Is google an illegal money transmitter and securities exchange?

frost04 (57) · 7 years ago

Conclusion

The mere existence of a token does not create a security nor a liability. The provision of computation-as-a-service does not make one a money transmitter or securities exchange. Paying service providers-in-kind does not make the service providers issuers nor money transmitters.

Totally agree. The blockchain as is in its simplest terms a means to which a service or information can be written on a spreadsheet/ledger and the best part is that its immutability unlike Google sheets where in google has all the powers to change or alter anything should it wish to do so.

In this case blockchains such as EOS tokens and so on should not be considered a security nor a liability in this specific case.

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4 votes

rival (67) · 7 years ago

excellent article.. this is a perspective I will not forget..

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8 votes

teamsteem (74) · 7 years ago

I feel the same about this post and a lot of Dan's writing and overall work.

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3 votes

aristokratos (50) · 7 years ago

@dan's post interest me. I respect you too alot @teamsteem

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rival (67) · 7 years ago

indeed, I am looking forward to 2018 and what will happen.. contact me on steem.chat to discuss some things about projects if you want.

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rejoiceavl (49) · 7 years ago

@dan this is an excellent article, ur perspective is cool too.

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arbit (26) · 7 years ago (edited)

yes . . . viewpoint is worth 80 IQ there is a saying
this is a very clear and clever way to explain to people who don't understand yet that tokens are not securities . . . that tokens are not securities
calling tokens securities . . . is calling a shared database service a security, which is absurd, exactly
i liked @dan's article from january as well about proof of stake and proof of work compared

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cutiepie (58) · 7 years ago

they are secretly selling all the data and over that says we respect your privacy

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cloudbuster (53) · 7 years ago (edited)

Google will build its own block-chain software. It won't need EOS. You can bypass EOS and build you're own blockchain / dapp like dan did with steemit. Blockchain is just an open data base, not a big deal really.

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realitybytes (43) · 7 years ago

Why would Google pay to hose their own blockchain, when EOS is free. If anything, they will likely copy the open source EOS software after launch. This makes EOS a really big deal.

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cloudbuster (53) · 7 years ago

EOS is free? Where did you get that idea? Block.one charges you for the tokens.

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connortack (16) · 7 years ago

Dear @dan Im Connor from UUNIO(reward driven social media marketplace) steemit+netflix version(https://uun.io) and we are desperate for your help, is there anyway I can contact you? my point view of a content is that a content should be rewarded as long as it exists just like expensive paintings. and Im trying to feed all the contents creators who post their masterpiece at facebook and youtube for free. we've designed to burn our reward tokens with intrinsic value like emojis and software goods. I wish we could have some of your advices..

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3 votes

healthiswealth (67) · 7 years ago

Greetings Dan,
@modprobe has some great ideas for EOS!

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mejustandrew (58) · 7 years ago

You should be posting again here on Steem, instead of just dropping links, really :D

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6 votes

fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago

wouldn't that be considered aggrandizement in Steem etiquette?

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mejustandrew (58) · 7 years ago

Again this term, I forgot what it means... aggrandizement?

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vimukthi (72) · 7 years ago

aggrandizement
[uh-gran-diz-muh nt]
noun
1.an act or instance of aggrandizing, or increasing in size, or intensity:
aggrandizement of mercantile trade in the early colonies.
2.the act of making something appear greater than is actually warranted by the facts:
Some saw it as ego aggrandizement.
3.expansion of power, wealth, rank, or honor:
The department was used for the aggrandizement of its leaders.

Basically it's Dan making Ned feel small even after he left the platform. Ned doesn't like it.

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10 votes

mejustandrew (58) · 7 years ago

Thank you for the explanation, hope this time I will remember it!

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inalittlewhile (54) · 7 years ago (edited)

He could have used MASDACS.io and cross-posted on both his platform and Medium at the same time. Hi Dan. Nice to meet you. Thanks for Steemit. :)

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mejustandrew (58) · 7 years ago

Never heard of it, and I don't tend to trust projects that I haven't seen before so easily so this is what I think he will do, especially if you think that he has a lot of wealth distributed to his account, and all of this while copy-paste is not that hard. And there is another reason why he wouldn't try to post the same content in multiple places and that is because @cheetah will come after him with @steemcleaners.

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inalittlewhile (54) · 7 years ago

MASDACS.io is a Steemit based project put on by Whaleshares and @officialfuzzy. I'm only just learning about it more myself. For all I know, the site may have been down doing updates. It's still in the works I believe, adding more platforms and such. I was joking more than anything. I also heard that @cheetah has been updated to not flag cross-publishing (RSS feed???) from certain platforms. Like the SteemPress plugin for example.

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mejustandrew (58) · 7 years ago

Oh, that's great then, he could be using it, I don't know if he knows about it, but as you say, we just keep learning :)

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dubem-eu (56) · 7 years ago

That will encourage dumping of articles from those platforms here in steemit.

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inalittlewhile (54) · 7 years ago

Another point of view is that it will allow flagging across all platforms in support. An abuser will be reprimanded on more than just Steemit. Kind of closes a spammer's options.

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frankbacon (65) · 7 years ago

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Reveal Comment

mejustandrew (58) · 7 years ago

He will ignore these comments, you know? :))

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frankbacon (65) · 7 years ago

Just like he ignores his past projects...
Yes, I am aware.

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mejustandrew (58) · 7 years ago

Well, I hope he won't try to create another Steem, because that would be competition, even more than Steem already has. If you think about it, it seems that there is going to be an eosfinex as competition for BitShares.

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valth (68) · 7 years ago

Competition for the social media blockchains might not be such a bad thing. Right now development is taking forever here on Steemit, so a little competition might end up leading to a better products for those of us who use it.

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kirkins (66) · 7 years ago

Surprised he just drops a link but it is clear that Steem can't fulfill what is needed to go to the next stage.

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phgnomo (64) · 7 years ago

Sorry dude, not his product anymore.

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frankbacon (65) · 7 years ago

Sorry dude... it always WILL BE.

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phgnomo (64) · 7 years ago

Sorry dude... Not part of Steem Inc. anymore, not his product anymore.

Just a user as all of us (just a LOT bigger)

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frankbacon (65) · 7 years ago

I accept your apology. See ya.

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yesaye (53) · 7 years ago

Got eem.

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valth (68) · 7 years ago

While Steemit Inc. owns the website Steemit, the Steem blockchain by itself is open source, and owned by all who have a stake in it (Steem Power in this case). It's not like Steemit Inc. owns the blockchain.

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valth (68) · 7 years ago

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voluntary-io (43) · 7 years ago

I like the analogy and I perfectly agree, there can't be a crime in technology
or medium itself, if some people choose to use it in any illegal way then this is completely different problem. There's still a lot of confusion around tokens and the general knowledge is still pretty poor, but it's improving and we're getting there!

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gtrplayer (49) · 7 years ago (edited)

In general, I agree with you that the issuers of the tokens are responsible for complying with the securities laws. There is a four part test under the Howey case decided by the U.S. Supreme Court that determines whether something is a security.

The test requires the following:

An investment of money.
An expectation of profits from the investment.
The investment of money is in a common enterprise.
Any profit comes from the efforts of a third party, such as the managers of the enterprise.

It shouldn't be difficult for the issuers of tokens to structure the tokens to avoid the application of the securities laws.

For the most part I agree with you that the service providers will not get into trouble under the securities laws, but where they may have some exposure is if they accept tokens in consideration for their services and those tokens are deemed to be securities. In that case, the service providers might need to register as broker-dealers under the securities laws to avoid liability, because if the providers are acquiring securities that they are then able to sell for their own account, they could be deemed to be broker-dealers. One way to avoid that would be for the providers to simply require payment in cash rather than accepting tokens as consideration for their services.

I'm sure block.one will review that issue carefully with its attorneys to avoid problems.

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iseewhy63 (34) · 7 years ago

Would block producers be exposed by using tokens like an incubated fund?

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dan (69) · 7 years ago

Almost accurate but it must be solely on effort of a party who must be contractually liable to provide value to token holders.

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3 votes

albertozain22 (35) · 7 years ago

Am glad to see your post here on steemit @dan, In my own opinion I really don't see what business Google has with money exchange..
They should fixate on their company and how to improve it.

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lordjames (62) · 7 years ago

The post wasn't really about Google or their plans either. Was more of using what we already know about Google to express his own perspective and insight into blockchain technology as an service provider.

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fatherfaith (68) · 7 years ago

Hearing so many things about google hate for crypto lately. Don't know if by 2025 Google would have moved the backend of Google Sheets to a blockchain. It will be a nice move if it happens.

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lordjames (62) · 7 years ago

2025 would actually be too long for everyone to wait for Google to do this. The platform is already in place, the tools ready and the idea just got shared, am sure if Google won't do it, someone will be working on it this year. If that's launch maybe with the EOS.IO software, then Google will have a tough competitor.

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dubem-eu (56) · 7 years ago

Yes there were speculations of google planning to ban crypto which are not yet clear.

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penking (54) · 7 years ago

Alice and Bob offering themselves shares of their own company is what I'd tag as a wrong move. You should allow other people to buy the shares of your company. You are already the owner of the company and you decide what happens to the profit. My take though

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dan (69) · 7 years ago

They then sold them to public.

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penking (54) · 7 years ago

Very well .

But I'm still wondering why they had to to offer themselves the share first. It could have just remained a property of the company all through

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samirich (60) · 7 years ago

In the future, Google’s cloud based document editing and storage application services may be powered by a blockchain and people will be able to implement currencies, ICOs, and everything else that Etheruem does, on a spreadsheet powered by the open source EOSIO software created by block.one.

The importance and relevance of the blockchain technology can never be overstated. There are so many positive possibilities tied to the technology that every day it gets bigger and more attractive. It might not take up to 2025 before Google itself adopts the technology.
I see a whole lot of these mega companies tapping into this huge innovation sooner rather than later.
Thanks for sharing this well-analysed document.

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lunaticpandora (69) · 7 years ago

Google has shown to be really anti cryptocurrencies lately, they probably feel threatened by them since they are an already established big player in the world stage and are completely intertwined with governments across the globe.

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markzuckerbergs (56) · 7 years ago

If google will use blockchain technology in future then why they are banning blockchain related ads??

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joeycrack (53) · 7 years ago

First it was like an operating system still trying to wrap my head completely around that now like a public spreadsheet.. In this my journey to complete understand the Blockchain and develop on it you have been helping see the Blockchain from different perspectives and it's been amazing... Thanks so much @dan I miss you around here and I also want to use this medium to let you know that I really wish you change your mind and keep blogging on steemit.com I mean I would love to read your posts right. I bets it's coming fine your eos project I wish you all the best.

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taskmaster4450 (78) · 7 years ago

The legislator in Wyoming came to the exact same conclusion. The existence of a token does not make it a security. They defined cryptocurrency as a utility token as long as it is not marketed for speculation purposes.

I see your point about the fact that a google doc could provide the same services as ETH does with a smart contract.

The sad thing it we have people proposing bills that become law who have no idea what a smart contract is from a fishing license. These people are completely out to lunch when it comes to this stuff.

That is why it is so important to keep pushing ahead with decentralization while establishing things in countries that are not as uptight with their regulation. Moving the bitshares website to Thailand and away from the U.S. is a prime example.

Nevertheless, lets see the SEC scrutinize Google like they do other things.

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wa2qr (58) · 7 years ago

I have always appreciated your work. Mr Larimer is such a genius and I look forward to hearing more of him.

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fanen (48) · 7 years ago

A blockchain could be viewed as a spreadsheet and each cell may contain a value or an equation.
...In the future, Google’s cloud based document editing and storage application services may be powered by a blockchain and people will be able to implement currencies, ICOs, and everything else that Etheruem does, on a spreadsheet powered by the open source EOSIO software created by block.one.

I am as well thinking so too...

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pandorasbox (59) · 7 years ago

Alice and Bob, always up to no good!

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jrb450 (53) · 7 years ago

Still too complicated for the current regulators to comprehend. Didn't you see the Financial Services Committee meeting?

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dan (69) · 7 years ago

That was part of motivation to write this.

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taskmaster4450 (78) · 7 years ago

Paying for lunch might be too complicated for the current regulators to comprehend.

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blhz (43) · 7 years ago

i need a non android phone asap.

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uncleboy (50) · 7 years ago (edited)

@dan

we never know sir, before we find more evidence. I see the above link is just a hypothesis, its mean temporary answers to problems that are still prejudice as they still have to be verified

regard

@uncleboy

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princefm (58) · 7 years ago

To me I don't know what to say about google with different news all-round

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tuventure (43) · 7 years ago

The concept of illegal/legal is made up to benefit or coral a certain scope of parties.

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lordjames (62) · 7 years ago

On a second thought the greatest challenge here is how to get the intended audience -the regulators - to fully comprehend the message you are sending out through this post. I feel we often put regulatory authorities on those who knows next to nothing about what they are Suppose to regulate, that happens in blockchain too. I hope someone gets to understand this else it will just end but another wish but in a foreign language.

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deronke (46) · 7 years ago

The hate for crypto currency by Google to me is because crypto deals with the block chain, and is becoming widely acceptable.

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dee-y (59) · 7 years ago

Hey @dan, glad to hear from you again, how is EOSIO coming? For the issue here, Google has been such a big toothless dog on the media lately. I really don't get why they are feeling insecured. What does Google have to do with securities exchange in the first place?... Lolz funny things keep happening every day

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abstract-reserve (40) · 7 years ago

I recommend everyone who has not actually read the article - read it - 1, 2, maybe even 3 times!

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olawalium (74) · 7 years ago

A blockchain is simply a public database-as-a-service. The operators of this service do so with greater transparency and integrity than every other unregulated computation-as-service provider.

Exactly!!! This is like an open ledger, visible for all to see.

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blazing (70) · 7 years ago

they are becoming that way which will doom themself one day

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jwolf (70) · 7 years ago

Yes. Google does illegal things simply by owning our private passwords. It seems all the people that work for google can access our passwords.

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opeyemioguns (68) · 7 years ago

Wow
Ill never forget

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hors (55) · 7 years ago

u da man. that is all.

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temilagszy (60) · 7 years ago

Great post. We should know when to make our moves and we must also be cautious of the moves we make. Thank you!!

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aideedavies (49) · 7 years ago

Good evening @dan, i might not really understand the technical terms here but i sure know what illegal means, i would say google's source of making money and also allowing the general public to do so is not illegal, there are always procedures of getting to make income from google, you need traffic and ofcourse you need google adsense to be able to extract money from there, so from my own, candid opinion, i would say it is not illegal and also i stand to be corrected here from those who knows better. Thank you.

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silent-ghost (9) · 7 years ago

Excelent article @dan ! People blaming technology are just ignorant. People blamed simple manufacturing machines for taking their jobs in the past! People blamed computers for taking their jobs in the past! Well, we still have some jobs, don't we? :)

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olawalium (74) · 7 years ago

With the recent news about ad ban, i don't know what to think anymore about google.

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liberviarum (50) · 7 years ago

Every public spreadsheets (blockchain or not) can be used as a security exchange, imho.

Every exchanges / marketplaces are basically just a "place" for two parties meet, agree, and record a transaction. Now, two parties can also meet, agree, and record a transaction on Google Sheet, Apple's Numbers, Microsoft Excel, or any kind of spreadsheet. Although the softwares and the providers are not legally stated as exchanges, however, functionally, they can act as exchanges.

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primerz (60) · 7 years ago

For sure Google will ~~be destroyed~~ join its force with an new system.

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kparobo (50) · 7 years ago

I don't really think so.

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ninoh22 (55) · 7 years ago

yes, google is an illegal money transmitter and securities exchange for now, am very sure goolge will soon have their own blockchain because they always like to invest on something that is trending, now that the coin market is in dip, they will want to by all means build their own block chain for the to legally transmitte money.

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ura-soul (75) · 7 years ago (edited)

Hey @dan, I always enjoy reading your posts as they inspire new neuronal connections :)

I notice though that you have some grammar errors in your text that hide some of your intended meaning:

Does the fact that Google has the ability to freeze a shareholder’s account by preventing them from making an edit does make Google the custodian of the shares nor an intermediary between two shareholders attempting to buy/sell their shares in like-kind exchanges?

Also, as a Steem witness, I notice that your witness votes are outdated and at least one of the recipients is actually selling their steem account - it would really help me if you would consider switching to drop a vote for me or actually just to cancel all your witness votes if you intend to completely leave Steem behind.

Cheers and may the source(code) be with you!

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sircork (64) · 7 years ago

I'm with Ura-soul in requesting you reevaluate your witness votes. There are a couple of us over here busting our asses for the community's voices and then... there are the cronies and in breeding types up there, or even dead witnesses, that your system and observed point of view on aristocracies vs meritocracies from what I've seen, are in direct conflict with. Yet here we are asking the designer of the platform's rules to take a look at his own witness votes? C'mon man, some of us came to bat for you, when ned acted like a chump. Can we get a little love? :D

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shahidshah (53) · 7 years ago

Hey @dan why you have transferred your Investement back to your bittrex account???

Due to your withdrawals of Steem the Steemit is going too down and that's what is happening nowadays, the whales are withdrawing their Steem from Steemit!

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yesaye (53) · 7 years ago

This guy's the last person you should be asking that question.

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tfame3865 (74) · 7 years ago

Kudos should be given to google here as they have really ender alot but i know they still got big flaws. As for been illegal, i dont know what to say but i will take a proper look at the link you shared again.

But i know that even though they night around legal, they are still some illegal act they are doing. @dan

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dan (69) · 7 years ago

Seems reading comprehension is in short supply around here. Multiple people think I accused google of doing something illegal, when I only asked a question whose answer is no.

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sircork (64) · 7 years ago (edited)

If the answer was "yes" then Chuck E. Cheese tokens and skeeball tickets are a currency that must be regulated too. How could the IRS so blindly overlook such a potentially huge windfall for the Feds by failing to tax all those six year old's birthday party winnings (read "earnings") here...???

Gubmint is dumb.

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intrepidsurfer (73) · 7 years ago

Dear @dan ,

Do you wonder about the power of Steem? Not just it's monetary value, but as a tool to make change happen? I often think about that and the more I work on steemit, the more I see huge potential. I noticed you have a philanthropic side to you.

I have recently started a very simple project on steemit. It is called 'Upvote a tree', where I donate 100% of SBD to the cause of reforestation here in Northern Peru. I actually plant the native tree saplings myself and I post videos about it on here. I have worked in the field of international development for over 10 years and I have yet to see anything close to what steem can do for the world. The principle of just a simple upvote, no mater the value, means it is participatory and driven by a growing community. I could go on and on about my thoughts and visions, but I know you probably get loads of messages and thank you for reading this far.

Kind regards,

@intrepidsurfer

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