— SteemCN

donchate (49) · 7 years ago

Unfortunately Dan's series wasn't packaged neatly into a flashy video and will likely not get much exposure. Have to admit, did not read all of it, so the links are handy to catch up later on.

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5 votes

kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

Sad but true. He didn't use any ad hominem attacks, didn't make a video, and didn't try to do anything except lay the concepts out succinctly and clearly. One would hope that Steemit will be the place where that kind of content flourishes, and to some extent it does.

I wonder how he'd feel about someone summarizing his series and making it into a short video (or a couple short videos. @dan? I'd be happy to take up that mission :-)

@donchate, I'd highly recommend a read/re-read, it was some of the best stuff I've read since joining Steemit honestly.

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8 votes

kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

Agreed, some of the best stuff out there. Do the vid!

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teamsteem (74) · 7 years ago

Definitely needed. I think it's safe to say this will be done at some point.

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the-ego-is-you (59) · 7 years ago (edited)

As a supporter of some versions of "UBI" and opponent of most, I'd be very interested in a video making the ideas more vivid.

I remember reading Dans posts some time ago, but the amount of necessary semantic and theoretical preconditions makes most posts such as these a very lenghty and often confusing read.

Having some videos to accompany them would be of great help for a lot of people, including myself.

(You can skip the parts strawmanning capitalists vs socialists though, because that clearly doesn't help anyone)

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

Ya, they were definitely very in-depth and the sort of thing that the average person just tilts their head at in confusion, then closes and walks away. I'll add a video version of the series to my to-do list :-)

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3 votes

juanmiguelsalas (68) · 7 years ago

Cuba is a failed experiment of this basic income stuff, money come from someone and they will ask you for to do something at the end of the road if you want to mantain your "free" money (there is NOTHING FREE in this world, believe me)... for me, basic income is the first step on the way to dictadure ...
Theories are not reality sadly!

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

Cuba is a whole lot of things, you can't just say that UBI can't work because an authoritarian government implemented it and their version didn't work.

Between crypto-currencies (especially things like Steem, Grantcoin, and Faircoin), automation of manufacturing & food production, and the other technological advances opening up before us, there are SO many possibilities that are right on our doorstep that would have been truly impossible a decade or two ago.

Just looking at crypto-currencies, they are all created automatically through mining. What if a community created their own crypto-currency, and instead of a small % of people receiving all the newly mined coins, everyone using the currency got a little bit? Nobody is having anything taken from them, no extra inflation is occurring, and you now have a universal income (within that community).

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juanmiguelsalas (68) · 7 years ago (edited)

I am just living in a real world. Just tell me what kind of government we have now in the world that can implement this in a fair way? Do you know how humans are? It si a very important point that people who like communism and socialism tend to forget in the fight for the utopy ... and who fight for an utopy is fighting for air my friend.

And this about the community I can not imagine so much. I can see how the BTC community or Steemit works and til now is like the real life, power is concentrated in a small % (I am just making a point here, I know they are differences) ... To be honest, I have hope but I am also afraid of the blockchain technology ... it is not just a descentralized tool but also, from my point of view, a perfect tool for to control.

What if a community created their own crypto-currency, and instead of a small % of people receiving all the newly mined coins, everyone using the currency got a little bit? Nobody is having anything taken from them, no extra inflation is occurring, and you now have a universal income (within that community).

This is very difficult (impossible) to implement in real life without a central control if is a big town, city or country. Government will always look for the taxes and so on (I supose you aretalking about now) ... they need to have control. You can make it work maybe in a community or something small like it. Maybe!

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

I am just living in a real world.

You're living in the past you mean. Any time you're basing arguments on the way things have been, the way governments do it, what we have/haven't tried before, you're arguing from the past. That's all out-dated and does not create real limitations on what we can do now, tomorrow, or next year. The only limitations we actually face are our own creativity and to what extent humans are willing to work together for something new.

Just tell me what kind of government we have now in the world that can implement this in a fair way?

I've never advocated for government to do anything at all, and neither do many others who have discussed UBI. Anything government can do, voluntary association can do better.

Do you know how humans are?

Naturally cooperative, good, and socially mindful. Aside from socio/psychopaths, humans don't want to compete with each other, take advantage of each other, or otherwise be against others, except where it has been instilled as "right", "normal", or "the only way" by a culture carefully designed by sociopaths. (1, 2, 3, 4)

You can make it work maybe in a community or something small like it.

That's the only way that any agreements or structures can work, as it is the only way that humans can actually function together. Cities/states/nations are all unnatural fictions, which only serve when a small group wants to keep a much larger group under their control. If you can't build connections with the people around you, then you will never create alternative systems together, your ability to cooperate is hindered, and you have an increased need for "middle men".

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juanmiguelsalas (68) · 7 years ago (edited)

You're living in the past you mean. Any time you're basing arguments on the way things have been, the way governments do it, what we have/haven't tried before, you're arguing from the past.

Living in the past??? I am telling NOW ... you can not do it NOW! Btw, if I do not see how the past works I will make the same mistakes in the future ... kind of what happens all the time if I see history ... maybe because people think like you.

I've never advocated for government to do anything at all, and neither do many others who have discussed UBI. Anything government can do, voluntary association can do better.

And you talk about dreaming? Where is the place you can do this NOW? Would love to see the voluntary people who really do not hink about they self. Altruism??? Yes maybe in the bible, someone call Jesus... fantasy land. You are hopping for an utopy and time pass and never comeback

humans don't want to compete with each other, take advantage of each other, or otherwise be against others, except where it has been instilled as "right", "normal", or "the only way" by a culture carefully designed by sociopaths.

And talking a bit of sense, but also no sense Even wild animals compete with each other... if you do not do you can not develop your self to the max you can ... it is not studies or writings done for a social scientis sitting at home or in a confortable lab of a capitalist country... it is what I have seen in real live in many countries for my work. Btw, iam not agree with adjectives or "right" or "wrong", I think it is very subjectiv and personal view.

Cities/states/nations are all unnatural fictions,which only serve when a small group wants to keep a much larger group under their control.

I am agree 100%

If you can't build connections with the people around you, then you will never create alternative systems together, your ability to cooperate is hindered, and you have an increased need for "middle men".

Agree also, in Cuba, Brazil, Chile an many poor countries happens like that as far as I have seen (20 years ago and NOW) but because the government control the economy all this conections at the end are subject to this control.

PD: Who lives of dreams, dies of disappointments.

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

Anything we refer to as already happened, anything we've seen, is already in the past. This does not in any way limit our future. Humans are the most adaptable species on the planet, and getting better and better at it every day.

To argue that something cannot be because it hasn't been before, is simply wrong. Every new thing was "impossible" until somebody created it.

People repeat history because they do nothing but look at history and think that's the way it has to go, the only way it could be. The only people who have ever changed things are people who see an alternative that's never been tried and go for it, in spite of naysayers who can't believe in it until it's in front of them.

I am sorry that you live a reality where people are not cooperative and supportive of each other, that's really unfortunate. That is not the world that I live in, that's not the way that the 1000s of people across the world who I interact with every year are, but that's because it's not my belief, and our beliefs decide our experience.

The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter - for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way.
Nikola Tesla

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juanmiguelsalas (68) · 7 years ago (edited)

Humans are the most adaptable species on the planet, and getting better and better at it every day.

This is a big true but we are not getting better in this .. well because of how the "society" teach the people mostly. I am agree with you on that ...

To argue that something cannot be because it hasn't been before, is simply wrong. Every new thing was "impossible" until somebody created it.

I do not say that. I do not say it is wrong, I just say it will not work because of how humans are ... and please, I have seen with my own eyes cooperatives working and as I told u before, just in small places ... bigger than that will change in a dictadure or will be communism, kind of the same. ... and well you say it ur self if in a world of billions of people you have a group of 1000s who help each other ...

Sadly Nikola Tesla tried a lot how reality works ... look, I am agree in a lot of points with you but life teach that better to have Freedom than Subsidy because this will become Slavery at the end ...

Edit: I took out a question ... not reason to do it

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endplunder (45) · 7 years ago

That's right.

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singletonpress (40) · 7 years ago

There is no correct way to implement UBI, no matter what scheme you contrive, it will not work. People have to create ways to use the land and our resources and enrich themselves.

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

That is a sadly limiting and close-minded perspective to take. We, as free-thinking, collaborative humans, can come up with a "correct" way to do just about anything. Any limitation other than where it becomes violation of another free being is purely illusory.

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endplunder (45) · 7 years ago

Most people in favor of the UBI seem to plan on being on the Receiving end don't they? haha

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

Well... since it's universal, everyone is on the receiving end. So I'd go so far to say that all humans in favor of UBI are on the receiving end.

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endplunder (45) · 7 years ago

You mean you don't want to be the one to pay for it?

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

The many possible UBI structures that have been discussed in these comments and in the series by dantheman that I linked to above, all involve ways of setting up a UBI which do not include taking from one to give to another.

If there is a calculated inflation (like that of BTC, ETH, etc), and that calculation or some portion of it (so miners can still be rewarded for their energy) is split amongst everyone involved, then you have a UBI. No theft required.

My friend @akaskew is creating a permaculture farm design which will be easily repeatable, and one of the facets is that a portion of all profits will be divided amongst everyone in the nearby community (who choose to sign up for the program). Another option which does not involve theft.

Even in a state model (which I never advocate), many countries have nationalized one or more of their natural resources. If a country had, say, nationalized oil, they could take all the profits of that oil and split it among their citizens (as Saudia Arabia does in small ways, paying for college for males; or as Las Vegas does with casino profits). [Again, I never support a state option, just giving more examples.]

Personally, I know better than to think that money is any sort of limiting factor on my life, health, or happiness. Food is grown by sun, water, and soil, it doesn't come from money. Shelter is built by wood, clay, human energy, it doesn't come from money.

I am in favor of any changes (voluntary & non-violent) which will help the masses come to the realization that scarcity is an illusion, that we live in a reality of absolute abundance. I see UBI as one possible stepping stone towards that. Everyone knowing that they have enough to survive, to tend to their basic physical needs, allows them to let go of this fear that has been conditioned into them, stop being slaves in order to survive, and begin to focus on their actual purposes for being here.

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endplunder (45) · 7 years ago

Scarcity is what gives things value. If there is no scarcity, then you need no UBI to buy things with, because they will be as abundant and free as air! duh. Everything is scarce and finite, that's why you want to distribute the means to buy things. Even time is scarce, we only have so many years of our life, and working hours in a day. Sure the world is big. But we must take our scarce labor, to develop those abundant resources into usable products (food, materials, etc.). Do you really sit outside and wait for the sun and soil to grow food for you? It takes a lot of labor and tools just to grow your own food. Money is what makes peaceful trade possible and it provides a measure of productive value and efficiency (prices). Without money, it would take you months to build a home, and you won't find any insulation, electronics, HVAC, or TV's to forage in the woods. Your goal for people sounds like something for nothing, not for me, I'll continue to earn my way thank you. If you are worried about people just donate, don't cop out ask that someone else do it.

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sam-wise (35) · 7 years ago

Hmmmm, makes me wonder if a crypto could be used to implement UBI.

I haven't thought through the details at all but Steemit seems to be working on some pretty magical principles, so maybe there's a system that could create and donate value to the world independent of a government or central bank.

The obvious first issue is inflation....

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

There is already one: GrantCoin designed for this exact purpose, and I would say that Steemit definitely borders on the topic too. Between getting a few steem for free when you join, and getting curation rewards just for clicking 10 times a day, that's pretty close to a universal basic income.

Inflation is already part of every currency, whether fiat or crypto. The issue becomes uncontrolled/unstable inflation. With STEEM, that inflation is split between witnesses, curators, and authors, effectively limiting it's effect on the system by spreading it as evenly & widely as possibly.

If a crypto worked on any of the same basic mining/creation/inflation principles as BTC and the like, but say the miners got 25% and the other 75% is split evenly amongst all holders, then you haven't created any more inflation, but you have created a universal income. Just one though, I'm sure there are lots of folks already writing up the code for these things.

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