The Odyssey of Flot Mas 48 - Vintage Panerai Related Ramble - Get some Java - LONG Post >>July 17 2016 at 2:50 AM
Hammer (Login ThunderDownUnder)
High Heid Yin
from IP address 101.165.236.55
A Bad Egg ? Not So EASY - the almost "Complete" Story of Flot Mas 48 >>>>
An Odyssey that started in the late 1980's all the way till just this last month where - the we share the story of Panerai 3646 Flot Mas 48 !!
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We will see that :
"One Singular Mistake"
"One's decision to omit a Crucial Critical "Fact"
Lead to the watches poor performance at the recent Christies auction and labeled as I heard - twice - (imagine how many people viewed ? and thought the same ? Not only the 2 mates who mailed me) but twice I heard that watch FM48 was a "Bad Egg" Meaning to many - (in a nervous environment as we see a little today) the watch is in the ??
"Too HARD" bin and Ultimately - PASS 😱😱
Not soooo FAST - Not so EASY - that's not fair on this Watch imho let's review the whole story as it is known now I have only just the final missing pieces to the puzzle - if ONLY they could have been known BEFORE the auction and not some weeks later - but I will find the new owner and make sure he is aware of all that I've come to learn on his new 3646 FM48 👍🏻👍🏻
Let's see what really happened and YOU decide is this watch a bad egg - "PASS" - or just a result of one bad singular choice and MORE - one - simply not sharing an important fact told to them when selling ?
Is that enough to dishonour the ENTIRE watch for many - as too hard - PASS - and not just a strange singular part being a dial (that was added for a REAL REASON but ultimately proved a bad choice) You say ? Pls do keep reading 🎈🎈
Ok - So recently in the last lot prestige and well known auctions where vintage Panerai continually proves to be a solid performer against many other watches (and all during the HORRIBLE recessionary down swing of the Swiss watch export industry) - Except one example - that being the Panerai 3646 Flot Mas 48 - as she arrived on the block at the Christies auction - there was a watch I've known for more than a decade - it was well known by many Risti also and owned by 2 of the best - upon the case back was the engraving -
"Flot Mas 48" - once you see that inscription - we never forget it !!!
It goes along with the other KNOWN respected and loved Flot Mas #'s inscribed the same way on the Caseback !!
Bearing such an inscription means this was a "VERY SIGNIFICANT" watch and ? on so many levels - I've known of the original owner almost 2 decades ago - through a mate in a far , far off land - then when it was sold in June 2000 to none other than : James (Mr Rolex) Dowling who was given the FULL Details about the DIAL Swap Necessity as well the full transparency about the history of the watch as he knew it during his ownership since @1989 -- GOOD ONYA T*^%#" in 2000 for passing that small but CRITICAL DETAIL along to the next buyer - that's the truth - and the ?? "ONE Singular Mistake" was that ?
The next owner who acquired the watch in July 2000 from a June 2000 posting where the owner since 1989 had mentioned it might ? be for sale (wait till below for that post) then - ultimately Sold FM48 - but it seems ? AFAIK ? NEVER gave this CRITICAL detail to the next ??
Somewhat uninformed & a bit unlucky Buyer 😭😭
ALL could have been avoided for FM48 if ONLY ?? But who's to say WHY ??
The "Seller" from July 2000 on - NEVER - ever shared that ONE "Singular Fact" - which created the whole BE - Red Flag I'll PASS / Mess - many would think it's bad form to say the least - not to pass any history known on a vintage watch when the buyer is about to make an acquisition even more over given the value of such a watch - I do think the responsibility of finding as many details as you can - lay on both the SELLER and the BUYER !!!! But this one is on the seller it seems 😢😢
Fwiw If I was selling a watch - a vintage watch I would provide the buyer with as much correct - factual - non conjecture - history when showing the watch that I know to be real - I think the seller has to be 100% Certain to supply such a detail (when known) - (what happened to it - and why) - to a buyer - which in this case was done in June 2000 and then NOT passed on to the one after who bought FM48 - (the dial swap) as the one we see on her still to this day - sadly 😱😱 it would appear that fact - was omitted ?? A crying shame is all 😭😭
So the watches history from decades++ (<1989) ago till today is compete save the years post June 2000 sale to UK watches - till - on or about 2004/5 when next she went to a Dealer in Miami known to have dealt with the sale of quite a few vintage Panerai - "The Watch Commander" in 2005/6 a Risti (some old skool m8's will remember name Rollin) had acquired the watch - I'm trying to find out the ownership linage from mr Dowling 06/2000 till when it when it was sold to Rollin by the Watch Commander ??? As mentioned when he decided to sell her >>>
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That doesn't change the outcome AT ALL it's just the only missing piece tracking the watch since the last 27 years - fwiw Anyone know any details of the ownership from July 2000-2004/5 ?? - I'm looking hard for this just to be 100% complete - but no luck so far - I'm waiting on replies - if ANYONE has a current email addy for Rollin Daniels could you please LMK ?
Seems the one he used back in the mid to late 2000's is no longer in use - anyway - later the watch was bought by another Risti - and one of the VERY BEST mates I have been blessed to know and known to all - Mr Donnie Edwards - then in Dec 2013 the watch was sold at Auction for $161,000.00 USD 😱😱🚀🚀
Dateline : May 2016 - up she's pops again but this time prior to the sale and hammer - some new visual observations were made by Mr Jose which showed something never noticed before - and he showed it very very well - as such - Red Flag 🎈🎈 the watch became broadly labeled - kind of as - a Bad Egg ? And a PASS after viewing the dial 😓😓 I I can understand why that would happen totally 🤔🤔🤔
2 mates emailed me about it who I knew were looking to buy an early Flot Mas issued type A-B-C 3646 and said they had looked at it and it was - in both - the same words - A BAD EGG ? They would PASS 🏁🏁
I just couldn't leave it alone - something just kept digging at me - such a watch full of honour and DNA - a bad egg ? What the ? How can that be ? But as you will see below the visual observations from Mr Jose seem to show certainly that the dial was a major concern to say the least 😱😱 and most likely a KS anonymous dial with OPEN 6 & 9 dial numbers that had been ? reprinted with the text :
Radiomir
Panerai
The unanswered question here is who engraved the KS dials, and when. Was it Sig Rinaldi (the source & seller) of the replacement dial found and bought in 1999/2000 ? (as we will learn of below) or was it by Panerai? I'd love to know the answer. Perhaps only someone in Italy knows the truth ?? They know who they are !! I don't 😥😥
This could/would have been done most likely ? to bring more value $$$ to the watch - in the maket place - the dials with Rad Pan were and are valued way more than a KS dial 3646 - and the watch is noted a Type C watch - so the Rad Pan dial was one that made sense on most levels (albeit we would expect to see today with that RED patina as found on other Flot Mas Matr N's) - but - the KS dials (which are easily spotted be the OPEN 6 & 9 dial numerals) were coming , and a slight , slight chance could have been correct on this watch but ? Not with the open 6&9 and Rad Pan print - that's a serious RED Flag 🏁 - enough to create serious DOUBT on the watch - the visual comparisons so well executed below would suggest that even if this watch was born with a KS dial - it had been reprinted with TEXT in Italy much later and if so ?? WHY ?? 😢😢
As an aside the text was NOT very well done - but very well illustrated you will see below - kudos for picking it up Mr Jose - in the past we NEVER think on such a question as we know proved many times over the years - when it come to vintage Panerai and Italy - pre / during / post WW2 - almost - anything is possible ! But now on this subject ?? we learn some new thinking 👍🏻👍🏻
And based on the dial observations - imho fwiw - the rest of the watch got lost to a major degree and she just went into the - too hard - too dangerous bin - PASS Bin - and I guess why I heard the BE reference - twice - 😰😰
Ohhhhhhh that Flot Mas 48 is a Bad Egg ?
I just couldn't put it all together until sadly some weeks after the auction - there was a time over 15 years where I was not the only one living , eating , breathing , sucking up knowledge and dreaming on anything Vintage Panerai related - but these days not so much - just no time - between the disability progressing and needing more management and time - the kids growing older and needing so much more time , money and management (of which they listen and never hear ahhhhh) I've just kinda move on - I enjoy my Vintage Panerai Collection - and I LOVE them - but the days of giving up everything to learn ?
Sadly - Are mostly behind me ?? Or maybe Not 🤔🤔🤔 need more hours in the day 🌚🌚
BUGGER me dead - I can't even get time to post and enjoy having FUN with my mates here - this post alone has taken so much time I should have spent elsewhere but it's worth it if the FM48 can be respected once again 🚀🚀
Back in the early 2000's so little was known - I used to be with a few mates calling on phone in middle of the nights talking - living - breathing - eating - sleeping vintage Panerai learning - it's was like finding history no one knew or was available !! No books - not real knowledge - there was indeed : Truly some "Indiana Jones" moments - Breathtaking Stuff 🚀🚀🚀
I can only speak for myself but in the early years. say starting around 2001 - there was a few of us that had the vintage Panerai FIRE ignite inside us -- again almost nothing was known - just those 2 small square OP books by Neg - but over the years till TODAY ? I know about 5-10 things that have never been in a book or shared anywhere by me - just small things and images of old I noticed - or were shown in private - or found when disassembling my vintage watches recently - I always felt was better NOT to show or share as ?
(That would only give a heads up to those few who try to make the perfect replicate of a vintage Panerai - so have a kept to myself - and just to prove a point ?? at the end of this post I'll share one for the first time - doubt it's ever been shown or posted before today - maybe it has - but don't think so - albeit will be giving those few - another way to make more authentic their precise work of replicating - but again - if it can illustrate a point I will)
Nothing like now - were we have the luxury to :
Actually compare books - content - price - value - what's to be learnt ? Etc etc - we each and all have different feelings on said - (just wish they (books) were cheaper but you get what you pay for and today's books aren't just books ? They are masterpieces with so much content and value) but like the Italian vintage rolex Mon/D books - for sure some are even more $$ but I think maybe less information on the broad subject matter ? Anyway each will judge the value of any book as to what it will teach them and what they will enjoy to see and read !
Again - You get what you pay for 😜😜
Now ? With these new awesome books we have ?? Even better - and more options ??? Not just other Vintage or Military Books ? NOW ? Books with Same SUBJECT matter - Vintage Years of GPF Panerai - we can actually have more than just 1 or 2 on the subject with some other Vintage PANERAI watch books ? Both OEM and all the rest privately 🚀🚀🚀🚀 the more information known the better I reckon 👍🏻👍🏻
I spent as much as I could in time and money from 2000 till today on building a library - it was like getting candy - all the books are great we each take what we want out of them - sure many on same subject just different POV's and Interpretations - of course the more recent hold the most updated information - enough rambling - let's get to the meat of it all ? Ok so please read below the work , thinking and visual comparisons of this watch by Mr Jose - (please excuse my terrible copy and paste I ended up using the email sent to me with copy first and images at the bottom - I suck as formatting but sure this will give you the outcome all the same) >>>
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Did get to format this bit at least >>
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Well done don't you think ? 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Now for me - I prefer "when & if" possible to use factual eventual proofs as a clearer way to provide conclusions - sometimes that's possible - sometimes it's not ! But if you can get more ways to look on something it's just better - one is great - two is even better - three ? Tough one TFS 🙏🏻🙏🏻
If ? I had the watch - to tell if the dial was a KS dial - it would be easy - regardless of any printing on the dial - if it was a true Rad Pan dial - the same - how ??? Well what I'm saying is that - each dial - that's true and original has presented to me consistent & unique radiation measurement signatures and there is actually a consistency when I look at all to draw more factual proof ? Well let me make a simple try to show - sorry u know I suck at the KOOL ways to present things 😱😱
Say a KS dial measured in a few ways with a Geiger machine , then do as many more as you can - and then you add and divide by number of examples and on a median baseline you get a unique radiation signature - keep it simple as that's all I am capable of - let's say on one test a :
KS median baseline on one test was a 100 tested in 3 ways !
Then say a median radiomir pan dial same tests a 200 in same 3 measures ! (And yes the will be variables between the A series till the end) - but amongst the groups more consistency can be seen !
Then say a median luminor dial same tests a 300 in same 3 measurements
Then say a 6154 same way - compare with another "Rad Pan" printed faded dial I could again see if was from a 6154 or maybe a 6152 - 6152-1 !!
Same with all the dial copy variants if you have a luminor that was really a KS with added copy - it will be close to 100 - not 300 - adding the copy of names won't change the baseline of radiation measures ?does that makes sense how I try to explain it (badly) ?
(Numbers are made up just for example but consistency is close between the dials radiation signatures)
Then go on with the remaining dial variants !
Now If a dial with print Radiomir Panerai added - is actually a KS dial and reprinted it should be close too a 100 ? NOT 200 - Then you have some small factual PROOF - not based solely on observations but together ?
Pretty damning !
2 ways (both very worthy) to know and learn - pretty much ? as far as we can get to be sure of which is which ? and what's right and wrong ?
I don't like to just focus on one singular thing - like a dial when judging a Vintage Panerai - its not a Vintage Rolex after all where the value is mostly in the dial - it's a military watch and with the 3646 even more it's a watch that went into action - so it's the whole watch I look at - not just ANY single part (like the dial in this instance) - she's a very different beast to say a Vintage Rolex where the dial is 97% of the value - for Vintage Panerai ? the movement - case - case back - plexi - crown et al etc etc - the whole watch counts - not just one part - and the more facts both visual and factual - micrometer calipers measurements - inside outside - vernier - etc etc - I take measures of thickness of movement plates and depth of engravings and fonts etc - so when I try to form an opinion I try - TRY - to get as many areas as i can to compare with watches I know the history complete on ! It's the total of as many tests that help me personally arrive at my own opinion - which is of no value to anyone except me - I'm never right - ask the misses - but for me when looking to buy a VP ? the more things I can compare with ?
The better assumption I arrive with !
I've measured allot of 3646 - 6152-1's - 6154's - all with the various possible dials we see and know ! And keep an ongoing data base - I've emailed many mates I know and asked for them to take 3 measures the way I do and let me know the outcomes ? It's something that's a works in progress - I'll keep building it - the more we can find out the better and safer it is for anyone wanting to feel and own the power of the DNA of Panerai 👍🏻👍🏻
Now - FINALLY - On to the Odyssey of the subject matter - "Flot Mas 48" - the watch as you will see below was presented - in June 2000 - which lead to the fast sale to Mr Dowling in July and he resold it on reasonably quickly - AFAIK .
What is also - NOW - presented in the below image for the FIRST time since 1989 AFAIK in public with ? the "Original" Dial that being - a pinned dial RP Dial - of which we all know had an insane amount of radiation in the lume and it had caused many dials to look more like a clam than a watch dial - you can see again in the image below - conditions of some said dials today - as such in 1999/2000 the owner had searched for a new dial to replace the one you will see - as by now it would prolly make a better ashtray than a dial - his ONLY mistake was to trust a dial he found for sale - (as his original had already started to shrink and WARP) - this NEW Dial he purchased is STILL on the watch today - - he had no idea if it was correct or not - as you can imagine in those years nothing was known outside of a small inner circle - so he bought the dial as represented - genuine Radiomir Panerai Dial - and placed on Flot Mas 48 - the watch was sold with this new dial and the history of the dial swap was well mentioned publicly in 2000 and - to the new buyer BUT after June 2000 ???
No Mention of the DIAL swap or WHY ?
Again AFAIK 😱😱😱😱 maybe this post may can illicit that information 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
And there in lies the moment the watch was doomed of sorts - simply by not giving the FULL documented & transparent history of the watch including the information of the replacement dial ? And NOT informing anyone of this CRUCIAL piece of information about the dial ? If he had ? Ohhhhh if ONLY ?
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We wouldn't be reading this today 😰😰
Now we find why Flot Mas 48 had the dial that in some peoples eyes earned the "BG" moniker and the - PASS - too hard bin - to consider to buy 😭😭😭
Had the owner found a true Rad Pan dial and placed on ? The watch would be a VERY , very different story and I believe would have done very well at auction as did the others - and more over what is important - the Respect - Honor - Integrity - would have stayed "Intact" 👍🏻👍🏻⚓️⚓️
If ONLY he found a different dial ?? but with no information known as we have today - how could he have ever known - that ONE singular mistake on buying that dial would lead to the watch being over looked - today - if ONLY the seller had passed this information on - why omit such a crucial part of the watches history ? Did he pass it on after the listing ? Doesn't seem so ? And to have never passed that on ?? Ouffffff 💥💥
Had the dial that was able to be bought back in those years been a clean true rad pan dial - Flot Mas 48 would still be respected and ??
THATS WHAT DROVE ME TO START THIS POST !!!
Nothing to do with values - it's sold and gone - it's just to show the watch seen for what she is - 🙏🏻🙏🏻 not what she isn't 👍🏻👍🏻
I only have wish - to prove the heritage of a special watch within newly found information - again to my mate in far far off lands - thank you for sharing the missing story that was never known in full !
Here is the missing link and cause of ALL BG on FM48 >> FM48 with it's ORIGINAL Dial in June 2000 >>>
Flot Mas 48 in the 1990's ! photo image_4.jpeg
you can see - WHY - the replacement dial was surely needed ?? this is the original Flot Mas 48's Dial in 2000 >>>
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How some Radiomir pinned dials aged & turned into clams! Don't think that's going to lay flat on the top plate TFS 🌊🌊⚓️⚓️
Today --- 😱😱 -- Clam me baby - this can be the Look >>>
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The post with full disclosure that lead to the sale to Mr Dowling>>>>
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Forgive the poster for his spelling & Roman numeral errors - but the guts of it tell the story well and truly regardless >>
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How the watch would have looked perfectly original - since birth and owned by same person since at least 1989 - you can see it's the same watch look at the strap and the scratches it's deffo the same watch and is Flot Mas 48 >>>
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How the watch looked in June 2000 (replaced dial, some lume missing, scratched caseback) >>>
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How the watch looked in July 2000 when advertised for sale on >>>
Flot Mas 48 in 2000 apres dial change - notice CORCKSCREW background ! photo image_22.jpeg
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These 2 sets of pics together show that the case back was polished and the hands relumed shortly before being offered @ www.ukwatches.com >>>
Mr Dowlings For Sale Page - Not the CORK Background !! photo image_21.jpeg
Please do Read the description very carefully - and maybe then read it again - it says that the watch is the most original Panerai that the seller had ever seen . . . . original case, strap, buckle, lead seals, and glass albeit the replaced DIAL is not disclosed ???
Now I ask you ?
If this watch had this original CLAM dial sitting next to it and as well the history of WHY ??
Another dial (correct RP) was fitted known - would she still be viewed as a Bad Egg or ?
Would she have been the buy of a decade at the hammer price of CHF 37,500 ?
You decide ?
Bad Egg and PASS ?
Or ??
Totally understandable and just a matter of a singular bit of bad luck and judgement (who would have known back all those years ago) the purchase of what he thought and was told was a true RP dial matching to the original Rad Pan - and then simply ?? one person NOT sharing the history on the above said dial replacement of the watch when selling her on !
And to HIGHLIGHT this post & point - just recently a watch that was a 3646 with brass FUZZY dial was bought at auction and the new owner decided for his own reasons to swap the dial with a CALI dial - his watch - his right - (fwiw imho ONLY - I don't agree with it personally - as to have taken the dial that was with the watch for 72 years out and replace with a new part never before with the watch - but I can understand why he wanted to do it - Cali Dials ROCK - so so sexy - ♥️😄👍🏻🏁
NOW ?
That watch is for sale - but with FULL transparency (Good Onya M 👍🏻👍🏻) about the dial and the original dial comes with - I can only hope the next new owner might give thought to putting her original parts back together again and complete the 72 year old beauty to ORIGINAL again - but that will be his or her choice I have no right to say only speaking for my own thoughts ♿️🔫🚽
STILL ?? Now we have the Internet we can be sure that should this info of the dial swap be lost between sales ??? The truth won't be LOST as with the case of FM48 NOW ? If only everyone had the Internet and a crystal ball and could see the future I'm sure better records or repairs - service work et al would be included with the watch when selling ? 70 years of a specific vintage watches history ? is hard to find on the net TFS 🐓🐓
Takes a lifetime to prove something is right and only minutes to speculate it's not and bring doubts 🤔🤔
Some will be spot on - and some can not be - no one will ever have everything correct - we all make mistakes - me ? About 20 times a day !
But the more ways we can find to understand something that is for sale can only be a GREAT THING ♿️😄👍🏻
Kudos to Mr Jose for spotting and highlighting a never before thought on the crooked TEXT - many a KS dial is tilted but have to agree with him 100 - that dial was reprinted with RP - so it seems and only a radio signature can be the final proof ! Thank you to him for allowing me to use some of his work - cheers Pablo wink.gifwink.gif
Can we ? "Bring Back" allot of the integrity and recognition and save the honor of Flot Mas 48 - albeit with a strange and not original to the watch dial ??
I can only hope so - I just can't see such a watch - now that the history is known - remain for some as - a Bad Egg - not for me and IF I had in my possession a correct Rad Pan dial - I'd be sending to the new owner of Flot Mas 48 as a gift to do what I could to help her look like what she as a whole is - a significant and spectacular piece of the vintage Panerai watches !
Kaka - In this instance we actually - find some proof of a change made that was actually documented - having the Internet "Solely" brought this possibility a reality to regain lost information exactly as it is with FM48 ! Even in 2000 that information was for many not even worth passing along - no one could have ever imagined that so many decades later the watches would be judged with such intensity - from outside - and we can't find all the history on the Internet as it wasn't even a reality yet - some things before the Internet ? Can never be found by searching - well - historically I've seen this and imho fwiw 😆😆
If anyone who has a blog or a site containing this watch could they please consider to update with this new information (IF they agree or find any merit in their own opinion) and help save some of the integrity of a very significant piece of GPF History - respectfully and PLEASE 🙏🏻🙏🏻 Onya M8's 👍🏻👍🏻🏁🏁🏁
And if I have anything wrong (prolly do) or mistakes pls LMK ?? I'll update the post any help or clarifications is most welcome - the blunder down under did his best - your mileage as you know well - will vary 🤔🤔
In addition - Now ---- I Wonder ?
How MANY times has that happened to a "Vintage Panerai" - during a 70+ year period ? Try to Imagine from birth - departing Firenze - most likely to La Spezia , Island of S ? or ? - then some pre WW2 - training - testing - and finally during operations away a ways from the place of birth - during WW2 then ? For the 70+ years after ? These watches had almost zero value - no one cared much about them & many a man even broke off a lug so as too use as a Fob Watch with Chain - but still - indeed many were used and during such a LONG time span on a watch that had no commercial value - when needed ? they were fixed and no one would have ever though to document any changes - Who ? Where ? Why ?
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As if ANYONE could possibly imagine the future ?? back ALL those decades ago - heck - they were fixed the cheapest , fastest and easiest way they could be - even at the start of 1990 the values where less than >$1K - during that time from 1945 till say 2000+ (55 years) who could have ever imagined ?? they would become what they are today ? If only right ??? many would have kept - recorded service and repair work - and cared for a bit differently - to say the LEAST - but truly ?? No one cared about creating and maintaining a historical history of the watch - so we can expect to see many of these vintage watches with some service and repair work - changes from original - chances are we see many arrive that way as we do completely original - some were stored and never used but ? many were indeed used and as such with any mechanical thing - parts wear out - accidental drops and bangs were common especially when there was no value attached - service and repairs were done anyway they could be from 1945 till today - so it's pretty hard to place them under observations now - whilst all is in one piece - looking in from OUTSIDE - and see this or that clearly - and then make a conclusive judgment - if "ONLY" - it was so easy and clear - imagine a broken watch in say - 1971 - in turkey or Egypt or ?? that stopped working and needed to be fixed ? Many were Momentous or valued to the owner for sentimental reasons - They had no chance to get spare parts from Panerai - like we can today - the local fella / bloke / tech or mr fix it would do his best to bring back function - even better ? A watch maker ? (watch maker's if they even had access to one were a luxury for many back then pending their location and spare money) - or even the owner (as we have seen) would use whatever they could to simply make function again the watch without even a SINGLE thought about the year in 2016 when many are looked at and judged based on appearance only - too often the decades has seen information that was of ZERO use or thought back in the year - never passed on - so many of the vintage Panerai were found after a passing of a grand father or veteran and sadly no one would have ever thought to document any changes and even if they did ? Was that info passed along over the 75+ years ? NOPE not likely at all - watches with zero collectability and zero interest from the 1940's till the late 1980's - but with the invention of the Internet - and the search feature here ?
No matter how much logic and guessing we can do today ? It's near impossible with some things to ever know exactly 100% - what's right and wrong on a vintage watch like a 3646 that's 70+ years old - we can't always bring the exacting swiss logic - to an Italian history - that model of learning isn't so exacting in Italia since 1940's - well every nation is unique - as is Italy - things like FORM - often ?? are better than Function - even worse ? Look at Australia - were all crazy - everyone knows that - in the north it's even worse - we drink beer that has only one letter - but same letter 4 times in a row hahaha 😄👍🏻 but for me - fwiw I look at it this way ?
If a watch is 100% original to what we know ? I place a higher value on it $$ wise - if over its lifetime some changes have been made ???
I just adjust my value accordingly - example ?
If a vintage Panerai 3646 or any ref - have a crown let's say that's not the birth crown - crowns are one of those parts that simply are consumables if used - so if a different crown is on ? I revalue accordingly - or if has a different balance - or if a different strap or if a different gear or wheel ? It just helps me value the watch - not everything is so Black & White from 1940's-till the 2000's on - will always be from Italy some Grey - but for sure - all that we can learn now - surely does help reduce the grey and that's the real metric of success - the more we can learn the better - and I'm all for that - but let's also save some things private - to enable a few people that can jointly - afford the best outcome to anyone looking to buy a Vintage Panerai ? That's what matters MOST right ? If we can make the world of VP a safer place then it's all GOOD 👍🏻👍🏻🏁🏁
Albeit - accordingly - imho - let's think twice on any Vintage Panerai - that might not fit a perfect formula we know - maybe allow some benefit of doubt ?? And FURTHER inspections before casting doubts conclusively anyway 🚀🚀🚀
Surely we see above how something as small as a dial swap - truly done for a reason - original dial wouldn't lay flat and allow the watch hands to pass or even the bezel to be able to seal. And without this post ?? Always be known by some as a bad egg - when history is missing it's easy to jump to a conclusion but allow - some room - not everything from the 1940's till today is documented & forwarded over its lifetimes as it passes hands - even MORE so when NO ONE would have ever expected it to matter or care as we do today !
Vintage Panerai - NOT so easy or so fast 👍🏻👍🏻
OK Now to proving a point - solely to bring some credibility to this subject matter ? I've known that the brass dial you see below - was as well early outsourced to some ?? other Swiss companies for the base brass dial plate ?? I can tell you exactly how many suppliers were used - outside GPF - and I can tell you how to tell which is which - there is a tell tail sign if you know how to look for it - so as soon as this post is up - there - will be a few people now already looking and trying to find it - and when they do 😭😭 I guess those few can make sure they copy it - IF they understand the time line of production then what is what - and where goes to where - and what fits factually with the rest - now - that's just one thing I've know that I've never mentioned to anyone - never been in a book - because ?
Let's be clear - this is ****REALLY**** important - I'm talking ONLY about those rare individuals who SELL - no one else - only those who try to DECEIVE in some way and then ?? SELL ON - trying to look like something it is NOT ??? Misrepresented and ----- Then ???
Attempt to SELL it 💥💣💥💣
Having - Sold ?)? for Moi ? (that's the straw breaking the camels back) - they try to misrepresented and suggested is REAL to achieve one outcome ??? Pure PA$$ION = Puke 🚽🚽
And - there in - That is the DANGER - the moment someone tries to say it's REAL and look to Profit ? That is the TRIGGER point for true RED FLAGS - there is PASSION ?? And there is PA$$ION - the more facts we share and show ? In PUBLIC - The better the watches that try to pretend will be ? and that's the HARDEST part - 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 - Do we give away ALL secrets ?? that have helped a seller make some serious $€£ ?? or do we keep a few in private to help later on ?
Managing the line between has been for me and others ? the hardest thing - I've read some things that I can show factual evidence they are so WRONG - and can prove it with an image or fact I have now - but to do so ????
Removes one last remaining Security Check ⚓️⚓️ 🏁🏁🏁
One of the various ?? supplied BRASS dials :
photo 5812FC73-E691-45F4-97AF-A2B6FB922704.jpg
Now this is the Brass "FUZZY" Dial - 3646 variant - this is the dial that was found on the recent 3646 I mentioned above - this dial due to the flat construction where the GPF radio lume applied on top of the top plate - and has plenty of "Gamma Kick" be sure - it can only fit the slim case and lunette (bezel) and can only be fitted with either a Cali Dial (also has a solid radio signature along with all the rest of the dials) OR - this - the FUZZY Dial - I actually really dig it - but as usual - I'm mostly alone on that thought haha >>>
photo 2FC5163D-D56F-445F-A109-47186AB1FBF4.jpg
I keep some OTHER things to myself (I have one that will BLOW people away) wait for it - if I'm allowed to share this one will on a post ?? - will blow VP passionate minds away TFS - I may be able to show it have to see - would love to post on it - ohhhh would I - but would be ? purely ? to prove a point - it does show something that not everyone believes at the moment - all this does in reality when looking deeper ? Is give specific information that may be BEST kept - private as it has been and as many others are - reality of sharing it ? - sadly - is helping the artisans who try to make something that's NOT what it IS - look like something it is NOT ?
I collect the Vintage Panerai watches and tools (added some tools recently as bijo always said Tools are KOOL) - simple as that - in the last 2 years I've been blessed to find or rather - 2 found me - so KOOL when it happens - like that - and I always wanted to know when I bought a watch IF the watch is matching all the known formula's and checks firstly - but also those I know myself - I want to be sure if I'm buying a watch of this nature that I can be sure in - myself - of what I buy - lately it's like being back at school in the office - I'm looking at old emails - long before became gmail - and even older hard drives - finding so many things I'd forgotten - way too many TFS - hahaha - but I'm back learning things I had simply forgotten - or hadn't made the connection yet - wow did I pick up some things - and as well - I have taken every single vintage watch I have apart - and inspected every singular part - in total anal OCD style - so if ever again I have the chance to acquire a VP watch - again - I always get a chance to look and inspect in my hands and on my bench before I ever conclude the deal - I believe I can be 95% sure if I have the watch and am allowed to disassemble the watch - some can't sleep with 95% - some want 100% - which is possible but can cost allot more - so if ever a mate ? Or even me ? want to insure a watch they want to buy is real and parts have been together or not ? Or for how long together ? to the best of all things known ?
Bring to Aussie and we look under the scope - I believe the truth can always be found in the SUM of parts - not just any singular part - easy to swap a dial or change a wheel or gear or end stone or pinion or balance or etc etc - but BLOODY hard to create all the parts then try to make a complete watch - some parts can even be real - some can be ? 95% real - but if you view every single part - I'm happy to sleep knowing that you can find the truth - if you really want too - and have NO agenda preceding 🌅🌅🌅 inspections - well - that's the blunder down under - Consider the source and your mileage will vary - I'm sure some will find ways to twist or misrepresent something/s in this post - it's long enough - rambling on as always - and I have no doubt it may come back and haunt me but - so be it - I'll not reply in public is there is ANYWAY to avoid it 👍🏻👍🏻
PS
If only I knew before the FM48 auction - I'm sure 100000% - so are some others - things would be different at that auctions hammer - and if ?? I had the Cashola $$€€££ - I'd have wanted to own that watch - at that money ?? it was for me a bargain of a decade - to say the least !
Now when am I going to win that damn Lotto ♿️😄👍🏻🏁
PSS
Fwiw - on emails owed - BUGGER I've been sick (better & worse) for the last month - no huge thing - as we say in the game - spinal cord injuries are the gift that just keeps giving - hahaha - some super bug - not sensitive to the oral antibiotics for first 3 weeks - and had to get some IVAB's - I'm finally (🙏🏻🙏🏻) on the mend - I started this post weeks ? almost a month ago but only able to get it done now - next for sure is catch up emails 😱😱😱
M8's sorry hey - and after that I'm back again posting - and took a bunch of questions I've picked up from reading the forum before I got sick - to OP - can't wait to share some answers on a few with you all 😄👍🏻
HAGWE M8TES ♿️😄👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
From my "Heart of Hearts", for any Help, Support or Simply "Spreading" the WORD .......... Thank You
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LEND A HAND ANYWAY YOU CAN
"If I can encourage one person with a disability to be active and live well, and if I can tell them about a product or service that will help them achieve that, then thats a great day for me".
Cheers and Best Wishes Hammer happy.gif)
Sent from my iPad happy.gif
Please excuse the Typos , Auto Corrects and Brevity happy.gif
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From my "Heart of Hearts", for any Help, Support or Simply "Spreading" the WORD ..........
!!!!!!!! Thank You So MUCH !!!!!!!!
happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LEND A HAND ANYWAY YOU CAN happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif
"If I can encourage one person with a disability to be active and live well, and if I can tell them about a product or service that will help them achieve that, then thats a great day for me".
So much MORE than just a Watch wink.gif
What Watch ,, it's the M8TES behind my brand that I LOVE ,, the Watch is just the GPS wink.gifwink.gif
A decade on ,, I COPY it now ,, More than EVER b4 >> it's a PANERAI behind every Panerai is a PANERISTI happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif