OK?

gtg (70) · 6 years ago

Steemit is actually the worst when it comes to censorship. Anyone with money can censor you.

Not true.

It's so disappointing that people still can't get it.

Steemit is not Steem.
Nobody can stop you from posting on Steem.
Nobody can stop you from reading Steem posts.
Flagging is not censorship. They don't affect posting or reading.
Visibility depends on UI.
You can chose UI, you can clone and/or build your own.
You can use API.
If nodes are limiting you, you are free to start your own.

Steem is a great tool, but as with any other tool: in smart hands it can improve our lives
but not only smart people use it, as proven by many.

$0.58

12 votes

jbgarrison72 (49) · 6 years ago

@gtg, I think you're missing @crypto.piotr's point.... that is, IF the Steemit platform/UI received enough activity and drew enough attention to STEEM, THEN you would start to see REAL censorship.

His point that Steemit is the only "popular" UI/platform right now, and the crap flagging system completely muzzles "unpopular" opinion for anyone not heavily staked (and usually drives them from the platform (and therefore, the token/blockchain))... you can basically say that IS "de facto" censorship.

I'm not saying you're "technically" wrong, from your angle, but you seem to be arguing semantics rather than addressing @crypto.piotr's relevant points (despites terms and definitions), namely, that Steemit (and Steem) are not facilitating wide dissemmination of free expression to the degree we'd like (AND, that it will possibly only get worse if the "powers that be" decide to take interest).

$0.13

7 votes

gtg (70) · 6 years ago

So we disagree about what exactly censorship means, because to me, it's when you can't express your thoughts in a way that others can know it.
Maybe flagging makes it a bit harder for uneducated users to access them, but over time users will find ways (discovering new front-ends, etc).
Freedom, including freedom of speech is of a great value.
The Steem blockchain is a tool able to help you to achieve that.
But freedom is not a free lunch.
It is not served on a plate.

7 votes

hobo.media (64) · 6 years ago

I hate to disagree with you bro, but I feel I should. A lot of the witnesses believe in flagging, which I think is a contradiction to the concept of Steem. @themarkymark even expressed frustration with @fulltimegeek intent of censoring Mark. When challenged by a commenter that it was not censorship Mark agreed, but it did not seem real, but a politically correct answer. Mark was frustrated with what was happening, and it was effectively shutting down his ability to communicate with his readership.

We need to have a deep conversation on censorship. I will gladly do a @pennsif podcast conversation with any or all the witnesses you want about this. Let's take this to public debate for the community to decide. I really think we need to hash this out, not in comments, but in a real, friendly and substantial way.

There is such a thing as financial censorship. People in crypto are talking about this a lot now. Patreon, Youtube, Paypal, Stride, iTunes and likely many other financial avenues for content producers are effectively censoring by means of the purse strings. We need to recognize this as censorship, and we need to recognize that null and voiding other upvotes on content is censorship as well. Its not just censorship of the content but also of the individuals that believe in that content and try to support and reward it with their upvotes.

Flagging, I argue, is also unnecessary in the sense that everyone has voting ability according to their investment in the network and when they vote for something, they are in essence already voting against something else for a larger share of the rewards. But flagging allows for precise attacks, we know they are attacks too, this is why the pro-flaggers want anonymity, because they fear retaliation. I strongly do not believe in that kinds of thinking, at least fulltimegeek does what he does in the open.

I believe there are better ways to encourage quality content on Steem and I'd be happy to discuss those ideas in more detail. Perhaps I need to make a serious post on the subject.

kimmysomelove42 (58) · 6 years ago

So far, you make the most legit clarity about this topic I can see. I think it's a good idea to have healthy debate about the topic. 3rd density polarities create friction form, form gets stronger, other forms want to control and dominate, human need for control outweighs point of healthy ecosystem; fall of fiat currencies are inevitable... they twist and turn and fall, then there shall be another form that takes power.. form of STEEMIT... lol ( I think it was Tone Vays or one of the big trader guys that said all it would take is one billionaire to throw enough money into crypto markets to collapse or control the entire ecosystem, and it appears of late that Goldman Sachs is doing just this, keeping it all at some bear market jail? I personally have no idea. as I've got gardening to do, and wish only to blog with viable inspiring Stemmians! )

$0.21

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

I agree with you @kimmysomelove42

It's a pleasure to read @hobo.media comments. So much wisedom in them.

Cheers
Piotr

themarkymark (78) · 6 years ago

It is more trolling than censorship. The messages are still available, just most people would never see them.

hobo.media (64) · 6 years ago

I'm not able to share your view, but I appreciate your response. I like your posts by the way.

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themarkymark (78) · 6 years ago

Take a look at new for 60 seconds. Then imagine what would happen if no one was afraid of being flagged and could post anything that wanted taking from the reward pool we all share.

hobo.media (64) · 6 years ago

Honestly, I really don't believe I've ever been flagged. If I have, I don't remember when it happened. My concern is with its power to be manipulated. So, while I realize the pro-flagging mentality is going to be the winning side of history, at the very least, I think it needs adjustment.

I realize that some filtering is good, but I would prefer a decentralized style of flagging. For example, let's say a flag was pending and resulted in a random selection of 1000 or more steemians being invited to either upvote or downvote the content and if the majority upvoted the pending flag is rejected but if the majority downvoted the flag goes through and all the downvotes are counted against the rewards.

If we did it this way, nobody can just go on a flagging frenzy because they can afford it and like to feel good about themselves. They would have to have enough random people agree. I have an issue with the whimsical power that is available to the individual or even a biased group. There are many biases and the content on Steem should not be controlled by one narrative.

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Show 7 more replies

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Good insights brother. We need to openly discuss the topic of flagging and censorship on the blockchain to find a healthy middle way.

hobo.media (64) · 6 years ago

Thanks!

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @gtg

Maybe flagging makes it a bit harder for uneducated users to access them,

I really wonder how educated and disconnected from regular users you must be if you have this approach. I can only envy your knowledge and resources.

But please look around you. Do you think that it matters that some data would be "present" on STEEM blockchain if it would not be accessable by most used interfaces?

Let's face reality, not focus on technical aspects of "censorship".

yours
Piotr

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redpossum (48) · 6 years ago

Oh, please. That's like saying, "Hey, if you don't like what's printed in the newspaper, feel free to start your own".

And insulting the intelligence of those who disagree with you is certainly no way to make friends, indeed quite the opposite. Not to mention that inserting animated GIF's in your post is highly annoying.

gtg (70) · 6 years ago

"Hey, if you don't like what's printed in the newspaper, feel free to start your own".

No, it is not the same, you don't need to start your own blockchain, what's printed on the blockchain, stays on the blockchain whether some party chose to display in their own copy of it or not.

No, it is not about the intelligence of those who disagree with me (really, I'm not always right), and absolutely nothing to do with @crypto.piotr's comment.

inserting animated GIF's in your post is highly annoying.

Might be, to some, but it takes less space in the blockchain than a thousand words.

redpossum (48) · 6 years ago

Well, alright, that was a good answer. I suppose I now understand your meaning somewhat better, thank you.

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julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Thanks for the clarification @gtg, much appreciated.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @gtg

Thank you for your amazing comment. I really appreciate and value your reply. Obviously I see few things differently and let's start with this one:

It's so disappointing that people still can't get it.

Why is it disappotining that people are still learning and discussing such a topics? If everyone will already "get it" then we can assume that there is not enough "fresh blood" :)

Let's see those kind of discussions as a great opportunity so people like yourself can share their knowledge.

Steemit is not Steem.

Obviously.

Nobody can stop you from posting on Steem. Nobody can stop you from reading Steem posts.

Ehm seriously? So how to do it if you're just a regular user and you would like to read post that is marked as "banned" and not being shown on Steemit?

The fact that records are somewhere out there on STEEM blockchain and people with skills could "get to it" means very little for "regular joe". Wouldn't you agree?

If nodes are limiting you, you are free to start your own.

My dear @gtg. It's clear to me that you do not understand how things are being perceived by "normal" users :) This advice is just making me ... well, smile. it did make me smile.

Yours
Piotr

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master-set (64) · 6 years ago

Flagging is bad IMHO. BUT they cannot truly censor opinions, only demonetize it and for a price - anyone who censors is actually LOSING money.
So I'll say: nothing is perfect but TV < YouTube < Steemit < Steem ecosystem < Crypto ecosystem... and we will see a better tools for free speech as tech evolves

$0.32

6 votes

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

Hey positive approach and vision there. Better tools coming. Flagging means there is a judging body who administers the blockchain for us, or even an AI algo, which would be worse. A difficult middle ground to find.

$0.06

master-set (64) · 6 years ago

hope so

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Hi @master-set

Thank you for accepting my invitation (memo) and dropping by. I appreciate your comment.

Cheers, Piotr

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guysellars (66) · 6 years ago

Hello Piotr. Thank you for making me aware of this post. In this case I tend to agree with your assessment of the situation. While @julianhorack speaks to the original desire to have blockchain allow us to reclaim sovereignty, we are now seeing the impact of laws across the globe that are once again limiting freedoms.

The vast majority of blockchain applications, including coins and tokens, are tied to various jurisdictions. And, in each of these jurisdictions, governments will enforce their own laws. It may only a matter of time before we see the same censorship in blockchain apps that we see in traditional venues.

One of the reasons for this is the overarching concern of governments to control bad actors. One way to do this is through KYC and AML which I recently addressed in KYC and AML are Good - Yum. Essentially governments are under pressure to maintain law and order. So, as more bad actors take advantage of the blockchain freedoms, more controls will be exerted.

There may be a few exceptions. The obvious is Monero, which I believe is the only truly decentralized coin. The other is EOSIO, which as essentially separated the blockchain infrastructure/ownership from the actual blockchain. An interesting concept that has yet to be tried in a court to the best of my knowledge.

There are a few decentralized autonomous organizations/corporations, DAO or DAC respectively. Again, their Dapp can be tied to a locality, I think they too can be censored.

So, while we always push the freedom movement, we need to consider the rights of others and ultimately there are limitations.

This was a great topic and I appreciate the opportunity to get involved.

$0.24

jbgarrison72 (49) · 6 years ago

Well stated, even if I continue to disagree with you @guysellars. I believe regulation of any kind will simply hamstring crypto while keeping it trapped in the race against government currency manipulation... a race that crypto will never win (and the penalty for loss is to fall out of use and become irrelevant).

The ONLY way crypto has a chance to compete (and therefore sustain it's own marketshare) is to change it's playing field to one in which a fiat currency has no legs to run on. That IS the deregulated space on the electronic wild frontier (and yes, there are "bandits" but, those bandits suffer from the "free market" as much as "good actors" do.

Regulated (non-free) markets are built to stifle competition and feed unhealthy monopolies.

guysellars (66) · 6 years ago

Thank you for expressing your opinion, which I actually think is the wish of many. Perhaps we can agree that, whether regulated or not, we appreciate the forums that allow us to express our opinions and discuss critical topics together.

Good to meet you @jbgarrison72. I hope we will run into each other more often.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @jbgarrison72, @guysellars

Personally I believe that this race has been already lost. Crypto and blockchain were created to serve humans.

And humans that have power and resources will always win.

Yours
Piotr

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jbgarrison72 (49) · 6 years ago

Not all humans with power and resources are bad although in our current paradigm, bad actors tend to get a greater share of the rewards.

In a true/ideal free market, power and resources will naturally funnel to those who provide the best service for the lowest price. :)

The greatest good is always served by emergent harmony arising through struggle.

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julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Good to read your comment sir. I see your point that on the ground governments can reach your computer terminal or node and shut it down if they want. I'm hoping that there are enough decentralized nodes scattered all over the planet so that some will always continue, even if the others are taken offline. If a one world government comes into power we may have to head for the hills and transmit our pirate signal from an unknown location, though those are fast disappearing with all the tech around today.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @guysellars

Brilliant comment buddy! Seriously great read.

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

I also never heard about EOSIO. Love to learn something new yeyeye

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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bitfiend (59) · 6 years ago

There is a big difference between someone who can censor and an entire company that can censor. There is a fine line between decentralized and censorship. Some people think that a decentralized platform means do whatever the heck you want, which includes plagiarism, posting a porn picture with no content, and the inevitable one liners with bidbot abuse. This is where flags come in.

Sure a whale can simply disagree with you and censor your posts by downvoting, but that is still a needed mechanic of the platform. Reason being that anarchy, or decentralization, typically doesn't work due to human greed. Aside from the potential that Steem/Steemit has, it is also a social experiment that I for one, have never seen before. The big question is...

Can we govern ourselves?

In my opinion, if and when the higher ups take notice of this platform and want to get involved, we as a community should have safeguards already in place to combat any kind of abuse or plagiarism that would be deemed unworthy of rewards.

There are too many people more focused on upvoting than downvoting for various reasons, but that doesn't mean that the downvoting system is wrong. It might have a few flaws but censorship will always be needed, whether something is decentralized or not.

If there were no flags, for example, there would no doubt be child porn floating around on this site (which I have seen in the past), and surely that post is still lurking somewhere, whether it was flagged or not. If authorities caught wind of this, goodbye steem.

So it's not completely censorship free, but how much money is Steemit Inc. making off of content creators?

I think that there is a common misconception of what decentralization means.

"A decentralized system is one which requires multiple parties to make their own independent decisions" In such a decentralized system, there is no single centralized authority that makes decisions on behalf of all the parties.

We each make independent decisions every day on how we want to experience our decentralized utopia here using the Steem blockchain. The rules are stated very clearly in the welcome page, yet people choose to abuse instead. So censorship is inevitable. We as a community have taken a decentralized approach to censorship. Unfortunately censorship occurs even when there is a mere difference of opinion, and there is a fine line as to whether or not some of these censorship occurrences are justified. Is it new content, or is it the same conspiracy that's been on youtube for the last 10 years? Is there something new to add to the topic, or is the author just bringing the same news/facts/ideas to the platform that already exist everywhere else? It's a fine line but some people are willing to cross it.

Without flags, I can't imagine that my content would reach many people because it would get buried a lot faster. At least in this case, the people, the community, those who care about the future of the platform are working together to help fight abuse on the blockchain. In my opinion, this and other platforms like it are the most censorship-free platforms I can find. Not one central entity, government agency or company runs the entirety of the platform. Steemit Inc can go out of business tomorrow and Steem will still be there. It is up to us to govern ourselves on this platform. To govern eachother. This would be the only way to prove that it can be done without a government having to step in and take over, and tell us what we can or can't read, or censor our posts.

Those on the platform who are getting censored could just be going about it the wrong way and they should try a different approach. I have blogged about a controversial topic before and I didn't get flagged, so the censorship isn't always there. However; I did experience a bit of fear that I might get flagged since it was regarding a conspiracy theory, but reality is when it comes to conspiracy theories, those blogging about it don't know the truth any more than those who don't believe in said conspiracy theory. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a theory.

So is it a decentralized platform? Of course it is! Does decentralized mean censorship free? Of course not! Anyone with enough invested in the platform will surely do whatever they can to protect their investment, but for the most part -- keep it original, and you should be okay.

$0.20

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @bitfiend

One of the best comment's I've read today. Thank you for taking the time to write it all.

I can only appreciate that you shared your view with me and others.RESPECT

Sure a whale can simply disagree with you and censor your posts by downvoting, but that is still a needed mechanic of the platform

I just think that noone could "buy" that much power.

We're all choosing witnesses. But we cannot have any impact on those who "keep order with flags". That doesnt seem to be right.

Yours
Piotr

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marvyinnovation (51) · 6 years ago

Dear Mr. Piotr,

Whenever I get a memo from you, my mind tells me that I am going to learn something new that day. I enjoyed reading almost all the articles referred by you and the fact is that it is expanding my knowledge beyond any doubt.

"....Goverments can easily influence Steemit...."

There is no second thought about it.

".......authorities will start paying more attention to this platform, then Ned and entire team will be under heavy pressure."

Of course, until and otherwise, it won't affect them, they will keep mum as if nothing has had happened, but if anything goes against the government, they will go to any extent to stop us from progressing forward. Whether we like it or not, we will have to accept it.

"......Current flag system is the worst tool out there, ..."

With regards to this flagging, let me say a thing, Mr. Piotr.

For example, let's say that a whale is unnecessarily flagging a negative comment(but a correct one) the one who does so will bore the brunt and gets depleted in his reputation rating with an open message visible to all the Steemians in the Steem blockchain about his flagging intent. This is regarding a whale flagging a plankton's comment.

If it is the other way around, the flagging will destroy the reward and this holds good at this point in time.

If suppose, the flagging is justified, the one who did so will be rewarded.

This is my opinion, Mr. Piotr.

$0.19

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

Good points there, government are certainly watching if we raise any of their flags. Lets see what we can do to raise awareness.

And your description of flagging has some relevance if the whales can get outdone for bad flagging like that. It sounds very hopeful.

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marvyinnovation (51) · 6 years ago

@julianhorack, thank you very much for your kind words.

Posted using Partiko Android

$0.00

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Sure my pleasure.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @marvyinnovation

I absolutely loved your comment. First sentence put a huge smile on my face! :)

Of course, until and otherwise, it won't affect them, they will keep mum as if nothing has had happened, but if anything goes against the government, they will go to any extent to stop us from progressing forward

I think a lot has to do with "size" of this community. Goverments would not care about some small gathering in the basement. But if this gathering would already grow then at some point it will attract unwanted attention.

So in a way it's great that Steemit is so small and is not gaining popularity :P

With regards to this flagging, let me say a thing, Mr. Piotr.

Perhaps you can call me "Pete"? :) Mr. Piotr sounds official and also make me feel like old grumpy man hahaha

Enjoy your upcoming weekend

Yours
Piotr

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akdx (66) · 6 years ago

I agree with you that downvoting is just a method to 'shut the mouth' of the person who expresses 'unpleasant' thoughts. In this case steemit it worse than facebook et al. I have seen many accounts being destroyed just because they expressed something which the powerful people didn't like.

$0.19

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Wow that is scary to hear. The reputation can be destroyed so that people don't see your posts. It stays unseen on the blockchain. That is as manipulated as ever. And of course, money still carries a lot of weight and power here. These are dire signs. What can we do to improve it?

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @akdx

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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akdx (66) · 6 years ago

Welcome dear!

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drakernoise (60) · 6 years ago

Hi @piotr,
Thanks for your invitation to such interesting post. I’ve already put my bit answering my thoughts about the subject. I’m not going to duplicate it but can tell you I’m quite sceptical about putting in other hands the merit of giving freedom.
Freedom ( and the real power) lives inside us no one can give it to you nor take it from you but it’s possible to hack you(your brain) and prevent you from realize the fact you’r being manipulated therefore enslaved.
Hugs

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Good point, freedom is a state of mind. I aim to assist others in freeing their minds from illusion or ignorance, to help then awaken to their true identity or state of being. As a free spirit I want others to feel the same sense of liberation or potential for liberation.

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drakernoise (60) · 6 years ago

You can try to assist them once they realize about their lost and want/need to revert.
I’ve tried lot of strategies and found none but making your life an example, a mirror in which others can look at themselves. The image may not like all of them though, diversity comes around.

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Good point, be the example. I used to run around bagging a drum to get the point across in my youth. Now writing works.

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royer94 (48) · 6 years ago

Social media and internet platforms have been a great source of free expression, debate, and political participation but private sector actors and opaque forces, corporate and governmental, are shaping the ability of individuals worldwide to exercise their freedom of expression.

jbgarrison72 (49) · 6 years ago

If by private sector actors @royer94, you mean those multinational "banking elite" entities that exist above the level of national government (and therefore pull it's levers to their benefit), then I believe you're absolutely correct.

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Shaping you say, I understand. Media propaganda and certain laws even herd us, the mass mind. It is truly Orwellian.

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mayb (59) · 6 years ago

Dear @crypto.piotr,

Please stop using steemit.com as your frontend and most of all stop linking it. Even more so when it is about topics like this one. It's almost satire.
I disagree with almost everything you say in this discussion. But being a German writer, when you critizied Goethe and stated the chlichée that stupid people are the happiest, I got even slightly mad. Have you heard about neuroplasticity? The happiest people are those who have the brain capacity to think themselves happy. People like me. I don't want to "put my dick on the table", but I've got a high IQ and I am very happy for I know that Goethe was right and the only way to be not enslaved is by claiming authority about yourself. To do this, you need to be intelligent and have lots of willpower. Which will more likely develop when you're privileged. "Stupid people" as you called them aren't.
Something completely different: You seem to value my opinion and engagement. I take it as a compliment. But I don't like the way you involve me. Please don't get me wrong. Your initial reaction could be "I always say that I stop sending steem as soon as someone asks me to. I can stop it immediately." Ok. I don't necessarily want you to stop, I want you, however, to think about this:

You keep sending notes for maybe a year now? Idk. But in this long time, I NEVER received any upvote from you. You have the idea that what you're doing is engagement. Don't get me wrong. It totally is. You are engaged. I just don't know how this is really helping in terms of bonding people. It's always one blog post that you draw a lot of attention to. Being the privileged guy you are, you bundle people behind you who, like an army, follow you through the steemiverse. Obeying to your notes, maximizing YOUR reputation by defending your ideas or at least relate their opinions to yours. Do you notice the irony?

I would love to stay a part of this community. Let's just make it fairer: Upvote one of my posts from time to time and I comment below the ones you send us to.

OK?

6 votes

mayb (59) · 6 years ago

oh, and @julianhorack: You had me at "trained in Vedanta". Started following. :)

$0.11

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Hi @mayb thanks for your kind words and follow. I'm happy to meet you as a fellow child of Gaia and Sun/Moon. Deep thinking is much appreciated.

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mayb (59) · 6 years ago

the tribe keeps on growing … <3

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gabbynhice (66) · 6 years ago

Just my opinion @mayb : i also get the notes from crypto.piotr and you know what? If the topic is interesting for me i will share my thoughts even it is different from his or his friends opinion.

Thats why i like this because even we doesnt agree sometimes we can have a good "chat" about the topic.

So actually i dont feel myslef like i am a part of anybody's army. 😉

Peace😊

Posted using Partiko Android

mayb (59) · 6 years ago

I feel like I mentioned that, @gabbynhice:

"(…)maximizing YOUR reputation by defending your ideas or at least relate their opinions to yours."

You don't need to feel like anybody's army. Me neither.
Yes, Peace. Exactly.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Im glad @gabbynhice you don't feel like part of anybody's army :)

That's the last thing I want to achieve - mindset of people relying on me and having some expectations towards me. Army is not easy to manage.

Yours
Piotr

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lishu (60) · 6 years ago

First of all, 80% of the ideas regarding blockchain, smart contracts, unstoppable, and so forth code are taken directly from this video of Andreas Antonopolus. In my opinion @julianhorack kind of plagiarised this post, but that is another discussion.

Now to the issue at hand. Blockchain is an infrastructure that can be used to guarantee freedom of speech, some human rights and access to information. This does not mean the current applications are doing this, but we have a test bed that is giving us real-world data and can learn from it. I believe we will get there.

On the part regarding censorship, I have to agree with @gtg. Downvotes are a way to reduce visibility, but cannot actually censor information. When enough pressure will be put on Steemit Inc, the company will need to close and maybe that is for the better. Steem will still go on as a blockchain, but with different API's, like busy.org.

Regarding the power of authorities to stop blockchain enabled code, I really hope they cannot. The moment when blockchain becomes a problem for the military, that's when we'll see how unstoppable it is. Luckily, there are several types of blockchain and more are emerging, and hopefully at least one will prove to be immune to outside interference.

And finally, regarding the conspiratorial tone of the original post, I believe that more of the bad things that are happening in the world are due to the shortcomings of human nature, rather than opaque groups of interest that influence many aspects of human existence. And to be honest, today I would be more afraid of google and facebook than Illuminati or other such groups, money and banking was last century's ace up the sleeve, today technology is the focal point of freedom, as well as control.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @lishu

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

ps. just wanted to check your own recent publications and realized that your latest post is quite old. hope you didn't give up on steemit buddy

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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lishu (60) · 6 years ago

@crypto.piotr for the past week I have been working almost around the clock on setting things up so I can launch my ebook "Introduction to Cryptoeconomics - The Path Towards a Trust Economy".

I have almost all thing in place now. And part of the promotion campaign will be here on steem, so I will have some activity.

You can check out my site www.prosocilallabs.com, I also have a crypto shop for the ebook :D

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

It's me again @lishu

The moment when blockchain becomes a problem for the military, that's when we'll see how unstoppable it is

I never actually thought about it. Good bloody point!

Thx again, Piotr

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forykw (64) · 6 years ago (edited)

I disagree with both... Both of you for me are Wrong.

The reason is simple. You both fail to see the positive virtue within the technology.

You can't solve all problems with fire... even if that was what Homo Sapiens though...

It depends... and yes.. a shit of answer... but that's the reality.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Hi @forykw

you got my attention the moment when you said that we are both wrong :)

Thx for sharing your opinion. I still don't know how could STEEM (or any other blockchain) protect us from increasing censorship and I wish to know how can we protect ourselfs here and our content on Steemit from those with large amount of SP (who can censor us whenever and however they please).

Cheers buddy
Piotr

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ade-greenwise (58) · 6 years ago

censorship is important, but it's one of those issues people generally don't worry about. Maybe because there are so many degrees of censorship. Some kind of balance is usually arrived at. If you want more freedom of speech take a look at Peepeth.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @ade-greenwise

censorship is important

That's very unique approach. Very different from what I got use to hear. Wow.

Thx for your comment
Piotr

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forykw (64) · 6 years ago

Unfortunately, the definition of words differ around the world, due language, culture and others. Even myself can be miss-interpreted, and we should always try to work on communication, positively.

For me, flagging someone is not really a censorship... what's really happening, is a vote. The vote of someone that does not agree I get rewarded for what I broadcast. Although, what I broadcast keeps on the blockchain... and that only I can control. Same happens to most blockchains, with some of them allowing different flexibility and features on top of this.

Now... if we speak about the front-ends... that's a different story. They can indeed censor things... and that is up to everyone to use or not those front ends. Fight against them or propose new changes... it's all dynamic again. But depends much more on a closed group of people if we compare it to DPOS blockchains for example.

The end result of the above associated problem, is that most people don't yet understand the relationships between a blockchain (like STEEM) and (d)Apps (like a steemit, partiko or eSteem where I am writing the comment for example). As consequence that generates obfuscated opinions that generate noise inside what is or not censorship on blockchain.

So, in resume, for me, what you are worried about "does not apply". I am not saying that there are no other problems around, but that's like a conversation for a LOT more than just 1 reply.

hobo.media (64) · 6 years ago (edited)

I call that financial censorship. You are targeting someone for them to lose crowdfunding from the niche community that they have built up. When you upvote content you compete with other posts for % of the reward pool, but flagging is actually sniping someone's rewards. Sure, you're willing to take a loss too, but the pro-flaggers are actually trying to get that changed, they want to be rewarded for flagging. Incentivized flagging is the death of Steem from my view.

I agree that we need to discourage bad content and encourage evergreen content. I'm all for that, but not this way. There are better options available.

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marvyinnovation (51) · 6 years ago (edited)

Hi @hobo.media,

"....but the pro-flaggers are actually trying to get that changed, they want to be rewarded for flagging. Incentivized flagging is the death of Steem from my view."

The pro-flaggers must be rewarded only if they flag bad content, but not if they flag just because they found the content against their thoughts. Let them be whales, all the rules and regulations are same for everyone.

If flagging is done just to take revenge or to make that person's post invisible just because he is against their views (but correct), the one who has done that must be downvoted and flagged by automated bots. At the same time, if a plankton/minnow flags a whale's content for making a nonsensical/highly unacceptable/practically not feasible/false comment, then that minnow/plankton must be highly rewarded for flagging for the right reason.

If we made this possible, then this unnecessary censorship will come to an end. But it is easier said than done.

If this thing become a reality, then I can say for sure that people won't resort to flagging unnecessarily, but only will do it for the RIGHT REASON!

If that be the case, how can the incentivized flagging may become the reason for the death of Steem, please clarify.

I must thank @crypto.piotr for inviting me to comment on this fascinating censorship topic by @julianhorack.

Thanks for your amazing comment @hobo.media

hobo.media (64) · 6 years ago

Hi @marvyinnovation thanks for the reply. I'll try to answer your questions to your satisfaction.

Flagging at cost to oneself forces a person to decide how much they care to attack the content. It is designed to be a cost because if there is no cost people can do it whimsically, and if its profitable people are incentivized to find fault with content.

Sure, in an ideal world if its not faulty it won't pass for rewards, but what about when Steem is hugely popular and the flaggers swarm the verification process? You shouldn't think that can't happen, its already an issue on Twitter where they can't keep up with all the abuse reports. This is with no financial incentive, add incentive and you'll see bounty hunters and bots flagging everything they can get away with.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of incentivized editing, verification processes for some things, but Steem is more than one platform. Its the future crowdfunder and stage for free expression, at least, that's the idea some of us hope it will be. We can't ignore that the crowdfunding part is a huge part of what makes Steem what it is.

We also cannot ignore that Steem is suppose to be the solution to the financial censorship happening with Patreon, Youtube and other financial/social platforms. Steem is somehow losing its identity and the culprit is the flag system.

Arguing that its technically not deleted does not fix the issue. Flagging is highly abusable by the rich and powerful or really any influential group. And it can effectively shut down the crowdfunding design of Steem for controversial niche communities.

A lot of people just put their faith in the idea that the overall community will prevent abuse. Where in the world do you ever see that work out? It never works... The whole point of decentralized systems is to create something with fair rules that nobody can gain control of and change into an unfair rule system. So, we have to make Steem incorruptible from the inside out. We all know that mainstream media, governments or corporations could buy out Steemit Inc.'s share any day of the week and if that happens the flagging system is in their discretion. They can ruin anyone's reputation and flag opposing opinions right off the platform. Get rid of flagging or heavily decentralize it and we never have to worry about that happening.

You know what... Fine, a post must be made... and by beard of Zeus, I'm making it!

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Hi Hobo

Steem is somehow losing its identity and the culprit is the flag system.

Sometimes I also have this impression.

Arguing that its technically not deleted does not fix the issue.

I wonder if facebook would say that "technically removed content is still in our database and you can access it via our very limited API" then what would people say?

A lot of people just put their faith in the idea that the overall community will prevent abuse. Where in the world do you ever see that work out? It never works...

You nailed it. People dream that "decentralization" will change it all. But noone knows "HOW" could that happen.

Cheers, Piotr

hobo.media (64) · 6 years ago (edited)

Thanks for all your great replies!

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

I'm glad that you enjoyed this hot topic @marvyinnovation

And big thx for sharing your view
Piotr

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krischik (61) · 6 years ago

but the pro-flaggers are actually trying to get that changed, they want to be rewarded for flagging.

That would be incredibly bad. There is a reason you loose reputation when you down vote on StackOverflow:

You should only downvote if the contribution is really bad.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @hobo.media

I fully agree with you, that is nothing but financial censorship.

Thx for sharing your view
Piotr

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mariita52 (71) · 6 years ago

Thanks for the invitation @crypto.piotr.

I think that if a social network has terms and conditions, well ...
Stop being 100% uncensored and; 100% Decentralized.

But as he said @gabbynhice

But lets dont forget that steem and all the blockchains are young. We are the pioneers.

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anjanida (52) · 6 years ago

Hey @mariita52, thanks for mentioning @gabbinhice comment. Let's giv'em some kudos via upvote, don't we?

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peachyladiva (67) · 6 years ago

Yeah I will agree with you on the flagging system, it's really worst, anyone with money can flag you just because they not feeling your content or they just don't like you, that's sad, several people have been a victim of such and I don't think that's 100% freedom of speech

Posted using Partiko Android

darrenfj (59) · 6 years ago

I agree with some of what you say.. specifically the flag wars that recently went on really show the power of spamming someone to oblivion.

And makes for a very unfun space to share life's quirky moments.

Governments surely can walk in, in many cases, and just change laws that affect what you can and cannot do, and the internet will likely struggle with this more and more..

And while everything on the internet is here forever,, in another way, how long can we continue to power blockchains that use up more and more energy. And how long can we save all the information being shared and duplicated to keep chains working..

Be interesting these next fews years as all this moves into more adoption by the more and more people...

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @darrenfj

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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darrenfj (59) · 6 years ago

thanks for inviting me.. Always great topics to comment on...

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enforcer48 (68) · 6 years ago

Yes and no.

If you don't care about the reputation and/or rewards, it is pretty censorship resistant.

If you have questionable content like @thedarkoverlord, then frontends can "censor" you. Then, only the tech savvy or places that don't fall under certain jurisdictions could access those data.

In extreme situations, consensus can wipe someone out, but that would also destroy the trust in the blockchain.

If you are looking for a good social atmosphere, this place is far from it.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Thx for dropping by @enforcer48

I never heard about this user and this account doesnt seem to exist .... Are you sure it's @thedarkoverlord ? Cant find it somehow ...

thx for sharing your opinion

Cheers
Piotr

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enforcer48 (68) · 6 years ago

Use a different front end and find out.

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gabbynhice (66) · 6 years ago

My personal opinion is that yes steemit can give us a oportunity for a free speach. I mean lets compare it to a other social media platforms.

You make your post and it is sensite. Than they just remowe it. Thats it ciao.
They block you.

Here on the blockchain right now they cant remove contents. They can, but for that they will need all the whitnesses.

Or yes they can flag you they can destroy the account. That is true. And i also really disagree with it.

But lets dont forget that steem and all the blockchains are young. We are the pioneers. I am almost 1 year and i already saw many changes. And it will be always better and better.

By the way if the blockchain will work properly than even they flag you from the big account there should be a lot of people who also support you so you can see which is stronger the cenzorship or the truth.

But right now while everyone selling they votes and the flags are like this it will be not happen.

Maybe later.....

Posted using Partiko Android

arnel (68) · 6 years ago

No such thing as total freedom wherever you go... even total freedom can turn to licentiousness and would enslave you to your own self. It is up to you how you leverage any privileges you got now and appreciate the "freedom" of doing things that you can at the moment (there are lots of it anyway) .

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @arnel

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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tyzzzz (48) · 6 years ago

I think censorship will ultimately fail anyway...blockchains and other such technologies are just the sword of Damocles for the people who want to suppress the free flow of data. The end of censorship had already started before distributed ledgers...even for China. People need to remember where we're coming from.
By the way, content on a blockchain is immutable...steem dapps will keep on rolling, since anyone can make one... Steemit is already "loosing steem".

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Thanks for sharing your view with us @tyzzzz

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juanmolina (68) · 6 years ago

Why do flags exist in steem / steemit?
What is the reason for having been created?

The first word that comes to my mind is "Censorship".
We can make it up by calling it "quality control" or whatever we want, but it is a card under the sleeve and was created with that specific intention.

jackramsey (61) · 6 years ago

Greetings @crypto.piotr, @julianhorack, everybody,
Nice to read your concern and the reactions from the comments.
Generally, we follow the "Golden Rule" whoever has the Gold makes the Rule.
For the NWO, Illuminati and various conspiracy theory,
hopefully, they do not catch up with this blockchain technology to control so no need to be liberated.
For the upvoting and downvoting, this should be solved by an algorithm like youtube where only the videos or posts that you like to upvote will show to your wall.
Of course, it is very hard to control people who are willing to downvote because they want to.
Hope you guys have a nice day.

majes.tytyty (78) · 6 years ago

While I agree with several of the points presented by @julianhorack, I cannot agree with his thesis that liberation is at hand.

Given the track record of previous "Freedom Bringers," we should temper our hopes a bit. Whether it was the promise of democracy, or of capitalism, or of communism, or of peace and love circa the 1960s, none of them brought us the liberation that we dreamed of.

DLT / Blockchain technology will most likely limit the control of the powers that be, and will most likely expand and increase our freedom, but to assume that blockchain will bring us true, undeniable, and irrevokable freedom might be a bit presumptuous.
...
As for the "uncensorable speech," that was a glorious promise only 25 years ago, when the internet became accessible to everybody. That did not last long.

On a related point, has anyone noticed that, post the recent hard fork, all our posts now retain the "EDIT" function.... presumably forever. Prior to the fork, we could edit our posts for only the one week after posting. Thereafter, the post was apparently permanently fixed in immutable form on the blockchain. But now, we can go to any of our Steemit posts that is months old, and we can edit it. So, it is immutable, and, probably, censorable.
...
Also, for the past few months, I have been unable to make any Steemit posts THROUGH CHROME. Not coincidentally, I was able to post through CHROME until I posted an article exposing some of the facts / truths about a man named Bill Browwdder (Sp?). As he and many others are involved in an extensive and long-term disinformation campaign, the powers that be prefer not to have the truth come out.

I had no idea why I could suddenly not post through Chrome, but a good friend who knows quite a bit more than I do bluntly told me that, soon after my post was online, someone flagged it, and then the evildoers at Google / Chrome decided that they did not want any more such news posted through their browser.

The very same day, my posting function through SAFARI was also blocked. Now, if I want to post anything on my Steemit blog, I can only do so through FIREFOX.

So, as Piotr said, there's still plenty of ways that they can censor us.

Regardeless ... FREEDOM!

nurseanne84 (62) · 6 years ago

Hello @crypto.piotr

First of all, before I get anywhere, I just want to know if my upvote registers in this post because I had a message before that says I upvoted them and then, it did not register in their posts. so just let me know if my upvote registered or not because, I am honestly voting posts and not just randomly selecting people or post to upvote. I read them.

You are right. In our community, its very sad to know that the more SP you have, the more power you get so us, poor teeny tiny things are just fodders when it comes to fights with bigger steemian fish.

Yes. you can deliberately destroy someone's reputation by downvoting them but, if your posts is just as decent and good, there's no reason for anyone to do so even if that persons holds a grudge on you. others will see your posts and upvote it again if they like it. so the key is to create quality content.

I feel safer using steemit compared to any other social networking sites because what you say gets recorded on blockchain and, its forever. Which means to say that you better be in your best behavior when it comes to posting because, who knows? Probably the next person who reads them might be your boss or your worst enemy! So, before posting, think twice of its impact in your future life!

You know what's great with steemit? I do not get spammed by my friends who obviously needed to post their selfies, food trips and whatnots. Yeah, I know that half of the people who "likes" them might not really believe that their lives are awesome but, that's life. You are your own pr man so , I guess, everyone for their own selves.

redpossum (48) · 6 years ago

Well, @crypto.piotr my sympathy is definitely with @julianhorack but I think you have a better understanding of the sad realities of the situation. Money is like water in that it always finds the cracks.

guruvaj (57) · 6 years ago

The scenario that you are proposing is on the context of decentralized actor, government or individual. or group.

For as long as their are other token holder out there that can counterbalance/offset the malign intentions of other users, we still have a chance.

Even if steemit inc. play as bad actor, those who knows the code, those who have stakes, those who have alot of money to buy stakes, join the battle, an equalizing effect could happen, and the platform will not fall.

Keep the developments on decentralization moving.
Let us be vigilant to these bad actors, you @crypto.piotr have bigger stakes compared to me, so you have bigger responsibility to uphold the system, protect the weak, and still there many out there who are willing to be a hero in any form that they can.

caliboycalwayne (48) · 6 years ago

@ crypto.piotr I agree with your remarks. I motion that the Steemit user base add democratic pressure, now that we are still at the beginning, to Steemit, to remove the flagging system from their business model. Spammers are not the "big problem" that folks make them out to be, for individuals have blocking control on their silo accounts. We are in need of greater freedom of speech, and not a greater muzzle, or money trap. Steemit could have been the answer(if only we all just generously participated and upvote each other without judgement and in support, but it's not it because of the culture being created here. We've proven to be naturally stingy, self-centered, and selfish even with what's not ours. It is what it is.

When I first arrived on Steemit, my mind was dazzled by such a community of awesome people from all walks of life, then I started feeling a great cloud of judgment. One cannot enjoy Steemit without being a part of a supportive community, and to have unpopular opinions ensures invisibility with flagging and the snobbish ignoring. "Group Think." We want equal, not money talk. Separate speech form money!

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago

Hey there well said, good insights and opinion.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @caliboycalwayne

One cannot enjoy Steemit without being a part of a supportive community, and to have unpopular opinions ensures invisibility with flagging and the snobbish ignoring

Very well said. You nailed it buddy.

Appreciate your comment. Thanks for sharing your opinion on that particular subject.

Cheers, Piotr

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nabil.nassiri (53) · 6 years ago (edited)

Welcome and thank you for sharing

Personally I have a different attitude and may seem strange to you.

I personally do not care about the censorship imposed by a number of sites because I simply announced my position. I am convinced and I do not care if I exercise censorship. On the contrary, I feel that I have achieved one of my goals and that my messages have been put in place.

I have practiced journalism for several years and I know that when I exercise control, I am on the right track.

Yours Nabil

niel96 (69) · 6 years ago

"Do you really believe that? Someone out there is creating those blockchains and Im my honest opinion - authorities will surely find ways to put pressure on them."

Depends, proof of stake is not as secure as proof of work. You can only hack the big POW blockchains by doing a 51% attack or when you would have a quantum computer smart enough to hack the encryption. Both are impossible. But in the case of steem it's not that secure, you would only have to take the witnesses their servers offline. Which wouldn't be an easy task but not impossible.

"Something that could not be done on any other social media out there. Steemit is actually the worst when it comes to censorship. Anyone with money can censor you."

I agree, it's very easy to shut someone up here on Steemit. Much easier than on Twitter for example. A solution would be to come up with a hard fork where they make it more expensive to flag people. But then how will real spam be fight? There is not really a good system right now to fight spam.

"Goverments can easily influence Steemit Inc or other companies promoting their front-ends. Do you really think it matters much if some content is on blockchain, if this content is not being displayed by any front end? I really have my doubts."

True i agree. You could say the same about exchanges btw. Governments can't take blockchains offline but they could attack the exchanges, it's the weak spot. That's why there are now decentralized exchanges. You would need something as a decentralized front end.

"Are you really feeling so safe here? It's just very fragile illusion. If Steemit will ever grow bigger and authorities will start paying more attention to this platform, then Ned and entire team will be under heavy pressure."

I think steemit is not that important anymore like they used to be. All the new inventions come from the community itself. And that's how it's supposed to be.

"Current flag system is the worst tool out there, allowing full control over displayed content on Steemit and other front-ends."

Yes it is. But what's the solution? It's difficult to find a balance. If you get rid of the system spam will rise a lot. But if you keep the system people can censorship others. What is a good system?

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @niel96

AWESOME COMMENT buddy.

You would need something as a decentralized front end.

I wonder if it's possible to create one.

Also thank you for accepting my invitation (memo) and dropping by. I appreciate your comment.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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niel96 (69) · 6 years ago

"I wonder if it's possible to create one."
Websites are usually hosted on a single server but with a content delivery network they can cache the website when it goes offline. The problem is that a blockchain is just not as efficiënt as a centralized server. You can never get the same high speed and cost effectiveness, but they are more secure.

Right now, there are much different front ends for Steem.
If steemit goes offline we have busy.org, partiko, steempeak, ...
It's probably a better solution.

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sughey (68) · 6 years ago

Thanks for inviting me to my friend @ crypto.piotr, this topic is very extensive and my way of seeing things is also delicate, the censorship in this and many other platforms overwhelm us more every day, what I feel is that they use it from a way a little subtle, because without his comment I would not have realized the power that people within this community have to censure others, even the censored may think they are trying to help. I do not know, it's very controversial.

In my country, censorship is lived every day, and it is very frustrating for ordinary Venezuelans to see, live and feel reality and that the local media can not do anything to share reality.

Someone should take action on the matter!

regards

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @sughey

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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worldfinances (61) · 6 years ago (edited)

I don't just think, but I know that Steem has more freedom of speech that most media outthere. I once had cops in front of my house, because we were talking about our politics and who may be responsible for what...on facebook. And I had to lie to the cop on the station that we were just joking around.

Steem as a whole system, has many apps , dapps....and some of them do not let anyone to downvote posts of other person. So if anyone sees the problem with this small function, just use other app/dapp. I personally don't have any problems on Steemit. But I'm seeing that some bots are
censoring posts from members who are just posting nonsense.

It happened to one of my friend who was just making photos in one software and than posted them for a year, and he was also upvoted by his friend with 15k sp... you see the picture.... I told him just to make another account and send steem there. Another one was dadjokeoftheday. Really nothing spectacular. Just one short (not so funny joke) per day. And pretty high upvotes . Posts were made months ahead...

But what I want to say is that...I really doubt that good posts will be flagged/banned. But if you want to post low quality, you still have some dapps on steem without downvoting/flagging function.

As I already said sometime before, people want all the goodies in one day. This is just not possible. Blockchain system is more fragile, dynamic... You can also put your own ideas about how to make Steem better (maybe say that we should abandon downvoting and flagging on steemit)...or even help with programming, translating.... be active.

pauli0606 (57) · 6 years ago

I would not like to censor Stemit, if by this means I express my thoughts, desires, imaginations, it is like an escape to all that perverse mind that I have towards the sexual.
also is a means where I can help economically before the difficult situation that we Venezuelans are going through.

huseyinunozkan16 (60) · 6 years ago

I appreciate that this issue is examining. In my opinion any block as a cencor in any blockchain area is weird. In Blockchain mind nothing about people can be followed. In every Crypto area the most important clue about firms is operation times. Thus some restrictions make people far from blockchain.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @huseyinunozkan16

Appreciate your comment. Thanks for sharing your opinion on that particular subject.

Cheers, Piotr

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happyme (68) · 6 years ago

This is a great article and will hopefully be published in wider circles so that more people will be inspired to become aware of the real truth (or at least to seek it out).

Having said that, I will also say that I agree with what @crypto.piotr wrote as his reply. Whatever man can make, man can destroy. Where there is a will, there is a way.

These are all just challenges that take time to learn about and to overcome. They offer opportunities for learning. But learning without applying lessons is as good as useless. People need to take action. However, divide and conquer has been a tactic used for centuries. Who is brave enough to sacrifice their own life to be the first to take action? Something needs to happen that will unite enough people with enough rage (or desperation) to make them take action and do what needs to be done.

Then again, there is the moral issue of what is actually the right thing to do? Is there an absolute right? I don't think there is. After all, your Hitlers and Mussolini's were doing the right thing in their own eyes. Whatever action is taken will be seen as bad by someone.

As a species, I think we are still in our infancy about understanding life itself.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @happyme

AWESOME COMMENT buddy.

Whatever man can make, man can destroy.

I love how you summarized it.

However, divide and conquer has been a tactic used for centuries

That's very true. Of course on opposite end we have tactic "unite and collaborate" which need to be promoted.

Also thank you for accepting my invitation (memo) and dropping by. I appreciate your comment.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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d4rkflow (64) · 6 years ago

It's very disappointing see steemit censoring content and see how easy it is. But the problem is in fact the public reach steem doesn't have, you can run your own frontend and no being shut down but with no traffic.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Thanks for comment @d4rkflow

Did you give up on Steemit? I didnt see you posting in almost 1 month :(

Yours, Piotr

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dynamicgreentk (65) · 6 years ago

I wouldnt say Steem is worse. Its still the place to be. Front ends and their server locations to even isps can determine matters before you can even decide as a buisness or individual as to what content to provide or consume.

You both are right but what is put on the chain is there forever and the flags you speak of still isnt as bad as a algorythim or youtube taking all your superchats just because or deleting all your subscribers.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @dynamicgreentk

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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maclevis (57) · 6 years ago

Thanks again @crypto.piotr for inviting me over here, before i start my comment i want to define censorship according to wikipedia,Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient". Censorship can be conducted by a government private institutions, and corporations. I don't think blockchain can stop censorship, every thing happening on media are being monitored. Once any activities on media or blockchain becomes too harmful, don't be surprise to see government agents jumping into it to possibly crashing the platform or pressuring the owner to obey their terms. My final take on it, Blockchain is not a safe platform for an illegal posts or transaction. They can still track anyone in here. Government won't allow anything they can't track to exist.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @maclevis

AWESOME COMMENT buddy.

Also thank you for accepting my invitation (memo) and dropping by. I appreciate your comment.

Government won't allow anything they can't track to exist.

Very true. I guess that's why goverments hate cash.

ps. Would you perhaps consider using "enter" from time to time? To separate blocks of texts? It would make it much easier to read.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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rufusfirefly (61) · 6 years ago (edited)

I have two points to add to @crypto.piotr's post.

The blockchain is a physical thing living on computers. Blockchain keepers who host illegal content like child pornography could be held liable. Their safest recourse would be to destroy their copies. The Dark Overlord has already posted extortionate content, so they may end up destroying this blockchain.
China has already demonstrated that it can censor the internet. Blockchains are not immune.

guysellars (66) · 6 years ago

@rufusfirefly, I would like to call attention to point number 2. I think China actually goes beyond its desire to censor information, but to possibly control how the blockchains function. I'm writing on article on this now myself. Will keep you posted.

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rufusfirefly (61) · 6 years ago

I look forward to reading it.

Posted using Partiko Android

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @guysellars

Let me know if you will publish article about it :)

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guysellars (66) · 6 years ago

Will do!

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redpossum (48) · 6 years ago

I teach English online. Several of my students in China use VPN to get right around their government's censorship, and they do it so casually that's it's obviously a regular thing for them.

"The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it" - John Gilmore said this 25 years ago, even before the release of Win95, when there were still damn few of us out on the web, (connecting to the net with winblows 3.1 was not simple)

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rufusfirefly (61) · 6 years ago

China has claimed to have blocked VPNs. Your use of the present tense implies that the regime has not succeeded.

Posted using Partiko Android

redpossum (48) · 6 years ago

Yes, yes, my words do indeed imply just that :)

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Nice convo guys :)

In China there is plenty of Laws that noone care about.

Law never really mattered there anyway. This is still wild country, far from being ruled by law and regulations.

Cheers
Piotr

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @rufusfirefly

Thank you for your kind reply

The Dark Overlord has already posted extortionate content, so they may end up destroying this blockchain.

I'm afraid I've lost you here :( Would you mind explaining to me what do you mean?

ps. Indeed China proved that it is possible. Mostly because their gov has pretty much absolute power. With western countries it may be more difficult simply because people seem to be more rebelious and we have some rights. But yeah, blockchains are not immune. Just like you said.

Yours,
Piotr

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rufusfirefly (61) · 6 years ago

The Dark Overload is a group of hackers who try to extort money from their victims. They were banned from several sites to prevent them from coordinating their actions and posting threats. They came to STEEM because of the lack of control. Steemit.com banned them from it's interface, but they still use the blockchain. So far, they have had only a short burst of activity two months ago. They posted an extortion attempt involving an actress's breast augmentation photos. Then, allegedly not receiving payment, they posted the photos. It was a poor attempt: Two headshots of a blonde actress and before and after pictures of a long-haired blonde with no way to tell if they were the same person.

Posted using Partiko Android

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Wow. I never knew about it @rufusfirefly

That could be an awesome topic to read about :) Thx for sharing all those info.

Cheers,
Piotr

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krischik (61) · 6 years ago

Probably one of the reason picture and videos are kept on IPFS server: So they can be deleted if need be.

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thetimetravelerz (66) · 6 years ago

Indeed a hot debated topic my view
Money=Power be it here on steemit or the outside world it is just as good or bad every where
If you have good content but no money to promote your content goes down and is lost.
If you can get engagement but someone powerful comes along who does not like you or your content you can be downvoted.
As steemit as a front end gains popularity and more users get to use it its DA goes up and so does its visibility on search engines like google.
So whatever happens on steemit... good bad or ugly can be magnified and reflected on to the outside world.
People can twist facts and project is as truth though this is scary but when I step back and see the outside world I see it happening this there too.
however this should stop on steemit. Not sure what would be a workable solution. If I say a one user one vote system where all votes are of equal weight is an option but the next thing needed may be linking accounts to real world ids and this may take away the right to remain unannounced and anonymous so whatever the path the structure should be improved.
As things posted onto steemit are posted onto a blockchain and remain till eternity or till at least a single node exists so there has to be a workable solution for this situation.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

ps. perhaps next time you can hit more often "enter" on your keyboard to separate blocks of text? it's really hard to read your comment ;)

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thetimetravelerz (66) · 6 years ago

Perhaps I would be better off using the laptop instead of the mobile to do a the typing ;)
Look at the text as my attempt to learn how to type with the mobile keyboard.

Slowly I getting better at it

Posted using Partiko Android

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ikkelins (49) · 6 years ago

Whoa, this is one of the interesting topics that have always been lingering in my mind and i am glad someone has had the time to bring it out. Now i would just blurt it out to you folks, in as much as crypto enthusiasts enforce decentralization trust me true decentralization has never been achieved hence there is always some level of censorship in the blockchain industry.

Take a look at decentralized exchange platform for instance you would realized the creators of the platform still are in control of the wallets in which funds are deposited in to trade. The blockchain industry is still young and hopefully we may be able to come out with some better solution that really fulfills decentralization and gets rid of censorship.

Kelvin writes. read about some topics of mine here

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @ikkelins

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

ps. I just noticed that you posted something new: LET'S SUPPORT OTHER YOUNG CREATORS TO BE THE BEST.
Cool. gonna check it out ASAP.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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ritxi (66) · 6 years ago

I think you hit the point with most of your answers. But what if Steemit will move from the company and be run only by witnesses?
And I can see the light on the end of the tunnel. Projects like Elastos can make this decentralized web 3.0 really working and then it will be really impossible to turn something off. But we need the patience to be this done.

yestermorrow (56) · 6 years ago

I gotta say I'm somewhere in the middle on this one. For one, I use Steempeak rather than steemit, because the interface is so much better. Steeve, Busy, Partiko, there are many front-ends. And any of them could theoretically be bought and censored in that manner. Capitalist countries don't censor things, they outsource that task to 3rd-party, like Wastebook or Shitter, and let those guys do it.

So while anything put on the blockchain is forever out there, any interface that reaches enough users can be shut down. The real question is, which interface do you use? Luckily, building a web-interface isn't -that- hard, so as long as the community keeps pumping out new ones, things should remain fairly free. Until they force Windows10 to censor it...

And that's why there's Linux. <3

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @yestermorrow

AWESOME COMMENT buddy.

Also thank you for accepting my invitation (memo) and dropping by. I appreciate your comment.

I use Steempeak rather than steemit, because the interface is so much better

I tried but Steempeak seem to be mostly visualy attractive, but way slower than Steemit. And I tried my best to find a way to easily mention in my comments name of person I'm replying to and I failed.

So while anything put on the blockchain is forever out there, any interface that reaches enough users can be shut down.

You nailed it. Thx for your input.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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cryptohumster (58) · 6 years ago

An interesting opinion indeed, but i can't really agree. I lived my whole life in a post-soviet country. I know what censorship is. The true censorship is not about hardening access to some content, but punishing authors and publishers for making it. This is mre about legal field all types of media are in.

Steemit is part of a real world. It is playing by common rules whether you like it not. Yeah, there are tools in Steemit that can be used rof censorship. Tools, as always, are neither good nor bad. It's how and who uses them. How many examples of "bad" using ot the tools here on steemit do you know?

For me steemit is great tool to find information and opinions I can't get in more mainstream media platforms. And a great opportunity to freely express mine.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @cryptohumster

I didn't expect your comment. What a surprise. I thought that you already gaved up on Steemit long while ago. Good to see you around :)

I lived my whole life in a post-soviet country

Which one? I lived most of my life in Poland which was very close to being post-soviet.

Your view on censorship must be surely more extreme than those from western countries.

Appreciate your comment.
Piotr

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krischik (61) · 6 years ago

You are making some good points — against Steem and Steemit. But not against social media Blockchains as such.

Steemit has a problem with the unlimited power your VESTs. I have argues several times for some form of soft level cap on the actual power VESTS gives you.

So Steem might not be the best when it comes to free speech it it not impossible to create a blockchain bases social media which dosen't have Steems problems.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @krischik

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

it it not impossible to create a blockchain bases social media which dosen't have Steems problems.

Exactly. So why people are still dreaming of such a place? I dont really get it. Do you?

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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a-non-e-moose (49) · 6 years ago

"Goverments can easily influence Steemit Inc or other companies promoting their front-ends.Do you really think it matters much if some content is on blockchain, if this content is not being displayed by any front end? I really have my doubts."

I think it really does matter. Even if these companies were universally intimidated to censor, once it's on there it's public. The blockchain is just out there ready to be read. While it may be put behind obstacles or exempt from being read by a given utility for whatever reason, they don't erase it. It can even still be read.

If we use the black bars put over stuff to censor it on television as an analogy for this kind of censorship by frontends, it would be like we can go out of our way to move the black rectangles off of the picture and it's still there underneath.

Being flagged can't stop an account from posting, as far as I know. On other social media the company can stop an account from posting.

Also just because they created the blockchain, why does that mean they could stop it? You could threaten Satoshi Nakamoto all you want and she or he would still be just as incapable of bringing down the Bitcoin network as you. That's if you could find the slippery person or people anyway.

If only Ned et al. were so anonymous.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @a-non-e-moose

AWESOME COMMENT buddy.

Also thank you for accepting my invitation (memo) and dropping by. I appreciate your comment.

Even if these companies were universally intimidated to censor, once it's on there it's public.

Ehm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it only means that data on database is public. But still almost noone will see to read it if front-ends will censor that content.

In current days - if you're not visible online then you don't exist. Censored content will be unreachable for almost everyone.

Being flagged can't stop an account from posting, as far as I know. On other social media the company can stop an account from posting.

Of course it does stop author from posting. It just force him to give up on this platform and withdraw all resources and leave. And it can be done by anyone who has loads of resources. Not only by authorities who need to follow some regulations.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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a-non-e-moose (49) · 6 years ago

I won't argue against the importance of visibility, but I think it's secondary to the actual existence of the data in the first place.

One of the defining qualities of blockchain tech in general is censorship resistance. It's also a major part of Steem, and a big draw for many people including myself. I'm confident that those of us who care about this issue will find a way to leverage that quality come hell, high water, or front-end censorship.

"Force" is a strong word. Surely you can work to demoralize someone with flagging, but that does not directly stop their posting. That's only going to stop people who come for entertainment and frivolity, and those who have no reason or will to persist in demoralization. Those with conviction, like whistleblowers or watchdogs as extreme examples, will retain the unfettered ability to transmit their content around the world even when all their posts are flagged to zero. No other account could stop them or stop anyone from reading their content.

This, I think, is powerful. Much more powerful than any frontend.

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hobo.media (64) · 6 years ago

I absolutely agree with this statement. My main concern is that if Steem ever becomes more than a hobby network, mainstream media will outpower every single current member here with flagging. Whales will hand over their power, like Ned, for their lambos and bigger houses and mainstream media will control Steem inside and out.

Steem is a financially rewarding platform, this is the ultimate use case it has. Sure, the immutability is my favorite part too, but the reality is that your content can still be fairly drowned out and pushed back. For example, visibility is 100% based on upvotes, flagging hits reputation and makes your post even less visible. Sure, on your own personal site its still technically there, but your ability to be supported with upvotes by your little niche community is effectively shut down by whales. These whales are not voted in or there for any actual merit, they bought their way there or just got in early enough.

Steem needs the identity as the truly uncensorable media platform, because that is its niche. Since Steem is unmistakably related to crowdfunding as a social media platform, it needs to also not be a part of the financial censorship going on in the world with the traditional social sites.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Hi @hobo.media

Whales will hand over their power, like Ned, for their lambos and bigger houses and mainstream media will control Steem inside and out.

That indeed could happen.

Thank you for accepting my invitation (memo) and dropping by. I appreciate your comment.

Cheers, Piotr

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matteopaints (57) · 6 years ago

It seems to me that we need to focus on what Steemit is good for, it rewards people for posting quality content. The value of your data is what attracts me to this platform. Will Steemit get so big that it will attract attention from the Man, probably. Will it be censored? Well, human nature dictates that there is only so far you can take an idea before it gets warped by greed, jealousy, and power, so yes it will be messed with for sure. But I think that the genius of the blockchain and getting rewards in Steemit and Steem Power has placed this community in a really good place and I am proud to post my blog on Steemit !!

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Hi @matteopaints

Thank you for accepting my invitation (memo) and dropping by. I appreciate your comment.

Cheers, Piotr

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fitnessbosco (55) · 6 years ago

Id have to agree with you, if a big business put a lot money they can easily manipulate and censor you.

But there's another concepts of blockchain out there helping against censorship, like BitTube https://bit.tube/ is a peer-to-peer, decentralized, censorship-free video sharing and live streaming platform based on IPFS and blockchain technology, this IPFS allows even if a government blocks a domain, its still possible to access the data through a hash.

blanchy (65) · 6 years ago

Love the post but where there is power there is greed these organisations you talk about can easily infiltrate the crypto space. Bitcoin price is being controlled already by a number of unknown whales. Then You look at the big coins and you see the "poster boys" who own them. Ethereum's Vitalik has already had several meetings with Vladimir Putin. Charles Lee proved that he would buy and sell his own mother. Ned ..... well I wouldn't be singing from the rooftops with him. For every coin there is a well known guy that set it up. The whales on Steem are playing the system for their own fortune. It is failing because of it. These guys have not been elected by any democratic system. They are either programming genius's or were in the right place at the right time. If your predictions are correct they will become the new leaders. Judging by what is happening in the crypto space over the last two years, the in fighting, the hard forks, the scams that robbed people of their livelihoods in some cases. Maybe it is better the devil we know! Crypto reminds me of George Orwell's Animal Farm. Let's overthrow the governments, let's take control, decentralisation is the future. Out of the frying pan and into the fire of people we haven't elected. A new 1% but with no code of ethics.

thehermitmonk (48) · 6 years ago

I think the idea of blockchain for freedom is good, but the fact is the NWO will use it to bring in their dictatorship, everything will be tracked using the blockchain.
Every purchase will be known, and like the Bible says no one will be able to buy or sell with out the mark in his hand or forehead.
People are already getting the chip put in their hand and they think it is great.
Cattle gets chips
Pets get Chips
Will you get the chip and be the bankers cattle or pet?

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @thehermitmonk

Thank you for sharing your view and accepting my invitation. Appreciate it a lot.

Have a great upcoming week :)
Piotr

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grintsch (54) · 6 years ago

I agree with most of the comments here. Steem is generally resistent to censorship; if a client like Steemit chooses not to display posts or comments that have been voted down it doesn't mean they've been silenced. What's lacking is simple UX that would let people use Steem without having to use a centralized service like Steemit or Steemconnect (see China) so that the actual, uncensored truth can actually be addressed by anyone.

Whether or not the lack of censorship is a good thing is a totally different discussion, though. There's probably a lot of people who would disagree, be it for political or hate speech.

So far, most people who value the freedom of decentralization currently are social beings; this will change once mass-adoption of blockchain has kicked in.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @grintsch

Appreciate your comment. Thanks for sharing your opinion on that particular subject.

Cheers, Piotr

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sternblitz (51) · 6 years ago (edited)

Very interesting post. I like Steemit cause of its possibility of freedom of speech. This is great and i hope that no goverment is never been able to intervene in a negative way neither on Steemit nor on Steem. I can give only a nice example of a well known website, which nearly everyone knows and which is still alive, that is http://www.kinox.to ! This website has severly been attacked by goverment in the past, but http://www.kinox.to is still up and online, that´s great!

clareartista (61) · 6 years ago

This is a very interesting theme, @crypto.piotr and @julianhorack - I don't know enough about the technicalities of Steemit to respond to all @crypto.piotr's points but yes, can imagine that any platform based on money/points = power /influence can and will be influenced by people with manipulating tendencies (who have money).
But collective, decentralised and horizontal structures have incredible power too, to overcome all manner of power dynamics... When I know more, I'll be able to explain how!
All power to us in doing good in the world!

Posted using Partiko Android

julianhorack (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

Sincere thanks @crypto.piotr for your delegation of 200 SP. Does it show up anywhere? I don't see it. I have upvoted 99% of the comments here so far to show appreciation for their visit and especially their valid information or content. I posted a reply to the original reply feed, so it should pop up in the list of all the others here.

Best wishes.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @julianhorack

you can check all your delegations on www.steemworld.org

I removed that delegation just yesterday evening (assuming that you may not need it any more). Let me know if you still do.

Cheers
Piotr

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mintymile (67) · 6 years ago (edited)

I actually, don't think Steemit is decentralised, maybe other blockchain platforms are more decentralised and can't be censored by authorities. Have you checked reddit? ...

I got accounts on, but not active any where, but i am sure its more popular than Steemit, you should also see other blockchain social media then analyse.

What I heard is you can tip people if you lke their posts, I find than cool, Steemit is complicated can't understand its structure, its more a blogging platform than social media, and the number of Steem power, or Steemit crypto determines the power to actually do things right, upvote and stuff, its not a tall truely decentralised and you people have also said its owned by private company, so don't think qualifies for decentralised platform.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Hi @mintymile

Thank you for accepting my invitation (memo) and dropping by. I appreciate your comment.

Cheers, Piotr

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bdempsey (43) · 6 years ago

I entirely agree. Censorship comes in many forms. You are free to post what you want (and can do so quickly at low cost) through a WordPress blog. Just because you are free to write it doesn’t mean others will have access to it. After writing, you then need to show up in Google search to be found and read. Google becomes the gatekeeper.

Similarly on SteemIt, you can post what you want (like the views you expressed here) but it takes centralized incentives to bring your views forwards. In this case, crypto.piotr shared your link with me and encouraged me to read it. Without that, your ideas would not have been shared with me.

The problem isn’t the forum to create and share ideas. The problem is the ease of access and awareness of those ideas, which still are largely centralized.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @bdempsey

Appreciate your comment. Thanks for sharing your opinion on that particular subject.

Cheers, Piotr

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ragnarhewins90 (54) · 6 years ago

You said it all actually I don't have anything to add.

Also if you remember I always say people with power and money will always be in control over everything.

Posted using Partiko Android

paulswansen (46) · 6 years ago

I've printed out the article and replies. I'll give it a read and post a reply a bit later. Thanks for letting me know about the article.

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Wow @paulswansen

Did you really print it all out? Respect :)

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anjanida (52) · 6 years ago

Thanks for your invitation, @crypto.piotr. Good to hear from you. Since we're in Poland a lot for political reasons your name came to my attention before. Now, I'd love to discuss this topic with you, though on the blockchain NOT. ;-)

Do you know the story of Telegram? If you approve to it, I may send you my t.me/telegram via encrypted message. Seriously!

crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Dear @anjanida

Do you know the story of Telegram?

Story of Telegram? I don't know it's story :) But you can find me there: crypto_piotr

Cheers
Piotr

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aaliyahholt (68) · 6 years ago

Think about this, you use Facebook, they get the money. On here, you use the site and you get rewarded for it. This site is like Reddit so people are gonna down vote. I've been downvoted for no reason on Reddit more than I can count.
As to removing your rewards that is true. That Bernie flagged an innocent post and I lost my earnings.

seaotterrodgers (37) · 6 years ago

Very interesting.

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hansgans (53) · 6 years ago

Sorry my English skills are not sufficient to give a satisfactory answer. Nice content. Keep it up!

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aracieli (5) · 6 years ago

As long as we have our rights we could do whatever in our mind and still have our freedom in social media so go ahead, we are in a new era every time there is a new topic we just observe and act whatever we could do for the future. Thanks Piotr

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canon12 (50) · 6 years ago

this is for all i know it

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doifeellucky (64) · 6 years ago

Oh... forgot! Piotr thanks for the invite to this interesting post!

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Thanks for dropping by mate :)

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luigi-tecnologo (64) · 6 years ago

@crypto.piotr You should understand the difference between STEEM and Steemit before MASS SPAMMING people for these BS.

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bitfiend (59) · 6 years ago

At least he's spamming someones post that he feels should have some engagement, unlike the bidbots, resteem and SP lease services that just spam in order to line their pockets. If anything, @crypto.piotr is doing something with the transfer/memo system that no one else is doing and it's by far a lot less spammy then "PROMOTE YOUR POST! SEND YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY TO A BIDBOT!" Of course, we all have our opinions and you are entitled to yours. I am pretty sure though that in every memo he states that if you don't want him to send you memo's to simply state it and he'll stop. I considered requesting to be removed from his memo's, but the topics he points me to aren't bad. In fact, it's usually a topic that I enjoy reading and responding to.

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