Am I being naïve to think such a place exists? Maybe, but I like to think it’s possible.
Today I was listening to @pennsif’s alternative lifestyle radio show, and vegans were featured heavily. As I listened to a group of people whose diet is very different from my own, I was struck, not for the first time, by the thought that we are essentially coming from the same place.
There seems to be a fair bit of hostility on both sides of this argument, but how about we put that to one side and see where we agree?
Commonalities
I’m not talking about people who just eat whatever is around and don’t really think about it. I’m talking here about people who have made a conscious decision to eat a certain way because they believe that is best.
For the most part, I see people coming from a place of wanting:
The best for their own and their family’s health
The best for the health of the planet and it’s inhabitants
I think we all agree on these principles:
• Eat real food
• Food made by nature is better than food created by machinery
• Organic is best
• Homegrown is fabulous
• Meals homemade from scratch will nourish you the most
• Don’t eat too much sugar
• Avoid junk food
• Avoid processed foods
• Avoid GMOs, artificial sweeteners, flavourings and other additives
That’s quite a lot of commonalities, isn’t it?
Differences
Ah yes, there are plenty of those and this is what we tend to see first. But let’s dig a little deeper and look at the differences a bit more closely. To me, they fall into three categories.
Animal welfare
Consciously Aware Vegan (CAV): Intensive farming is cruel to animals. So that we don’t take advantage of animals, we must avoid eating not just meat, but all animal products.
Consciously Aware Meat Eater (CAME): Intensive farming is cruel to animals. So I will make sure I only eat animal products from animals that have been raised in a natural environment. Usually this means pasture raised, and in an environment where they can express their natural behaviour.
See, we’re coming from the same place – avoidance of cruelty.
CAV: But it’s cruel to kill other beings for our own welfare.
CAME: Is it? We all die. That’s the natural cycle of life. Insects must be killed to produce vegetable crops. Small animals are killed when grains are harvested. Is it possible to produce any food without something dying?
CAV: Eating meat is wasteful.
CAME: Yes, it certainly can be. It’s wasteful when only certain parts of the animal are used. Our ancestors used the whole animal, out of respect for the life it gave – the organs, the hide, the bones.
CAV: Most meat eaters don’t have any respect for the animal who gave its life.
CAME: Yep, undoubtedly that’s true. We can’t force other meat eaters to change their attitudes. But giving thanks to the animal and making sure we don’t waste are ways we could all make eating animal products a more spiritual practice.
Planet welfare
CAV: There’s no doubt on this one though. Animals are bad for the environment. For example, instead of using land to grow grains to feed animals, who then feed humans, it would be much better for the humans to eat the grains.
CAME: True, growing grains to feed animals is bad farming practice. It’s much better for the animals to be grass fed. And remember that grass can grow in places where other crops can’t, or in places that some animals can access but that would be hard to harvest.
Consider a mixed farming model:
• cows eat grass, and nothing special needs to be grown for them
• if they are milking cows, the milk can feed the humans, calves and other animals
• hens could eat the grubs that come from the cow droppings
• eggs are a good source of protein
• cow manure can help the fruit and vegetables to grow
• surplus vegetables can be preserved for the winter, but can also be fed to the pigs
• pigs and chickens will both eat leftover foods and vegetables scraps
A family who farmed this way would be able to support themselves very well.
(A CAME who is an experienced farmer or homesteader would probably be able to go into more detail.)
Health benefits
CAV: A vegan diet is clearly the best. Meat and fat clog your arteries. I feel fabulous and am so much healthier, now that I’m vegan.
CAME: Excellent, I’m happy that you have found the right way to be healthy.
CAV: Everybody should be vegan. They would all be much healthier.
CAME: Well, actually, I feel much better when I eat animal products. Our ancestors developed eating mixed diets. They were Hunters AND Gatherers. I think everybody should eat Paleo.
CAV: But I feel better not eating animal products.
CAME: OK, then. How about you eat the way that works for you and I eat the way that works for me?
I’m sure you easily see my bias in these theoretical discussions. But is there any need for ill will between us? Could we have these kinds of conversation, each choose a different path, and still be friends? Even if we think the other is wrong, can we respect their right to make their own decision?
Thanks for reading
Images by myself, @sift666 or from Pixabay, unless otherwise stated.
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Hehe... Yes, your bias is showing ;P
Here's my take: I eat as consciously as I can. To me, it is all about the capacity of an animal to suffer. The cruel part is not when we kill the animal. The cruel part is that we breed them for that purpose alone, and keep them in terrible conditions while they're still alive.
Capacity for suffering... For example, I very rarely eat beef, mutton or pork, and feel bad about it when I do. These animals are intelligent and emotional beings and contributing in any way to the industry that makes hundreds of thousands of them suffer is just wrong.
I eat chicken rarely too, but a bit less rarely. They certainly do suffer but less so than cows, etc.
Fish, I don't mind eating once a week or so...
Shrimp, I have no problem eating at any time.
As for veganism... It's just too difficult for me personally to be a vegan. To be vegan and healthy ends up being very expensive. But my diet is made up 90% of plants, and I drink soy milk now. I still have a weakness for cheese.
Something I'm excited about: in-vitro meat. "Memphis Meats" is one company I know of that is pioneering it. I believe it is the future. Once it becomes cheaper to "grow" muscle tissue rather than breed animals for it, McDonalds and other will start using it. And I'll eat beef without feeling any guilt at all =) (Once a week though - still gotta consider one's health!)
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Yeah, I wasn't trying to fool anyone, though a couple of people did misinterpret, lol.
Agreed, well partly. I'm ok with breeding meat animals specifically for that purpose, as long as they are kept in natural conditions so they can live a happy life. In NZ, all of our beef and lamb is pasture raised, so I have no problems eating what I need of those meats. Chickens are a different story, so I only eat free range chicken. I don't eat much pork, just because I don't feel good on it.
I have a weakness for cheese too, but think it doesn't do me much good, so I'm currently off dairy. But I avoid soy milk, as I believe it's an endocrine disrupter, especially for men. I tend to use coconut or nut milks.
I'm in two minds about in-vitro meat. I can see the enormous potential of it. But it makes me nervous, and in my mind it's like GMOs - we just don't know what the long term effects are going to be. Ironically, I don't feel the slightest nervous about eating pasture raised meat, as I think it's good for me, not a health risk at all. But I would worry about the effects of in-vitro meat on my health. Though I am inclined to think in-vitro meat would be healthier than meat from CAFO animals.
Each of us has to make our own call on what to choose, and for me the important part is making conscious decisions, even if they're different ones from the next person.
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I'm in Brazil so... Hehe, definitely no meat for me. Even if the product says 'free-range' on it, I don't trust it here.
I'd heard about the soy-product EDC issue, but when doing a bit of research, it seems only particularly worrisome for people going through critical developmental stages... That is, teens and younger, especially infants. Not sure though... I only have it with my breakfast every morning, and it is fortified with all sorts of good minerals. Haven't noticed any adverse affects thus far...
GMOs: I've given up on avoiding GMOs... First, they're everywhere ... Second, after a bit of research, I don't trust the organic movement any more. They're now just as bad as the biggest food industries, exaggerating and sometimes outright lying about the harm GMOs cause. I think the worst part of it is exactly as you say... The long-term affects... Eventually, we'll find out, I guess. They've been around for quite a few decades already. Difficult to study though, like all nutrition. I don't envy your job as a nutritionist ;P
In-vitro meat: As far as I've read, it seems safe. Biologically identical muscle tissue. And I'd agree, certainly healthier than CAFO animal meat. Depends on the company practices though, I suppose. In the end, greed trumps all, so if there's a way to "grow" the meat faster and cheaper, it'll be done, no matter if there's a small health risk.
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I thought South America had good meat. Is that not so? Or does it depend on which country?
My bottom line as a nutrition coach is usually, how natural is it? But it's not always as simple as that, and everybody's needs are different. So we need to be open minded about how to meet each person's needs in the most practical way. And sometimes that might mean eating foods that wouldn't be my first choice.
So I take all your points above about how you choose to meet your needs. You just do the best you can, and then don't stress about it!
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Very well done my darling ;) If only people weren't such obstinate, argumentative cause driven shitheads.
Love your pointers at the end, sap your will to live...LOL.
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Ah, the human condition. Or maybe I should say, how humans have been conditioned to be. Because I do hope and trust that our true, loving nature will come back to the forefront of society.
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As a former vegan, I really appreciate this post.
When I became vegan, I was coming at it from a biblical, Christian perspective. (This already placed me in a politically incorrect place among the vegan community, and I found their publications to be antagonistic to my wider worldview.) I believe that God originally created human beings in a garden, where they ate plants, living in harmony with the animals, and there was no death. I thought that I could return to this "perfect" way of eating and human-animal relationship. It worked for a couple years before I suffered from severe fatigue, tooth decay, slow hair and nail growth, and 40+ day menstrual cycles. I had to come to grips with the fact that my body was not a "perfect" Garden of Eden body and the plants I was consuming were not "perfect" Garden of Eden plants. Those plants couldn't give me everything I needed to be happy and healthy, and my body couldn't even absorb and use all of what they were giving me.
Since this realization, I have tried several different nutritional approaches, constantly refining the ones that work for me and discarding the ones that don't. The tradition-oriented approach of the Weston A. Price Foundation has had a significant impact on my own trial and error approach.
I also had to let go of some of my perfectionist and idealistic attitudes. Due to our income level, my husband and I can't always afford organic and/or humanely-raised food. I have accepted that this responsibility is not mine to shoulder. When I am purchasing the best food that is available to me and that I can afford, I am not culpable for every person's actions toward that food along the way. I do not control the price or selection. I do not feed, care for, or slaughter the animals I eat. I do not plant, chemically spray, or harvest fruits and vegetables. I am not in charge of legislature pertaining to agriculture and food production, and I am not a wealthy owner of a food company, raking in profits from outrageously-priced health food. I am content to do what I can, let go of what I can't, and allow others to make their own decisions without criticism. What I eat and who I am are separate. It took me quite some time to accept this, as I began conflating the two at the age of 14 when I decided to practically starve myself.
Anyway, bravo to you for encouraging dialogue about this highly-polarizing topic!
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That biblical, Christian perspective is interesting to me, as I just came across it yesterday in another post. But it also perplexes me, as it seems clear to me that after the fall, humans were very different beings, with different needs. Jordan Rubin's book "The Makers Diet", which excludes pork and shrimp for example, but not other animal products, makes more sense to me as a Christian guideline.
I'm also a great fan of Weston Price's approach. Given that his expectation was that he would find healthy vegetarian diets, the fact that he didn't find any vegan traditions is significant. I did a couple of posts about him when I was first on Steemit.
Looking at another traditional perspective, a correspondent from India once told me that the monks were vegan because they were living a spiritual life of contemplation, but it was understood in India that only the monks could do that. Anyone living in the physical world needed some animal products for sustenance.
Very wise. In the end, that's all any of us can do. Make the best choices we can for our overall health - physical, emotional, financial, spiritual - and not stress about the rest. After all, the worry is probably as harmful, maybe more. As are any feelings of hatred that we might project onto those we disagree with.
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Great post @kiwideb, and perfect timing for my concerns recently.
I've posted it in the Paleo-Trail update just now.
https://steemit.com/paleo-trail/@paleo-trail/paleo-trail-update-march-10th-2018
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I know you and I agree that for us personally, Paleo or similar is the way to go. But we both respect the right of others to make different choices. So I like your position that paleo-trail should be open to any kind of natural, whole food diet, anywhere on the vegan to carnivore spectrum. Processed food is the common enemy, lol!
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This really is a touchy subject. What it boils down to though is respect. We have to respect each others' decisions and we have to realize that there are reasons why other people chose the things they chose. Really though, dictating our own lifestyle on others is not the way to go, and while we can tell people its benefits, it's ultimately up to them whether they'll choose to follow that or now. I like the commonalities you stated here, Deb. I think it effectively shows that we're all not so different in terms of what we choose to it. Great write-up!
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Hiya! I thought you'd be too busy with wedding prep to have time for much commenting, so good to see you here. You've summed up my point very succinctly. Respect and understanding that we can't know what is best for another person. Hope your week is going well.
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I am haha! I just try to sneak in some Steemit time especially to comment on my friends' posts.
It's been really stressful, but we're trying to hang on. Only a few more days and the stress would be all behind us haha! Hopefully...
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Excellent conversation. I eat meat and respect vegetarians. Eating more and a variety of vegetables is healthier than not. But protein is needed when living an active life.
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I often disagree with the conclusions vegetarians come to. But I absolutely respect their compassion for animals, and their right to make their own decisions on how they live their lives. Hopefully, being able to have the conversations without disrespect would make it easier for each person to find their way.
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Thanks for this post, I hope those of us advocating for more natural, traditional diets can find common ground.
I try really hard to get along with vegans, especially since I was a vegetarian for so long. But honestly, the "You are a murderer who doesn't care about the Planet and you're stupid" argument puts me off quite a bit.
Most of the division in our world today really seems to come from people trying to "win" on the internet though. It's like the more objectively correct your argument is, the harder they try to destroy it. I don't know how we will ever get around that.
When I talk to people in real life it's much easier to find common ground.
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I don't care for that style of argument either. Although I mostly see it from vegans, I'm sure there are plenty of meat eaters who are just as intolerant. I agree that the need to win is what gets in the way of any kind of mutually respectful and useful discussion. All we can do is do our best to be open minded ourselves. Like Michael Jackson said, let's start with the man in the mirror. I know you are.
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You can see, that you are not a lover of meat.
It is obvious that eating grain is healthier
than eating meat and eating grain and not
meat we will save many animals ..
I particularly like to eat more
grain I get it more tasty because
my mom prepares it delicious .. no doubt
any.
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Actually, I am a great lover of meat, and tasty as grains may be, they make me ill. But my point was that I can hold that view, and you can hold your view, but we can still be friends. Agreed?
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I like meat, but I do not eat it as much as I was raised around a vegetarian family, and being a friend seems great. lol
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Thank you for posting this @kiwideb. This is so funny yet at the same time a serious issue to consider. You are blessed to live in New Zealand but in most of the world we really cannot support livestock for eating purposes. Frankly I am really weak without some meat in my diet and I'm sorry that another life sustains my life. I have responsibility to use this life for a good purpose then.
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I wasn't really intending to be funny, exactly, but I'm glad it came across as a more light hearted approach to the differences in opinion that abound. I hope that, in time, we can all regard those differences more gently.
We are blessed to live in NZ, and I am grateful for that. But I'm still inclined to think that even in places that can't support much meat eating, they could still support some animal foods. And I don't think you need to feel guilty that you need some meat. But that's just my opinion...
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Thank you. Maybe I was just in a light mood. I feel even better now. I guess I have a strange sense of humor. I remember a vegetarian folk song growing up.
"This is what we implore
No more meat please."
And yes. There is meat in other countries. Just not so natural.
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Light moods are good! Humour is good, whether strange or not!
That is one of the things I find sad, the places where the meat isn't naturally raised. I would love it, if everybody had access to healthy meat. I do agree with the vegans that some meat is not healthy to eat. If I lived somewhere else, that would be a big problem for me, as I need meat every day, but wouldn't want to eat CAFO raised meat.
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My brother had a t-shirt that says "My food eats your food" lol I'd love to know what ends up being more harmful to the environment, eating meat or driving a car 2 hours a day in city traffic.
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Since I don't happen to think eating meat that has been properly raised harms the environment, I'm going to pick that it's the car ;-)
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I just laugh when vegans who move these 3000lb pieces of metal around by burning fossil fuels to go back and forth to work and to do errands like groceries down the street etc.. bring up the environmental impact of large scale farming.
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I actually agree that large scale farming has a bad impact, but I'm more thinking of intensive mono crop agriculture that destroys the land.
And I don't believe in fossil fuel. It doesn't make any sense to me that oil comes from dinosaur remains. I think it's abiotic. But that's me being pedantic. I do agree with your point that using cars more than is absolutely necessary is a waste of resources and creates pollution. Maybe the worst aspect though is the effect on our lifestyle, making us less active.
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I consider myself a "CIME"-- a Consciously Indifferent Meat-Eater.
I have a lot of admiration for vegans, honestly. I joke about not respecting them but it's an act. I don't really like the militant PETA-types, but I really do believe their heart is still in "the right place." So I try not to hold it against them too much. They're just fighting against what they honestly believe to be a tragedy. Just because I disagree with that premise does not mean I need to harbour ill will toward them.
Most vegans are probably better people than I am. I don't really have many arguments to back up eating meat. I like some of yours, but then.... I don't really adhere to "ethical meat" guidelines. So, we're back to square one.
It's just not a concern of mine. I have some other stuff to worry about, and eating meat is natural to me. No different than what predators do in the wild-- wait... it is, because they tear the flesh off their prey while they're still alive. Yikes.
I hope that doesn't make me a bad person, even if it makes me not the best person I could be.
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CIME, lol. I don't think it makes you a bad person. I like that you have respect for others with different opinions. And your path in life is your path, and nobody else has any right to judge it. It may be that there are other more important areas for you to address.
I like to think all of us are trying to be the best person we can be, even if we fail over and over. Don't think I'm claiming to be some kind of saint. I don't always manage to be non-judgmental, especially if someone is wantonly cruel.
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New Zealand has some of the best meat in the world in terms of animal welfare and sustainability. In Spain its much different you do see as many 'free range' animals - and they eat alot of meat! This meat must come from somewhere.. make you wonder where?
I really like having meat in my diet but it has made me re think my options here in Spain - once I have better Spanish I will be going to the butcher and ensuring my meat is from places that have good animal welfare standards.
I think alot of the world now just overconsumes meat which has lead to the problem of not having enough supply and thus haveing to farm animal in pens
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I can't say that I think people over consume meat, as I know, for good health, I need a reasonably high level of animal protein every day. Maybe a lot of people do, though a lot of others don't. What I do believe is there could be ways for everybody to get the foods they need most if we all work together towards it. Maybe that's too idealistic, but starting with a goal of us not fighting amongst ourselves is one small part of that. Another part of that is doing what you intend to do, and buy the best food you can find and afford. I'm lucky that part is fairly easy for me.
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The must important thing is to take care about our health any diet is ok as long you know to take care of your body and your health
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It sounds like you and I agree that there are many different suitable diets, and we can each find our own best one, without fighting about it.
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Obviously, you know I'm a vegan. It surprises me just how hostile some vegans can be to other vegans. I have friends and family who are meat-eaters and vegetarians, and our different diets aren't an issue to us. I did get some teasing when I first went veggie back in the 1990's, but that was because I was the first among everyone I knew to do so. Now, others have joined me, and being vegetarian or vegan is not so out of the ordinary.
But, other vegans can be downright unpleasant to talk to. I had another vegan on here keep pestering me for a while about a year ago because I am tolerant of meat eaters. He likened it to me being tolerant of Nazis who operated the concentration camps, and said I had a responsibility to speak up about animal welfare. While animal welfare does concern me, it is not the only reason I am a vegan, and I know, as much as I hate factory farming, it isn't going to change just because a small handful of people want it to. Vegans are still the minority.
I tried to join a vegan group on FB recently, because it was about finding cheap vegan products. But, when I read posts debating what a vegan REALLY is, and people arguing that if you are only a vegan for health reasons and not animal welfare reasons, then you're not a real vegan, I left the group. That's a little too militant for me.
Live and let live, be kind to animals, speak up about outright animal abuse, and eat the way that works for you and your health needs and personal beliefs. As long as you're not eating human sacrifices, I'm good with it.
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I can handle differences in opinion. I have no need to feel offended if someone disagrees with me. You and I have always been able to have our differences and still be friendly.
But being so aggressive towards someone because they have different attitudes is downright unpleasant, and that's what I hope to see change over time. In a reply to a comment by @milkjar I mentioned a couple of theories about why some people might be like that. But I do also wonder about B12 deficiency. I hope no other vegans visiting this post take any of my thoughts as being anti vegan, because they're not. But I do feel being able to discuss it is a necessary part of being able to peacefully co exist.
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i love eating meat, but I also understand where the vegan's are coming from, i enjoyed reading your article ;)
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Hi @kiwioz, great to see another kiwi on board. My sister, @andysantics48, and I will be in Brisbane in May and hope to have time to catch up with some Brissie Steemians.
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Great post @kiwideb! Really nice to see someone reaching out for friendship & commonalities :)
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Thanks! There are always more commonalities than differences, even if sometimes it's not so easy to find them!
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I think the keywords are consciously aware. This is an issue I have been giving much thought to. It's even more difficult with issues of availability and financial constraints, but it's something I'm going to have to tackle.
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Have you had the results of your son's tests yet? If you have to make changes to diet due to those, that could make it even more difficult :-( as it complicates things.
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All his tests were normal. I think stress was a major factor in his stomach pains, as this year is the beginning of a new phase in school. He is pretty confident, and does well at school, so I didn't pick up on it at first. Diet is a factor though, and I have noticed he gets worse if he eats anything with lots of additives, so I have to try and keep things as simple as possible.
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Oh yes, stress can definitely do it. If things don't settle, though, remember that tests don't pick up all the different types of gluten intolerance, for example. But fingers crossed that things get better as he's settling into the new school scene.
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Thank you, at the moment I am experimenting.
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What an enlightening look at eating meat versus not eating meat. I could easily not eat meat at all. I rarely eat it now but understand that some people would be lost without it in their diet. Great discussion!
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Thanks, Peggy. There are a lot of people who would be lost without meat because they wouldn't know what else to cook. For them being able to have a non confrontational discussion with someone with a different skillset would be really helpful. So yet another reason to be able to communicate!
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I really enjoyed reading this well thought out blog @kiwideb and I believe you have the right attitude in your replies to comments made. I am not a vegan but I believe my diet should always include a larger proportion of vegetables than anything else. Food is such an emotive subject and we all have our favourite 'go to' foods to perk us up emotionally. It is often those foods which are the most harmful to us.......unfortunately. It is not until we experience chronic health conditions that we are prepared to give up foods that we have grown up with and that we associate with happy memories if we learn that they are causing health issues. It take our brains a long while t o adjust to doing without the foods that become harmful when sickness occurs. I'm all for balance and the older I get the more motivated I am to be kind to my gut. It is much harder to undo damage caused by wrong eating than to prevent illness by practising life long, good eating habits. I'm sharing this in the hope that it will produce a lot more 'healthy' discussion and perhaps educate some on the changes that may be necessary to bring a better quality of life for them. Have a wonderful week my kiwi friend.
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I agree with every single thing you've said here! And part of that learning which foods will nourish and sustain you is learning that it is different for everybody. Another reason why we need to be able to have these conversations without judging another person's journey. The more chronically ill the population is getting, the more critical it is to know that there are lots of different ways to health, and to be able to explore the ones that seem like they will be most helpful, without being made to feel guilty. You have a great week too.
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So true @kiwideb Our diet is not a case of ‘one size fits all’ or what is good for one person is good for another as we all have different hereditary weaknesses and our environment also plays an important part of our health.......as does our stress levels. I’m appreciating more and more the need to choose foods that are alkaline rather than those that will increase the acidity of the body. I also appreciate your willingness to pit your neck on the line with sharing your views but it is clear to me your heart is to help others and that is the important thing. Thank you for that. 🌺
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I wish more vegans were like you.
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If more vegans were (completely) like me, there would be less of them, lol. But I know what you mean.
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Respecting other people's rights to speak is more important than having more people saying what you agree with.
My youtube channel got terminated because of angry vegans. I had no strikes when it happened.
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https://steemit.com/funny/@traf/grrr-me-hungry
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I'd heard that happened to you and was sorry to hear it. I suspect (hope) that the angry kind of vegan is a vocal minority. I wonder if it's a symptom of some of the worst characteristics of our modern times. People who are offended by anything and everything, and so self obsessed that they only see their own perspective and not anybody else's. I don't think that's limited to vegans. Another angle is being so idealistic that there is no room for any other view, and any disagreement is taken as an attack. Maybe that is something that might change with maturity?
There are vegans here on Steemit that I've known since I first joined, and we can discuss our differences without offence. @stephmckenzie is one of those, and she's commented on this post about how she herself has been attacked by the more militant kind.
It saddens me, and I hope there comes a time when all of us can be free to speak our truths without others feeling attacked and offended.
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The entire world seems to push us to find the things that seperate us, than to find the common ground. I am from the US amd we grew up hunting and fishing. We always had our own chickens that free ranged. No pens! If you don’t do something to control the deer population, this is also catastrophic. If you are going to eat meat, Venison is one of the best options.
Now I live in the Philippines. We have growing weather all year round and many people hungry and, believe it or not, naked. So we have a small farm where we grow our own food, and we give away a bunch too!
I feel much more healthy here. It is almost impossible to stay away 100% from GMOs anymore, with cross polinization, winds carrying seed.
I eat very little meat. Most of the time I prefer fruits and vegetables. And the result is better weight, more alert, amd just generally feeling better.
Eat as close to the original natural state as possible
Think of the environment every step of the way
I have goats, chickens and will have a cow and possibly a water buffalo. All roaming and enjoying life.
The goats are a ministry to the poor. Generally not for eating, but for milk, keeping the grass down and providing income and milk to extremely poor families.
Anyway! I do think we have many things in common. I have no anger ie animosity towards those who choose a different lifestyle as mine.
Interesting post!
Thank you
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So true, and you've really summed up my whole point in one sentence.
A very good point. When being able to eat meat is just not an option, as it is for many people, goat milk is a godsend.
Thanks for adding to the discussion.
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I am not much for taking photos of my meals, but I did take a pic of my breakfast this morning. Thank you for working towards what unifies is.
I didn’t grow the rice!
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Another aspect to this which relates to you - in a warmer climate, you can eat a much lighter diet and still be healthy. That's maybe an aspect not many people take into account. That breakfast looks lovely.
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Very true! With all of the great and healthy food here, sad to say, most don’t eat a have a healthy diet.
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That's a shame, when people don't make the most of their local resources.
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There are things growing here that is pretty much free and available, if you live in the country, that you would pay a premium for in a health food store. Malongay, guiabano, guava. Guava leaves are great for making tea that is good for your stomach. Coconut water. The list is pretty long. But many only eat meat and rice?
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I suppose people often don't value what is freely available. If you have to pay for it, it must be better!
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im pretty sure in cowspiracy they investigate grass fed and it take up a vast amount of land space. for this t be sustainable the price of meat would have to rise alot, be an elitist product which is fine by me.
there is already a social gap between natural meat eater (non processed foods) and mean i know alot of ppl go veggies because they dont have enough money for meat.
caring about animal welfare and simply not wanting to kill them because i love animals is different. yes everything naturally dies but in the farming industry every animal has to be killed. killing and naturally dieing are different. like i'd prefer to die in my sleep than be murdered.
i dont hate meat eaters, i get along with them fine but i do question their logic
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Haha, sometimes I question vegan logic. But if we can get along despite questioning each other's logic, that's when a true dialogue can happen, in a space where we can consider each other's points without having to be defensive, and thus offensive. I'm glad to think that you would be open to that at some point. That's all I asking for now. Thanks for your point of view, and for expressing it nicely.
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For another persective, see:
https://steemit.com/istilleatmeat/@builderofcastles/convince-me-challenge-why-you-should-eat-meat-accepted
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I don't think such a space exists.
It's like asking: "Finding a space where ethical people and slave owners can agree to differ, and still be friends"
Veganism follows logically from human moral value. So if you are a meat eater but at the same time you think humans have the right to live you can't deny that right to an animal without being logically inconsistent or a speciesist, which has the same logical framework as racism and sexism.
"I eat animals because they are from another species."
"I own black slaves because they are from another race."
"I tell women what to do because they are from another sex."
Rings a bell?
It's hard for an ethical vegan to be friends with a person that is intellectually dishonest and contributes to unnecessary suffering, enslavement, torture, rape and death.
If you can name a trait that is present in animals which if present in humans would justify stabbing a human unnecessarily for food then I'm all ears.
I created a topic here on Steemit so you can familiarize yourself with the #namethetrait argument:
https://steemit.com/vegan/@ethicalinvestor/is-eating-meat-wrong-debate
Have a good one :)
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Well, you have certainly done what it takes to destroy such a space. You did it by starting your hate based condemnation by calling anyone who disagrees with you a murdering slave owning rapist. Why would I want to discuss anything with you at this point? You have removed any chance of civil conversation by dehumanizing me with your shibboleth. That's a tactic, not an ethic.
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I have been thinking about what you might have wanted to achieve with this comment.
I have responded to this comment as I like to always reply to people who comment on my posts. But I won't reply to any further comments you make.
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Maybe he has a beef with you....
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