Witness Update: Running v0.23.0 to Support Hive

coininstant (66) · 5 years ago (edited)

Yeah I don't think it's fair my account @coininstant and my other account @honusurf were excluded. I voted for both sides because I had no idea what was going on, so I split up my votes to stay impartial.

I like decentralization, that's why I came to the blockchain.

I just don't think it's fair that everyone else gets coins but me I will definitely have to leave steemit too now. It's like playing a board game like monopoly and everyone else gets extra money but you, it's uneven and I'm going back to any coin but these. I quit both HIVE and STEEMIT over this!!

If you can please get me my airdrop coins.

Thanks!

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6 votes

fingersik (66) · 5 years ago

this to me sounds like a strong argument for you to get removed from the black list...Luke is prolly not the guy to plead to tho...

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coininstant (66) · 5 years ago

That's the reason I have to leave, if everyone else gets an airdrop buy me it dilutes my steem!

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4 votes

lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

I voted for both sides because I had no idea what was going on

Unfortunately you voted without understanding and in so doing participating in centralizing and attacking the chain. There were many posts (like mine) explaining this attack.

That said, I agree with you that this wasn't done right. Once Hive launches, I'm hoping you and others can participate in the airdrop through proposal system. The funds were removed. The code transfers them to the proposal system. That way the token holder community can decide.

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coininstant (66) · 5 years ago (edited)

O.K. thanks. I got left with worthless STEEM that is going to 0 and I invested a lot in steemit. Please let me know how I do this proposal thing, I have no idea. Sorry I've been really busy and distracted, I didn't read all your posts. I scanned it, but it way way over my head and I didn't understand any of this stuff! I been here since 2016, I came for decentralization, it is not my fault the witnesses population got infested, innocent people like that just voted should not blamed for ned and JS! Like I said before I must leave steem now, and I cannot use HIVE unless I get an equal airdrop like everyone else. My steem just got diluted by everyone, and I have no idea if it happens again and again, so I am quitting steem and hive!!

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4 votes

lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

I too have been here since 2016 (June). I put in around 9 BTC at all time high prices (aroudn $3, $4) and watched STEEM go to $0.07 after that. It sucks. That said, I also didn't purchase something without understanding it first. I researched DPoS, witness voting, proxies and such. You've been here a long time. Were you aware of what was happening and how the chain was being actively attacked?

I hope the proposal system works out and you can participate in the airdrop. I think there are some code updates that have to be made to get it fully functioning on Hive (still plenty of work to do, from what I understand... the devs have been working like crazy). So it may take a while. In the meantime, I hope you can be patient and ensure people understand you do not support centralization so the current Hive token holders will not see your stake as a threat to the Hive chain.

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kennyskitchen (72) · 5 years ago

Holy wow! I didn't think there would be anywhere near that many accounts on the list. I was expecting the StInc accounts, the new sock puppets, (maybe) proxy.token, and (maybe) the exchanges involved.

300 accounts not getting the airdrop for their voting (besides the actual StInc stake) seems excessive. Any chance some of that conversation is "on the record?" I would love to hear the reasons for such a broad-sweeping approach.

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lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

It's a very difficult situation. When it comes to proxies, it's just about the stake in that account, but the stake of all the accounts that use that proxy. The "maybe" part is what bothers me most. It's subjective and I was hoping Hive would start as objectively as possible.

The conversations took place in various places including dev chats and a private channel (with 26 people) in a Slack. Myself and @fredrikaa were the most vocally opposed.

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dhimmel (65) · 5 years ago

if any of the excluded accounts feel they were improperly treated, they can submit a proposal on the Hive chain to have Hive funds equal to their Steem funds at the time of the fork distributed to them. Of course, those with Hive tokens would have to agree and support their proposal (which I find very unlikely), but it does, at least, create an opportunity for them if that's the right path forward.

I'd vote for a proposal to return all funds to users that were not SINMS funds. How many tokens is this anyway? I imagine it's a relatively minor amount of tokens, but creates a large perceptual impurity in the new chain. We shouldn't be taking tokens from those we disagree with.

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lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

I wouldn't word it as "taking tokens from" because those who put in the work to actually make the code changes did so voluntarily and those who run the code do so voluntarily. It's an airdrop.

Unfortunately, I don't think the amount is minor and that's another reason I disagreed with the approach so strongly.

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ash (73) · 5 years ago

Exclude accounts who voted a minimum of two sockpuppets and who didn't unvote before the hive announcement with more than 1k sp

that's fair. play stupid games win stupid prizes

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niallon11 (68) · 5 years ago

I see steemchiller on the list. Is that not the person running steemworld? A valued member of the community and has been here the whole time helping the community. There is well over 300 people on the list even though I though the puppets only had about 70 votes each.

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3 votes

lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

As I said in my post, I did not agree with how subjective the criteria is for who was not part of the airdrop. I too think Steemworld is a valuable tool. I hope steemchiller comes to Hive, explains his rationale for supporting centralization of Steem, and goes through the proposal process to get Hive airdropped tokens.

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niallon11 (68) · 5 years ago

This seems very centralized to me that a core group of people have decided not to give people their equivalent balance in hive as they didn't agree with how they used their stake in the past. What about scammers like haejin and ranchorelaxo who milked the system for years and drove thousands of users away. People like bernie that have spammed and threatened the whole blockchain to mention a few. Doing damage to it's reputation and driving out users.

If you are moving away from justin and steemit inc that's fine but who are the witnesses to say that people can't use their stake in the way that they see fit. I don't see some of the accounts being any more harmful than the ones that i mentioned and think that it should be all or none.

People shouldn't have to apply to a group of devs for stake that they deserve through owning and holding legitimate steem tokens. They don't have to agree with your opinion on how to run the platform or it's no different from what justin is doing himself.

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4 votes

lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

I agree and have pointed out the damage people like bernie, haejin, ranchorelaxo, and others have done many times. I become a target when doing so (bernie had me on a downvote bot for months, set to vote right before payout so few people noticed).

It does feel centralized which is why I was vocally against it. Unfortunately the alternative was to disable my witness, and I still care about Hive and representing those who vote for me too much. I'm hoping the proposal system can be used to make this right. That doesn't rely on devs but on the community showing support for the accounts that would like to participate in the airdrop.

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mattclarke (68) · 5 years ago

That's what I came to say. Steemchiller is a massive asset to this community.
Steemworld.org is incredible and I use it every day. I notice a decent number of Korean splinterlands players in the list; not sure if they'll be missing out on big balances though.
tradingideas wonsama fenrir78 gfriend96

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lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

See my reply here. As to the Korean community members you mentioned, I think their accounts were included based on the criteria mentioned. If they want to participate in Hive and they can convince the Hive community they will not support centralizing it as they seemed to do with Steem, hopefully things will get worked out.

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glory7 (80) · 5 years ago

I assume that you are not that naive to say it is realistic.

Airdrop exclusion list decision was made by selected few (you are one of the main witnesses and it seems that you were not even one of them), behind the curtain. Do you really think these "select few" who excluded them would love to admit that they did a mistake?

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lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

From their perspective, they won't view it as a mistake. If the proposal system works to let those accounts participate in the airdrop, it won't matter what their view is because the community of token holders will decided.

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mattclarke (68) · 5 years ago

"To maintain the overall supply of Hive at the same level as Steem for launch, a portion of HIVE tokens will be airdropped to the Hive dev fund to create a robust resource pool for decentralized development."
So the SINMS still exists, we just have 'good people' in charge of it now?

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glory7 (80) · 5 years ago

Where did you get that info? Can you share the link?

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https://github.com/openhive-network/hive/blob/0.23.0/libraries/protocol/hardfork.d/0_22.hf

mattclarke (68) · 5 years ago

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glory7 (80) · 5 years ago

Thanks, but not the exclusion list - where did you see the phrase about the 'hive dev fund'?

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https://medium.com/@hiveblocks/press-release-the-new-hive-blockchain-is-launching-heres-everything-you-need-to-know-b95b05d30c7c

mattclarke (68) · 5 years ago

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mattclarke (68) · 5 years ago

No mention of retaining the SINMS for the DAO in blocktrades' original post.

"Does the community have the resources to launch a blockchain?
Yes, we do. It’s actually much easier for us to launch a chain, because of the many lessons we’ve had operating the Steem blockchain. And as far as financial resources go, several prominent Steem stakeholders have privately offered both computing resources and significant financial support, including my own company, BlockTrades. Even at this early stage, I’m utterly convinced we have sufficient support to launch and develop this new blockchain."

If there's money on offer, people will take it. I'd much rather see witnesses writing and reviewing code. If total supply were lower, and price higher, witness rewards could cover development costs, particularly as there's no clear, urgent path forward after SMT's, which is already coded.

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Show 4 more replies

glory7 (80) · 5 years ago

man, can't believe that you forgot to include me! =)

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mattclarke (68) · 5 years ago

I only recognised the guys who compete down at my level ;)

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glory7 (80) · 5 years ago

Have met you at splinterlands a while ago - hope everything is going well.

I will keep it short for now. By just counting the numbers you clearly see some of the allegations are based on mere propaganda, not facts.

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niallon11 (68) · 5 years ago

I still play but not as active and and down a lot lower than yourself. Same for my steem activity as i have a lot less time at the moment and have pulled back from it a lot.

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surpassinggoogle (76) · 5 years ago

This post is simply evidence among other things that someone voting or not voting doesn’t entirely indicate their intention of support. And further evidence that decentralization is a grander issue than vote or no vote. People vote for a variety of reasons, not only to support something. Now because I vote for one reason only, doesn’t mean that I will conclude that a large expanse of people from all walks of life, must have voted for that same reason. While people may hurriedly say that ah, most people are here for rewards for instance, well, people, to gain insight in to the true state of the world (steem as cctv) or to sandbox a dream.

People can vote or not vote or interchange vote over the course of time to weigh matters and perhaps give room for decentralization to ensue. It can’t be concluded that people only vote to support something. Same as for instance, you ‘would stay on steem to support the chain’ in this case, will not have enough context (just courtesy of you having ran 22.1) without your post explanation here. meaning that I can’t be conclusive as to your intentions for staying on steem solely because you have chosen to run 22.1. And well, even if you didn’t explain in a post your decision and just ran 22.1, who will I have been to say that your decision is poor or right.

If there was perhaps a voting system and a small poll posed to ‘gather intention’ (which is easier to automately measure than say a small box where people needed to state their intention), then perhaps that gives a more factual basis for a more decentralized decision-making than recount votes or who doesn’t as a measure of support or otherwise. Vote by itself may not entirely carry intention, reason why in some cases people come out with an entire post for context sake, be it a witness vote or even a post vote (in many cases, downvotes). I for instance vote for many other reasons besides reward-distribution or content-visibility or to display support for something. I could vote to stir a stimuli to get unadulterated feedback or vote provisionally to weigh matters or not vote or interchange vote cos I am trying to fix the real life, one could vote to play with the button or see how blockchain reacts etc.

Amongst other things, people voting Sun directly or indirectly (in some cases through a proxy decision) doesn’t necessarily mean that they support centralization, they can have voted for a variety of other reasons; it could also mean that they want to exercise a right at the very least, which is where a grand meaning of decentralization comes in.

Altogether, votes alone isn’t parameter enough for conclusions when it comes giant decision-making involving a large community for it only carries a measure of facts.

Where it is only vote we have, that is where the community at large comes in for discussion sake. That we have a blockchain that offers vote should relegate the role of humans, else the blockchain would have been perfect from the outset. That witnesses have been voted in, shouldn’t relegate discussions. Altogether, discussions are needed for the evolution onto decentralization. A variety of reaction and interaction and a balance or eventually compromise is how decentralization comes about and it takes time. Even for hurried decision-making where the witnesses have to take a leadership, the unheld discussion can still be held even where it results in reverting decision, else it may come up later with more detrimental impact. Vote alone is a very simple action. It can’t by itself form the base for world impacting decisions e.g attaining centralization cos vote by itself can highlight context. Same as a yes can mean no underlying, where there is no way to relate context. Same as one can easily be cajoled into saying ‘a simple yes’ compared to an entire sentence.

Humans should be able to exercises these things at least even if to stir further discussion tangible for the evolution of decentralization and be allowed room to do so. Now their decision-making and mentality on a subject could change over the course of time, which is proven on steem (many arrived on steem and adjusted their decision or mentality on a subject courtesy of the beauty of steem). A decision today may not be same tomorrow and that is where the beauty of blockchain comes in, not as a small god-code to curb humans, but as a tool to play out a curriculum that adjusts mentality. Many of these things should be discussable. People shouldn’t entertain fears of discussing these things, cos these discussions and measure of freedom to react or interact is what leads on to decentralization. Decentralization isn’t a very old concept, people need to grow into it and be given room to do so. Even where witnesses are elected, doesn’t relegate the role of the community at large in these discussions, cos votes isn’t an entire indication of support. Vote in itself can mean many things.

Altogether, humans who have steem are to a measure of extent or even to a large extent according to me, community members. I am not one to bash anyone for having a say.

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lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

Amongst other things, people voting Sun directly or indirectly (in some cases through a proxy decision) doesn’t necessarily mean that they support centralization

I agree, but the end result is the same: it did lead to furthering the centralized control of the chain.

Same as a yes can mean no underlying

Up isn't down. Black isn't white. No matter how much context or nuance is added, but yes, I agree with your point that a "yes" is different than a "Yes, if I have to, but I really have strong disagreements which I'd like to explain..."

People shouldn’t entertain fears of discussing these things, cos these discussions and measure of freedom to react or interact is what leads on to decentralization.

Unfortunately I've been told to "shut up" and "leave" many times when I voice my perspectives. The fear is real for many.

No system is perfect, and we all know this. We're evolving governance as we go and mistakes will be made. One sign of effective governance is how well it handles mistakes. We shall see.

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surpassinggoogle (76) · 5 years ago

Very beautiful. Altogether I see beauty in all this. A lot to learn.

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brianphobos (70) · 5 years ago

Ewwwww. Wow. All the blocked accounts....ok. And the funds will go into the HIVE DAO?

You guys do realize this makes it look even more like it is more about control right?

You effectively end up in the same situation as Steemit Inc by taking their ninja mine and other people's stake as well and putting it in a system you control to feed yourself further.

The core group will be the ones to benefit from the DOA.

It is just the same circle jerk from a few months ago on a new chain.

I'm not opposed to another platform. I will post to both but I really haven't seen a lot about how this will be any different than STEEM from a couple months ago.

Posted using Partiko Android

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lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

I do realize it's a problem which is why I'm talking about it.

in a system you control to feed yourself further.

I don't control it. The HIVE DAO is controlled by token holders. Do you think it hasn't served the community so far on the Steem side of things? From my perspective, it's better than what Steemit, inc was doing dumping STEEM constantly with not much to show for it.

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brianphobos (70) · 5 years ago

Not really, the STEEM DAO was mainly stacking coins and only providing support to those in the in group.

Conceptually it could work but that is what we see with a lot of DAO systems. They become a waste of time for anyone who isn't buddies with those in power to even mess with it. Then those with all the support and power in the system can keep drawing off of it.

It is likely better than what Steemit Inc was doing in paying employees and dumping the coins all the time. Who iknows though.

We will see. It will be an interesting thing to watch and I will post stuff on both chains but I don't I anticipate the same situations that caused @partiko to leave and others. They won't be in the group so there won't be support for them and HIVE will be an ultimate former Steemian circle jerker's paradise.

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wakeupkitty (76) · 5 years ago

I know nothing about codes and find it a pity I read a post again that is mainly meant for insiders, those who understand all about it.
What I learned here in the past year is that no one can be trust,those who rule do so to fill their own wallets/lockets and do not care about any society only downvote the threats.
Many lefts which was long before Sun took over and in the past year, it was a certain group that earned the rest was fought. I learned that this is not an easy, warm, welcoming place to be for newbies. It isn't user friendly, the communication is bad and there is no engagement at all no matter what you try. It is a place to post quickly and earn and leave. Those who earn are mainly the rich ones the rest doesn't count. I learned there's no freedom of speech. People who think differently or don't know are treated as if they are fools and hostility is their reward. I learned too that it's a mobile user only unfriendly place to be. If you are limited by a slow connection you do not count and probably never will. It's 2020... It's not that long ago people thought it was far in the future and we would live such a modern life.
With my slow connection I can hardly load google and sites and posting is impossible. Might be this is a goodbye or I stay where I am. I wish you good luck. 💕

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lukestokes (75) · 5 years ago

I'm sorry to hear that has been your experience within this community.

People who think differently or don't know are treated as if they are fools and hostility is their reward.

I have seen this and been on the receiving end of it as well. It's often just a handful of loud minority (I can think of about 5 to 10 accounts who do this often). It's truly unfortunate, but I'm hopeful communities can help with that so people can manage them and exclude people who do not follow the guidelines of that community.

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wakeupkitty (76) · 5 years ago

Thank you for your answer. I stayed but many left sadly enough. It should be a place for fun, it's big enough to find a new circle.

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santigs (51) · 5 years ago

Luke, is there any way to implement referendums in Hive in the future so all users with stake can give their opinion upon critical decisions the witnesses go through?. Even if it is not binding, it would be valuable for the community, starting a new blockchain with "issues" as who has the right to get the airdrop is important enough to ask all the stake owners.
Thanks for the update

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