It's hard to say how much meddling we have done with their power grid but Maduro/socialism has been making everyone there skinny for a while.
RE: Regime Change Amping Up in Venezuela, with Guaido's 'Tactical Action' and Engineered Power Blackouts
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Regime Change Amping Up in Venezuela, with Guaido's 'Tactical Action' and Engineered Power Blackouts
Too bad that Norway, Sweden, Denmark, China, Singapore, and a whole bunch of other countries like NZ don't suffer from socialism 🤔.
It's also odd to note that before Chávez the extreme poverty was more than twice what it is now.
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The model of these countries has no similarity with Venezuela.
False. The current poverty of Venezuela from 4 years until now, is higher than before Chávez will take power. On the other hand, it is worth mentioning that during the Chávez government poverty decreased, but it was due more to the increase in the price of oil than to anything else.
Expropriate companies, establish price controls, pay state deficits by issuing money, establish monetary control, steal money destined to build public works without finishing any, it is not a good system. It is worth mentioning that the hydroelectric plant was built by the socialist governments prior to Chávez, because Venezuela has been a socialist since 1958, not since Chávez arrived, and the one that nationalized the oil was the same party that built the hydroelectric power station, but Chávez and Maduro likes to call neoliberals.
lol is simply funny, every new socialist likes to say that he was the first, the true socialist, that the others were not. When Chávez came to power there was poverty, but the main reason for that is that the oil-socialist model had failed when oil prices fell, just as now.
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Actually it's not higher than that and a Harvard study demonstrates that it wasn't just because of oil prices at all. Also those socialist countries do have a lot in common with Venezuelan policies, the only difference is corruption.
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Indeed, it was not only the price of oil, it was the poor management of the trillion dollars that the government received between 2004 and 2013 from oil revenues. For the rest, I doubt very much that any of the countries that you said hold public spending almost exclusively from a single resource, in this case oil.
All public companies were losing money and were being subsidized by the oil industry, in addition to the subsidy for gasoline for citizens, schools, all government bureaucracy and public works, all paid with money from oil exports, mostly sold in the United States. Do you know what happened?
PDVSA, the oil company, had 30,000 employees and grew to have 150,000, and then lowered oil production from 3 million barrels per day to 1 million (Not to mention that Chávez dismissed 17,000 employees from the company who had the highest technical training, which affected the company's operations), and the majority sold it with future contracts to China, so part of the little oil that is produced today, China takes it because they paid it years ago. Not to mention that the government was indebted for several years, so it has to pay interest to Goldman Sachs and others.
What happened to the government was quite basic, it is known as a Dutch disease, it also happened to the previous government. Although the corruption was very high too.
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Dutch disease isn't what happened to the government at all. Dutch disease happened to the public, to the people, to the economy. The first time it happened was before socialism, when the oil was in private hands and the wealth almost entirely siphoned into Spain and the old Conquistador blood.
I said that a Harvard study concluded quite differently than "the government got lucky with the oil price boom" which you simply repeated as if it has any validity, it does not.
Also, the extreme poverty and overall poverty is still not worse than before Chávez, not only that, because of his social programs the amount of university graduates tripled. More so, there has been, like the article you wandered into to disregard that socialism works (in Canada as well) and it wasn't socialism that caused the socioeconomic crisis in Venezuela, plenty of evidence and indication that the crisis was and continues to be driven directly by the NGO and extreme right wing terrorism that has killed more people than the Venezuelan national guard or police that gets routinely blamed for excessive force, as if any free country would put up with such violence and still try to compromise and have a dialogue with these "rebels". This has been along the same line of operation as what is pointe in the article above, and history shows that the US tried not once or twice but numerous times in the last 20 years to take out the Venezuelan leadership. The last pro government rally eclipsed any and all rallies the so called rebels mustered.
You can accuse Chavez of corruption or Maduro but you have no lick of evidence to support your accusations, and generalities about millions being stolen aren't any kind of proof, only hearsay at best. Equally you can simplify the issue into "the government" lowered oil production after firing the most competent employee as if nothing needs to preface those simplifications even, which is why it's irrelevant/inconsequential. The corruption is not at the head, but at the limbs and digits, and this has been proven again and again over there.
What is happening in Venezuela is what has happened in other Latin America Countries as per Economic Hitman details. NGO's sow dissent and rebellion, arming individuals with AT4 Launchers, Grenades and C4, among the pick of small arms and vehicles, and plenty of pocket change. At the same time anyone with ties to the US pressure is brought to either export goods which are needed domestically, or cease production, and at the same time impose sanctions and economic consequences / conditions for anyone who does not obey. This has been detailed in numerous cases in Latin America, and the imperialistic parasite has not bother to hide that with Venezuela at all.
Venezuela has give the entire Latin American world the chance to escape the 100 plus years of American Imperialism, and it only happened because of Chavez.
Corruption is a problem but the crisis is not because of corruption. Socialism is exactly what Canada, NZ, Netherlands, Sweden, Ireland, Norway, Finland, China, Singapore, Belgium, and a handful of other countries have had, some for 60 or more years without a crisis like Venezuela. The public /private ownership ratio is comparable in Venezuela to that in the United States if you take into account the government interest through subsidies in so called "private sector".
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No, those countries aren't socialists, far from it. Even China stopped being a real socialist country after Mao's revolutions.
I already shared this link but I will do it again, https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
Check the economic freedom index and you will see those countries have a lot of it.
I think it would clear things up if you could share your own definition of socialism, can you define socialism?
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Yes, socialism is the state ownership or control over fundamental sectors of society, such as health, education and utilities.
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Yes, so? did you check the economic freedom of those countries in the index I shared?
State ownership is computed into those rankings, stop calling those countries socialist because they are simple not socialist, they have free market capitalism.
China is different though, but still, they stopped supporting those obsolete ideas after Mao's revolution ended.
Can you share data that can justify why do you think those countries are socialists?
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Also, private company ownership increased during Chavez and after.
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It is probable, the GDP went from 80,000 million to 400,000 with the rise of oil, so the private industry grew despite the fact that the government nationalized the most important bank, the telecommunications industry, supermarkets, and other things, but yes, sure that the private parasite sector that feeds on the State grew during his government.
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No just corruption, but economic freedom (free market capitalism) https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
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There is still as much economic freedom in Venezuela as in those other countries. Heritage has had no problem with putting Dictators and Despots among their "free" countries.
[Rwanda] (https://www.blackagendareport.com/rwanda-kagame-elected-dictator-life)
Qatar
And a country as corrupt and in violation of human rights as Philippines, probably the most corrupt government in the world, is "moderately free".
It figures as this is a DC think tank who wanted the president to be a dictator more or less:
https://www.alternet.org/2012/11/what-i-learned-conservative-think-tank-propaganda-now-facts-later/
Lol sure, what dictator isn't democratically elected in transparent and internationally verified elections and treats terrorists rebels with concessions and offers for dialogue which are refused as the elite very wealthy instigators want to burn people and buildings because they know that the overwhelming majority dominate the elections/votes.
The last pro government rally eclipsed any and all "student" protests they had.
The lies heritage.org spew are clear as day to anyone with two brain cells to rub together.
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hahahahahahaha you are funny, keep drinking the socialist kool aid man
It is amazing that even after discussing with Venezuelans you still keep believing your fantasies, I guess that happens when a person is indoctrinated.
Which lies? Give examples and proof.
The Fraser Institute has a similar index:
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/economic-freedom-of-the-world-2018.pdf
Economic freedom breeds prosperity, and socialism destroys it.
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So tell me if I discussed something with a fellow American, that automatically means that what they say is educated, researched and otherwise informed?
You speak about drinking the coolaid but you had absolutely nothing of substance to add to the conversation, only bullshit rhetoric from warmongering Think Tank that you weren't even a little bit concerned about sharing, you probably think that the narrative they have for Venezuela is correct. Let me tell you, I don't have to LIVE somewhere to find information from independent sources that bother to do the legwork and report in an unbiased manner. You drink up anything that cronyism mixes up, without batting an eyelash. I pointed out how your source has no qualification to open their garbage trap about Freedom when they advertise Despots and Dictatorships as Free and all you can do is give another mouthpiece of Exon and Koch Brothers. Critical you are not.
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you call independent anything that defends socialism or maduro, yes, you like to drink the kool aid.
Either way, you will never change your opinion so as I said before, there is no point in wasting time with an indoctrinated person.
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Do you know who funds the heritage foundation?
The very same interests who stand to profit the most from regime change in Venezuela.
Oh and guess who's a frequent speaker at The Heritage Foundation?
Our friend John Bolton, you know the war monger National Security Advisor who cheered on the invasion of Iraq and who still believes that it was a success! Now is hell bent on intervention in Venezuela - same guy.
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What about the Fraser Institute? They also have a very similar index.
No one is saying that there aren't interests regarding the Venezuelan situation, what you seem to deliberately ignore, is that the most sinister interests are from the maduro regime and their supporters.
What about the Venezuelan people? Do you think they are enjoying the "benefits" of having the maduro regime controlling the oil and the entire country?
How do you think the Venezuelan situation can be fixed?
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A regime that allows protesters to shut down cities. Makes sense.
A regime that was elected in transparent and internationally verified elections by an overwhelming majority. Makes, sense.
A regime that barely has a media presence in it's own country, where 90% of the media is privately owned AND against the "regime" and they regularly lie, and stage shit that the routine is hilarious.
A regime that has decreased extreme poverty and overall poverty and tripled the university graduates. Makes sense.
A regime that has hundreds of thousands of supporters at the last rally. Makes sense.
A regime that has to this day still made concession for violent protestors and even pardoned some for the coup attempt in '03. Makes sense.
Where is the proof of your alleged "most sinister interests" regarding the so called "regime". On that note, what qual do you use to distinguish the democratically elected President as a Regime?
Where is the proof that Maduro controls the entire county, when 70% of businesses are in the private sector?
How do YOU think the 'situation' can be fixed?
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I disagree, all of those places are socialist hell holes. You really think China doesn't suck? Most of the anarchists I talk to are in Norway and Denmark, they think no government at all would be better than the socialist governments with confiscatory tax rates that oppress their spirits. In New Zealand they lock you up for 15 years if you share a video that some find offensive, that's not suffering?
And what was the malnutrition rate before and now?
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Compared to America? No it doesn't suck, that is why people move there anyway.
Yeah Anarchists whine about taxes as if they aren't comparable to the rest of the world..
People get locked up for longer and for less over here too.
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China sucks compared to America no matter how you slice it, bad air, no freedom, do you really think more Americans are moving to China than Chinese people coming to America?
in a year!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/09/15/slowly-americans-moving-to-china/#416887497e53
Vs the million visas that America issued in the same year.
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Yeah
About that
https://matadornetwork.com/pulse/half-american-millennials-say-theyd-consider-leaving-us-heres-ive-already-left/
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they say a lot of things they don't do huh? note she didn't move to China or any of the countries on your list.
A lot more South Africans move here than Americans move there.
https://businesstech.co.za/news/government/131802/this-is-who-is-emigrating-from-south-africa-and-where-they-are-going/
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And? You ignored the fact that half of millennials don't want to stay in America?
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Yeah, they were all going to move to Canada if Trump won too, how many did?
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I wouldn't recommend waste your time with baah, he is either a troll or an indoctrinated socialist.
In one comment he says " socialism is the state ownership or control over fundamental sectors of society, such as health, education and utilities." https://steemit.com/deepdives/@baah/baah-re-dedicatedguy-re-baah-baah-re-vieira-re-baah-baah-re-vieira-re-baah-baah-re-funbobby51-re-krnel-regime-change-amping-up-in-venezuela-with-guaido-s-tactical-action-and-engineered-power-blackouts-20190330t025540896z
And then he says "socialism does not mean the state owns or controls the economy" https://steemit.com/deepdives/@baah/baah-re-dedicatedguy-re-baah-baah-re-funbobby51-re-krnel-regime-change-amping-up-in-venezuela-with-guaido-s-tactical-action-and-engineered-power-blackouts-20190330t022542110z
LMAO
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I concur, one of these probably
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Yes, socialism isn't Totalitarianism like you so quickly slippery sloped from socialism to. Socialism us not complete control of the economy or private enterprise.
Socialism is an extensive welfare, educational, health care, housing and other necessities required for a dignified existence, own and controlled by the state through taxes.
What are you ridiculing exactly? That you think control over basic necessities for a dignified existence is control over the economy? That you cannot have free enterprise and socialism? Ridiculous.
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Yeah, those aren't socialist countries. China's government has a lot of control, but they allow productivity to go on and private investment to continue doing business.
About the rest of the countries, just have a look at the following index https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking and check their positions
Economic freedom is what allows countries to become prosperous, and socialism destroys economic freedom.
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Hardly, socialism and economic freedom go hand in hand, socialism does not mean the state owns or controls the economy. It means that there are a lot of programs that are paid for the public, like Education, Healthcare and Welfare for the disadvantaged, disabled or unemployed.
All those countries are socialist, like Venezuela, and like Venezuela the state runs numerous business, but that doesn't mean it's against free market, that's why in Venezuela since Chavez the private sector has grown.
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How wrong can you be? socialism is state control, which ends up in totalitarianism, how can that be freedom?
You are also contradicting yourself, in this comment you shared the proper definition of socialism, which involves control, you said it yourself and now you are saying the opposite.
https://steemit.com/deepdives/@baah/baah-re-dedicatedguy-re-baah-baah-re-vieira-re-baah-baah-re-vieira-re-baah-baah-re-funbobby51-re-krnel-regime-change-amping-up-in-venezuela-with-guaido-s-tactical-action-and-engineered-power-blackouts-20190330t025540896z
You are a very funny guy ^^
Show the statistics, Chavez destroyed the private sector...
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They're everywhere for you to find. Under Chavez the private sector grew.
State control is a meaningless term. Come again, maybe next time bring some Brookings Institute crapola to preach about freedom, last I checked 73% of dictatorships are supplied with weapons by the United States Government. You won't know freedom if it hit you on the side of your face.
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I am still waiting for your statistics, back your claims, or simply don't make any claim you can't back.
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http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog/venezuelan-economic-and-social-performance-under-hugo-chavez-in-graphs
Literally gave you the exact, specific reference that you could have easily searched for.
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2013? Dude we are in 2019.
Please share the current statistics, this should be obvious, but apparently not for you.
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According to figures provided by Chavez?
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You can ridicule what you haven't even bothered to investigate but it's petty and inconsequential in terms of actually bothering to investigate or to ask a serious question.
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just a question, was that a "yes"?
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It's not "only" or "just" a question. The premise of the question is what I challenged, as you used the contemporary Complex Question fallacy, where you demand a yes or no answer to a question who's premise is loaded with implications that when they are unpacked say much more about your perspective and interest in the answer than anything else, and if anyone is foolhardy enough to answer either yes or no they are giving your question validity. Your question has no validity, it has no interest in discussing only in accusations, it has no context or frame of reference outside the accusations. You don't want to talk about what I said, you only want to take potshots at a deceased man, if you want to understand what I was saying about there are numerous questions that ask for substance and not the triviality of yes/no dead-end.
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So is that a "yes" or a "no"?
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So you're still resorting to the same moot point
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Without Chávez America would still have a choke hold on Latin America. Independence is nothing scoff worthy.
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Gosh, that would be terrible if America had a chokehold on them, then they wouldn't be starving.
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America did, when extreme poverty was rampant in Venezuela nobody cared.
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When was that exactly?
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Right before Chávez I'm 99 and when the Venezuelan oligarchy executed upward of a thousand people a decade before and threw them in mass graves to hide their crime no one said anything.
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Yeah, it could be all just happening because of a more flawed social model, like political socialism. But I also think that acts of sabotage are not too hard to pull off, and the timing of it all is suspicious. Why not happen months ago? It's happening right now when it's required to push a political goal.
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It had happened before, the electric power goes away frequently, only this is the first time that happens in the whole country at the same time, that's the curious. In my personal experience, I only have water service 4 days a week (right now I have 5 days without water coming to my house.), and the electric power fails at least 3 times a month, that's the common thing. This is true at least for several years, 2 or 3, and I think that in 2012 a similar problem also occurred.
There is simply no way to know the truth about the matter. It could have been a sabotage, it is possible, as could also be the same problems that the government has always had with the administration of public companies. Personally I would not bow for one or the other position.
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With all the people who have fled one imagines that there are not enough water technicians or electrical lineman to maintain complex systems like power or water grids, could that be it?
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Yes, many skilled workers leave, a friend, works in the oil industry, is a telecommunications engineer, is now in the United States (legally), and is working cleaning a gym, earns much more than here. And you want me to tell you something? He is still on the oil company's payroll, so he did not resign, he was not fired, he only asked permission to go to the United States to work for a few months, he has one year there. (It's not the only case) Imagine a company that pays thousands of wages to people who are not even working, who are dead, or who were laid off years ago, that's the kind of administration that the government has in public companies.
There are people who work for the government, in political positions, that is, members of the party, but receive their salary from public companies. And then those companies are subsidized by the money of the oil company.
Did the professionals in the country leave? Yes, and a lot, but even if they did not leave, there would still be many problems, sometimes something is damaged in some factory, or somewhere, and the spare part must be imported from the United States or Germany or some other place, and unless that is something very serious, I mean something that could provoke protests from very large segments in the country, the government does not do anything, or simply does something like take the light bulb from a room and put it in the bathroom, and then in the room again, again and again until the bulb is damaged, then, take a bulb from another place and continue, so until each bulb damages.
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Sounds like a nightmare. what's going to happen next?
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Unless a genuine political movement originates, far from the current political caste represented by Chavism and opposition, the most logical thing is that Venezuela becomes the continental version of Cuba.
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There are cruises going to Cuba now so that might be an improvement.
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lol
I recently saw videos on YouTube of some tourists in Cuba, and I discovered that the average Cuban in Havana was making more money than the average Venezuelan.
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Do you want the maduro regime to continue ruling in Venezuela? Because America is probably the only power that can kick them out.
Have you ever written posts criticizing socialists totalitarians? Because I have noticed people from deepdives tend to support this type of totalitarians, which is a real shame.
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Fair enough. So American puppets do things better? No puppet totalitarian regimes put up after? ;)
I've criticized political socialism in the past. It's a good idea to do a @deepdives on that topic. I can see how the lack of criticism of socialism in #deepdives would make one think it supports socialism. This is only the second time a specific topics has been put out. All other times people choose their topics.
Maybe @v4vapid can choose to do the next one on socialism related topic?
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As per the original Deep Dives 12 announcement post:
The aims of @deepdives is to do research and anyone who wants to make a case for interventionism, military, humanitarian or otherwise is completely at liberty to do so.
The purpose of this post is not to condemn or condone a political ideology - capitalism, socialism, etc. - the goal of the challenge is to present a case of regime change. If there are examples of socialist regime change - the soviet invasion of eastern European nations or even Afghanistan comes to mind - then people are welcome to do a deep dive on any case they like.
https://steempeak.com/deepdives/@deepdives/deep-dives-12-or-coups-regime-change-and-interventionism
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Indeed. It's up to the author to choose what they want to write about. I guess I was suggesting a specific one for socialism as a way to allay the perception that some people like @dedicatedguy have ;) He could join a DD and write about the misdeeds of the political socialist regimes. USSR is a good example for the regime change topic.
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Do you think Panama or South Korea became worst countries after the American intervention that freed them from socialism?
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Hi @dedicatedguy,
Your assertion that "people from deepdives tend to support this type of totalitarians" is false. My own post for this #deepdives challenge explored the historical events in Chile where a the US undermined the democratically elected Allende and supported the coup and dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet.
Where you come to the conclusion that anyone associated with @deepdives supports socialist totalitarian regimes is puzzling. I despise dictatorships. And anyone who is familiar with my writing can see that clearly.
Allende may have been a socialist but he was democratically elected by the people of Chile.
You consistently present a false dichotomy.
Opposing interventionism does not equate support for totalitarianism.
Please stop with this simplistic - either/or explanation of a complex issue and diverse array of opinion.
As pointed out in the comments: @deepdives welcomes investigation of any sort of regime change. Anyone is welcome to make a post of a socialist totalitarian intervention. No one is stopping you, for example, from making such a post.
People are free to post whatever they want.
It's even encouraged in the original Deep Dives 12 post if you took the time to read it.
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I am still waiting for you answer in this comment https://steemit.com/dtube/@dedicatedguy/re-v4vapid-re-dedicatedguy-re-v4vapid-v4vapid-re-dbroze-lpvm1cgt-20190224t120246466z
I only see posts from deepdives criticizing nations and people that are against socialist totalitarians, while also defending these totalitarians. I have never seen a deepdives post criticizing socialist totalitarians, if there is one, then please share the link.
Venezuela is intervened by Cubans, any post about that?
Any post about any socialist intervention throughout history?
Facts don't agree with that, I have only see you upvoting and resteeming posts from people defending socialist totalitarians, never criticizing them.
But either way, feel free to disagree with me, by the way, I am Venezuelan myself and so is Vieira, I invite you to read his comments on this post.
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I don't know but it's hard to maintain a power grid when 10% or more of your population leaves, more than 3 million have fled. That's 10% fewer (probably more as professional people can leave at higher rates) electrical engineers and linemen and such but you need the same amount of trained people to maintain it. I haven't been following everything or talking to my Venezuelan recently but that incident where they claimed the protestors torched the aid convoy seemed like an obvious case of agent provocateur unless it has been proven otherwise.
The only person I trust for the real story is someone like @bigdude who actually lives there.
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The video (from blumberg) shows the 'rebels' with molotov cocktails on one side of the bridge (Columbia) and you can clearly see a molotov flying and lightning up the truck. The same 'rebels' burned and lynched a few black Venezuelans and killed many others, burned all kinds of government buildings and shot people trying to take down their roadblocks.
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What would you have expected agent provocateur to do?
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Are you seriously saying that the Venezuelan Government was responsible for the burning of the "aid"?
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Are you suggesting that the starving people torched the aid? Agent provocateur are a first line of defense governments use to break up protests, not a last resort.
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Are you suggesting that the terrorists who have decapitated motorcyclists, burned and lynched black Venezuelans and numerous others while also burning and buildings such as hospitals are agent provocateurs OR starving people? You do realize that no free world government would put up with the barricading of cities and the violent protests at all, let alone a dictator.
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More than likely. I realize that, somehow you don't. I realize that all free world governments employ agent provocateur as a first line of defense against protestors, even Canada, so of course a dictator will employ them. They use them because they work and you seem to have fallen for it.
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