I appreciate the mentions and all, but I'd like
to point out I did not say "the community."
I do see the multiple ways to view this
community vs. Justin Sun thing. If they
felt they had to exclude his stake I would
have preferred they did so defensively after
he moved to fork. See dhimmel's post about
it. Even then, it's still a slippery slope for the
reasons that you mentioned. Where do it end
after you start down a path such as that.
Well stated.
(EITHER) you believe in protecting individual property rights (OR) you believe "THE COMMUNITY" can take what they want at will.
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I believe both, but the latter isn't
necessarily right or just, it's simply
evidence that the law of the jungle reigns
supreme behind the illusion of bc/morality.
I think reputations may have been tarnished
on both sides a little bit. Had Sun been put
on notice that the community will fork away
and null his stake on the new iteration if he
tries to fork with astroturf witnesses, then
the action would have seemed more like a
an honorable and defensive move to me.
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The professor in your Harvard lecture is a charming and charismatic CON-ARTIST.
He's leading the students down his primrose-path, while dodging FUNDAMENTAL LOGIC, by presenting false-dichotomy after false-dichotomy.
The very definitions of "utilitarian" and "ethics" are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
This professor never considers basic definitions (PRIMARY AXIOMS).
This professor didn't even hint that the very definition of "murder" is critically flawed.
Then he calls KANT'S DEONTOLOGICAL ETHICS, "categorical ethics"? WTF?
Aren't all categories of ethics technically "categorical"??
The only person who made a lick of sense was the very last audience member who spoke about feeding their family. +PROHUMAN +PROFAMILY
There areprobably hundreds of problems with this entire discussion, but two very important topics which were 100% absent include "the fundamental attribution error" AND "human instinct".
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They don't call it the trolley problem for nothing.
If you send the trolley down path (A) to save the people
in path (B) are you responsible for killing the people in (A)?
How can one decide or not decide knowing that doing either
will condemn one group to death while sparing the other group?
Notice I left out murder in exchange for killing because we common
folks tend to conflate the meaning of the two. Killing is more of an
amoral term, so we don't have to address the intention of the act.
Moral absolutism doesn't do so well when pitted with this one.
Here is another interesting one for you, it's about meta-ethics.
There are more than relativism vs. absolutism, and probably a
slew of sub-sects to consider as well, he covers a lot in ten mins.
different schools of thought and how they may see the Trolley problem.
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This is a very impressive appeal-to-ignorance (don't get me wrong, I love watching this stuff).
Let's try this.
(1) Please make your personally preferred definition of "fact" explicit.
(2) Please make your personally preferred definition of "morality" explicit.
(3) Please tell me if you personally believe that (1) and (2) are mutually exclusive.
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If moral absolutism could be compared
to theism and moral relativism to
atheism, then I'm agnostic.
I realize, those are big ifs.
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What do you think of these "absolute" AXIOMS?
AXIOM #1 - PROTECT YOURSELF
AXIOM #2 - PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
AXIOM #3 - PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
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I disagree. (IFF) you subscribe to a principle-less pure power-for-power's-sake "law-of-the-jungle" (THEN) telegraphing your intentions to your rival (via threats) is frighteningly naive.
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I don't subscribe to just one, I think
both exist, and both have their place.
I can go on a Safari with a long arm &
shoot a Lion just because I can do it.
Or I can go on a Safari with a long
arm & shoot a Lion in self defense.
They both demonstrate law of the
jungle, but the latter was within
the realm of reasonableness if
am protecting my or someone
else's life in a lion attack. Guy's
post seems to suggest that we
can fork if he chooses to go his
own way w/o comm support.
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You can't subscribe to "optional" principles.
If you consider principles "optional", then THEY'RE NOT PRINCIPLES.
A principle is something you follow no-matter-what-the-cost.
If you can be bribed or bullied - then you had no principles in the first place.
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So if you go on a Safari because you're
an animal lover, and the tour guide is
attacked by one lion in a pack of lions.
Do you shoot that lion with his rifle or
not? Mind you, if you don't, what will
end up happening is one of the other
lions will attack the group. The keys
to the automobile are in the pants
of the man getting attacked by the
lion. So, you either go against your
principles and kill the animal. Or
let the animal eat the tour guide
keys and all, and wait for the rest
of the pack to eat the group?
It's a trolley problem whereby
one's inner principles & morals
are challenged based on events.
I think you might like this, it is a
free Harvard lecture about Justice.
It can be easy to view things solely in
black and white, but on rare occasion
life gets in the way and muddles it all up.
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Click to watch 2 minutes,
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Exactly..... a choice is not a choice,
in and of itself! The Harvard lecture
is edifying though, even beyond the
trolley problem there is much to learn.
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I've been told repeatedly by high-ranking-community-leaders, "if you don't like it, start your own blockchain".
That's exactly what they should have done (since that's the advice they give to everyone else).
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Can't argue that, also since the community
divide will likely result in two blockchains.
This means, you don't have to collect the
airdrop on the sisterchain. You can just
use the tron/steem chain if ya want.
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Does this mean that steemcleaners and cheetahbot and marky will GO AWAY??
Hmmmm, that might be interesting!!
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Good question.
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I changed the attribution to "special thanks to" after my modification to your insightful quotation.
Would you like me to remove you from the credit?
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Nah, it's fine. I just wanted to clarify that I was
not calling the community organized criminals.
I can see both sides of this debate, and it's very
unfortunate that it went down the way it did. I
think forking was overkill if clear communication
could have happened and if dhimmels solution
was a plausible move forward. They stuck a fork
in it now, so I guess it is over and done, for better
or worse, consequences be damned. We shall
soon see how well it's received by bystanders.
The debate might be overkill or self defense?
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I think the fork should have happened regardless. Given the freeze etc is not changed and the moment they got no further with the Korean community and neither letting go of the gas no matter how many "simple" options Justin was given. Ideally, they knew they were going to fork midway the snapshot should have been done and then they could have ceased all facades and just let it be. If he did not mess the chain then another snapshot could be done for more up to date figures because the main idea is to replace not be a fork of steemit and the plan is to exclude. I have no issue with that. It has been enacted with caution fair enough but it comes off as it maybe should as spiteful. Instead of showing strength and leaving it at a point of well we did try and then we let them be there was a push until the end.So probably overkill, effective but overkill.
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HIVE IS ALIVE!!!
JOIN US, YOU'LL HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME BALANCE AS YOU HAVE HERE ON STEEM WITHOUT THE CENTRALIZATION AND CENSORSHIP!!
https://hive.blog
https://twitter.com/innerhive
ALSO, FUCK YOU @JUSTINSUNSTEEMIT
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HIVE IS ALIVE!!!
JOIN US, YOU'LL HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME BALANCE AS YOU HAVE HERE ON STEEM WITHOUT THE CENTRALIZATION AND CENSORSHIP!!
https://hive.blog
https://twitter.com/innerhive
ALSO, FUCK YOU @JUSTINSUNSTEEMIT
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HIVE IS ALIVE!!!
JOIN US, YOU'LL HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME BALANCE AS YOU HAVE HERE ON STEEM WITHOUT THE CENTRALIZATION AND CENSORSHIP!!
https://hive.blog
<br
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Perhaps I should clarify that any "will of the community" is a de facto government.
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Oh, I'm not saying your comment is correct or incorrect just that I didn't say it. TBH the whole situation is muddy and can be viewed from many different angles. In the strictly technical sense the new forked iteration wasn't the stake or property that Justin acquired or purchased. If you have a CD of you singing a song and you loan it to me and I copy it and give it back to you and then deface the copy with scratch marks so the CD doesn't work, I didn't destroy your property. You still have your CD of you singing. So there is the strictly technical way of looking at the things and stuff but then there is also the question of the moral perspective.
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First off, I don't know how you could possibly come to that conclusion (who do you think the "real" owner is/was?).
And Secondly, regardless of who you or I or anyone believed the "real" owner is/was, INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNTS SHOULD NEVER BE TARGETED.
Rules change, I get that, I'm not against all rule changes, but any rule change MUST apply equally to all accounts.
Making special-temporary-one-time-only-rules for special-temporary-one-time-only-cases is a wide-open-door to FASCISM.
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The forks suggested are an entirely new chain.
A new token which is airdropped. People don't
seem to have faith in his governance. If he creates
a divide that forces a split, then his ninjamine coin
will not be airdropped on the new chain. He'd still
have all of his Steem to sell, if it has value after he
breaks all the things and stuff by leading people
to a place where they don't wish to follow. What
he wouldn't have is whatever the new token is.
It's not ideal, I'd like for there to be only one
chain in the end, and for him to keep all of his
stake with the option to sell it. But his desire
to control the future of the blockchain might
end up being the tokens undoing and the
creation of a new community and token.
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That certainly "sounds good".
However, it does absolutely nothing to fix the REAL PROBLEM.
They're still targeting specific accounts (airdrop some accounts and not other accounts).
And by neglecting to even acknowledge the REAL PROBLEM (de facto centralization by anyone with sufficient stake or by anyone powerful enough or charismatic enough to collude with major exchanges), they seem doomed to FASCISM.
Which is fine. We casually accept dictatorial control from our governments and our corporate jobs and our parents. Why would anyone expect the steem blockchain to be any different.
I just wish they'd stop droning on and on about "decentralization" and "protecting personal property" and "libertarian principles".
What a flipping joke!
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Decentralization and dPoS do seem
to conflict with one another. I can
see why you're frustrated by this.
People believe both can exist, but
eventually they can clash. JS doing
with his dPoS breaks decentralization.
Freezing assets breaks dPoS. Maybe
one day someone can build a chain
that works like it says it should.
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Is "dhimmels" solution to expand the "top witness" category to 200 instead of 20?
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https://steemit.com/steem/@dhimmel/the-best-protocol-level-solution-to-the-tron-takeover-impasse-do-nothing
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Thanks for the link, it appears they're simply proposing 1 vest 1 vote, which is difficult to disagree with, but I'm not sure that alone will "solve" any potential future hostile take-over.
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