Defend Yourself Against @GrumpyCat

michaeldavid (65) · 7 years ago

This makes a lot of sense. Also remember that grumpy buys votes himself. Not buying votes is unfortunately not a sure fire way to not get down voted. He seems much more concerned with late voting.

It's definitely his right to self vote, however that was the last big fight here and now it's perfectly acceptable so what's next? Hell transisto even used to run a bot that down voted self votes and people applauded it.

The one thing that has caused so much of an uproar with grumpy is an obvious whale intentionally hurting minnows. No matter the reason that looks bad anywhere. It makes smaller fish really scared to be here also. This platform cannot thrive on fear.

Themarkymark has a great point, most large whales did not get there by powering up earnings, many of them simply mined their coin or bought it ridiculously cheap.

Powering up is very important but for some its simply a luxury. Also, If people would rather make trouble and drama then work together then the long term of steemit won't matter anyway. Who in their right mind would want to join/stay on a platform claiming freedom and decentralization that is clearly dictated monarchy and economic social hierarchy?

In a system entirely based on currency it is crazy to think that people won't try to find creative ways to make it.

If steemit creators are actually behind grumpy these tactics are even more unwarranted. If people like @Dan or other creators would have come with a proposal or even a rule for that matter they would've gotten a much better and more positive response from basically anyone here. Hell they created the place, why wouldn't people listen to them?

The senseless harming of innocent small fish is simply not required.

Ever since I came here people have been bitching about other people doing this or that wrong... saying that this or that will ruin steemit if not kept in check...

The only way to keep slaves when you are vastly out numbered by them is to keep them arguing and fighting each other.

The only thing that will surely ruin steemit the way it has ruined basically every nation and almost any good thing on this planet is intolerance. Working together is the only way to ensure steemits long term future.

$0.13

3 votes

grumpycat (70) · 7 years ago (edited)

Also remember that grumpy buys votes himself.

Interesting, I brought votes twice to make sure my two public service announcements were seen by as many people as possible.

I guess I'll forever regret it.

The one thing that has caused so much of an uproar with grumpy is an obvious whale intentionally hurting minnows.

This has nothing to do with whale vs minnows. I'm even sad to say I've been discriminating against "whales" by hitting them stronger.

$48.72

9 votes

r351574nc3 (72) · 7 years ago

Interesting, I brought votes twice to make sure my two public service announcements were seen by as many people as possible.

Yeah. Horrible idea.

Anyone that read it thought
- It was a joke
- Too noob to understand what you were ranting about
A lot of people still didn't read it.

In the end, it was brought on by the same mentality as 6th day votes. You wanted change to come too soon instead of taking more time and spreading around information longer, you were in a hurry and needed change to happen too soon. Just like people that use the 6th day bots. No matter what, in the end, you're just another one of them.

$0.11

3 votes

the-resistance (47) · 7 years ago

We want to resist you without losing our respect...But if you lie, we will no longer be able to respect you.
A simple analysis of blockchain gives with how much you hit minnows and how much you hit whales.

steem.api.getAccountHistory('grumpycat', -1, 10000, function(err,result) {
console.log(result.length);
for (let i = 0; i < result.length; i++) {
if ((result[i][1].op[0] == 'vote')&&(result[i][1].op[1].voter='grumpycat')&&(result[i][1].op[1].weight<0)&&(result[i][1].op[1].author !='grumpycat')) {
console.log(result[i][1].op[1].voter,result[i][1].op[1].author,result[i][1].op[1].weight,result[i][1].timestamp);
}
}
});

Anyone who codes this script can see that you have hit the minnows much more than whales.
Unlike politics, there are no lies in the blockchain.

grumpycat (70) · 7 years ago

Why would I flag minnows more than whales?

I gave no fuck to check account size before flagging.

$100.06

14 votes

the-resistance (47) · 7 years ago

This is the @GrumpyCat we know and resist.
A bully, a tyrannt that doesn't give a fuck who he is hurting.

We were afraid that you have started a false PR by saying :

We don't want you to present yourself like a kind of Robin-Hood, hitting "whales" harder and stripping them to the reward pool for all peoples benefit.
Because this is not you...

@the-resistance

$0.00

grumpycat (70) · 7 years ago (edited)

I was responding to

grumpy is an obvious whale intentionally hurting minnows.

$91.79

14 votes

the-resistance (47) · 7 years ago

OK, you don't care about who you downvote but let me show you a mirror.

Since you have started you have made a total downvote of -6334%
Your current strength is 50 SBD for 100% downvote. It was x2 at the beginning, so I take average of 75 SBD.

This means you stripped 75 x 63,34 =4750,5 SBD from earned rewards.

The worst part is, you have used 5619% of your downvote power on minnows.

You have stolen 4214,25 SBD from minnows.

This is 89% of your total downvotes.

Now, do you see why we call you a bully and We Resist?

@The-Resistance

$0.00

grumpycat (70) · 7 years ago

Conclusion: More minnows than whales use shit-ass bidbots.

michaeldavid (65) · 7 years ago

Nice numbers.

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imjustsaying (50) · 7 years ago

I personally wish that there were no upvote bots. The way I look at it is, it double or triple gouges the reward pool. I personally don't use them, because a for mentioned reason. I understand why people do use them, and I have no ill will against them. I just wish that they didn't exist.

I'm to new to know all the ins and outs of all of this so I try not to take sides. Please try to be careful when down voting people. :) Also please don't hate me for commenting this. I do believe that you are doing what you feel is best. Have a lovely day.

$0.00

r351574nc3 (72) · 7 years ago (edited)

I personally wish that there were no upvote bots. The way I look at it is, it double or triple gouges the reward pool. I personally don't use them, because a for mentioned reason. I understand why people do use them, and I have no ill will against them. I just wish that they didn't exist.

Another way to look at it is that whales are going to claim the most from the reward pool no matter what. Voting bots are a way that they allow minnows access to what they normally wouldn't. 2 years ago, the reward pool was available to everyone one. There weren't whales yet, so it was more open. Now that there are whales, they claim the most. Also, there's inflation on top of that. Minnows don't have a chance at the reward pool. Bots allow the the chance people had 2 years ago. Here's another way to look at it

Whale A and whale B could just self-vote and take money from the pool that way. Instead, they delegate SP to a voting bot and minnows are allowed access to it. Further, the voting bot is backed by a community of curators that blacklist bad content and promote good content the way whales A and B wouldn't have before. Which do you think is better now? Bots or no bots?

Without bots it's just self-voting whales like @grumpycat abusing the pool. With bots, we have some people allowing minnows access to the pool and curation communities.

You could say, why not the whales build curation communities? Do you see @grumpycat building any communities? LOL

$0.02

imjustsaying (50) · 7 years ago

I just did a post on this subject Here. If you are interested in my thoughts on the matter it would cover much more than I am able to write now. Sadly It took me two nights to complete it. Because I kept getting distracted with comments lol. :)

I see your point but I just disagree, the cost to the reward pool is far to high, leaving little for everyone else. Have a read and let me know what you think on it, or don't. Either way have a lovely day. It's one in the morning here and I've just spent the last few hours completing it.

$0.00

r351574nc3 (72) · 7 years ago

Right. Inflation is a factor. However, rewards were more available 2 years ago. That's a fact. Inflation + whales may impact why rewards are so low right now; however, bots do return awards comparable to what people were getting 2 years ago. That's also a fact.

Regardless of why rewards are low, bots aren't the problem. They bring rewards back to users. You can call it pay-to-play, but it's the same as what happens in any economy. Early-adopters become the big winners and they grow large. There are a lot of examples in history of this happening. They can hoard it making things worse (classism) or they can recirculate.

Just consider what things would be like without bots for a second. Suppose all the bots were gone tomorrow. Do you think everyone suddenly has more of the reward pool? Nope. The whales still have it. Here's what changes.

A lot more spam. Why? The number of unsolicitated memos will sky-rocket asking for whales to please look at their posts and bless them with a vote. We have this now, but this is essentially what bidding is. It doesn't go away, just the bots.
Whales will suddenly start writing a ridiculous number of posts complaining about why the spam is so bad.
Whales will start retaliating (there's no blacklist now). All they can do is downvote.
Tons of minnow backlash against whales for downvote histeria
People start leaving the system because minnows can't get votes, still not making money, constantly downvoted by whales.
Other spam and trash posts go up because the number of curators has gone down. Not only do they go down, but minnows are now forced emphasize quantity over quality because the curators are gone.
Whales live in elysium above the trashy lives of minnows in a land where they self-vote. Some may curate minnows, but in general, they resent the spamming minnow population.

imjustsaying (50) · 7 years ago

Sorry it's late I don't have the time to respond in more detail but here is a quick synapses of my response.

1-Spam sucks, but i don't read it so it doesn't bother me. (If I was a whale that would not change)

2-They can do whatever they want. This would be good because it would give minnows an opportunity to communicate with the whales, the non spammers just might catch their eye and give them some upvotes.

3-Spam should be downvoted.

4-Only spammers would get downvoted, and I would hope that they would leave because I'd rather not have them on the site. Because they are no good spammers.

5-(This is actually what's happening now, because so many spammers and trash posters are buying upvotes.) The spammers need to go, after this it's only trash, poor, moderate, and quality posters left. Trash posters would be the next to go. Once things got so grim that the poor to moderate posters were to begin to leave, the price of steem would begin to fall. Whales accounts would start to shrink. They would begin to panic and start paying people to curate or do it themselves in hopes to not lose their investment.

6- Most of the spam and trash would be gone now and the whales would be forced to either sell of their steem or find human curators. What's the point of self upvotes if the value of Steem in dropping.

7-If the whales have not learned their lesson by now they are not living in elysium, they have lost their entire investment because they allowed the site to go to poo. most would sell off their steem for pennies. Then those of us who want to make a good go at the sight will buy it for next to nothing and we will try to build it back into greatness. If it's not to late.

The way the bots work now the whales get at least 125% of what they auto vote with their SP(through the money people pay and curation). This just allows the system to spam and trash post on. Removing the bots would force them to invest in human curation or risk losing everything. That is why I like human curation, it doesn't reward trash. It's also why I see danger in "Pay to Play." I would rather not have a system that allows the whales to just sit back and make money without putting back into the community. Steemit is what gives Steem value, once it no longer generates value, the crypto is worthless.

$0.00

r351574nc3 (72) · 7 years ago

I don't think you got where I was going with spam and whale downvotes. I meant the whales would downvote anything whether it was spam or not because of the memo spamming.

The way the bots work now the whales get at least 125% of what they auto vote with their SP(through the money people pay and curation). This just allows the system to spam and trash post on. Removing the bots would force them to invest in human curation or risk losing everything.

Yeah, that's not true. The bots actually are responsible for curation communities. Those would go away. You'd actually have less curation because most people would curate solo instead of through a group vetting process. This would lead to less curation, not more.

That is why I like human curation, it doesn't reward trash.
^^ What we have now through bots. Bot maintainers manage blacklists and communities on discord for curating content. Without bots, those would go away.

I would rather not have a system that allows the whales to just sit back and make money without putting back into the community.
Again, this is exactly why bots are valuable because it allows whales to put back into a community.

Without which, whales would just self-vote and "sit back and make money ..."

I think you don't trust what I'm saying, but it's not speculation. A world without bots is what we used to have. I don't have to speculate on what it would be like without bots. Steemit has already been there.

As I said before, bots are a symptom, not a problem. It's simply what has come out naturally from an inflated economy and a reward pool run by whales. If you get rid of bots, it doesn't get rid of the problem. It may get worse because it's the community's answer to the problem.

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Show 1 more reply

r351574nc3 (72) · 7 years ago (edited)

To clarify:

Inflation: there are 2 kinds of inflation.

Inflation from the increase in the amount of shares available reducing their value.
Inflation in the number of users in the system consuming the reward pool.

Both of the above factors affect the amount of rewards users get and has increased over 2 years creating our current economy. That and the whales.

Again, bot's may not be the solution, but they're not the problem either. They're a symptom.

$0.00

imjustsaying (50) · 7 years ago

To Clarify:

My biggest issue is that it would appear that the biggest "winners" of paid auto upvote bots are the owners and SP donators. It just bothers me when people view them as some sort of community service. It's just not. It's about money.

As My original comment stated.

I personally wish that there were no upvote bots. The way I look at it is, it double or triple gouges the reward pool.

When the operators of these machines take in near the value of your upvote and then get curation rewards ontop of it. That results in a double dip, with them getting the larger portion. Plus it's a bit like crack once you have that first taste nothing just seems as good without it. I wish there was a better way for people to get more notoriety and rewards for quality posts, I just personally would rather not give these rich guys any more money.

If others want to, go hard.

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michaeldavid (65) · 7 years ago

In your mind it may not. However that is not what the public sees, or the minnows that you have hurt.

I have seen you going after some whales as of lately. Not sure why that makes you sad but it was nice to see you flagging abusers for a change.

We are working diligently to get the abusers taken care of, especially from using bots. You really should work with us. We've made great strides. With your help we could go even further.

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grumpycat (70) · 7 years ago

The one thing that has caused so much of an uproar with grumpy is an obvious whale intentionally hurting minnows.

At which point did GrumpyCompliance claim to give different treatment to different size of accounts?

$102.86

11 votes

michaeldavid (65) · 7 years ago

Learn to read.

I never said it did. I merely said that you are an obvious whale that is obviously hurting tons of clearly undeserving minnows, which you are definitely doing. No two ways about that.

You created the difference you speak of in your head after taking offense to a statement that upset you. It's easy when you are upset to misread things.

If there is a connection between size of account and your idea of compliance it would likely be that almost all bot users are minnows and/or smaller fish.

If you could get over your anger long enough to actually understand the words people have attempted to speak to/about you, I'm sure many things would become quite clear. Just read the words, without all the spite and hatred.

Stop unnecessarily fighting everyone for gods sake and actually help us help steemit.

$1.65

grumpycat (70) · 7 years ago

You have only yourself to blame for anyone "getting hurt" or "losing money".

Your bot isn't even limited to 6th day, it's 6 day 8 hours with a your bidding window at 2.4 hours that's 6 day 10.4 hours.
Giving anyone on Steem only 13 hours to find and flag the abuse you upvote.

Human curators have to sleep, that gives them about 2h to find and flag your bullshit.

$98.41

11 votes

the-resistance (47) · 7 years ago

WE ARE THE RESISTANCE!

@GrumpyCat

Your self upvote is flagged by The-Resistance team using the WE-RESIST bot.
We will be resisting with a team, stronger each day, unless you stop downvoting innocent people.

To your tyranny WE-RESIST

The Resistance
Discord: https://discord.gg/qMWCbWR

moeknows (60) · 7 years ago

On 28 Feb (the day before @grumpycat made this comment) @grumpycat upvoted himself 9 times for a total of $451.57. In the month of February, he upvoted himself for $22095.89 on 285 posts. A number of these upvotes came after the posts were 3.5 days old. His 9 most recent self-votes were less than 3.5 days old.

I would upvote for visibility, but it kind of makes me feel dirty. Hopefully everybody sees this. :-)

$0.00

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Dan has left steemit long ago and has publicly said it is shit and he will build it better on EOS, so why not fuck it up for everyone?

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michaeldavid (65) · 7 years ago

haha, ya never know I guess.

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geekpowered (69) · 7 years ago

You didn't decline payout. XD

$0.13

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago (edited)

I'm not buying votes or self-voting either, lol

I will if this post get's past $100 send all of the earned SBD earned over $100 to the promote option for five random users who comment below. I will not give it all away because this is a post that is needed for the community as a whole but I will also not rape the pool by accepting anything over that amount.

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geekpowered (69) · 7 years ago

LOL! I was just joking.

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ssatria743 (55) · 7 years ago

posts you can be made in the example for everyone steemit

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sircork (64) · 7 years ago

what?

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sircork (64) · 7 years ago

Ill take your money for the orphans.
@YouAreHOPE will receive promo here if this shit gets real
but i doubt it will

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

I have my own family run charity
http://cureforourfriends.org/
We do our fund raising face to face, I am trying to figure out how to get a few of the cheerleaders or NFL or musicians here who help with every event but lots of community issues need fixed before those people join.

sircork (64) · 7 years ago

LOTS of issues, and it's up to us....

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geekpowered (69) · 7 years ago

Okay, I should make a real reply while I'm waiting for the stupid 30-minute timer to upvote.

I personally dislike using flags to enforce what you personally think, but I understand why they're doing it. People are abusing the system to make money. Buying/selling votes is bad enough, but doing it at the last minute to ensure a larger payout is particularly sneaky. Some of them even actually make good posts, but they're just greedy. They want more and more money and found a loophole to make it.

I'm not going to tell people how to use their votes though. I'm just going to judge a post based on its merits. If it's a shit post, and someone upvoted it to an insane amount, self-vote or not, people should consider flagging it. People should also grow the fuck up and not revenge flag back. Flagging something because you're pissed at the user is fucking childish. But I suppose they too can waste their votes how they wish.

$0.09

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Correct, that is my idea. Each person waste their VP equally rather it is a flag or an upvote. I also don't think users should have to protect the pool which is supposed to reward good content to counter bought votes.

Look at @freedom He has two options, self vote his own post for $2078 each 20 times per day for a total of almost $42,000 per day or rent out his delegation so many others can each other. So he is losing a ton of money daily, say he see's he is letting scammers buy votes with his delegation. Is it smart for a user like him to take a daily loss of money he could give himself as he is not earning $42,000 per day from the vote bot services or fund a project like @grumpy cat to help level the playing field.

People need to wise up and stop bitching they get got when purchasing votes and move the fuck on to the next post and do it without the use of bid-bots.

So the question people should really be asking is, is it better to just post and earn what you earn or make it so there is so much scamming that a user like freedom just rewards himself $42,000 a day and says fuck it this community is about only what they can get and not about what they can give.

$9.48

geekpowered (69) · 7 years ago

That's an interesting way of looking at it. The social pressure is to vote for others though. Preferably minnows.

I say vote for whoever you want, but I'm hoping you'll decide to vote for something worthwhile. I'm not sure I am as trusting as the creators seem to have been, that people would vote for quality content though.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago (edited)

It is pretty funny that the two of us are basically friends and feel the same way about things but do not write on the same topics or find personal quality in the same post that we read.

I am going to tell a true story here about the 1st week I met @geekpowered
He made a pretty long winded post on Python that was very well written and easy to follow all while being very easy to follow. I read it, I didn't give a fuck about Python, found no personal use in the information provided in the post to be used by me personally.
I upvoted it, it was well done, it was informative, he knew his shit and that post in turn could help someone who wished to learn Python. To me that is value, it didn't matter that it was of no use to me personally. Steemit is a platform about sharing with the community.
He wasn't trying to get people to join a group, become a member of some discord channel or sell them some service outside of the steemit platform or become his follower on youtube or twitter. He provided a quality post that was a learning tool for anyone to find during the seven days it could be upvoted or in two years from now.
This is blockchain, this is eternal. Crypto post about pump and dump groups, or what coin did you buy this week or where you ate your lunch are fucking junk. They tend to fill hot and trending and the best advice I can give to any user is, the faster you learn there is no such thing as hot and trending those sections are mislabeled and should be called bought and paid for so people do not get confused on what quality is and what makes a good member of the community.
The hot and trending links at the top of the home page are a real problem for people who do not know that the shit at the top of the list is neither hot, trending or even worth reading 98% of the time.

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geekpowered (69) · 7 years ago

I'm sure there are overlaps in our interests, just not the majority of what I talk about on here so far.

I have wanted to do that python book/series for a long time. Unfortunately I pushed myself too hard, and as a result every time I even think about working on it, I get filled with dread.

I didn't think I was going to make anywhere near that amount on it. I hoped I would make a bit. I came here to make content I want to make, and get paid to do it, without having to deal with an editor, even if it means making less. I didn't really expect to be writing so much fiction though.

I hope I'm adding value. At least at times. Other times I'm just treating it like a social network, and posting fun memes I don't expect to earn anything, but hope people like.

I don't really think about adding value to the platform directly. Neither when I'm posting or when I'm voting. I view this as a type of social network more than some it seems. I think it's alright to post normal thinks occasionally. I even somewhat enjoy making rants. But I don't expect them to earn a lot. Quite a few of them have earned more than I expected.

When I'm voting, I judge based on effort, quality (on multiple levels), enjoyability, etc. I totally upvote some everyday posts, because I do think they're an integral part of here. Blogs started as journals of sorts for many people. Theoretically I can imagine a blog about going to get a coffee and a danish that would totally be worth voting 100% at my old power, but in actuality, many of them are shit. I remember a post that actually made me unfollow someone, where they just took pictures of going to some stupid shot and talking about all the things they liked there. It sounded like a commercial for a random stupid shop. It felt like something anyone could do. There was no unique voice, and nothing of value.

Likewise, crypto posts should teach you the why, not just point out crap in such a perplexing way that even many that trade have trouble figuring out wtf you said.

I support "Hot" and "Trending" being placed in a sub menu, and more advanced algorythms being used. They're making enough, hire some fucking artificial intelligence experts FFS, so we can get recommended posts and whatever other algorythms they can come up with.

$0.09

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Or make a tab called promoted that any post which is paid to move it higher is placed. This needs to be done with post promoted on the steem promote which DESTROYS the SBD to get the post seen as well as with people promoting with SBD that they get back in an bought vote. One is trickery promotion only able to be used by those recycling the same money and those spending their money to be heard because they think their post is worth paying to promote.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago (edited)

I always check this information on steemworld.com when checking out new users to upvote.
Screenshot-2018-2-22 SteemWorld (beta).png

People not up-voting at least 30 members outside of their own comment section DO NOT DESERVE SUPPORT

The above is me, this is what @firedream voting looks like
Screenshot-2018-2-22 SteemWorld (beta)(1).png

So I am not sure who he supports as he replies to all of his own comments

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geekpowered (69) · 7 years ago (edited)

Interesting technique!

I never pay attention to that. I just checked mine.

[ NA ] ( 0.00 % self, 432 upvotes, 260 accounts, last 7d )

XD I'm so proud of myself. I've been worried I haven't been able to get enough time to curate recently. Perhaps it should be a bit more distributed though...I'll have to work on that after I manage to get my vote back up.

BTW, I didn't mean "you" as in literally you. I meant "you" as in the general "you", a random person.

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

LOL, now, I feel like I am short changing users with my crappy votes, lol

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firedream (61) · 7 years ago

It may be because of having no time while trying to work on something i believe more beneficial than giving my tiny upvotes...

FD.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

And there lies the problem, your tiny vote can give hundreds of new users a vote in place of trying to re-reward those buy votes and getting a flag.

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trumpman (72) · 7 years ago (edited)

Short and sweet. Resteemed. You are welcome

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doomsdaychassis (63) · 7 years ago

The last part reminded me of when i was a kid and the monkeys lured my older brother over by the monkey cage, it then reached through the bars and bitch slapped him. i still laugh about it today and never miss the opportunity to bring up the time he got slapped by a monkey. Oh, good times.

wolfhart (63) · 7 years ago

yea ...lol my brother was shirtless and a chimp jump on him rapping his leg around his waist . one hand around his neck. with its free hand flicked his small little nipple. then put his mouth over his nipple and sucked. I can still see his face as he screamed like hell. that chimp was not stopping. we finally got the chimp of him. he then had a Hugh hickie for 2 month. yea good times. I laughing now. I still ask him if he would date a chimp again.

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doomsdaychassis (63) · 7 years ago

Oh my god. Now THAT is hilarious. That is the only chimp hickey i hsve ever heard of.

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wolfhart (63) · 7 years ago

it was not funny at the time. it took several minutes to get that chip to stop sucking. lol He ran around in circles trying to push it away , screaming.
to bad we did not have phones back then. viral ...people and animals funny

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doomsdaychassis (63) · 7 years ago

for some reason this comes to mind every time i read this

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wolfhart (63) · 7 years ago (edited)

ROFL.... yep....that damn chimp wanted some milk....strong sucker
@erodedthoughts he should get a laugh out of this after all it was his post

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doomsdaychassis (63) · 7 years ago

haaaaahaaaaa so @erodedthoughts is you brother and now it is forever saved in the blockchain that he got a hicky on his nipple from a chimp? That is fucking priceless.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

I would up vote that as much as I could if you had it on video, LOL

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doomsdaychassis (63) · 7 years ago

oh god i wish i did. I would play it at his weeding on loop. lol

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sircork (64) · 7 years ago

Someone mentioned weeding was happening here? Fire em up!

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doomsdaychassis (63) · 7 years ago

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wolfhart (63) · 7 years ago

That was direct and to the point. I must say this post was Direct. love the monkey example

ruth-girl (71) · 7 years ago

I used bots in my beginning months ago, but after some deeper thinking and discussions I quit. Like you said it, if more powered up, didn't buy upvotes and didn't drain every last sbd and steem they make here to buy shit they don't really need, things would be a bit better.
Of course the point of view changes when we talk about users from poor countries that see those 5$ upvotes as the money to get them for a whole week. It is so much complicated and I can partially ubderstand those people.
Still, well-said!

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

I have never seen @grumpycat take rewards from a user who boosted their post to a few dollars. He hits the users who send 20, 50, 100 or 150 SBD to rape everyone else causing those who want a little reward to all lose money.

Greed and envy make them buy the votes and then pride and anger make them bitch and whine they lost their reward because they were envious and greedy. I like watching the @grumpycat stuff unfold.

In the end it is also the other users who complain who have never been downvoted because their pride makes them feel the need to be a hero hiding behind the facade of empathy witch is just a fancy word for pride.

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ruth-girl (71) · 7 years ago

And those are the payouts that do the most harm in the first place. I am all for supporting quality and uniqueness, but wanting to make big fat money and rep levels just because you have the money to pay for it makes no difference than the rest of the world out there, where wealth helps the wealthy and some charity is spared for the poor.

It turns out steemit is a great social experiment. And once again what I have always believed fits here: Moral education! Developing an ethics code would solve most of our problems here and in society in general. (Of course this is another loooong topic that worths discussion)

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Yes, it is hard for me to say but I have more respect for @haejin and @ranchorelaxo just supporting each other than the guys who buy votes with $100's of dollars. I wish there was a way to block their rep increase if they purchased votes. That may keep a lot of them from doing it.

I do like the experiment's people do more than anything. I really can't wait to see what happens with the gift box after it leaves my house.

ruth-girl (71) · 7 years ago

If you put it that way, I guess you have a point :P

As for the gift box, I'm itrigued to see how it goes too! :D

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dissfordents (52) · 7 years ago

"It turns out steemit is a great social experiment. And once again what I have always believed fits here: Moral education! Developing an ethics code would solve most of our problems here and in society in general." - This is quotable!

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ruth-girl (71) · 7 years ago

Thank you! ^_^

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insideoutlet (58) · 7 years ago

Stop buying votes and power up!

Power UP and Steem ON!

Motto since day 1!

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Yay! Smart girl says something smart. lol. I think you're the 1st person my wife and I both instantly liked.

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insideoutlet (58) · 7 years ago

haha that is awesome, feelings mutual!

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outtheshellvlog (61) · 7 years ago

I personally prefer to just power up myself =\ The bot owners call it "Advertising" but honestly, I can't see it as such. It's a waste of money if you ask me, it's better to power up and become a whale, than to throw money at a whale to get a post boosted but still end up losing money in the end just to get your narcissism fix.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

LOL, I loved that last bit.

You hit it on the head, power up. There is no such thing as a whale unless they have their money locked into their account by being powered up.

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outtheshellvlog (61) · 7 years ago

They became a whale somehow, and I can promise you it's not by wasting their money to get other people to vote for their posts to get a negative ROI. They became whales by simply reinvesting in their own accounts by powering up as they went along. =\ It's really not that hard to see and the platform is pretty open for anyone that cares to actually research into the whales.

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themarkymark (78) · 7 years ago

Most of the whales became whales when Steem was 7 cents, or even lower and mined it.

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3 votes

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

They also skipped the option to sell it when it spiked. They would not be whales now if they had took that money and ran.

Users who are powered up also gain extra free SP daily for being powered up.

You know I respect you Mark so don't take this as a fight, you know the underlining reason I made this post.

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themarkymark (78) · 7 years ago

I was just explaining how the whales became whales.

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outtheshellvlog (61) · 7 years ago

Eh, unfortunately I don't think you can mine Steem anymore, or am I mistaken?

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themarkymark (78) · 7 years ago

Not anymore, but early on you could. This is how many of the big names became big names.

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outtheshellvlog (61) · 7 years ago

Interesting. Still exceptionally worried about even getting a vote from someone else via a bot though. Just the very idea that this account can be ruined by someone getting bent out of shape is a little much.

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sircork (64) · 7 years ago (edited)

You can be ruined walking down a street by someone bent out of shape.

Rich people have more power than poor people.

Anyone, anywhere can work hard and become rich too.

All of these are true - of Earth... and Steem

Nothing new to see here, in that regard.

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Show 1 more reply

abbak7 (68) · 7 years ago (edited)

So much talk about it, and is all crap talk... Self-Upvote option should not even be possible, should not exist... It's like HI5ing yourself, or like jerking off and calling a FK...
Same with Bots, all kind of explanations and reasoning while is plain simple bribery..
but what do I know...

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

The entire platform is run by the power of the people who have POWERED UP STEEM POWER.

So yes, if all of the youtube losers who got kicked from a platform I have never been censored on since 2007 need to come to steemit and buy votes they can fuck off and go to reddit.

I guess you feel the withdraw option on accrued interest at the bank should also be banned?

I don't see the option to go in the bank and hand the teller $100 out of your pocket and get $125 out of the other users accounts. Makes sense or do I need to dumb it down farther?

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abbak7 (68) · 7 years ago

Please dumb it down farther... because your reasoning is off point

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

What is hard to understand? It's almost 3am so I don't want to waste time typing what you are not asking.

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mawardy (47) · 7 years ago

Hello comrade ... I really agree with the post there. but they want to advance like other people by buying upvote, so that their post is fed by bots. why is that because big fish do not want to eat small fish ... look at all post steemit players original, no upvote by big fish. there is one way to prevent it do not legalkan (robot upvote). let's say the post is not quality, a lot of quality and quality writing to buy upvote machine. except you .

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

The bots got out of control when SBD spiked to $17 last year. That was the exact time you could have bought 17 steem to power up with. 95% took the money and ran, those users are not here for the community or to build their accounts. They are here to take from the entire community they than follow up on youtube showing their high dollar post to lure members here. They 100% of the time NEVER say, I only earned $1.87 of those up-vote I purchased the rest from vote bots.

This is a community and one by one we will weed out those who are here just for the money.

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mawardy (47) · 7 years ago

it is very horrible comrade.

so what is the best solution ..?

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firedream (61) · 7 years ago

@erodedthoughts
You should know very well that a shit-post upvoted with bots have a very small chance to make profit. It is lucky even on break-even.

We are not resisting against self voting of whales.

We are resisting a tyrant in the system that downvotes the fresh posts of innocent people while he has the ability to select the posts to downvote.

If you know something we are missing, you are kindly invited to the discord: https://discord.gg/qMWCbWR
Please come and enlighten us.

FD.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Your opinion of a shit post and my opinion of a shit post can vary. If I had freedoms SP I would erase every crypto post that was published, every youtube video that was embedded into the steem platform as well as many other daily post which are crap in my opinion.

Honest question's to you and you alone.
How much money did you lose by the downvote @grumpycat gave you personally?
How much have you made since then making post about @grumpycat?
Do you owe him money? I think so.

@grumpycat is also not a tyrant. He is a single user casting a single flag each time. There are over 100,000 other users who could counter that one flag if they felt your content deserved to be rewarded. I've looked all your post seem to have purchased votes. Sounds more like you are butt hurt than @grumpycat is a tyrant.

I got 192 flags from the community on a contest I held, I still paid out 200 SBD's which also happened to be the exact day that they went from $1 to $17 each on bittrex. You know what I did? I told the people to go power up their accounts.

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firedream (61) · 7 years ago

I never lost money on @grumpycat downvotes.

I gave money back to @grumpycat innocent victims on his huge upvote on my post I never intended to earn money.
link

I am not "butthurt" at any way.

If you see my posts, I only use bots when my posts are very fresh and with small amounts.

If you also see my amateur utopian projects, I had to do this because I was making projects on bots.

Only the last post I used all my SBD because I want it to be really heard. ( And I lost money on this...no problem)
Bots never gave me enough to cover my payments.I call it R&D expenses.

What gave me money here is mostly my tiny amateur utopian projects.

For me and only me, the only way to earn money here is to do something valuable.
Either a small development, or some insightful post.

I have seen people, with really good heart and good intentions that are victimized by @grumpycat.
Should I close my eyes and pretend not to see?

FD.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

I don't see anyone getting hurt but those who produce content and have a smaller reward pool at the end of the day by those buying votes. You can call it whatever you want. Good content will be rewarded.

Perfect example @rubencress account started at the end of January. Never bought a vote and wow look his work is rewarded. That is quality content. That is quality content to the people with vested steempower. Just because you "think" other people have good content does not mean that those who can reward $5, $10, $30 or $500 per comment do. Everyone can make it on steem it if they put in the work, do their time and interact with the steemit COMMUNITY, NOT DISCORD community. Steemit.chat is the chat of the STEEMIT community. More users should try using the steemit provided channels in place of circle jerk discord channels.

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firedream (61) · 7 years ago

My argument is : "downvoting innocent people with fresh, quality post just because he/she used upvote bots is bullying"

Your counter-argument is : " there are people in steemit succeded without using bots"

Analogy : There are people in life succeded without going to university, so no need for universities.

Unfortunately, because of the current curation system people follow the money not the content.
Yes, good content will be rewarded but first it must get out of the "noise".

For discord, i met it with steemit and i loved it.
What is wrong with using it?

FD.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

If I remember correctly this is the set of scammers who were @grumpycat corrected. You tell me which of these scammers make quality content that was incorrectly down-voted.

Screenshot-2018-2-22 grumpycat.png

I hold two University degree's and work from home using neither, have 10 kids, own my own home and so on. I would think if buying votes was a real thing people needed to do to survive someone with the almost $12,000 in monthly bills like myself would do.

Difference is I am not a lazy fuck trying to live off of steemit when I have bills to pay and a family.

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firedream (61) · 7 years ago

I have a lot of them...

Selected :

An introduce yourself post - fresh upvoted
A very good way to welcome a new user!
A post of @adsactly, a minnow club
Why? no one knows...

There are more of them.

FD.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

You re you naming more scammers? I wanted to know who wasn't a scammer downvoted,

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@smallstepschange
Screenshot-2018-2-22 #Introduceyourself Hi I'm Chris How I turned my life around and how you can too — Steemit.png

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Rep 50 been here months and is a doctor, why would I support him if he does not support steemit by powering up? He sells his power to an upvote bot for money. and he was brought here by a top fucking scammer @jerrybanfield on top of it all. Like I said the assholes who sucked before they got here still fucking suck.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago (edited)

The problem with discord is hidden channels, erased messages and no record of voice chats.

I know I have small whale support, the reason I have it based on when I ask is because I am powering up my account and that means I am here to stay.

New users who buy votes appear to be in it for a money grab. So why would they get rewarded if they are not putting their earnings into the system?

And the fact you miss is the large upvote from the vote bot get's the largest curation reward from the post.

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firedream (61) · 7 years ago

Buying votes doesn't pay.
Check my one and only biggest upvote :
I sent 40 SBD to upvote.
I received something like 85 SBD worth upvote.
%25 is on curation, left is approximately 64 SBD.
Divide by %50
SBD receival : 32 SBD
Steem receival : 32/3,6 -->approximately 8,6 SP

This is almost break-even even a bit loss.
Each user that uses bots gives %25 curation and powers up automatically.
So part of their SBD is turned to SP.

I am not defending bots neither against them.
I made analysis on them for some time.
I see them as an ads system.

I guess people using bots see this also.

Can we think of an other method of curation or promotion?
I guess we can...This is something people are working on.

When a more efficient system is implemented, bot business will finish by itself.

FD.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Delegate power to @ocd, if you want new users to be rewarded and don't care about filling your own pocket

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moeknows (60) · 7 years ago

Write quality post

That has very little to do with it. Vote bots would not be necessary if the trending and/or the hot algorithms actually rewarded quality content. They have proven over time that no matter how many views and upvotes you receive, your only hope at getting noticed is to draw the attention of a whale and/or some dolphins. The vast majority of vote bot users lose, and I agree with your point that they would probably be better off powering up those SBD, but some of them make the investment just to be seen. Those who write quality posts shouldn't have to do that, but they do.

I agree with the idea of whales self voting, but I don't think the algorithm should give their upvote any more worth than minnows when it comes to trending pages.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Do you buy votes? I only ask because I will take a few minutes to go read your blog. Read mine. I do crayon contest, stick figure contest, horrible art contest and so on and I have enough SP earned that I now delegate 2 other users.

The thing is too many people come here and think that their blog on the same topics as 70% of the other users deserve more rewards than that of a user starting off.

If you started a job tomorrow would you expect to instantly make the same as the guy who has been there 6 months?

Greed, envy, lust and pride cause people to not do the work and buy votes in most cases.

I do well because I do my own thing and give a fuck about the rewards. I have a job, this is a social media platform. Just because you "can" make money here doesn't mean you deserve to before you do the work.

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moeknows (60) · 7 years ago

Seldom, but I have. In fact, I recently bought some votes for a post that made $70 according to steemit, but I still lost on that investment. I knew I would when I made it. That is not greed, envy or lust, but may have a little to do with pride. I feel I write quality posts, and I'm always looking to expand my readership. So while I'd rather not have to spend to get noticed, the site kind of requires it.

In that aspect, you can make the argument that whales that sell their upvotes or SP help to even out the playing field. They are not clogging up the trending pages with mediocre posts that push more deserving content further down to the back pages. Of course in a better system, the most deserving posts would rise based on the merit of their quality.

I do pretty well myself. I also have a job and don't depend on this for income. I'll check out your blog. I mostly post poetry, but into a few articles every now and then.

erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago (edited)

The solution there would have been to go to ten random blogs, read them, make 10 mindful comments and given ten new users a reason to check out your blog. Do that again the next day with ten new users. Rinse and repeat every day.

Next option would have been to take 1/4 of the SBD you spent on a vote bot and held a contest and found users that way.

It's work but this is a social platform for community building, every vote purchased make the vote sellers richer and keeps taking away from the reward pool that those ten users per day could give you repeatedly over and over again for their entire steemit career.

You help them power up, they help you power up and wow, the playing field starts to level out and minnows become dolphins.

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moeknows (60) · 7 years ago (edited)

I have done that since day 1. I continue to do that all of the time. It is effective in the long run, but nearly as quick as getting on the trending page. In order to make thoughtful comments, you have to invest time to read, understand, consider and relay your response. I believe this is the driving force of Steem, but the time constraints placed therein can be prohibitive. Buying votes allows me to tap into both methodologies by getting exposure to the trending page and by freeing up time to continue commenting and upvoting others.

I have seen a couple minnows grow to become dolphins. In both cases, they used vote bots quite a bit.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

Word of advice, no one who has a vote over $1 every looks at hot or trending. They are known as the bought and circle jerk section. They are a trap for new users.

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moeknows (60) · 7 years ago

I don't think that's necessarily true, but it sort of makes my point. Good content doesn't rise to the top. Steemit gives the privilege of curation to the whales and they generally do a shitty job of it. If you fix that problem, you fix the bot problem.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

The problem is a new user who comes here from YouTube for example with 500 SBD can repost YouTube Content here buy votes, get the SBD back from the bots +Steem power + Rep and it's all just for reposting content and buying votes. No work done, just money spent.
It would be nice if buying votes got you to trending but did not add Rep to the user buying it. As I study it it is much easier to just come here reposting and buying votes than creating and working at it.

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miller-spiff (36) · 7 years ago

Nice one actually...

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sanmi (64) · 7 years ago

I always wonder, they all can bring positive changes by encouraging users to not use upvote bots and write good content and they will upvote. They could use the same amount of their power that they are using today to downvote. And its my personal perception that encouragement works in a better way than discouraging or downvoting.

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farq (54) · 7 years ago

They are not wasting all of their SBD's to buy more votes, they trade them for more steem to add more Steem power so they have a bigger vote

That is called smarter than you

Is it smarter though?

if you have 10SBD - you can put it into a bot, get roughly $10 worth of SBD back as well as $10 worth of SP.

if you put that 10SBD straight into SP you'll get around 12SP...

so how much does that extra 2SP increase your vote power? by 0.01 cents?

how long will it take to make up that difference in the fact that you could have had 10SBD sitting there for a 0.01 cent lower vote value?

I'm not arguing against your "greater good" argument, because that is correct, but this point that I've highlighted was incorrect.

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

For the few users who send the larger SBD bids but that causes every other user trying to bump their post 1 or 2 dollars to get negative results. Singular reward over group benefit.

Let BTC get back to 25k plus and if steem stays low I will build Grumpy 2, 3 and 4 and just set flags to follow the upvote bots.

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farq (54) · 7 years ago

You know there's bots that aren't bid bots right?

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

I have yet to find a bot other than that stupid cat reply bot that was not making some form of money off of minnows. What do you have? I would like to check some out.

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farq (54) · 7 years ago

well the concept of bid bots, that I'm referring to, are those ones that give out a 100% vote every 2.4 hours to whoever has placed a bid. often the bids exceed the value of the vote, so those bidding end up at a loss. Reason being, if you place your bid early on in the process, you don't know how many people are going to bid after you and therefore cause you to have a loss. (could even be somebody related to the bot owner for all we know).

When I say there are bots that aren't bid bots, they're bots that still sell upvotes, but do so in a way that is sustainable - mostly be either using their own SP or by using the voting permissions of anybody that wishes to sell their upvotes. At least in those circumstances whilst the bot might be making money from minnows, the minnows are also making money from the bots.

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leighleigh (48) · 7 years ago

@erodedthoughts and @farq forgive me for butting in here ... I'm reading these posts and comments with great interest and am happy to have found people who are genuine ... just need an answer please (I hope I don't get my head bitten off here!) ... what is the opinion of SBI steembasicincome?

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farq (54) · 7 years ago

Well I've been in it for a month or so.

I'm not sure if the parameters have changed
But I paid 1SBD for myself and another to have a share each.

Each vote I get is worth around 0.01.

So it'll take a while to break even. Maybe 100 votes or so. Or 50 if I only consider my share.

In my case though, I made a post to find that second person that I would include, and from memory I made around half of that 1sbd back, so I probably need around 40-50 posts before i reach break even point, which hopefully won't take too much longer.

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