Grunge the gift that keeps giving... another sub-genre of Metal is called Post Grunge [Metal Tree: 22]

full-steem-ahead (65) · 8 years ago

I started to reply an hour after you posted this and got side tracked into several other rabbit holes.

I am familiar with all of the bands in this sub-genre except Silverchair, and like them all to some degree. When I was still a believer in the Christian religion I was W A Y into Creed. Saw them in Dallas in 2000. I thought Tremonti was pretty damned good myself, no Satriani or Richie Blackmore, but very good.

The other one I really liked but to a lesser degree was Nickelback. The others I heard from radio play mostly tho I did DL one of Godsmack album 4 or 5 years ago from some place, I don't even recall which one it was.

I thought it was pretty kewl you put Creed & Godsmack next to each other in the order here, kindof a "thesis / anti-thesis" thing. Nice touch :)

Back in the day I might have taken offense to your inclusion of the Creed parody. I still like their sound but the lyrics / message - not so much now. Still, somewhat puzzled by the bad rap the band received.

Of all the bands you included here, I think Godsmack fits into the Metal class best, tho Creed would also if not for their ties to Christian rock. Stapp had the voice for it, Tremonti was as good if not better than many in this list. Bush also is pretty edgy & the lead has a good voice for metal.

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4 votes

dwinblood (73) · 8 years ago

You'd have to go back to the earliest posts in this series to see why most things in here are called metal. People will use the term Rock, and it is mainly due to the negative connotations SOME (not you) have with Metal. In reality where Rock and Metal began their divergence was when people started using Distortion consistently. With the exception of an occasional ballad that seems to be one of the most defining things. Yet as with all music there is that EDGE where we had rock, and then we had metal.

Essentially in pursuing this I would say the earliest Metal also shared the name Hard Rock, Acid Rock, etc. That was the border where the transformation was happening.

So I don't actually consider what people like to call Rock to be rock much of the time.

If I were to do a series on the origins and evolution of Rock for example it would become very clear that Rock at its inception is VERY different sounding from what sometimes is labeled Rock today.

I now contend that much of what people call Rock is closer to Metal. The issue is that some people have a mental bias against the term, so they avoid the label.

Though there are also those sounds that skirt the edges between Rock and Metal.

Though I did not make this chart in this case or any of the acts here in this sub-genre. I did not add any of my own as I have done with other sub-genres as this is one I don't really understand. This was chosen by Sam Dunn in his Metal Evolution documentary series. He has a PhD in Anthropology and seems to have put that to use studying Metal. He has made some amazing documentaries. He is the one that has Post Grunge listed with these acts. It is his chart that inspired me to begin this series as he did not cover a ton of the sub-genres in his chart, and in some he did, he did not cover a lot of the bands. In some sub-genres that I do know well he also left some people out.

I thus explore this in the hope people like you will enjoy it and that I too will enjoy the journey and learn some new things. So far so good.

As to the parody. I made sure to show just as many non-parody tunes of Creed as I did all of the other acts before showing them.

Those SHREDS videos have been done for many people I like including Rush, and other acts. So the SHREDS stuff always destroys songs. I find it funny at times, though I do know it is not funny to everyone.

If you look at the very first post it has the chart I am pulling these from. Not too many left. Though I have thought of one sub-genre to add, and I had another earlier today but have forgotten it. Hopefully I remember. :)

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full-steem-ahead (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

Interesting commentary. I very much have enjoyed this series and I thank you greatly for taking the time to write it. Although I myself don't really enjoy what I believe is your primary wheelhouse in musical taste (thrash?), we do share a great deal of overlap as we've discussed previously. If we were all the same it would be a very boring world!

Rock at its inception is VERY different sounding from what sometimes is labeled Rock today.

I agree completely. You have to go back to the 50s for the next level of origins for the label "Rock" or "Rock & Roll" (I assume those are the same in your thinking, if not there's yet another nuance to explore). Some might take issue with that saying the true origins go back even further to the days of jazz and soul. I wouldn't argue with them, it depends on how deep you want to go down the rabbit hole and the criteria you use for the transition / influence. Dunn's Evolution series does an excellent job of traversing the rabbit hole, tho his starting point doesn't go back as far as jazz or soul.

I now contend that much of what people call Rock is closer to Metal.

I agree with that also. I dare say one example of that is Creed. When I looked up Creed in Wikipedia to get the spelling of Tremonti's name right they label it in the genre of Rock, not that Wikipedia is any authoritative standard.

In reality where Rock and Metal began their divergence was when people started using Distortion consistently. ... the earliest Metal also shared the name Hard Rock, Acid Rock, etc.

I never thought of that as a defining distinction, probably b/c almost every band uses distortion to some degree, not with every song of course but it is very ubiquitous in music these days. How distortion is used is more important now, as in the pinch effect you described in your previous metaltree article. One notable however short lived example that comes to mind that was contrary to this definition is Days of the New :

And a live performance of the same tune:

They combined the acoustic sound with harder edged lyrics and darker themes commonly found in metal.

I'll admit I haven't seen all of your series or watched all of Dunn's Evolution series either, though I have spent a few hours between the two and find them both very informative and well done.

When it comes to music I may not be as well informed and the level of connection may not be as passionate as that of a musician such as yourself and @damiancraymond, but as you can probably tell my taste is broader and deeper than the typical guy on the street.

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4 votes

dwinblood (73) · 8 years ago

Thrash was my favorite when I was younger. My favorite if I have to pick one is Progressive Metal.

I am a guitarists/musician. I tend to focus towards technical excellence and how long it would take me to master a song. Something like nirvana for example... some of their songs took LITERALLY 30 seconds to learn.

That wasn't that appealing to me. If I were not a musician then likely different stuff would appeal to me. Thrash was the most challenging to play at the time it came out. Progressive Metal still has stuff I cannot play, because they are so much more skilled than I will ever be.

Technical ability is obviously NOT the only reason for music. Yet neither is some extremely skilled DANCER performing some dancing they trained for years to do. Sometimes you just want to go out and dance without that training, yet people still tend to get watching a skilled dancer.

Visual art.... "Holy crap, look how real that painting looks" is a lot different than "Holy crap look at those colors on the paper".

In every art there is a point where you admire stuff that is beyond your abilities. For a long time that was thrash. By the time Grunge came out I was skilled enough that for the most part I could of played pretty much all of that. I would still practice a thrash song for weeks before I had it down.

The better I became the less this was true, and I found myself becoming more and more interested in Progressive. That has some of the most truly insane musicianship I am aware of on the planet. Though it is not always something that is appealing to those that do not view it from such a frame.

So that is my motivation...

Though I often like stuff just for the sound and in that case I like pretty much every sub-genre of metal, and tons of non-metal.

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dwinblood (73) · 8 years ago

Also I do appreciate your responses. They are considerate, and interesting.

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dwinblood (73) · 8 years ago

Just as a side note... I watch The Voice in multiple countries. I've played in a Jazz band (in college years ago). I've played classical.

I've composed techno, industrial, country, etc...

I am into music in general... there are only TWO forms of music I tend to not get into...

RAP... I respect rap in a rap battle where the people are making up lyrics on the spot. Yet the old school rap that didn't have much other than a beat mixed with a rare other sound and was someone just rapping. That does nothing for me. I am pretty good at making up rhyming lyrics, so if I have TIME to do it that doesn't impress me a lot. When they do it live on the spot though, that is pretty damn impressive and I enjoy watching that.

Techno... I like techno, but there is one variety which the guy that was into it and forced me to listen to it called the type he was listening to Polish Techno. I am not sure why it was called Polish other than he was from Poland. Yet it literally would beat a bass drum in the same steady beat about 2 beats per measure... so like a slow marching energizer bunny rabbit beat... and maybe every 30 seconds or so you might hear a keyboard play about 3 or 4 notes as a quick little riff that lasted a couple of seconds. It annoyed me because I am pretty sure I could teach my dog to play that in order to get a treat. Maybe not exactly... but it illustrates my issue with it.

Those are really the only two things I will say I dislike.

I hated country for years in my life because in my youth my parents were both alcoholics and I'd go wander from bar to bar (small town) to find them in my early teens. I heard a lot of country then, and the sound became mentally associated for me with Alcoholism.

As I grew older that ceased to be the case, and I do respect ALL of country, and I even like quite a bit of it now.

So I am pretty open and obsessive about music. Metal just happens to be my core genre. It is the style I am into most...

Classical and Rock would vie for my second place areas of interest.

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full-steem-ahead (65) · 8 years ago

Got it, nice to know. BTW, I give you high marks for the level of interaction and detail you respond with, I definitely appreciate that.

I also admit to being a Voice show addict. It may very well be contrived with the winners chosen or otherwise picked differently than they reveal to the TV audience, but it's entertaining either way. It gives me a shiver listening to some of the performers they're so damned good.

2016 was the first year I missed it tho, didn't see a single episode. My TV antenna was hit by lightning and I still haven't replaced it. I don't miss it too much, The Voice is one of the few programs I bothered to watch regularly.

The Internet provides all my movie, entertainment and news feeds these days. I haven't found a good free, no hassle source for The Voice shows yet.

I credit Blake Shelton with getting me more interested in country, at least the modern style of it. Shania Twain started it I guess, but Shelton accelerated my interest. I lump most of his tunes into one of 2 categories: 1) playful & fun or 2) romantic / sappy. It's a simple generalization I know. I also just like the guy's sense of humor and his stuff has that melodic quality I need in all music I care for.

I'm with you 100% on your take on rap. It's rare when I take notice of tunes in that genre. Like you I also hated country, tho for totally different reasons. I just didn't like the sound, the slidey steel guitar, the superficial "poor me" lyrics. I was very close minded towards it. Conway Twitty, Willie Nelson, Whalen Jennings - shut 'em off and plug my ears, obnoxious noise to me.

Sorry to hear about your parental unit woes, that's terrible. Really man, that sucks. From what I have seen you've overcome much of the deficits that causes in people. Way to go on that score.

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dwinblood (73) · 8 years ago

My parents both quit drinking cold turkey half-way through my Junior year in high school. It did shape me, but not in a bad way I think. I don't really do any drugs other than caffeine and honestly haven't touched a drop of alcohol since I was 16... over 30 years ago.

As to the voice... I prefer to torrent it. I can't vote on things, but I can then watch The Voice US, The Voice UK, The Voice Australia, The Voice Holland, etc. They each approach things differently. Holland and other non-English speaking nations the judges and comments may not be in English but often the songs themselves are. Even when they are not it is often very good stuff.

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randr10 (62) · 8 years ago

I always thought of Nirvana when I thought of grunge, because well, they defined the genre. It's more of a slowed down punk than some of their contemporaries who sounded more like metal minus the solos to me (and lower register singers in most cases). Don't get me wrong, I like some of those bands, but I would file them under the catch all 'alternative rock' moniker.

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2 votes

dwinblood (73) · 8 years ago

Yeah, you need to read my other posts and you will likely understand why these bands are here. Nirvana was covered in the post on Grunge (Metal Tree 14)... the post is covering a sub-genre known as Post Grunge.

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randr10 (62) · 8 years ago (edited)

Oh yeah, I definitely get why they're here, I was just more or less agreeing with your confusion as to why the bands here were labeled in this way in the first place. The band I was in during the early 2000s was labeled post grunge, but we weren't exactly going for a grunge sound.

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2 votes

dwinblood (73) · 8 years ago

Yeah, my goal is to complete that Metal Evolution chart. I may add a branch or two afterwards. I am not familiar with all of them. All I can tell about the Post Grunge is they all seemed to fall in the decade of the 1990s.

I did notice the vocals often had that kind twangy whining singing style that Grunge kind of created. So perhaps that is where the grunge elements came from.

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randr10 (62) · 8 years ago

Why the flag @asshole? Just trying to be an asshole I take it.

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richq11 (72) · 8 years ago

This is way outside of my musical taste. I did like Figured You Out, by Nickelback though. Great post (I did like Poison by the way...Their guitar player was pretty good)

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