What do you do when you’re swimming peacefully out in the steemit sea and suddenly a whale attacks?
First off, “attack” is too extreme of a word to use here to accurately represent reality, but I was trying to paint a mental picture based on real ocean life, where a whale could (hypothetically) attack you.
Anyway, the real subject at hand is in regard to whale downvoting. Sure, many whales have done this for various reasons, and most recently @smooth has been attempting to level the playing field for everyone on steemit a bit by downvoting posts that have a sizeable amount of the total daily payout. By doing so, @smooth reduces the total payout amount of the post that was downvoted.
Basically, if 20 posts on a day each get 2% of the total rewards, then there are potentially 1000 or more other posts sharing the remaining 60% of the total rewards.
Are the motives of @smooth to destroy every good paying post and scare away users from the steemit community? I would have to conclude “NO.” In fact, it appears that the goal is to make steemit more user friendly by allowing for a greater distribution of the total daily rewards. Technically, that’s not a bad thing.
WHAT DO YOU CARE?
If you’ve watched how @papa-pepper interacts over the past months here, you know that I don’t jump into every “fight” or heated discussion here on steemit with two guns blazin’ and I have no intention of doing so now. Obviously, like many others, @smooth included, I have a genuine concern for steemit, the steemians, and the future of this community. But late last night, something happened.
@smooth downvoted a @papa-pepper post!
Yep, @smooth cruised over with a whale flag and dropped the payout of my post from over $50 to just below $30. So, now it’s time to post about how evil @smooth is and go all Captain Ahab, right? Well, that is an option and I certainly have the freedom to do so, but I do have other options as well.
OTHER OPTIONS?
Knowing that a real concern for steemit is the reason why @smooth has been downvoting, I thought that I would share a thought that I had in response. After all, @smooth left me a kind reply stating the reason for the downvote. Also, the post was still worth about $30 anyway, which is not too bad these days.
So, kindly and calmly, I replied, and made the following point.
Many of us do not get large payouts very often, so when we do, couldn’t a periodical larger payout just be making up for all the smaller payouts that we normally get?
I do think that if every post from certain users always get large payouts, then it can be a problem and not only tie up a lot of the rewards but also be very discouraging to others. In a case like that, I can see potentially good cause for downvoting to reduce the payout. Also, with extreme payouts that tie up a large portion of the total rewards for the day. However, I don’t think that this is what my post was.
Once I shared my thought with @smooth, the downvote was removed and the post payout increased from $29 back to $55.
Yes, the “Big, Bad, Downvote Whale” @smooth did that.
WHAT’S THE POINT?
The purpose of this post is not to run a negative or positive PR campaign for @smooth or any other whale. The purpose is to make a point. How you interact with others matters. I could have cursed @smooth and made posts complaining about what happened. (Everyone is free to choose as they wish, I’m just sharing that I’d rather not take those actions.) I could have used nasty and derogatory language against @smooth.
I could have quit steemit. I could have flagged every comment that @smooth made. I could have made a meme about it. But, instead, I chose to discuss and share some thoughts.
Rather than resorting to emotional, childlike, or negative behavior, I chose to have a respectful conversation with another adult, and @smooth chose to do likewise.
Of course I had no guarantee that anything would change on the payout of my post, and it didn’t even have to, but @smooth chose to. I understood the viewpoint of @smooth and @smooth understood the viewpoint of @papa-pepper. Not only that, we both concluded that the viewpoint of the other was valid. Also, @smooth now may have a slightly different perspective one this issue, which could potentially affect future voting and downvoting by whales.
THE STEEMIT COMMUNITY
Overall, @papa-pepper isn’t just concerned about @papa-pepper any more than @smooth is just concerned about @smooth. There is much going on here that involves a whole community, and it involves every one of you too. If you have thoughts on the matter, please respectfully share them below, and thanks for your time.
In case you are interested in seeing the full conversation between @smooth & @papa-pepper, the LINK to that post can be found HERE. Our discussion is in the comments.
Also, you may be thinking that it is easy to interact kindly and respectfully when things go in my favor. It is easier, to be sure, but even when things are hard, they are still possible to do! Plus, the current potential payout for that post is at $66.29 and although it will probably be dropping slightly (they usually seem to in the morning) before the first payout in 5 hours, there is still a chance that the payout could receive an "adjustment" due to a whale downvote. Whales certainly have the freedom to use their Steem Power in that way.
Regardless of what happens to me or my posts, at least there is a potential that whales will take your blogging history into consideration prior to adjusting a payout with a downvote. If it's your first big hit or perhaps making up for many low paying posts, maybe they will just swim on by! Either way, Papa cares, and I hope that you choose how you interact wisely!
STEEMIT LIKE YOU MEAN IT! (RESPECTFULLY)
FOLLOW
A quote from the Angry Birds movie:
"Anger is not always the answer!"
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Never saw the movie, but that sounds accurate! Thanks @darthnava!
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
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This was a brilliant post on may levels. I especially liked that you were able to communicate your ideas in a respectful but honest manner. This is a really hard balance to strike with most humans. I personally have never seen smooth reverse a flag, so this is a first. Getting your first whale flag is a rite of passage. Mine occurred many months ago and now it just doesn't matter to me very much. It still stings, but the pang passes very quickly now. Great insight that I think will help people who want to be proactive.
Handling conflict is one of the areas we as a community need a lot of help with...
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I agree, we all need help with conflict resolution, and in hindsight, I'm glad that I got the opportunity to demonstrate it in a respectful manner. Also, the flag reversal was nice!
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
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I completely agree, well done @papa-pepper
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Thank you kindly @natureofbeing!
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Now that's a well reasoned and thought out post. My respect for you increases all the time @papa-pepper. The occasional larger one for a user who doesn't get such things is not a bad thing and your response and subsequently smooth's response are great examples of rational discussion in action
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I thought that it was a good example of a rational and respectful interaction.
Thanks @meesterboom!
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Thanks for this post, @papa-pepper . As you know, I'm newbie here (relatively) and I'm only a silent observer on this issues, but I really have to thanks you for the respectful manner that you used. In & out the net, I think it's always more fruitful to use respect when we have a dialogue then screaming at each other, independlenty from the reasons. Screams generate screams, respect generate respect. My 2 cents.
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We should use more respect when interacting with others! I appreciate your 2 cents!
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
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You are lucky, i tried to reason with smooth and it didn't go so well. Happy that you turned the instance around into a positive one, good for you! If he wants to even the playing field more I just wish they would apply their votes accurately, to every post above $50 for example, rather than just picking on a few people it seems. But I don't care, just going to keep plugging along! cheers!
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I didn't realize that it happened to you too, and it was in the back of mind as a possibility after @blocktrades upvoted my post. I hoped that I wouldn't get downvoted, but many hours later I did. I chose to at least try to make a point, and it went well. Hopefully people will have more to think about in the future.
Thanks @doitvoluntarily!
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Awesome response yesterday @papa-pepper! I saw your post and Smooths response. I'm also very glad you wrote this article today. Being a newbie here I was really surprised by all the back biting that took place. I also didn't feel it was my place to weight in, as I don't have enough history or information to debate the situation.
But as a newbie I was not impressed at all by those who choose to rant on about a fellow steemian. Think how this looks to outsiders or people considering joining. I also thought if it was me being the whale, and I was acting in good conscience, I wouldn't like to be ganged up on by the minnows. I will also confess, it would also be hard to swallow a significant downvote. In the end, I believe we should respect one another, even if we disagree. I believe we can all learn from the conversation between @papa-pepper and @smooth.
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I don't care to much for back-biting and prefer direct, respectful discussion.
Thanks for your reply!
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I'm sorry my comment was unclear, the back biting I referred to was the many articles yesterday that were about whales, voting and steemit. You handled it perfectly, I was very impressed. That's why I was so happy to see your article today. You're handling of the situation had no back biting and only respectful discussion, just like you said. Sorry I wasn't more clear.
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Sure, I understand what you meant! Thanks!
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
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In my 3 short days here on steemit, I've noticed (at least in my own little corner) that people are remarkably more civil here than on, say, twitter. My personal observation is that people are more civilized when money is involved. This is just a hypothesis, though.
I really enjoyed this post! Now I have a clear path for if I ever get attacked by a whale :)
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Good hypothesis! You could be correct.
I was impressed by the way most people interacted too!
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if a whale starts aggressively posturing near me, I float like I'm dead, they lose interest quickly because they're huge and need to eat all day long, this tactic works every time!
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:-D
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Indeed! ;-)
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lol
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I'll have to try that! Thanks @reddust!
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
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Anyone who knows me knows how I dislike that anyone can come along and over-ride the generosity of others on anyone's posts. Correct me if I am wrong but I have been led to believe that this community is about freedom of speech, so here is what I think.
Seems to me that most if not all whales have bought the right to be a whale. Either that or they sucked the reward pool dry getting there, would be the only other way and in such a short time of Steemit's life this seems unlikely. Does that buy them the right to over-ride the choices of other community members who decided to vote on someone's post and reward them for it? I disagree with anyone doing that and they are the one's who look bad, not the guy or gal who just went about their posting day trying to succeed. You see the whole point is trying to succeed in this competitive market. Or is it supposed to be snakes and ladders?
I am disappointed in your thought on this papa-pepper. You didn't strike me as someone who believed in socialism.
With that kind of acceptance everyone here better hope Steemit doesn't become popular or the pool will just be evenly spread over more people. Also hope we all don't become popular or it's just ok for someone to change that
While this flagging is still allowed on Steemit we all better not try to succeed too much I guess, unless we can buy the right to do it maybe.
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As I stated earlier, this was not a PR post for @smooth. Currently, @smooth has an idea about how to potentially make steemit better and is exercising the freedom to implement this idea. I can understand the concerns pertaining to steemit payouts, and that it can be a valid concern. Many here struggle with the post payouts on a regular basis.
In regard to downvoting AKA “flagging” @papa-pepper has never intentionally flagged anyone nor do I have any knowledge of ever unintentionally flagging anyone. In many ways, I am very glad that my upvotes don’t matter much.
I have made no claims to socialism in the present or in the past, and I do not believe that what steemit needs is to give every user a nickel every time that they post. I was also not supporting the choices that @smooth was making in regard to downvoting posts, I was only sharing that just as @smooth considered my response to the downvote to be valid, I believe that concerns about post payouts are also valid.
The purpose of this post was to encourage other users from interacting in a respectful and appropriate manner and to discuss issues like adults. There is a great lack of this type of interaction on steemit when users get emotional, and I certainly also had the opportunity to respond emotionally rather than with respect and tact. I am not trying to show how great @papa-pepper is, or how great @smooth is, but just that delicate situations can still be dealt with in a better manner than I have often seen.
I understand what you are saying in regards to others being generous. I have deeply appreciated every bit of support that I have received in my time here. When I saw my rewards diminished, it did not make me feel good. I thought, if only for a second, of doing a farewell post and blaming @smooth. Obviously, I chose to do otherwise, and even if @smooth would not have removed the downvote on my post, I still would have interacted in a respectful way.
I cannot control the beliefs of others or their actions. I do not like the idea of fearing that a good paying post will be “adjusted” by a downvote. I have worked very hard for many months and appreciate the opportunity to earn something on steemit as well. Of course the payouts are not the only reason that I am here, but they are enjoyable.
I was planning on mentioning something to @smooth anyway about (at least) taking more variables into consideration if this payout adjustment downvoting was going to continue, but I have no real relationship with @smooth, so I didn’t know how. This downvote on my post gave me an opportunity, so I took advantage of it. If @smooth stops this activity, good, but I cannot make that happen. If @smooth continues, then hopefully more issues will be taken into consideration.
Until just this second, I wasn't even aware of what happened to @karenmckersie.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@karenmckersie/im-taking-a-break-from-steemit-downvoted-by-smooth-for-no-reason-warning-to-new-members
This is a great example of what I was expressing in my concern. She got payouts of $8.28, $0.42, $0.40, $0.18, $0.77, $2.03, $0.53, & $5.99 prior to the one that @smooth downvoted to being in the $50.00 range. (I just found out that this happened.) When the post payout for the one that was adjusted is viewed within the contest of post history, I'd say that it was about time that @karenmckersie got a good payout.
I'm not supporting whales adjusting the post payouts like this, I was showing that we can choose how to interact, and sometimes it can work out favorably for others too.
Again, I just wanted to lead by example here and demonstrate that other ways of interacting are possible, even when we have the opportunity to be emotional. I think that you can understand that, and thanks not only for your reply, but also for your concern, @digit.
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great post really great, the only thing i want to add is that you acted using logic ( i fan of logic) , other people act using feeling first so thats why we got the results we have. I dont say thats right or wrong just that people acted in different ways and feeling can influence more peopla than logic!
Furthermore as you said you just talked and find a common ground, imagine if you didnt have that person across you and either didnt care at all or reply in a whole different way and you couldnt do anything with words
i just want to say that there are a couple of different scenarios that might happen and happening so in many cases its above our powers to do something or that something has a meaning! if we all just try and find a common groud or the majority of us that only the community will benefit and not only ourselves then bitcoin will be nothing against us :P
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It's always good to count to 10, and maybe get a cup of tea before reacting :)
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if only what you said was a thing in these matters and a couple of others things too religion,politcs etc etc the whole world would change for better, but as a humans we tend to act by feelings first and not logic and if you add and compine a couple of factors more like ''the day i been through'' ''family problems'' ''work'' ''what happens in the world'' etc etc then you know the result :P
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I've seen some good interaction on steemit about religion and politics, which is part of what impressed me about this platform. There was a lot of tact and respect shown in interaction between people who did not agree.... now if only we could do that when money was on the line!
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''now if only we could do that when money was on the line!'' thats where the human greed takes part in :P but i 100% agree if we care less about the money and more about the ''common good'' the community growth then the results would be greater for all and ofc we would earn more money , lets hope more people will start thinking ''community first money second'' and everything will be alright :)
or at least thats whats i believe
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I like what you believe! keep it up!
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I love a good cup of tea! (Not so much on counting as high as 10, but I can do it if I need to)
Excellent advice!
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That is a very positive perspective!
Also, I love logic and would rather not act out of feelings. My life would be over if I chose to follow my feelings every time!
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I'm new here, I still don't know and don't understand many aspects of Steem.
To me looks like everyone is looking for a solution for this huge power whales have, power of killing your post reward and power of making your post overpaid.
So smooth and other whales are downvoting posts. They do that trying to reduce rewards for posts that are overpaid, being upvoted by other whales.
What I do not understand is why Steem has whales, not how whales behave (they can do what they want).
I do not understand why an upvote should worth more than another upvote. It's so obvious to me that every vote should be equal. That a post with 200 upvotes should be paid 2x a post with 100 upvotes.
There is absolute no correlation between how popular are my posts and how good I am in evaluating others' posts. But Steem creates this correlation.
You can buy Steems and power up, this should be ok if used for promoting my posts, not for dramatically changing reward of others' post.
Maybe I'm missing a piece, don't be mad at me, I'm just tring to understand. Explain me!
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It is Steem Power that influences voting power. I have about 23,000 Steem Power, so my vote by itself right now is worth 1 cent. When someone has much more Steem Power, they are a whale and can give you dollars with a single upvote. Newcomers have very little Steem Power, don't influence post payouts much at all, and are called minnows.
Does this help you understand?
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I know this, but it makes no sense to me.
I like Steemit for several reasons, but not for the reward system, wich is crazy unfair.
I think it would be a lot better is every vote had the same influence. Instead, you can pay for having more voting power. How bad does it sound?
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Okay, I understand what you meant now.
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I can totally understand your point of view @bnoise but consider this. In my situation, I've been an active member of Steemit for 7 months. My first few months here barely broke a dollar with very few larger payouts -- I'm talking tens of dollars not hundreds of dollars for posts.
The amount of time dedicated to building a community and writing over 6,000 comments far outweigh the rewards I've received, IMHO. So, a newbie coming in with the expectation of making a lot of money quickly chafes a bit. I personally tell the people I refer to Steemit not to have ANY expectations of earnings until they've built their community. When I see new people I recommend the 3 C's: Content - COMMENTS - Curation. This helps build a SOLID foundation for your Steemit experience.
All you have to do is take a look at @papa-pepper's or my blog page and you will see how our rewards fluctuate. Yes, my last post did extraordinarily well but I wrote a blogging tutorial which was more beneficial to the community and it only made $1.41
I do not agree with whales who downvote to even out the rewards because in the overall scope of things time in + effort + quality + interaction + curation + payout are great equalizers in and of themselves. But that's just my opinion.
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And I undestand your point of view, you worked hard and now you deserve a piece of the pie. Totally fair : )
I'm not here to make money with no efforts, I'm here because other reasons, for example I can write and read what I want, and nobody can delete posts and comments (no censorship).
But the paradox is that I could make money with no effort, if, for some strange reason, my posts were upvoted by some whales.
Let's make an example, and please correct me if I'm wrong:
A and B are new users (minnows), with the exact amount of Steem Power (low amount). W is an old user with lot of Steem Power (whale).
The same could be said for flagging instead of upvoting. If a flag from a whale would be equal to a flag from a minnow, nobody would complain about being flagged by a whale.
I've been reading lots and lots of posts about the problem of how powerful whales behave (colluting, flagging, and so on), maybe my solution would be simplistic, because I'm missing some piece...
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I'll be heading to work for the day, but I'll stop back later to reply.
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
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Awesome job, @papa-pepper! I like to see rational adult reactions.
And bravo to you, @smooth for also responding politely and rationally! :)
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Thanks, it is nice to see.... too bad it doesn't happen more often!
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Agreed
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Yes sorry, Bravo to @smooth! You're right!
@kus-knee (The Old Dog)
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Indeed Old Dog, I can't interact with myself (at least not sanely)... @smooth was considerate as well.
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I like your way of thinking @papa-pepper.
When you treat others with kindness and respect, even if it isn't always reciprocal, you can never really lose!
@kus-knee (The Old Dog)
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Wise words my friend!
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Many thanks, I used to think you were an inspiration on Steemit, but now I think you are generally inspiring! Keep on showing us how to do this stuff.
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Thanks for the encouragement @sift666!
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Nice guide, whale done ;-)
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Whale done????
LOL - I like it, first time I've heard that!
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Make fun, no flags ;-)
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Well, if we going to go full on Socialist then those of us that didn't make a post yesterday need rewards too.
Perhaps @smooth could drop by and upvote this comment, just to be fair and all :)
Seriously, the only flag I ever got was from the person that is doing all the whining about getting flagged lately. Isn't that ironic ?
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I've never been one to enjoy flags, and therefore have not flagged anyone else.
Thanks @mrfoot!
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This post ended very differently than I was expecting when I started reading.
Great points and a great example of a constructive way to interact with the people in the community that are taking actions to level the playing field for all and encourage new contributors.
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I'm glad that you enjoyed it @eroche!
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
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In your case talking about posts small amounts is a bit strange though! When was your last post under 1$?
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The point was that instead of ragequitting or flipping his lid, he and @smooth handled it like adults. The end results were a compromise - not only that, but there was no harm done to the platform (i.e. derogatory posts with exaggerated titles).
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No harm done, indeed. Thanks @rigaronib!
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I know, but posting daily since July, gaining over 1000 followers, and commenting more than 10,000 times requires a lot of up-front effort. These days it seems that I make at least a couple bucks off autovotes alone, so making less than $1.00 has become impossible for me at the moment.
I understand your point though.
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Hi @papa-pepper
Thank you for your post, I think you gave very valuable insights here, it certainly cleared up some things for me.
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I am glad that you enjoyed it @rynow, keep doing what you are doing!
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Nice to see two adults, acting like adults, respecting each others opinions. There is much to learn from that... Cheers to you @papa-pepper and @smooth!
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Thanks @macksby.
I can only attempt to interact appropriately and hope that others will as well. At least we can give one another the opportunity.
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
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Totally agree on your thinking, i never thought about downvoting in order to ensure a more even payout for others. I guess its my lack of knowledge about the technicals on which Steemit has been build. Thank you for this well thought out post, you helped me put things in another perspective :)
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Thanks, and I am glad that you learned something @ourlifestory!
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
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wow, that was cool....
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I'm glad that you liked it.
Does this mean that @boredhuman isn't just concerned about @boredhuman?
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yes
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Good to know. Same here.
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Does it really matter what someone does? if the whales want to silence you there is nothing you can do about it.
https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
post about steemit censorship on other sites and get the word out.
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If it really doesn't matter what someone does @skeptic, then there is no reason to post about steemit censorship on other sites and get the word out, is there?
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There are many reasons to post on other sites about it.
It does not matter what is done to try to fix it if the people in power abuse the system, not that it is pointless to tell everyone about it.
This mentality is the problem not the people pointing out the truth about steemit.
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You are definitely a dose of common sense where raw emotion very easily could have run amok. I think my initial shock at a downvote would have hurt my feelings because I don't get big payouts often - but I would have reached out and plead my case too. Good on you, papa.
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You had a wise reaction to that flag and thanks to this post we could see this big flagging confusion can be resolved without "wars". You've made a good point here! I believe things will change soon, for better!
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Though not every flag will disappear. when we treat others kindly and with respect (even when we don't agree or don't feel like it) we can't lose. I can only control my actions.
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Definitely, that is what anyone should keep in mind! :)
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Hey there, I am new here and have just posted for the first time - but it wasn't very nice to the whales. Why do you think that they behave like they do?
@paradise-found suggesyed I come and find you and I have read some things you wrote. I hope things get better
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I hear the whales have been using you as a dry-humping toy whilst I've been away! Don't worry I've got your back now ;)
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(Well kinda! Balance in all things! Ha ha!)
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I spotted this post and thought of you! https://steemit.com/steemit/@thewiredneuron/a-simple-smooth-observation
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I am new to the steemit community and really enjoyed this article. It was well written, informative and last but not least very funny! Thank you for that. It helps new members like me to understand this community a bit better.
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