also choose to live, or to die. I can choose what I am willing to do for what, and those choices are none of your damn business. If one person and I make a contract that is between me and them and you sticking your nose into it is wrong. It has zero to do with you. Simple. Mind your own business, make your own choices, don't fucking try to make mine.
And yes I am being passionate.
If you and a bunch of people want to build a communist society. Go for it.
Just don't force others to do what you want. You can voluntarily try whatever you want.
As soon as you need to force others to achieve your goals then you are a force of evil.
You want to physically fight over it (Hypothetically speaking to all would be communists, socialists)? Bring it on. I'll die before I become a slave.
Voluntary contracts are not slavery.
Involuntary (aka force) is.
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I do also want to clarify. I acknowledge my bias. That doesn't mean I am close minded. Yet it does mean that unless you tell me something new that I haven't already heard before then I am not going to suddenly change my mind. Right now as far as me and debating this you sound like a broken record and are trotting out the same things I hear time and time again. You haven't recommended a book for me to read yet, so you at least have avoided that cliche.
I read quite a few books people recommended and it was their logical fallacy laden appeal to emotion approach in the books that often quickly lead to my seriously considering the person in the book as an "authority" ending. Yet, I still read.
So am I open minded? Yep. Yet that doesn't mean repeating the same things over and over is going to suddenly change my mind. So far you are repeating the same "drivel" (my opinion) that I've had stated to me many times. :)
I didn't consider it drivel initially. In fact, my parents are both hippies. I grew up under "Peace, Love, and Flower Power". So the SOUND GOOD, FEEL GOOD ideas inherent in the presentation of communism and socialism were appealing to me when I was very young.
I like to think. I argue with myself regularly. Have conversations, debate, etc.
I study history. I make mistakes. I am often wrong.
Yet, repetition and quantity of people telling me a thing are not logical reasons to support something.
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