Debunking Religious Notions - Rebuttal of @gavvet 's : Entropy vs Christ

 
I advise you not to read further if you are religious and/or easily offended.
 
I am a polyatheist (there are many gods I don't believe in). I never discuss religion to "show off" or to hurt people on purpose. Things change though when I see someone parading religion as the ultimate truth either directly or indirectly. @gavvet has been a bit forward with his beliefs so I am joining in the debate. I know @dantheman posted some things a while ago and his dad @stan rebutted it but seriously, some of the posts @gavvet has gathered recently (in order to make a series theme about faith) are borderline insane and need to be called out and subjected to public enquiry.
 

Forget About Science Vs Religion

I really despise most neoatheists’ stance towards religion. During the last decade or so, the action of non-belief has turned into a childish battle between science vs religion— ‘evidence’ took a central role for both sides. This is non-sense. Belief is contra to evidence. Science and Religion can co-exist in someone’s mind as separate realms. We do it everyday with concepts such as abusive love. One can love someone who is hurtful and be blindly stupid about it—like ignoring friends' advice—and still be able to operate as a rational being in the office producing excellent work. Humans are excellent hypocrites and carry tons of cognitive dissonances.
 
One cannot possibly use science in order to demonstrate belief or disbelief towards religion. The reason is simple; Science evaluates constantly and what it can be demonstrated today, can easily be refuted later on. Science is also subject to interpretation and public acceptance. Democracy usually takes over and as we all know, truth is almost never democratic.
 

”I Got Proof”

Whenever I see someone trying to provide "proof" for their religion is like watching relatives saying "Oh look at that baby boy, it looks like the father". No. It doesn't look like the father or the mother or the anxious uncle. It is a 48- hour-old toddler. It might as well look like a potato.
 
 

The commentary from relatives exists as a reassurance for the family that the baby belongs to the father. It is something cultural. A lie we all agreed to say to each other in order to make us bond in stronger clans. Belief works better if many people get into it. The difference between religious cults and someone who talks with flying elephants at an asylum is the number of people. Nothing else.
 
If you feel the urge to provide "proof" for your religion(theist) or irreligion(atheist) then you lost half the battle. Faith is not about "proof" or "evidence” but about belief. Irreligion is about non-belief. In both cases what matters is that they are very personal and subjective realms. If you are a religious Christian, this aspect is outlined very clearly in the Bible, which is afterall the word of the the Christian superdude. And please, refrain from saying “I don’t follow the Bible but Jesus”. You got to know Jesus through the Bible. You can’t treat a holy text like a buffet and expect people to take you seriously.

John 20:29 “how blessed are they who have not seen but yet believe.”
Romans 14:22 “The faith which you have, have as your own conviction-”
2 Corinthians 4:18 “We look not at things seen, but at things not seen.”
2 Corinthians 5:7 “for we walk by faith, not by sight.”
Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”
Romans 1:20 “the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood from the things that are made.”

Now, I am not going to fill this page with excerpts to make a point. You can google them yourself. For starters, every single post made about the existence of Jesus as a person is false for one basic reason; Interpretation. Simple deductive reasoning and being honest with yourself when it comes to matters of the origin of something when all you have is a book.
 

The Blinding Personal Bias

You are Christian @gavvet because most likely you were born in a Christian country. Another religious fellow from another religion can speak about scientific evidence and the existence of their own hero. What stands out as “scientific” can be very misleading. Even scientific evidence can be interpreted in different ways if one wants to “prove” something. Science never “proves”. Science only demonstrates. So far the Christian faith has ZERO evidence for Jesus existing as a real person performing all the things described in the Bible. I am certain that some kind of Jesus or even Jesuses existed at one point (more like the wise fellow in the village we all know), and some people really pushed the stories, combined and spiced them up. Humans do this. We lie in order to impress.
 
 

 

The Sheer Absurdity

In his first post @gavvet claims that Jesus has power over death and can save us from death. This is logically inconsistent. It takes faith to jump from the one part to the other. Only faith. There is no evidence of this happening other than a 2000 year old book. A book I might add that was probably written by goat herders in the middle of the desert. When? in times when most people didn’t know how to separate fact from fiction—no copyright laws either—as most content of the christian faith has been stolen from previous religions. As you can see the faith factor needs to pile up in order to buy into it.
 
Let’s expand even more. If Mary, mother of so called Jesus, existed she must have been the most amazing con-artist that ever lived. Respect to her. Imagine going up to your husband and saying. "Look ...Joseph, I know it sounds weird ..but ...I am pregnant even if we didn't have sex. You see, last night…. God...hmmm... came into my sleep!.... and we got kinky and all…. with a... lily! I am having his son! Do you feel blessed Joseph? Do you?”. Not only she convinced her man about her cheating but the entire town. So much that it started a cult. If this was to take place today it would brake the ratings on Jerry Springer.
 

“But the Miracles!”

Most of the “amazing things” described in religious books such as visions, resurrections, people getting demonised, angels, dragons and all that cool stuff are actually stories, fables—much like the ones in Hollywood. They didn’t have cable or video games back then. People still needed to have some fun. Stories along their imagination was all they got. Most of the times they tried to pass ethical messages through their stories. Some stories ended up being religion since they were carried from mouth to mouth like a broken telephone game.
 
The absurdity hides in the details. Take for example the Resurrection which is central to the Christian faith. Jesus supposedly got resurrected right? As it happened the earth split in half and all the dead rose along his side.
 

and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life - Matthew 27:52

Seriously? The zombie apocalypse actually happened based on what the Bible sais? What happened to all those zombies? Are they still around roaming the earth? Why would any rational being buy into this story other than it was written in an “ancient book”? Let’s say you went to a toilet in a foreign country. You picked up from the magazine stand an old book of that country to kill some time in the loo. You read about the zombie apocalypse. Would you seriously say “Darn, I have seen the light!”.? The only reason people believe this nonsense is because we were brainwashed into it by our own culture.
 
 

Let’s examine the links posted

1/ >The Fossil Argument for the Existence of Jesus from @alexbayman

The Bible is proof for Christianity as much as Harry Potter is proof for magic. Fans and followers don’t make something true. Quite the contrary. Truth is rarely democratic.

Christianity was actually invented much like all the other religious and cults that you mention. Here is the man who invented it. A psychopath emperor, in order to raise an army of fools to fight for him bravely.

2/ >The biological father of Jesus from @miguel12

Jesus is a name. ‘Christus’ is a title and it means more or less ‘teacher’. It comes from the greek “χρισμένος” (chrismenos) and it means ‘the anointed one’. Pretty much every person that knew how to read and write back then carried the title. They were many “Christuses”. It remained in history as “the teacher” due to the followers. Same happened to “The Dude” from The Big Lebowski although we call our friends “dude”. No need to extrapolate nonsense semantics based on just a title. There are no secret names or hidden powers behind names. In the same way a girl named Midori (the colour green in Japan) does not have the power of nature (although many people in Japan believe this). Believing something does not make it true.

As for the rest of the article. Holy shit @miguel12 . That’s just trippy.

3/ >Is there a religious basis for science from @business

Science is a tool. Religion is a form of human inquiry and it can also be used as a tool. Obsolete tool, but a tool nonetheless. Just because some scientists were religious it doesn’t make religion ...scientific. In the same way, just because you are standing in a garage it doesn’t make you a car. I know. Amazing realisations.
 
Please refrain from posting such ideas because I am still young and I don’t want just yet to lose hope in humanity.

4/ >Jesus Christ Never Claimed That He Is God, Instead It Is Mentioned In Several Places Of Bible To Worship Only ONE God! And Why Muslims Are TRUE CHRISTIANS? from @princewahaj

Most of the document is nonsense and it can be turned upon itself. Example:

But unfortunately due to the same mindset, we see today that there are large number of Atheists because their main focus is to look at followers and judge by the cover of religion (Cover of Religion = Followers). In their view, the whole universe exists by chance, probability and yet they are not ready to believe that money can be planted from earth by chance and yet they go for jobs, yeah? But for what? to make money? If you're saying that this universe is a result of chance and there was no God who caused this universe to exist then why you can't believe that money will be planted for you automatically?

Well, if @princewahaj accepts that something cannot occur by chance then how the heck did the Christian God came to be to begin with? Who created God? If he accepts that God came out of nowhere then why you have any problem with the universe existing from nowhere? If the answer is that “there is order” then kind reminder that 99.99999999% of the entire universe is a desolate dark place inhospitable to any form of life. Even here on Earth. This planet is called ‘earth’ but 75% of it is filled with saltwater—something that humans cannot even survive upon or under. If God created this planet with an “intelligent design in mind” and the entire universe just to make us part of an elaborate survival scheme on a suspended rock in space, then surely he is a masochist, a bad architect or both. Definitely not something be worshiped.
 
I am not even touching the rest of the article since it is borderline insane.

>Back to your assertions @gavvet .

Science is about the How - Religion is about the Why

 
This is a sophist’s mantra being repeated over and over again with no basis to reality. Science is about the how and the why. The why belongs equally to science as it does to religion, fantasy, and everything else in between. The why is subjective and anyone can ascribe any meaning to anything. Religion is something personal. Also, as we have seen lately from neo-atheism, even atheists can act like religious folks. Religion is a cultural phenomenon. Philosophy counters and answers the “why’s” of religion much more efficiently. Science in return is philosophy 2.0. It can give better answers to our questions but it is not to be taken...religiously as many today seem to do.
 
 

 

Making the Right Questions

@dantheman describes in his post how he rather escaped from Christianity but really he is in the same page as Pascal and his wager. Both are making the wrong questions in regards to “God”. Most atheists make the same mistake as well. This is also why I refrain from calling myself an atheist but rather a polyatheist.
 
The question “Is there a God” is false. If you were writing a program @Dantheman and you were that vague it would crash. It is like saying “Is there chair”?. You have to define which chair. Where. Describe the context of that Chair. Give parametres and specific values. Therefore, when one makes the question about God they have to be equally specific. For example. “Do you believe in the existence of the Christian God of the Bible as endorsed from the approved Orthodox Books?”. Because really, all the evidence a religious person can have as evidence is old books that were treated like an open edit wikipedia article. Amazingly enough, believers of the other ~16,000 religions all over the world, provide their own ancient texts as evidence. Just because something was written down it doesn’t automatically transforms it as evidence.
 
The concept of one God (Yahweh), as described from the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam is something new. New doesn’t necessarily mean correct. All these religions came from more ancient ones, specifically Mesopotamian and Egyptian that were polytheistic. This is why you have Jesus (Q-like Start-Trek guy) and then you have lesser X-MEN like individuals called angels. Religions always had a pantheon of Gods because people wanted to be strong, important, smart, be able to fly (or float on water), foresee the future and so on and so forth. Humans write a lot about what they want to become. Wishes are not evidence.

Closing this long rant please also note that we live in a universe with trillions of galaxies containing billions of planets each. It is extremely naive to assert that Jesus saves from disorder. The whole universe is based on seeming order. The concept of order is subjective and demands a certain perspective. What is order for the spider is disorder for the fly.
 

Take a step back and consider the concept of “God”. A dude, all perfect, all awesome, bored as fuck jailing Sims-like individuals into a matrix, an illusion. A game, with a specific algorithm we call “natural laws”. If this is true then don’t be surprised if God is a spoiled teenager from another dimension in his room having fun. He tortures us with diseases, catastrophes, illusions, pain. A sadist testing his subjects. If we succumb to his game then we will be placed in a special part of the program in a state of trance in order to repeat paradise-like illusions. For Ever. I can come up with hundreds of these likely scenarios but never forget that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Just because I can connect the dots with recent scientific evidence (universe being a hologram and all) I cannot make up and story and just say “It is possible to be true, therefore i can believe it). That would be intellectually dishonest since there is a gazillions of these stories in different religions around the world, but, weirdly enough one choose to follow just one.

Have even considered the subjected of living forever? Have you seriously given enough thought towards infinity? Scale it down to pizza eating. Imagine eating pizza for a week. Awesome right? Imagine eating pizza for 4 years straight. Now imagine eating pizza FOREVER. 'Forever' is the biggest torture that can exist. We just don’t realise it because we have been brainwashed from a young age to fear something completely natural. Death.

(I will be writing more in the future. I stop here because this post is getting way too long)

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