This article is also available here.
This podcast is a conversation between Jordan Peterson and Dr. Andrew D. Huberman, a neuroscientist and tenured associate professor in the Department of Neurobiology at Stanford University School of Medicine. Dr. Huberman’s work focuses on brain development, brain plasticity, neural regeneration and repair, and the visual system. His lab uses a variety of investigative tools and has made significant contributions to understanding how the brain works, changes, and repairs itself. The conversation touches on the biochemical cascade of dopamine being converted into adrenaline, the importance of setting and achieving goals, and the concept of ‘closing the dopaminergic loop’. The discussion also mentions Dr. Huberman’s successful podcast, ‘Huberman Lab’, which focuses on neuroscience and other scientific topics. The conversation is set to delve into Dr. Huberman’s work on anxiety and exploration, and their neurological basis.
The autonomic nervous system controls the ‘automatic’ functions of the human body, such as digestion, heart rate, and breathing. These functions are typically outside of our conscious control and are influenced by our emotional state. The autonomic nervous system can be thought of as a continuum between alertness and calmness, with different neural circuits determining our state of alertness or calmness. This system communicates with the brain through mechanical and chemical signals, such as the feeling of an acidic stomach or a racing heart. Understanding this system is crucial to understanding our behavioral and emotional responses.
The autonomic response of humans and animals to arousal, which can be to retreat, stay put, or fight.
Autonomic arousal can be inappropriate or inadequate for what life demands of us. It can manifest as either feeling over-energized or under-energized, both of which originate within the autonomic nervous system. The ‘hinge’ in the middle of this system is the prefrontal cortex, particularly the left dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex. This part of the brain communicates with two critical areas: the interior singulate cortex and the insula. The insula, predicted to be the next buzzword in popular neuroscience, is responsible for interpreting bodily signals and reporting them to the conscious areas of the brain. This allows us to take our own physiological state into account when making plans or decisions. The insula’s role in formulating or reporting these representations is supported by both animal and human data.
Parts of the Brain
The prefrontal cortex is a part of the brain that is often associated with executive function. It is a flexible rule-setting structure that helps us adapt to different situations. This is demonstrated in tasks where individuals are asked to switch between reading words and identifying colors. The insula and the prefrontal cortex work together to establish which rules are appropriate for a given situation. This can be seen in everyday situations where we have to adapt our responses based on different triggers or contexts.
The left dorsolateral prefrontal cortex plays a crucial role in regulating our responses to different situations by accessing memories and establishing new rules. It also has the ability to slow down the heart rate through its connections to the vagus nerve, which can help in calming the body. This process is particularly important in situations of confrontation or high stress, where accessing alternate rule sets and calming the body can lead to more effective responses. However, in individuals with chronic anxiety or damage to the prefrontal cortex, the order of this process can reverse, leading to dysregulated responses. The ability to access multiple rule sets in moments of extreme autonomic arousal is a key strength in high-stress professions like special operations. The brain also has its own adrenaline system, the locus coeruleus, which can trigger alertness or action.
The locus coeruleus, a part of the brain, is connected to everything and acts like a caffeine-like substance, waking up the entire brain. This works in parallel with the adrenals in the body, which wake up the body. This process is associated with the orienting reflex, which is our instinctive attention to changes in our environment. It is a key component of the reticular activating system, which wakes up the brain.
The dorsolateral prefrontal cortex plays a crucial role in decision-making and rule establishment. If it is inactivated, a person becomes incredibly accurate at motor tasks but loses the ability to distinguish between friend and foe. The prefrontal cortex is not necessary for purely sensory motor responses. When it is absent, people become like machines, responding to everything as a stimulus. Anxiety simplifies us, reducing us to a more primordial and direct state. The prefrontal cortex generates potential abstract patterns of action, assessing them before they are implemented. It is in a unique position to control the body and calm it down, acting like a screwdriver that tightens the hinge of a seesaw, ensuring it stays at an appropriate tilt.
Avatars, a Unique Evolutionary Mechanism
Creating artificial avatars allows us to put forward ‘optional selves’ in an abstracted way and to discard them when they are no longer necessary, without us dying. This process is facilitated by the prefrontal cortex, which generates these abstracted artificial selves. The verbal description of these alternative modes of action is considered to be similar to storytelling. The prefrontal cortex is also capable of calming the body, suppressing somatic responses to allow for the creation and exploration of these artificial selves. This ability to suppress stress is crucial for imagining different selves and outcomes in a way that doesn’t require physiological responses.
There are a limited number of bodily states one can have. These states form the base for all emotions. Our lab has studied this in the context of fear and confrontation, observing that the pause or freeze response is associated with the lowest anxiety response. We found that individuals who confront their fears experience the highest levels of autonomic arousal. There was a study where mice were stimulated in a specific brain area, and this made them confront their fears in a strategic way. This stimulation was found to be highly rewarding for the mice.
The Dopamine System, Human Behavior, and Evolution
Dopamine can be described as the major reward system in the brain, likened to a universal currency that represents power and potential. It is linked to the anticipation of rewards, driving individuals towards their goals. This system is activated when individuals voluntarily confront their fears, leading to positive reinforcement. The dopamine system is also connected to the autonomic system, registering success or failure in pursuits. The prefrontal cortex, which generates possible outcomes and future projections, is part of the dopamine reward system. The concept of ‘reward prediction error’ is introduced, which is the anticipation and disappointment when expected rewards are not received.
The anticipation of a reward, such as ice cream or a significant event, can lead to a surge in dopamine, a neurotransmitter associated with pleasure. However, if the anticipated reward does not materialize, the resulting disappointment can cause a drop in dopamine levels, leading to feelings of sadness. This mechanism is also linked to addiction, where the anticipation of the drug’s effect can reinforce negative emotional states. Dopamine reinforces the memory of events and states of mind that precede a successful reward, which can lead to the development of addictive behaviors.
Pain can be viewed as the result of the death of a malfunctioning systems within ourselves. The pain is caused by these systems resisting decay and death. One example is how a person’s self-image and can be affected by failures or mistakes. You could lose a piece of paper and have subsequent self-criticism and depressive thoughts. Such thoughts can lead to a depressive pit if they are allowed to consume all potential future selves. It’s important to bind these thoughts and not let them define one’s entire self, using the rule of ‘innocent until proven guilty’ as a guideline.
People with a depressive temperament or high trait neuroticism tend to generalize failure and punishment. Errors should be attributed to state, not trait, and that the necessary behavioral transformation to prevent similar mistakes should be minimal. It is like fixing a leaky roof without needing to dig a new foundation. Distinguish between trivial maintenance problems and major issues. Not every problem signifies a collapse of one’s entire self, and it’s unwise to react drastically to minor issues. Learning to identify the severity of problems can be overall beneficial.
State or Trait, Dopamine Surges
There is a potential for an over interpretation of traits and depressive neurotic disorders. It is also possible for the opposite scenario to be true, where individuals might over inflate their wins, especially when in manic states. The dopamine system has a role in anticipation and pursuit which is highly subjective and open interpretation.
Neuroticism can be related to self-consciousness and anxiety. Individuals with high neuroticism often become overly focused on their own internal sensations, leading to social awkwardness and anxiety. Instead of trying to calm themselves down, these individuals should focus on calming the other person down and paying more attention to them. Participating in mindfulness meditation can be helpful to those who are overly socially anxious. They may benefit from focusing their awareness outward rather than inward.
Purposefully exposing yourself to fear or anxiety-inducing stimuli instead of accidentally encountering these stimuli can help quell the fear response and make individuals braver, potentially even changing their character at a genetic level. Neuroplasticity and the dopamine system has a role in this process, and the brain can be rewired to respond differently to fear stimuli. This is a topic of ongoing research.
Neuroplasticity might also be related to goal setting and learning. When an individual believes they are working towards an important goal, they enter a neurochemical state that enhances learning. This is due to the activation of the prefrontal cortex and the dopamine system, which are key to reward processing in the brain. Your mindset affects your journey towards your goals, and that seeing challenges as opportunities for growth makes the hard work feel rewarding. There is a need for a clear, unified goal, as it sparks joy and aids in learning.
It is important to find motivation and interest in a task, even if it’s assigned. Without genuine interest, the task becomes a futile activity and the result is likely to be dull and uninspiring. Completing even small tasks can trigger the release of dopamine, which in turn is converted into adrenaline, providing energy and increasing confidence. This process can help individuals set and achieve larger goals. Take small steps forward, especially when feeling low in energy or motivation.
The Effects of Antidepressants
Completing even trivial tasks can stimulate dopamine and adrenaline production, which can help shift a person’s mood from a depressed state to a more forward-leaning, proactive one. Cognitive appraisal is recognizing the value of small tasks can lead to a positive self-perception and potentially larger-scale improvements. The act of organizing one’s immediate surroundings, for instance, is not trivial and can serve as a stepping stone to broader order and organization. The potential of what one can achieve by consistently moving forward is limitless.
It is possible to view the neurological and psychological processes as algorithms. B.F. Skinner’s work on animal training showed the effectiveness of sustained attention and reward over threat and punishment. Skinner’s method involved rewarding animals for small steps towards a desired behavior, leading to significant behavioral transformation. Apply this approach to human interactions, and reward people for positive actions to encourage more of such behavior.
Anxiety is a motivator for action, and it can be managed through self-care practices like good nutrition, social connections, sleep, exercise, and sunlight. Dopamine interacts with hormones like testosterone and estrogen to control gene expression which can affect your motivation. These hormones are released when the dopamine system is activated, and they can cross cell membranes to control gene expression, leading to permanent changes in the body. This process is triggered by achieving ‘wins’, even small ones.
Testosterone is a molecule that controls not just immediate cell physiology, but also their gene expression. Data shows that repeated failures can lower testosterone levels, but it doesn’t mean that people with low testosterone will always fail. One of the quickest ways to boost testosterone is to achieve a win. In behavior therapy, people are helped to calibrate the zone of proximal development, pushing their skill development forward. If someone is stymied, the goal is to find something they can do that would constitute a micro win.
Jordan Peterson once had a demoralized client who had a chaotic life and had just had a child. The client was living in a messy room that hadn’t been vacuumed for months. I suggested that the client’s task for the week should be to vacuum the carpet. The client brought the vacuum cleaner into the room but didn’t use it for the entire week, instead stepping over it. This highlights the difficulty the client had in taking the first step towards improving his situation. The individual was overwhelmed or ‘paralyzed’ by this daunting task. To overcome this, I suggested breaking down the task into smaller, manageable parts. As an example, I advised the individual to clean up just one half of their sock drawer for the week.
The ‘positive movement forward’ can be exponential rather than linear. Dopamine has a role in various behaviors, including academic, sports, and relationship pursuits. The dangers of accessing repeated dopamine surges without effort, such as through drug use or pornography, are discussed. There negative impacts of these behaviors, such as undermining pair bonding and the healthy processes of finding a mate.