The voting bots are being abused and nobody is watching. It doesn't take many people to flag and comment to break the cycle of bad behavior.
I don't care that you don't earn on downvotes. Tell that to any business person and they will laugh in your face.
In restaurants, hotels and anywhere else, owners and stakeholder use their funds to keep the place clean.
Put some eyes on the site and use your stake to clean this up! Or don't.
The solutions are already around, and have been reasoned out many times if anyone bothers reading and considering. Tragedy of the commons. This place is seriously becoming depressing.
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Yeah, it is but, there are still people trying and struggling to at least create something worth reading here but, who really gives a crap?
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When the rewards algo doesn’t give a crap about rewarding those who give a crap as much as those who don’t give a crap..
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It gets to a point where those who give a crap, have no crap left to give.
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It gets to a point
Where those who give a crap, have
No crap left to give.
- tarazkp
I'm a bot. I detect haiku.
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i love you @haikubot
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^^or looking at
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Seems to be a business some demand, but we can take some action if we don't like it. My vote is not enough to really affect any trending posts, but it seems not many whales really care. At least some good posts are getting up there without buying votes, but it's turned into an expensive arms race now. I suggest we get a new Trending page that somehow does a better job. Hot is better.
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The downvotes will just mean more rewards for the status quo, ie misuse of inflation..
to clarify: under the circumstance
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huh? but isn't that the name of the game? Inflation. It's all about inflation.. 60% - 65% of inflation goes to our early miner whales... they are cashing out. Traditional bag-holders are the SBD holders/users... content producers/voters. Most users don't have the education to grasp how what they do on steemit all works against them.
Quote: "Misuse of inflation"
Agreed, but it's designed that way... for the happy few... with lot's of fun...guys.
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On second thought, maybe you were being sarcastic.. anyway, steem is the best!
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You mean your plot to return all the rewards to the same 10 authors who created the situation we currently have. Evil smile. Just teasing.
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Nothing can be worse than what we currently have haha.. what’s the inflation for?
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Actually, yes it was worse when the Selected few were the ONLY thing that could get to trending. There wasn't a single thing anyone could do to gain attention.
Now at least some good things get up there, If people would flag garbage and the bot owners would remove their votes it would be fine.
Your OWN post asking for change admitted you want to earn more money for doing nothing. That isn't how most investment works. Passive investments are usually either Interest or growth of the company.
Not getting paid every day to watch your stake grow. ;)
Your ideas sound great to those who didn't watch it happen. In theory they make a lot of sense. In reality, the autovoters will just get pointed to those who earn a lot and we will be right back to where we started. We already know how much you curate and engage. We need stakeholders who are active and curate.
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You completely assessed and reasoned out everything in your writing wrongly, in my opinion. It's the tragedy of the commons and abuse is being widely distributed and the easiest path is to sell or trade votes, so good luck getting people to flag, especially having it as a sustained activity.
My activity on Steem has fallen off the cliff ever since I realised the problem. But still, my "doing of nothing" is only voting for myself at 1%-2%, which grew to about 5%-10% recently. Account curation is certainly way better than just pumping out posts and self-votes all the time for the sake of it. I could just call it a day and make life much easier by just selling off the votes. But those would just be going to more abuse.
Yeah tell that to the vote traders and all. How about risk-free vote trading ventures? I've been holding out for the past year and just about to go reclaiming 100% of my votes, but I'm not doing it. If I do it with the rest then I'm using my allocated slice of the inflation 100% on myself and many would go this route as time goes on. Which is why I'm proposing 50% because I think that's the best the network will be able to achieve. Can't expect 100% of inflation going entirely to "good use". Now it's less than 25%.
You just seem beyond comprehending the current predicament and that the previous situation was based on quadratic rewards, without any of the elements in the proposal I've put forth like extra downvotes, rewards curve between linear and quadratic, and 50% curation rewards. There'll be side effects of course, but the point is not to leave those that curate and engage in the dust.
Sure I agree we need more stakeholders who are active and curate, but more specifically those that can also fund those who do. Still, this activity is currently much less profitable than just trading it or using it all on oneself, so I'm not sure if we should trick more folks into actively curating under the circumstance, hence the proposal to put things in the middle-ground. The point again is not to leave those that curate and engage in the dust. Steem's current economy is fundamentally not making this possible and is giving people $1000 everytime they take a shit in public.
I got nothing against whatever people are doing. The incentives are just not aligned between profit maximisation and the good of the platform atm.
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To re-route the debt (investment of the herds) into the pockets of... fill in the gaps...
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Steem .. umm... on... !?
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@whatsup,
The whole STEEM world is depend on the game of curation! More you make, more you gain! (I mean curation :P)
Cheers~
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Some of us are watching and actually doing something while wasting endless hours.
https://github.com/themarkymark-steem/buildawhaleblacklist
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How many votes does buildawhale cast a day about?
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These days, 60-120
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Will the change in the upvote in HF20 be retroactive for all posts that were already posted and voted, but less than 7 days old?
Does HF20 mean that now the linear time factor increase of 0-30 minutes will decrease to 0-15 minutes?
What does it mean to return to the reward pool?
For the vote to return to the reward pool of its post, or for it to return for the global reward pool, or for it to return to the posts' rewards part of the global reward pool?
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You got a 66.23% upvote from @sleeplesswhale courtesy of @stimialiti!
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I assume not, but not 100% sure.
From what I understand, the reverse auction is 30 minutes and if you vote at 14 mins 50 seconds, you will only return a tiny portion of your vote to the reward pool.
When a vote is cast, a certain amount of
rsharesare claimed from the reward pool, this represents how much that vote will be worth (which does adjust slightly with how the pool is being currently used). With this change, anything in the first 15 minutes will not be deducted from the reward pool,Global reward pool is how I understood it.
I will check to see if I am wrong in these assumptions, but that's how I understand it right now.
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You got a 100.00% upvote from @luckyvotes courtesy of @stimialiti!
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This comment has received a 100.00 % upvote from @steemdiffuser thanks to: @stimialiti.
Bids above 0.1 SBD may get additional upvotes from our trail members.
Get Upvotes, Join Our Trail, or Delegate Some SP
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Is it possible for the larger vote orders to manually curate?
edit: before the vote.
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No, not unless I stay at a computer 24/7 and watch every window and change how the bot works totally. I have a limit on how much people can bid and in itself cannot get a post anywhere near trending.
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Just wondering if there was a curator hired to do the job on the larger ones for a small percentage of the bid. I know it isn't 'your job to judge' but essentially it is an endorsement of the content on the vote. The removal of the vote is a different thing altogether.
What would be interesting is if a bid comes in and is not approved, the curator still takes the small percentage for doing their job. That way, it is more more likely to attract quality posts since there is an actual cost to it. if all large bidbots did the same, not much shit would make it to trending at least considering there will be a range of curators. What it means is that if the curators are somewhat representative of the platform, trending via bidbot would be representative of the community. Trending requires many bots (mostly) to get to trending so if some curators refuse the bid on shit won't have 1500 dollars on it and pointless won't have 300.
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The Church of Piglet understands but does not share your anger, as that is just not on, what with us being a church and all.
We did do our little bit today during our Trend Watching session, and only got one threat so far for a retaliatory flag.
We do understand that the small fish may be afraid of getting whopping great big flags in return when they flag, but strangely, the ones with the largest stakes and the most to lose when Steemit fails are suspiciously absent when it comes to flagging. Maybe the delegation game is too profitable to care about content and Steemit image anymore.
Anyway, we will resteem this, because we care too and because we applaud this kind of posting. Some things can't be said often enough, even when nobody listens.
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Let's discuss this 6 months later, after bots take over the place, everything is automated and steem worth under 0.1 :)
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If nobody cleans this is what we get.
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A user-free, automated Steemit! I wrote a proposal for that once, maybe they didn't get I was being sarcastic.
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Kisses!
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Problem is that I don't even bother to look at the trending page. Why would anyone look at it? I've tried to make it a point to go there and flag a few things occasionally though.
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I water the flowers and ignore the weeds.
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There is another effect of having bots tipping the scales for one post over another. That is, it gives a false impression of what is popular and that makes marketing oneself to the communities here much harder without having an accurate picture of what "sells" on this site (not that I really concern myself with that on my own blog). I think it leads new users to believe that all they have to do is post crappy pictures to be sucessful here because they may not be aware of the bot issue. When that sucess doesn't come they get fed up and leave.
I don't know what the answer is. I know that a lot of people say that they don't look at trending and that is fine on a personal level (I fall into that group too) but trending is still the face that we present to the world and that is an issue we can't address by turning away from it.
As for myself, my account is pretty tiny in terms of SP so I don't know how much change I can effect. I have helped flag down some people for stealing content but generally my goal is to grow my account to the point that I can make a real difference. I just powered up everything I had and to over 100 SP which isn't much but it is a start.
I do hope things can be worked out. I like this site despite it's issues and I like a lot of the people here. I want to see us all do well if we are willing to work for it and I would like to see steemit really take off.
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I can only speak for myself, but it is a mood. We need more eyes on the site and we will get them.
I hear you on the popular thing, which is why I feel like if they knew someone was watching and flagging it would happen less often
I can't prove it though.
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This is an honest question as I don't know all the ins and outs of flagging. Is the risk/reward ratio too high for small accounts on steemit to flag someone? Chances are if someone is abusing bots on the trending page they likely have a lot of influence on the platform. So if a small account flags them to only get a flag in return from the user as "payback" wouldn't it have a much more negative effect on the small user? I'm assuming the weight of a flag is equivalent to the accounts SP.
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I get the point and appreciate the question.
It depends, many of these accounts don't have much steem power and they are just abusing the bots. Most but not all of them are pretty safe to flag if you don't make a big drama over it.
However, for those who don't wish to risk it. Flag some one your own size that is spamming or creating low value material. I get the risk...
Isn't not doing the right thing out of fear.. The same as doing the wrong thing? Both are dishonest and greedy in my opinion. Each person has to ask themselves.
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It's starting to get crazy. All the plagiarism and shitposts Gonna have to clean up the place.
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Some posts are better than others, I try to make every post great but of course they will not appeal to everyone. I think giving positive feedback with upvotes is more important ... if every post that an author does is shit that’s a whole different story.
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Totally agree but when the same guy is getting hundreds for a couple of snap shots for days, and I am the only one flagging it... That is stupid. Especially when so many people are whining.
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I get the whole negative effect of bots. There are so many spam accounts using them and I believe if anyone should be downvoted it’s the flagrant abusers. I wouldn’t never downvote your posts because I follow you and see the good you do and believe you deserve to use your account how you see fit.
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OK here is where I disagree with everything you ever said and everything you stand for and your whole reason for existing.
I think flagging sucks and Steemit would be better without it.
I'd like flagging to be replaced by down voting with a downvote being the average value of all the upvotes (so bugger all)
Anyone who flags a post with $500 of bot upvotes is going to get flagged straight back, because that is standard practice for revenge on flaggers and thankfully it stops most flagging from happening throughout Steemit. (yes I hate flaggging)
The trending page has always been utter crap and Steemit would be better off without that too.
If there was a cap on how much could be spent with bots on any single post I think that would be a damn good idea - and $100 would be a good cap.
Bots are here to stay, but crap posts getting a $1000 of bot upvotes is a bad look.
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Yep. I surrender.
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For ages, we've been yelling that the Trending sucks.
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There is a difference between...
Plagiarized photos going to trending daily.... and not liking the content. A HUGE difference.
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To be honest, I don't really like crap photos going to trending much either; I at least disagree with the rewards. But I will readily admit that could be just me.
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i know a handful of people that could beautify that ever so popular #photography tag that i have all but quit using because everyone has a camera now-a-days
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#photography is full of spammers.
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I don't bother looking at trending or hot. I found those I am interested in and through them find others like yourself. I can't stop those who wish to sell their voting power, nor those who wish to purchase it and it does not harm my immediate experience here as I don't even glance there.
I figure if Steemit inc wants to fix their demo project for their SMT's they can, but to waste my time trying to fix it for them is counter productive for my experience. The end result would probably be my getting flagged down to nothing while business as usual continues.
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Yep, I exploded. I was wrong. I actually agree with you. It isn't my stake and it isn't my investment.
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It's ok. Better to rant and move on than bottle it up. We all have our breaking points and in hindsight often leaves us scratching our head that we don't view things as clear cut as our mind tells us we should.
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Not alot of sense in flagging bots when the rewards just go to the next one in line,...
When flagged rewards get burned it helps everybody, not just the next post down the trending line.
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I would like to think that if the community broke out their balls and their flags, it would deter others from abuse, because it would cost them money.
No, the community would rather whine and wait for someone else to fix the problem.
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Doesnt make any sense to flag a dime from a 800sbd post if it just goes to the 799sbd post under it.
Once burning flagged rewards was normalized, i think more people would do it.
But nobody is listening to any ideas from the blacklist.
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This is why it makes sense to me...
If 5 dolphins and a bunch of minnows flag it. It makes a dent big enough to hurt his financial gains. If they know people are watching and they will lose they will stop.
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Im down with that, except that any flagged rewards just go to the next trending post.
They should be burned instead, then it makes sense to have used the vote power.
Otherwise we are peeing into the wind.
A better strategy against the bots may be to overbid them, then every buyer loses money.
Ive never done it myself, but ive been told its effective.
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I's worse than before "bot trending". I'm flagging trending (at least authors who have more than 2 posts on trending) for long time.
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You flag some crap content and that just moves reward to another crap content, doesn't it ?
So, first thing I would expect to be implemented (if you really want to bring some sense into this game) is the flagged reward to be actually burned, not just redistributed.
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You make the assumption that no one is creating good content which is insulting to everyone who is here and trying.
Also, though I acknowledge this is not a bad idea.
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No, I just make the assumption that crap content is overwhelming here. So if I bother to flag some post and take away 20 cents, maybe 2 cents would go to some good content and something like 18 cents to the same crap.
That's just not efficient.
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Would you say that botting needs to be taken down all together? Where does bot use end and abuse start?
I don't visit trending pages a lot, if at all and mostly by accident so I wouldn't know about the quality there.
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No, the bots are fine. People need to use their flags and do their part to clean the site.
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It would be nice if great content creators like yourself use the bots more instead of not using them and allowing shitposters and undetected plagiarists to take advantage of them instead.
We are most profitable on average, and if great content creators lowball us, then shitty content creators will use us instead.
Yesterday you made 100% ROI, or you DOUBLED your MONEY using one bidbot. However, would you have spent more money and more bots you would have NAILED it to the trending top of the list.
I would love to see you on top trending, profitable as it is on average, I would love to have you be seen by millions of people from time to time, and other great content creators.
It can only happen if you all start taking the MARKETING-PART of your blogging seriously enough, IE. More serious then shitposters.
For $500 SBD spent wisely on 10 top bots should give you quite the return on your investment + thousands of frontrunners from many guilds including @frontrunner.
I am not here to push my services on you, just give you a perspective from my eyes as I cater to thousands of people every month.
Great Content Creators need to learn from the hustlers, and the hustlers need to learn from the Great Content Creators.
Good luck, and may you have many good WINs in your future.
@Booster
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It would be nice if you gave us more money so we can accept bribes for good posts instead of bad.
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It doesn't take many flags and comments to bring those post down to not being profitable. It is a combined problem with not owning the need to keep the site clean. Anyone who isn't helping clean is part of the problem and the bots that are allowing themselves to be abused are also part of the problem.
Decentralized means WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE
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Does having a larger stake also mean having a larger responsibility? It should, even if only because of long-term self-interest, but I am not sure it is working out well.
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One would think... and the site is based on the principle that the largest stakeholders would have the highest motives to protect our investments.
It seems that the dolphins are the ones who are trying. But maybe I am just cranky today and feeling in over my head regarding trying to make any difference at all.
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You spoke out; blessings be upon you.
We are supposed to say things in such ways.
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The flaw in our thinking is the belief that as long as the long term rational incentives are there, it will all work itself out. The proper incentives are necessary but not sufficient. To build a well functioning society we need those long term vested interest, but it also takes a concerted effort to make it work, and accountability (because not everyone is driven by positive long-term-rational incentives).
Democracy doesn't 'just work' everywhere it is put in place (very many examples of that), it needs the political will and culture to make it work. The same is true of crypto governance.
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Proper governance? Jesus, just use your fucking flags for abusive behavior. What a bunch of children.
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The rent bots are a massive part of the problem. Garbage posts at the front page draw in a huge amount of voting power, those from the bots and then those that have to clean it up after. If the bots weren't accepting bribes in the first place it would take much less voting power to clean it up.
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I have a great title for your next post: "I admit it, I was wrong! Bots and delegating to them is not fine!"
<evil grin>
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lol
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You may be interested in an idea for a decentralized anonymous CAPCHA scheme, which was proposed in an old posting of mine. A link to the post is included below for your reading pleasure.
https://steemit.com/steem/@novacadian/a-decentralized-capcha-annonymous-proof-of-brain-verification
Even if only used as a tool by SMT distributors, it would be handy to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff on the blockchain.
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Maybe because there are more bots than humans here...
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I hope that is not so, but now you have made me wonder...?
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Wait, you actually thought the trending page didn't suck?
Haha hahahahaaa******aa
Hahahahaha
Hahahahahaahahhaaaaaa
Hold on I am catching my breath.
Hahahahaaaaa
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That is so helpful... What are YOU doing about it?
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:)
I use to flag quite a bit but I gave up because I had no help from people above me
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The trending page should be what people look at for a good read or something interesting. I honestly don't even visit it as it is not a true reflection of this platform. I honestly think they should change the name to something else. Trending should be all about well written articles.
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Every user is responsible for cleaning the site. We are all stake holders. I have no problem with promotion, I have a problem with unchecked abuse.
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I stopped viewing the trending page months ago. Even now I barely visit the hot page, thankfully has saved my eyes and mind off some shitposts
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I feel ya on that. I see it more clearly the longer I've been here, now I'm a newbie so I don't use bots at all. I don't have the best content on here, I just post about my life and what I share is enjoyable to me. I have never blogged before coming here, but I love the people I follow on here and I learn from them.
Yes I agree.....the bot thing is making it unfair in my eyes.
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Abuse is about the user not the tools.
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And it's not about how the system was set up. Sweet.
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Privately, on the other hand, I am, of course, just as pissed off as you are. Just saying. Can't complain about things on this account though; I promised myself not to.
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I should have used my other account for this. But, I thought... I don't complain or bitch much.. maybe if they see it is coming from this account it will have more creditability. I don't know... I had a bad moment and now it is on the blockchain. Shrugs.. oh well.
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You'd have a lot more influence if you posted these on your @haejin account. Just sayin'.
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Haha! You are right! Thanks for the giggle.
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It is where it should be, I think.
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I feel the pain , it seriously hampered by STEEM experience , here is a minor workaround I found for myself
https://steemit.com/teamaustralia/@itstime/this-one-trick-will-make-steemit-hot-trending-section-less-sucky-in-2-5-secs
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The trending page really does suck.
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Only whales and old users get rewards . Up voting bots take them to tending and thet get everything. Even if they are working hard, there are newbies that are also working hard and are extremely demotivated when the their post that took a whole day is drowned in the new post section and no one even notices it .
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building an audience is everyone's responsibility. Cleaning the site is everyone's responsibility.
There is NO whining there is ownership. The bots are there so some can get attention. But we all have to read, clean and take care of the site. We don't have a boss, we don't have police..
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You think people care? They mindlessly upvote the same guy since steemit started just as everyone else is to get curation awards . Steemit is a blogging site , not an upvite dumb pictures site.
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Thanks for sharing. Now get back to work.
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Ha ha! You're right. I snapped. I need an episode!
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Quadratic rewards meant the bigger a payout, the more influence a given steemian had over the outcome, up OR down.
We threw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Yeah, because that was being abused also
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Saw your flag and comment on the "Colorchallenge Friday Sky-Blue : Big Reception Stage" post from the trending page. I plan on making a post on the topic as the trending page seems to become flooded with garbage too often.
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Did you flag it also? Did you flag anything today?
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No I haven't. I just made a post about it and expressed my opinion regarding the situation in which the trending page is for a while. I never flagged anything. I'm plankton by the way...
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No body cares and that's the attitude all the time people go in trending earlier it was all because of unique content but not just buy votes and make it to the top its that easy reputation number is a hilarious thing now
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Yes, Promoting your post is perfectly fine but if people promoting an post which don't hold any value or efforts should not be promoted because promotion word is associated with an service which holds something which can provide value so in my opinion Bid Bots before voting any post, there should be validation of posts.
And let's hope that in future we can see posts which can give value to the platform and that is really important because when we want see the growth of the Steem Blockchain and Steemit then we all are representatives and our posts are our Resume so we have to act accordingly.
Wishing you an great day and stay blessed. 🙂
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What action have you taken to correct the bot abuse?
If some peoples objective is to make money and use the bots to do so, which are free to use as one sees fit, how is this abuse? (Does there need to be some type of government to solve the issue?)
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No, I've always been an advocate of no government needed just active users who use their flags to correct the issues.
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You are right. We need sanitation here on steemit, the voting bot are being abused a lot
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Every user needs to use their stake to keep the site clean, from big to tiny.
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As much as I see nothing wrong with bots and I use them too sometimes. I think does who own the bots should be generous and vote for free, profit can still be made this way.
When it comes to flagging a lot of people see it has a negative thing and so they don't use it, so this issue might not be solved with flagging.
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If people flagged obvious abuse it would stop. The end.
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Fixing a problem is a good thing ... may i add ... once you're done wallowing in the idea of that "filth" then get out of it. Then start to actually post good content instead of talking about bad content. Stop looking at the trending page, solve the problem in a better way. Stop complaining and start doing something about it. Aka stop wallowing in the filth you're complaining about. (I know @steempeak has a way to help solve problems just gonna take a bit of time to get it implemented in the meantime I'm not gonna wallow)
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Yeah, I don't usually wallow and for the most part I agree.
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The trend stinks, and new users do not have a voice in Steemit, they do not even respond to our comments.
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Every user has a responsibility to keep the site clean. Tiny users should flag other tiny users who are doing spammy shit. This post is not about blaming, it is about owning the responsibility to clean the site!
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If I flag someone, I will only win enemies, and they will sink me before I can swim in the ocean.
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Lmao!
Making such bold statement and ending it with "or don't" makes this thread uncalled for then.
I admire you but this sitting on the fence thingy is very strenous for me. Which is it? What do you wish to see? Investors should clean up or they shouldnt?
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I use my stake every day, with both up and down votes. I am who I can control. I guess whether or not they use theirs is up to them. Which is why I worded it that way.
They don't want to clean because it costs them money. I do clean, because I think not cleaning costs me money.
What do you do? Troll?
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Yes. Not trolling costs me money.
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haha, fair enough
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i never check the trending page
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That's right and it's very painful to see such a situation.
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what are you talking about? I go through and mute all the crap in my trending page and it goes away. It's all clean. I recommend all people who have small votes do the same. I do my part by not investing my money in this place. Once and a while I waste a flag on something that is grotesquely overpaid for. It's like scooping out a lake with a spoon.
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@whatsup i hope you wont use bots to make this article trend
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I'm considering it! :)
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The basic need for now @whatsup many are leaving as their post not curated...i m doing my best to share something with all i come across
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I'm not that concerned with those who leave because they can't make free money.
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I'm not that concerned
With those who leave because they
Can't make free money.
- whatsup
I'm a bot. I detect haiku.
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I actually find myself replying to the bots. Not sure who is real any more.
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you are right bro, its really happen . its need to clean All the plagiarism and shitposts.
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If you feel annoyed and just have to put out a flag, I have just the thing for you:
https://steemit.com/photography/@ivanuralsky/the-colosseum-rome
Happy to help!
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