While I don't think anyone should be obliged to provide a service to anyone unless it is life critical, it is obvious that this has blown up to be what it has become because of the innate dislike for gays amongst religious conservatives. To them, this is just a part of a larger battle where they don't want to concede an inch to their opposition.
Well, aside from being obligated to provide a service, I'm sure you would agree that in states where sexual orientation is a protect class, refusing to provide service to someone on that basis would be illegal, no?
Yes. From how I've understood the laws that you have (I am not American) that is illegal.
Also, as far as I'm concerned, being and acting homophobic is no different than being racist. Both judges an individual based on their innate nature that they had no hand in choosing. The question is just whether or not it is the best response to write laws where in the attempt to protect people from discrimination, it also forces people to violate their core beliefs (irrational and hateful as they might be). I think Dave Rubin said it well when he stated that he was not in favour of such laws "because a state that can force others to violate their conscience can also force me to violate mine".
It just seems to open up space for issues like the ones that surrounded Jordan Peterson in Canada, where suddenly one can be forced to address people in ways that oneself do not agree with due to vague laws.
To me, it just seems that the best response is rather for people in society to have the moral courage to stand with the gay community and against those that discriminate, and instead "punish" them through not buying their services as well as giving them the bad reputation they deserve.
And old religion is often about hygiene, belief with no medical fact or proof to support it. You are dealing with people who lived 2,000 years ago. Trial, error, failure, etc and many times wrong aggregation of cause vs effect...
Same sex sex may have medical and community concerns that others won't know. Racial bias likely has no foundation medically to prohibit or to censure that class. There may be medical reasons not to have sex with men if you are a man...
Yes and biz owner broke the law. He can't burn state's straw man this way using his religion, and Church and State must remain apart. The law wins. State must act.
He is obligated since he agreed to do this. He has a contract with State and agrees by living in the State, much of this is implied or de facto, not to break the law.
honestly i think people have the right to reserve service to anyone they want to —and if they want to be homophobes then let them be punished by losing the business and developing that reputation of being bigots. refusing to sell someone something, or to create something that expresses a message they disagree with is not a violation of anyone's human rights. its mean spirited, its closed minded, it is a classic example of religious idiocy and irony —but you should not legislate against it. i don't think this has anything to do with religious freedom though, that's a red herring.
Of course it's about being anti-gay. If it was about religious freedom, they'd be consistent about it. Consistency isn't compatible with religious extremism.
People who read all of the Bible and then cherry pick a few verses to justify their anti gay rhetoric and discrimination are just raging HYPOCRITES. If they lived their lives according to the Bible they would have been locked up a long time ago for enforcing the heinous nonsense it prescribes, or stoned to death by their religious brethren for violating it's myriad of contradictory and immoral rules.
By the way, do you think it is mere coincidence that consumption of the kinkiest of porn is highest in the most religious states? For all we know that baker is a closet homosexuals and only did this to avoid detection like so many homosexuals in those states before him.
If a private business refused service to me, I would be upset, but I would probably just do business with their competitors instead. If they don't want my money, I can go elsewhere. I like to look at this issue from different perspectives. If I were a baker, I would not be comfortable baking an anti-gay cake for the Westboro Baptist Church. By that standard, I don't think we should force businesses to provide services that go against their values, even if I disagree with those values. I hold a different standard for government services because equality under the law would be meaningless if the government itself practiced discrimination. The government must treat its citizens equally, but private business can pick and choose their clients and the sorts of services that they wish to provide. To be honest, by discriminating against gays, the business puts itself at a disadvantage. They are losing customers and creating bad publicity for themselves. While I'm not a hardcore libertarian by any means, this is one situatuon that I think the free market can resolve.
So he's a bigot who dislikes gay people, and expresses that through declining to bake them a cake, but he's not proud enough to admit it, so he's pretending to have religious problems with it?
How do you know this?
I think people who say businesses should be able to serve whoever they want are just exercising their white privilege and have never experienced the tyranny of the majority. How would that work in the south where you'd have entire towns where a non-white person could not be served? Talk about ghettoization.
Operating a public business is a privilege regulated by the government. If that government's laws regarding operating such a business allow discrimination such as this then it is depriving some of its citizens of privileges and liberty and that is against the 14th Amendment.
So I really don't care how you think capitalism would magical solve all these problems, it's unconstitutional. And besides it won't, capitalism optimises for preservation of wealth over humanity and cares not one iota if a rich white elite optimise their wealth by suppressing a poor black minority.
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law
That's exactly why gay marriage ended up being legalized by SCOTUS.
The problem is with the want as some do to call wrong right and right wrong, you can't really allow prejudice to go too far.
In this case denial of service would not be wise since these people are not breaking the law or asking the vendor to advocate a criminal act.
The State is there to tax and moderate the business practice and when they default and deny service, then you have what you have now. US State and local and lesser States end up being defunct in their want to deny service in total.
You can not do biz in USA since they refuse to do so.
It leaves you exposed to all manner of fiat, fraud, fantasy, and folly legal actions against you.
"I won't sell a cake to you, I won't make a cake for you"
Literally all other coverage I saw on this case said that the baker wouldn't make them a cake for their wedding for religious reasons but would serve them other services if they wanted to. Tho I disagree with the baker, I think that misrepresentation is messed up.
Overall I think that the baker should be able to do what he wants, if you look at logic most actual homophobes use now a days, alot of arguments are based on the minority forcing things upon the majority (some complains justified others not). This will serve to reinforce their beliefs and might be negative for the LGBT community in the long run.
This is a black/white legal matter, law ends it. NO grey on it.
And for those like me this problem ends same, he will deny service to me since I had Church do atrocity, child rape, and murder to me and then asked me to leave.
US State denies service for same reasons in largely same ways and uses same logical and legal fallacies in doing so.
The hypocrisy and want to suppress the knowledge of things deemed as being "unsavory" is the forte of those who rely on religion (for one) to blame others this way.
They are usually guilty of larger and worse "sins" (I have experience with how these people think and act with my family and others) and they prefer to use other "sins" as their way to market them as being "perfect".
Blame of others makes them look right for what they do in the dark.
Likely no coincidence that Adam Weishaupt in forming the Illuminati in Bavaria, circa 1776, preferred to call his clan "The Perfectabilists".
You really might not want to deny service this way since you will never know your customer's real intent and can only glean that from some words he makes YOU write on the product.
Seems a trap. And of NO concern to the vendor selling you the cake.
What is inside the cake is what counts. To be corny.
The worst sin seems to be speaking against something that is wrong.
The owner of the business, cake shop, is wrong since he denied service to someone based on his prejudice, which in his case MIGHT be based on religion.
He broke the law.
Overall his business and all others must be apart from religion, this is what the law requires, and in that he needs to leave his faith at home while at work.
The only exception to that is if he claims he is a Church and he is a Pastor.
This is cake.
Not religion.
He has no right to break the law.
He has no protection under the law based on freedom of religion since we have a right to be free from his.
This IS WHY this bifurcation is in place.
What if this person sold you a car and refused to fix it since he learned now you are gay?
While I don't think anyone should be obliged to provide a service to anyone unless it is life critical, it is obvious that this has blown up to be what it has become because of the innate dislike for gays amongst religious conservatives. To them, this is just a part of a larger battle where they don't want to concede an inch to their opposition.
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Well, aside from being obligated to provide a service, I'm sure you would agree that in states where sexual orientation is a protect class, refusing to provide service to someone on that basis would be illegal, no?
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Yes. From how I've understood the laws that you have (I am not American) that is illegal.
Also, as far as I'm concerned, being and acting homophobic is no different than being racist. Both judges an individual based on their innate nature that they had no hand in choosing. The question is just whether or not it is the best response to write laws where in the attempt to protect people from discrimination, it also forces people to violate their core beliefs (irrational and hateful as they might be). I think Dave Rubin said it well when he stated that he was not in favour of such laws "because a state that can force others to violate their conscience can also force me to violate mine".
It just seems to open up space for issues like the ones that surrounded Jordan Peterson in Canada, where suddenly one can be forced to address people in ways that oneself do not agree with due to vague laws.
To me, it just seems that the best response is rather for people in society to have the moral courage to stand with the gay community and against those that discriminate, and instead "punish" them through not buying their services as well as giving them the bad reputation they deserve.
Anyways, I have zero sympathy for the baker.
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People "Believe" many things in error certainly when a large body like Vatican tells them to. Those things often need to be reversed by law.
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And old religion is often about hygiene, belief with no medical fact or proof to support it. You are dealing with people who lived 2,000 years ago. Trial, error, failure, etc and many times wrong aggregation of cause vs effect...
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Same sex sex may have medical and community concerns that others won't know. Racial bias likely has no foundation medically to prohibit or to censure that class. There may be medical reasons not to have sex with men if you are a man...
One caveat I see.
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Yes and biz owner broke the law. He can't burn state's straw man this way using his religion, and Church and State must remain apart. The law wins. State must act.
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He is obligated since he agreed to do this. He has a contract with State and agrees by living in the State, much of this is implied or de facto, not to break the law.
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honestly i think people have the right to reserve service to anyone they want to —and if they want to be homophobes then let them be punished by losing the business and developing that reputation of being bigots. refusing to sell someone something, or to create something that expresses a message they disagree with is not a violation of anyone's human rights. its mean spirited, its closed minded, it is a classic example of religious idiocy and irony —but you should not legislate against it. i don't think this has anything to do with religious freedom though, that's a red herring.
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Of course it's about being anti-gay. If it was about religious freedom, they'd be consistent about it. Consistency isn't compatible with religious extremism.
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People who read all of the Bible and then cherry pick a few verses to justify their anti gay rhetoric and discrimination are just raging HYPOCRITES. If they lived their lives according to the Bible they would have been locked up a long time ago for enforcing the heinous nonsense it prescribes, or stoned to death by their religious brethren for violating it's myriad of contradictory and immoral rules.
By the way, do you think it is mere coincidence that consumption of the kinkiest of porn is highest in the most religious states? For all we know that baker is a closet homosexuals and only did this to avoid detection like so many homosexuals in those states before him.
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If a private business refused service to me, I would be upset, but I would probably just do business with their competitors instead. If they don't want my money, I can go elsewhere. I like to look at this issue from different perspectives. If I were a baker, I would not be comfortable baking an anti-gay cake for the Westboro Baptist Church. By that standard, I don't think we should force businesses to provide services that go against their values, even if I disagree with those values. I hold a different standard for government services because equality under the law would be meaningless if the government itself practiced discrimination. The government must treat its citizens equally, but private business can pick and choose their clients and the sorts of services that they wish to provide. To be honest, by discriminating against gays, the business puts itself at a disadvantage. They are losing customers and creating bad publicity for themselves. While I'm not a hardcore libertarian by any means, this is one situatuon that I think the free market can resolve.
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Maybe ask the baker, and then take his word for it.
Unless you believe you have more insight on his motivations than he does.
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In the words of House MD: "Everybody lies".
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So he's a bigot who dislikes gay people, and expresses that through declining to bake them a cake, but he's not proud enough to admit it, so he's pretending to have religious problems with it?
How do you know this?
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I think people who say businesses should be able to serve whoever they want are just exercising their white privilege and have never experienced the tyranny of the majority. How would that work in the south where you'd have entire towns where a non-white person could not be served? Talk about ghettoization.
Operating a public business is a privilege regulated by the government. If that government's laws regarding operating such a business allow discrimination such as this then it is depriving some of its citizens of privileges and liberty and that is against the 14th Amendment.
So I really don't care how you think capitalism would magical solve all these problems, it's unconstitutional. And besides it won't, capitalism optimises for preservation of wealth over humanity and cares not one iota if a rich white elite optimise their wealth by suppressing a poor black minority.
That's exactly why gay marriage ended up being legalized by SCOTUS.
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The problem is with the want as some do to call wrong right and right wrong, you can't really allow prejudice to go too far.
In this case denial of service would not be wise since these people are not breaking the law or asking the vendor to advocate a criminal act.
The State is there to tax and moderate the business practice and when they default and deny service, then you have what you have now. US State and local and lesser States end up being defunct in their want to deny service in total.
You can not do biz in USA since they refuse to do so.
It leaves you exposed to all manner of fiat, fraud, fantasy, and folly legal actions against you.
A waste of time.
Tort mongering and God play.
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"I won't sell a cake to you, I won't make a cake for you"
Literally all other coverage I saw on this case said that the baker wouldn't make them a cake for their wedding for religious reasons but would serve them other services if they wanted to. Tho I disagree with the baker, I think that misrepresentation is messed up.
Overall I think that the baker should be able to do what he wants, if you look at logic most actual homophobes use now a days, alot of arguments are based on the minority forcing things upon the majority (some complains justified others not). This will serve to reinforce their beliefs and might be negative for the LGBT community in the long run.
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I think it's a bit of both. However I think if it were a different religion denying it might not have been so newsworthy.
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It is definitely about anti-gay discrimination
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This is a black/white legal matter, law ends it. NO grey on it.
And for those like me this problem ends same, he will deny service to me since I had Church do atrocity, child rape, and murder to me and then asked me to leave.
US State denies service for same reasons in largely same ways and uses same logical and legal fallacies in doing so.
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The hypocrisy and want to suppress the knowledge of things deemed as being "unsavory" is the forte of those who rely on religion (for one) to blame others this way.
They are usually guilty of larger and worse "sins" (I have experience with how these people think and act with my family and others) and they prefer to use other "sins" as their way to market them as being "perfect".
Blame of others makes them look right for what they do in the dark.
Likely no coincidence that Adam Weishaupt in forming the Illuminati in Bavaria, circa 1776, preferred to call his clan "The Perfectabilists".
You really might not want to deny service this way since you will never know your customer's real intent and can only glean that from some words he makes YOU write on the product.
Seems a trap. And of NO concern to the vendor selling you the cake.
What is inside the cake is what counts. To be corny.
The worst sin seems to be speaking against something that is wrong.
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The problem in total reduces to:
The owner of the business, cake shop, is wrong since he denied service to someone based on his prejudice, which in his case MIGHT be based on religion.
He broke the law.
Overall his business and all others must be apart from religion, this is what the law requires, and in that he needs to leave his faith at home while at work.
The only exception to that is if he claims he is a Church and he is a Pastor.
This is cake.
Not religion.
He has no right to break the law.
He has no protection under the law based on freedom of religion since we have a right to be free from his.
This IS WHY this bifurcation is in place.
What if this person sold you a car and refused to fix it since he learned now you are gay?
An ambulance driver?
A doctor?
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Any business should have the right to refuse service to anyone they want...
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trust me the free market works
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good job. Looks beautifil:)
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Come up with a coherent definition of rights and then well talk.
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