Steemians, do you think it&#x27;s worth trying to debunk conspiracy theories?

francesleader (54) · 7 years ago (edited)

The first thing you have got to do is stop using that jaded old CIA expression.
There is no such thing as a conspiracy theory.
There are conspiracies.
There are theories.
There are facts.
Discern between the theories and the facts, that is all that needs to be done.

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4 votes

rawdawg (61) · 7 years ago

You sound like one of those conspiracy theory truthers! Run for the hills!!!! The Deep State global agenda is going to take down the world! Everyone who doesn’t agree with me is a sheep because I KNOW the truth!!! Beware and be scared people!!! Be very afraid!!’ They are out to get you!!!

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https://steemit.com/liberty/@teamsteem/thank-you-dan-larimer-you-are-a-great-mentor

teamsteem (74) · 7 years ago (edited)

@rawdawg, I think people gain from not ridiculing other people.

Some things are neither true nor false, yet consensus is required and the result of that consensus has impacts on all of society.

Picking a currency is one example. Picking a side of the road to drive / walk on is another.

The result is less important than the process. Who shall determine the truth? From what frame of reference? Show me any process that is guaranteed to arrive at the truth and I'll show you how it will fail.

Only individuals can make an estimation of truth based upon their own perceptions. Consensus is the result of the majority of individuals coming to the same conclusion.

Assuming all individuals can communicate and have incentive to live in the truth then truth will prevail. If there is incentive to believe a lie, then the lie will prevail. This applies even on an individual basis. @dantheman

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rawdawg (61) · 7 years ago (edited)

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Reveal Comment

crypticalias (53) · 7 years ago

Of course there are conspiracy theories. They aren't theories in a scientific sense, but they are theories.

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o1o1o1o (55) · 7 years ago

Well the term "theory" juxtaposed with "conspiracies" is also not that helpful because many extremely well supported scientific theories remain "just theories" because they are not of nature that they can be "proved" like 1+1=2. One crucial difference between scientific theories and conspiracy theories - the former can be used to make predictions that will be found to be true and useful - not in disagreement with facts, and novel. Conspiracy theories don't do that. They are just models developed by overzealous pattern matchers and they overfit the data. Therefore they have the feature that they are extremely poor about making accurate or useful predictions, and they are also very brittle. New data often has to be thrown away as fake and part of the conspiracy, or the "theory" has to be made even more elaborate and complex, adding new hidden variable type features that no one can disprove. How convenient.

For some reason UFO conspiracy theories, pizzagate conspiracy theories, round-earth conspiracy theories etc. etc. continue to fail to produce any actual new and useful results, no aliens have been demonstrated to exist, no Clintons in child-trafficking rings have been busted (even though DJT has all the power to do whatever Alex Jones asks him to make such busts happen), and no ice-wall or edge of the Earth has been proved to exist (should be damned easy right?). Oh, but of course, there is a conspiracy to hide all the evidence and keep everyone silent (when the government demonstrably has more leaks than a Welshman has leeks). Okay, that's the number one sign that a conspiracy theory is not a theory at all - because it cannot be used to make new and useful predictions because... conspiracies! Might as well call bullshit on all of reality at that point.

Therefore I say these aren't theories. I don't know what they are - hypotheses, conjectures, dogma, suppositions, speculation, riddles, tall tales, myths, or just plain bullshit. Perhaps we can recycle some terminology popular on the right and just call them alternative-theories? Un-theories? Or how about "spaghetti theories" as in Spaghetti Westerns (faked Westerns style movies made on a shoestring in Europe).

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tmayd (54) · 7 years ago

I like the clarity of your comment, and you're 100% right on.
Your post has definitely earned an upvote!

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https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/feb/02/how-youtubes-algorithm-distorts-truth

o1o1o1o (55) · 7 years ago

Hey @davidpakman, if you haven't seen this it is relevant.

Like I said, it's an uphill battle when YouTube is conspiring to promote conspiracy theories.

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davidpakman (76) · 7 years ago

Yep, I recently read this article. Crazy stuff, right?

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tmayd (54) · 7 years ago

The term "conspiracy theory" is used to dismiss and ridicule those who don't buy the official version of certain events, to shut them up and shut down any chance of a dialogue. It is important to have a forum where the raw facts and empirical data (not opinions, theories or interpretations) can be explored fully, from which as accurate a narrative as possible can be extracted. No topic should be banned, however controversial. When it comes to the truth, no event should be above reexamination if new information comes to light, even if it leads us to the very uncomfortable task of having to question and reassess the premises upon which we have constructed our reality.
Truth, facts and accurate information have nothing to do with who the person is or the context. Preselecting who is credible or not before they get to make their case is not good science. As to the context, it will privilege "facts" that justify the context.
In the spirit of free speech and true scientific inquiry, it is important to give a platform to all, not with the agenda of making them look like idiots but with a genuine curiosity that maybe, lust maybe, they might have something worthwhile to offer.

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davidpakman (76) · 7 years ago

That exact explanation is used by conspiracy theorists to try to legitimize absurd ideas.

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tmayd (54) · 7 years ago

And it seems you just made my point that all one needs is to call someone a "conspiracy theorist" to delegitimize anything they have to say.

(Are we caught up in some circular debate that could go on ad infinitum?)

A couple of observations:
If your a priori bias is:" conspiracy theorists are a bunch of nutters with half-baked ideas", then any argument you make and conclusion you draw will be consistent with that premise.
We humans tend to reject that which does not fit in our already established internal schema and beliefs.
In order to transcend these limitations, we must be aware of our biases and question the validity of our premises, and have the courage to withstand the discomfort of changing our ideas and opinions when warranted by new information.
In your work as a journalist, I would encourage you to provide a platform for dissident voices with an open mind. If the ideas are absurd, they'll fall of their own weight! As to the facts, they speak for themselves.

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numen (28) · 7 years ago

If the position is irrational, it will be derided as a conspiracy theory, because it is. If the position can be shown to be rational, it will cease to be a conspiracy theory. It's as simple as that.

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tmayd (54) · 7 years ago

What you say is logical, however it is not as simple as that. Rational and accurately documented positions can be labeled as "conspiracy theories" if they do not conform to the official or politically correct narrative. Conversely, the fact that something is official confers to it some legitimacy. An interesting example of that is the NIST report of the collapse of the three WTC towers on 9/11. Despite the egregious inaccuracies of its methodology and conclusions that have been identified (and disproved empirically) by a number of engineers and research scientists (including ex NIST scientists who worked on the report themselves!) the former gains its credibility from the government seal of approval whereas the latter are ridiculed as conspiracy theorists.
The whole field of influence, propaganda and psychological manipulation makes for fascinating investigation indeed, regardless of whether one personally believes that Martians are conspiring to enslave planet Earth or that our governments couldn't possibly tell any lies.

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numen (28) · 7 years ago

I see what you're saying. Every idea should be evaluated on its own merits, regardless of its popularity, endorsement, and (to a certain extent) civility. I agree.

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tmayd (54) · 7 years ago

I like how you expressed it so clearly :-)

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rawdawg (61) · 7 years ago (edited)

Good question David and you are in the right place to ask considering Steemit is loaded with conspiracy nuts. There is no point attempting to debunk conspiracy theories as those who know the “Truths” will fight tirelessly to defend their position even when provided evidence to the contrary. They also typically have 3rd party “research” from unreliable sources, claiming this evidence to be “proof” of their positions.

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davidpakman (76) · 7 years ago

Yes, no shortage of conspiracy theories on most internet discussion platforms

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gikitiki (60) · 7 years ago

Conspiracy theories are fun to debate with friends/allies, but it is usually futile to debate with people you have no association with.

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bubbleboy (54) · 7 years ago

It depends, but generally no. It’s a pathological compulsion for most.

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numen (28) · 7 years ago

I think whether or not you should attempt to debunk conspiracy theories depends on your goals. It would definitely be entertaining, and if you delve deep into them you just might find a kernel of truth or something interesting like that. And like you said, if absurd notions are not challenged enough, they just might gain enough traction to cause something bad (see: Pizzagate).

Trying to reason with the hardcore nutjobs is certainly a lost cause, though.

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rupok (80) · 7 years ago

Every one is trying to find an answer to this question.May be fbi or cia into this or some other party.Who knows.@upvoted

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democratsonly (40) · 7 years ago

Some of them are hard to debunk. I ve given alot of thought to some. Some industries are over represented by different segments of the population. I don't think there is anything wrong with admitting success in some areas. I personally do not get into any conversation when it comes to religion. It's just to easy to say the wrong thing while could be true maybe looked at as hurtful or taken the wrong way. Of course online if you look hard enough about all of us are attacked in one way or the other. I try to follow and speak about the positives in life and don't get to hung up on who's making what or what religion they are in. By the way I am a older left handed man. Look hard enough and probably somebody online hates me to. Glad to see you here on Steemit David and I highly recommend this community to all Ttubers and citizens alike. Go STEEM

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abuyeti (40) · 7 years ago

Most people, in my experience, are not looking for education. They are looking for confirmation. Generally I consider this question to be covered under the prime directive and let the primitives be.

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kil (46) · 7 years ago

Nice

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kevaton (48) · 7 years ago

Every theory can be falsified, including conspiracy theory. It depends also on whether the falsifier has an argument that is superior in context to that in which the conspiracy theory was created in the first place. Thank you @davidpakman for thought provoking question.

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iqbalhossin (42) · 7 years ago

dtube is best plate form for news sharing dear..
i want to know about that
you news sharing is good work
stay on it dear

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comstar (36) · 7 years ago

Sure! debunking conspiracy theory can lead to the unraveling of unknown truth

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mrfox (32) · 7 years ago (edited)

Everybody wants/needs to express their opinions. I think its a good additive to the realm. Some are really entertaining.

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snaves (39) · 7 years ago

Yes. You're more likely to convince someone in private conversations. In a public setting, they are not likely to be convinced, but it could help the audience. Either way, it will increase your own understanding of the topic.

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samueldouglas (54) · 7 years ago

Whether or not you should believe something, and then whether or not that should count as knowledge rather than just belief (because they aren't the same thing) should be solvable using any decent epistemology: Best Available Theory or Justified True Belief etc.

But convincing someone else (or yourself) to accept something as knowledge, that's an endeavour that follows psychology, not logic.

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nuraini88 (44) · 7 years ago

I want to be like you but I can not develop .. I've tried but not increased my level .. I salute with you .. you've become a successful person in steemit.

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themobilewriter (48) · 7 years ago

I would personally be interested in watching a couple of conspiracy theory.

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iamanwaar (44) · 7 years ago

Not really though some of the theories are quite interesting and engaging like "existence of illuminati",people say they buy your soul to make you famous all that seems really funny sometimes,but it engages.
Another is the" Rothschild family " who people claims controls the world's economy through central banks.
The "Edward Snowdon conspiracy" saw the film how CIA blackmails ,secret tapes ,surveillance through webcams everything is watch out for.
"the 911 conspiracy" people say its GW bush internal act to attack Afghanistan ,Iraq too
To get their oil deposits .
"WW1 & 2" how America plays the role in instigating wars to profit their weapon industries.

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rambogoham (49) · 7 years ago

Well yeah, I mean the Manhattan project was a conspiracy theory for decades but turned out to be true.

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abdul1234 (43) · 7 years ago

Yes i think so

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duerstthewuerst (11) · 7 years ago

It sorta sets up the false neutrality bias, but on the other hand, doing anything you can to prevent idiocy from spreading might be good? Idk.

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awkwardrenegade (25) · 7 years ago

Yes, conspiracy theories tend to grow and spread much more when they remain unchallenged, seen it happen many times.

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o1o1o1o (55) · 7 years ago

No, the people who believe them have broken pattern matching in their brain. Even if you debunk one "theory" in front of their eyes they will find ten more to take its place. Like religious people the best thing you can do is be there to support them if they come to you, if ever. Oh and load up on prevention by teaching kids critical thinking and scientific method - all of which are under attack or absent from the education of many, especially those who are home schooled by the rationally impaired.

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aegyptiangod (40) · 7 years ago

There's a laundry list of conspiracy theories that are true.

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johnmarks (41) · 7 years ago

your news alltime best.....you really admireable for this work
go ahed and keep it up

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erodedthoughts (66) · 7 years ago

I have more important life to waste my time on than proving or disproving someone. That's the nice part about being a real person outside of the internet.

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https://steemit.com/conspiracy/@rentmoney/big-brother-is-always-watching

rentmoney (68) · 7 years ago

I love conspiracy theories. There are so many that it is only logical that a handful of them are true.

Just remember Big Brother is always watching and has his eyes on you :)

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guidov4 (29) · 7 years ago

It depends on the person you are talking to. There are people who aren't that far down in the rabbit hole already and could still be convinced that their conspiracy-theory-/pseudoscience-stuff is wrong. I once was one of these persons. There was a time when I believed in "Free Energy"-stuff but then someone left a critical reply to one of my comments and then I started to question this stuff and rejected it completely some day. In my case debunking this stuff has helped.

Ok, there are unfortunately also many people who are already very far down in the rabbit hole and aren't ready anymore to question this stuff. But I generally think, while it isn't always possible to convince conspiracy-theory-believers I still think it's a good idea to debunk their conspiracy-theories and pseudoscientific stuff independent from doing it in a debate with the believers or doing it without directly debating them and just generally debunking this stuff without mentioning specific persons because it could help more people like me once who still aren't deeply believing into this stuff.

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lunanightshade (46) · 7 years ago

Engaging conspracy theories, trying to debunk them ... is always a dual edged sword. On the one hand, bringing sound arguments may convince the undecided to not believe in them, but on the other someone firmly rooted in those beliefs will only see their beliefs validated.

Cnspiracy theories aren't math, so giving a counter example doesn't invalidate them, and using a scientific method doesn't work either, as those people aren't based on a firm scientific understanding.

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razibahmed (49) · 7 years ago

informative news...thanks for sharing

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winchestergirl42 (48) · 7 years ago

I think conspiracy theories are a good way to show your views , whether you agree or not , it a view after all, and if no none had views , we would not be here discussing this. But some can get quite obsessed with conspiracies , and it can meld into another way of thinking for them , be open minded and do not let it take over your life

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https://steemit.com/news/@clarityofsignal/52129u5y

clarityofsignal (63) · 7 years ago (edited)

Is it worth debunking conspiracy theories? Sure it is.... if you have sound factual evidence to back up your assertions, like I do. Go down the rabbit hole if you are courageous enough to be honest with yourself regarding this particular subject. Who knows.... it may help you define your perception of reality in a much broader light. You can thank me later. :)

Hadi and The White Helmet Boys - Hero's by Day, Terrorists by Night!

Massive White Helmets Photo Cache Proves Hollywood Gave Oscar to Terrorist Group

https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/02/27/massive-white-helmets-photo-cache-proves-hollywood-gave-oscar-to-terrorist-group/

Direct Terrorist Collusion: Over One Dozen Additional Videos Capture White Helmets Working Side-By-Side With Terrorist Groups in Syria

https://clarityofsignal.com/2017/05/08/direct-jihadist-collusion-over-one-dozen-videos-capture-white-helmets-working-side-by-side-with-terrorist-groups

Just a quick recommendation David, this subject is controversial and if you help expose it you actually could grow your audience and help bring some important truth to the world that actually helps aid in saving lives. Think about that please as the world needs more people aware of what is really happening in Syria. There is currently massive censorship being enacted to stop this revealing subject from seeing the light of day. The real fake news agenda has been enacted to stop it from coming out. That much should be obvious by now. Our media and government shaped perceptions of reality are being questioned more and more by the public because what is being disseminated by them as the "truth" is not matching what a great many people know to be true. Simply put up is down and down is up. We live in Orwellian times. Hence the reason for all the chaos.

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