Poll: Flags or Downvotes?

https://steemit.com/steem/@transisto/improving-negative-curation-a-downvote-button-vs-flag-explained-condenser

transisto (74) · 6 years ago (edited)

Yes

Downvote button next to the upvote one that cannot go below 0 rshares (hide content)

List top votes with downvotes at the bottom. (less visible)

We could extract some very valuable curation from the few downvotes that may occur.
It won't affect the reward distribution or "people exploit the rewards pool" until there are cheaper downvotes implemented in the form of a separate downvote pool that doesn't take from your upvoting power.

$2.87

borislavzlatanov (54) · 6 years ago

If the downvote button is next to the upvote button, then I think it's certain that some of the time (even if it's less than 1% of the time) people will click the wrong button by mistake. I would consider it bad User Interface and Experience design. If the buttons are not at all close to each other, it would be much better.

transisto (74) · 6 years ago

Each side of the reward amount was suggested.
That's close enough for people to understand they are related.

themarkymark (78) · 6 years ago

If it doesn't hide content, how do you deal with people retaliating flags with dick and shit pictures?

$0.00

munter (8) · 6 years ago (edited)

The problem on Steemit is not dick and shit pictures - hell, they would be a lot more interesting than 90% of what is being posted now, the problem is that all the real bloggers have been driven off the platform by relentless flagging by hundreds of bots belonging to whales.

It's interesting in a perverse way of to see the controlled upvoting on the comments on this ridiculous "poll" - this really has to be some kind of farce! Does anyone actually think any of this is real? I'd rather look at some dick and shit pictures.

Having this bullshit pinned to my feed as a "featured post" was the final straw that convinced me that Steemit really is all over...

And then seeing that a new downvote button is already there the very next day, on a platform that literally can't fix a major user interface balls up like no longer sorting followed accounts alphabetically, after many months, shows just want a con this "poll" always was.

I have no idea what the aim of Steemit's devious controllers really is, but downvoting and flagging is all about control, censorship, and profiteering. Which is why, like nearly all my Steemit friends, I have quit posting and given up on this platform.

jacobtothe (70) · 6 years ago

Spam, porn spam, bid bots, plagiarism, and other forms of abuse are rampant nowadays.

$0.00

freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

Author blacklist options in the interface?
I think steempeak already does this.

$0.00

themarkymark (78) · 6 years ago

That doesn’t solve the problem of the outside world stumbling across a post with 100 images of dicks because I flagged their spam.

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freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

If they see it on steempeak, it will.

Is there anything, other than interface blacklists, that can stop it?
It's just a fact of the blockchain until the population of those kind of folks decreases?

$0.00

themarkymark (78) · 6 years ago (edited)

Sites have moderators. On Steem that’s the community.

You can argue free speech and allow people to plaster dicks everywhere but is that what we want.

I recently flagged a spammer and he did just that. Posting tons of porn gifs in all my posts. I had a few people ask me if Steem turned into RedTube.

There has to be some way for the community to collectively moderate if we want to be decentralized without authority.

Think about what it makes us look like to the outside world looking in.

freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

I get it, and if your readers use your muting preferences then they will never see them.

Good luck getting stinc to do something like that, though.
They seem to be on the other side from most of us.

transisto (74) · 6 years ago

You use the flag for that.

$0.00

themarkymark (78) · 6 years ago

If there is still a mechanism for that then I am in agreement.

$0.00

shitbot (55) · 6 years ago

Speaking of shit, I took a dump in your wallet! Take a trip to the bathroom to claim your worthless SHIT!

$0.00

mattockfs (60) · 6 years ago

Yes and No, depending.

I would like to suggest the flag/down-vote terminology should be implemented according to impact.

If the flag/downvote is going to result in reputation damage, call it a flag.
If the flag/downvote only has concequences for the pay-out amount but not to the reputation, call it a downvote.

Ideally, I think, a change to the underlying APIs would be needed to further untangle the situation according to intent.

Ideally, a high-rep individual should get the option to do an actual downvote without reputation damage to the receiving party. That is, a high rep individual should get both options where the downvote option should be free of inflicting reputation damage regardless of reputations involved.
Expanding on this idea, a reputation-impact-free version of upvotes could help fix the inflated reputation problem caused by the use of bid bots. Allow bid-bots to drop their reputation lifting capacity voluntarily and user initiatives could declare open seizon on reputation-inflation bid-bot users if they would see fit to do so.

$2.59

14 votes

lauch3d (62) · 6 years ago

terminology is important, but it does not change the ontological state of the world. For the one who suffers from cancer, cancer is cancer. It does not matter to him/her that there is also a benign form. And this network suffers.

ideally, a network consists of users, it derives its value by the number of users or more correctly the number of connections which can be established between nodes. Humans have a sense of fairness and they want fairness.

What's the point in inflating one ideological opinion of a high SP account and force it up on the whole network? One opinion (regardless of the SP) ideally does not matter in a society and if the opinions matters due to an ill algorithm/politics aka. lobbyism, then it hurts the reputation of the network aka. society.

(Im counting down the number of daily active users since months now and it gets lower an lower)

we are a little bit up today @ 3900 Users lel. Subtract the bots, divide by the number of actual subnetworks due to language barriers and apply a network model (e.g. metcalfe) to those and you see that Steem is going to die (or simply look into your feed). When a network reaches a certain threshold, then each node comes to a point where it can't make enough connections to derive any use from the network anymore aka. it becomes a boring and useless platform. It does not matter if the remaining users are "whales" fuck them, really fuck them it would be also in their interest.

munter (8) · 6 years ago

Would I prefer to be spanked or beaten?

Well neither actually, which is why I powered down all my Steemit accounts and quit posting.

I wonder if whales will enjoy their public masturbation so much when nobody is watching...

donkeypong (75) · 6 years ago

Yes, it's a reasonable change, as long as it doesn't take 6 months to implement and delay other needed work. I'm pretty sure it's just the name of a button on the site.

$2.48

svemirac (71) · 6 years ago

Exactly.
Also put two button next to each other uparrow and downarrow...
BUt once again - not that it is crucial thing that needs improving at this moment - and all the things we are still waiting.

However keeping it just the same format I don't think will change anything.
Do you think people (small staked one) would actually downvote people with no-content-inside-thepost who self-voted to $50. when their upvote is 0.01... when the same account can destroy everything.

Now interesting thing would be anonymously reporting these posts and abuse to someone other than steemcleaners(with sooo large staked steem that can suppress any abuse) which would be reviewed and taken actions against (keeping the flag hidden above the post) and putting downvote near upvote.

$2.15

https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@steemlogin/steemlogin-a-new-and-easy-way-to-sign-in-to-steem

alexs1320 (71) · 6 years ago

Even better, make both buttons in 5 different styles and colours, to be more inclusive

By the way, something actually important, Log-In via FB, Google, etc...
Just published

$0.00

thedarkhorse (67) · 6 years ago

This is great. Allowing people to not worry about their keys each time they want to go play a game or make a post is what we need.

alexs1320 (71) · 6 years ago

That is one more selling point, look, people, it's so easy!

Hey, people, you know, there are two types of rewards, one is for curators and another one is for authors. You know, it was 75/25, but maybe, just maybe, it would be better if it's 50/50, you know. In reality, you will earn, something like a dollar or less, and you will be both author and curator no matter what. But, you know, it's like, you know, super important :D

this is not a selling point

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

I do see a problem with different colors though, what about the chromatically challenged co-Steemians?

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alexs1320 (71) · 6 years ago

A good point actually, upvote 4 you...

And this is why it should be done by a professional(s) :D

It's not easy at all

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michealb (66) · 6 years ago (edited)

lol, 6 months in debate first, then 6 months to get done

pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

This is the most surrealistic posting I have ever encountered on the Steemit platform.

I don't know whether these witness fucktards are serious or just laughing in our face.

$0.56

michealb (66) · 6 years ago

i find it interesting how a Yes or No question is answered. Yes button / No button. lol

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

And what colour should those buttons then be? And what form? Round, or square or rounded? questions, questions, questions...

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

lol

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jrcornel (84) · 6 years ago (edited)

Except in most cases it doesn't even actually get done in those second 6 months. See SMTs, communities, and most of the other things that were intended to add value. In all fairness if the chain couldn't scale it couldn't scale but supposedly now it can, at least in terms of costs, we will see what they do with that.

jrcornel (84) · 6 years ago (edited)

It seems like everything takes 6 months (or more) to implement on here...

13 votes

alexs1320 (71) · 6 years ago

In Former Yugoslavia, it was called "workers self-governing socialism".
Every factory was governed by common workers.
They were voting about everything, you know, what should be the colour of pencils and simultaneously Top Management stuff.

As you could imagine it was an epic failure

Because common workers know nothing about top management and top managers know nothing about nuts and bolts

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yoginiofoz (55) · 6 years ago

Sounds like the book, "Animal Farm." I wonder if the point (really) was to get the workers to mentally invest in their jobs more so they would be okay with working harder.

alexs1320 (71) · 6 years ago

It's a great question, and not intuitive at all.

Here is the trick, it's hard to work hard. You need to master the craft, you need to learn more, to compete, to be more and more creative.

In that case, some will become the true masters and those will be paid more, those will be wanted more. Those will be at the top.

However, in a system where all the people ~~are~~ need to be equal, you must create a different "scoring system".

It will not matter if you are the best, but some weird things, such as:

do you love your president
do you prefer Real Madrid or Barcelona
is your haircut straight
who was your grandfather and what he was doing

I'm serious about those questions.

Those gatherings of basically incompetent were used to enjoy the easiness of Dani Kruger effect, and "earn points". Just be loud and say that in leaders you trust and that you will never choose another path.

Who the hell is a doctor to tell me about vaccines? Who the hell is an architect to tell me how to build? Who the hell is an engineer to teach me how to make stuff?

Sounds familiar, right?

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yoginiofoz (55) · 6 years ago (edited)

If there is anything I have learned after being on this planet for 50 years is that one must dig deeper for the "real" information. One will never find it on the propaganda box called the television.

I appreciate your input @alexs1320. I will never know everything, so it is wonderful to hear your perspective. Thank you for taking the time to make such a thoughtful response!

alexs1320 (71) · 6 years ago

I like to talk to people who spent more time on this planet than me, because the official history is often forgetting one important thing: what was the sentiment?

Do you remember the euphoria from winter 2017, concerning crypto?

Today, there are more ATMs, better regulations, more users, more Apps, but something is missing.

There is no real progress. This is why I believe that this "decentralised, amateur, volunteers" can not work. This is a job for those with 5+ Million power and some Pros. Big contracts with influential people, companies, brands... And maybe, just maybe something could change

$0.00

yoginiofoz (55) · 6 years ago (edited)

For the last 3 decades (or more) it has been about building and supporting community for me, wherever I land. Also, defining and refining the word community with regards to my personal needs and wants over the years. I have been very lucky to have experienced many flavors and varieties of communities and my take-away is that we do actually need each other (probably more than we realize). We are being programmed to think that we can get along without the help of the other, but this is a false assumption.

I could wallow in the negative but I try to keep positive with regards to humans and where we are headed. I just take care of myself and my community and hope for the best. God willing something positive will happen that influences another generation.

jrcornel (84) · 6 years ago

Exactly. Then why are we repeating the same terrible ideas here? They know what needs to be done and they should just do it. Steemit.com is a private website, if we don't like it we can move to another app. Simple as that.

10 votes

alexs1320 (71) · 6 years ago

Because most of the people know History Channel History a.k.a. "maybe aliens".

We can move to another app. True, and that is what we are doing, Trybe is cool, a similar concept. And there are always FB, Insta, whatever.

The problem is one psychological phenomenon. Once you have invested the time, it's difficult to quit. The same goes for bad job, bad relationship, bad town, car...

jrcornel (84) · 6 years ago

Good points.

$0.00

fervi (66) · 6 years ago

Yes, it's a reasonable change, as long as it doesn't take 6 months to implement and delay other needed work. I'm pretty sure it's just the name of a button on the site.

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anyx (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

Yes.

Increasing downvotes is healthy and important for the ecosystem, so much so that I am still a strong proponent of a separate downvote power pool.
I agree with the other comments that downvotes should be more visually similar to upvotes -- it is an important UX decision that will be able to slowly change the culture to be more accepting of downvotes.
The two above changes -- separate downvote power, and equivalent UX design -- would go a long way to better sample both positive and negative feedback on a post and lead to more "fair" rewards.

One consideration would be the continuation of "flag wars" to "downvote wars". I'm not sure the best approach for avoiding this becoming more common (perhaps hiding the list of downvoters from Steemit's UX would help) but with more prevalent downvotes it is likely retaliation will increase. It is a consideration, but the benefits outweigh this concern in my opinion.

Finally, the new communities interface surrounding a new form of "flagging" should be robust. Moderation is very important for social networks, and having robust tools for community leaders to clean their space is a key element for having a good public image and leaving good impressions for newcomers.

$2.29

drutter (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

"Downvotes are healthy and important for the ecosystem"
They aren't talking about getting rid of them, so arguing for their validity is pointless. You fell for their strawman argument!
The issue at hand is: Is flagging a comment or post exactly the opposite of upvoting it, and should they be considered opposite sides of the same coin by the site and community?

Arguing that flags/downvotes are healthy is pointless. Nobody is saying otherwise. Literally nobody.

$0.00

anyx (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

"Literally nobody" -- not true, there are many users that argue for an "upvote only" system.
There are also many users who believe that the ratio between upvotes and downvotes should be high (for examples sake, say 90% upvotes 10% downvotes).

I'm not talking at all about their necessity, that's implied, my argument is that the ratio should be increased and more even for a healthier environment (for examples sake, say 75% upvotes, 25% downvotes). This can be achieved in multiple ways, as I explained above, such as removing the social barrier (UX) as well as the technical opportunity cost (downvote power separation).

drutter (69) · 6 years ago

Literally nobody in this discussion, anyway. Surely there are people who believe almost every possible thing that can be believed. But nobody in this discussion, or here in the post or comments, has that stance. Arguing against it here is silly, and off-topic.
What do you mean by the ratio between upvotes and flags? How could that be enforced, and why would we want to?

justineh (71) · 6 years ago

actually there are a few comments here referring to exactly that.. and there always is. As many individuals here don’t understand downvotes and why they are important, which is what anyx was pointing out. 🙂

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anyx (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

I wasn't even talking about it until you brought it up.

The ratio of upvotes to downvotes means that, either per-user or in aggregate of the whole system, how often is an upvote used relative to a downvote. If its 100%, then only upvotes are used. If its 90%, then for every 9 upvotes there is on average 1 downvote. And so on.
My opinion and argument in both of my comments is that the number of downvotes, relative to upvotes, should be higher (i.e. more downvotes) as it creates a more healthy ecosystem.

I never talked about enforcing -- it's about incentives (or lack there-of). I strongly encourage you to re-read my comments.

$0.00

freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

Long live the n2!

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aussieninja (62) · 6 years ago

Yes

Although, I'd really like to have both flags and downvotes. Flag for something inappropriate that should be hidden from Steemit.com and downvotes for posts/comments where I don't agree with the value awarded.

$2.29

dwinblood (73) · 6 years ago

Yes

This a good response. Disagreement and not liking something should not effectively censor it from view. The flag should be used for that. Though there is no real way currently to police improper use of the flag, and I don't expect that would change.

andrarchy (72) · 6 years ago

Great feedback! I agree

aussieninja (62) · 6 years ago

Thanks! Appreciate the feedback-squared.

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dramatoken (62) · 6 years ago

Please don't add any functionality that requires more training points.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

Outside of that value coming from abuse of the rewards pool whether you agree or not with what's been written should be limited to commenting your displeasure and a no deduction from rewards down vote. There's a reason they don't let the judge be the jury.

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aussieninja (62) · 6 years ago

Of course... I personally wouldn't downvote someone because I disagree with their content... I would either comment or ignore the post completely. My position still stands though, the flag should be used for content that shouldn't be seen on Steemit (say something completely plagiarized without sourcing the creator) or a downvote for something I disagree with the value of. If say, a simple low-effort selfie was upvoted to $1000.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

I agree with your assessment, I am completely the same way. I either ignore it, decide to leave a comment of disagreement or move on. The problem with the current system is it leaves those with power the absolute right to abuse the platform...I've just come to accept that's the way it is since nothing ever gets done about it. Funny thing is though is that it's usually those with power abusing the platform who will flag someone with less power for doing the exact same thing. (lol) I highly doubt my time spent here will change anything, nor most of those who've also made comments, these things never seem to equate to any meaningful change, just like politics, the power is in the hands of a few and those people will not vote against or change things against their own self interest....even if in the end the end result will be worse.

The best way I'd say, if I had to escape this mess, would be to put a heavier coat of lipstick on the pig, in other words use the flag system for people to flag for abuse that will bring down Steem Cleaners, use the old buddy system on steam cleaners to decide who gets to abuse and who don't (lol, you know, like your own brotherhood of whales...lol) (just the way life is sometimes), in the meantime let people who aren't abusing go at it freely without retribution, let those who earn rewards for comments and post that don't violate terms keep their rewards and let people show their dislike of a comment or post by downvoting it. A lot of times I will click on flagged post just because I want to see who/what/why it got flagged, downvoting may bring my attention to a post just as much as looking at the rewards...I have to admit sometimes I'd rather see why a post is disliked more than liked, the liked post usually are long, drawn out post getting rewarded for something that doesn't interest me at all.

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

I like this option as well.. it separates the two use cases.

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danielvehe (66) · 6 years ago

I think it's an excellent idea, because those of us with little SP could use the flag to warn about the abuse of the whales, but if there are only negative votes it would not help.
For example there are many who abuse the pool of rewards with bots and minnows we can not do anything because they return the downvote

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midlet (72) · 6 years ago

Yes, and to take it a step further you need to think about the visual communication of having the flag/downvote in a different place than the upvote button.

This communicates that these actions aren't related and it's inconsistent with every other social platform that has downvotes.

So something like this

$2.18

cardboard (61) · 6 years ago

This!

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drutter (69) · 6 years ago

The actions aren't related enough to be given equivalent icons in the same spot, though.
Upvotes are used to show agreement with comments and posts. Downvotes are to identify abuse of the system or users. There's a reason they aren't next to each other, and mirror images of each other.

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midlet (72) · 6 years ago

This misunderstanding actually proves my point. What you just said is what their design communicates, but no, they ARE opposite actions, and are NOT meant to show abuse. That's the whole reason this is being brought up.

drutter (69) · 6 years ago

No, you're re-writing history. That's not true at all.
Flags are to show abuse of the blockchain/website/users. Now they're being morphed into "disagree" or "I feel this post/comment is overvalued".

$0.00

midlet (72) · 6 years ago

The term flag is indeed as you defined it, which is why this conversation has been a recurring one in the community, but the technical application on Steem of a flag is LITERALLY the opposite of an upvote. As in it, consumes voting power, and removes a stake weighted amount of Steem, based on voting weight and power.

Typically a flag is a tool to alert site moderators of some sort of abuse so that they can take action. This functionality doesn't exist on Steem as there are no site moderators, and no person has the power to take any action against another user other than a downvote. This change would at least clear up this confusion.

I still doubt people will use them as this is a fundamentally different system, and the things that work on centralized, no money involved systems, just won't work the same here, but it at least make things clearer.

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trincowski (68) · 6 years ago

And here I was thinking that flags in Steem just meant: "I hate you."

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andrarchy (72) · 6 years ago

Great feedback!

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liondani (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

Keep both options, downvote & flag

1.What if the downvote could not be larger than the current biggest upvote of the post?

2.and flag should be by default 100% without option to change it

$2.06

10 votes

transisto (74) · 6 years ago

My suggestion was also to keep both but to make the downvote not able to reach below zero or below the amount to hide a comment, (I think -10m rshares)

$1.96

pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

Can't we discuss the sex of the angels in stead? Seems to make more sense to me.

$1.78

http://www.nicodimgallery.com/exhibitions/on-the-sex-of-angels

pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

During the siege of Constantinople in 1453, the Orthodox Byzantines were debating the sex of angels instead of defending the fortress. Thus the failure of the Byzantine world ironically stems from the disengagement of the Church from society and its immediate reality.

$1.66

liondani (69) · 6 years ago

Sorry... My bad English don't allowed me to understand!

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whatsup (75) · 6 years ago

Yeah, because things are not confusing enough.

Just because you don't know who our users are....

They will not understand and they will use the wrong thing.

Can we please make things easy for once?

munter (8) · 6 years ago

Bin both and get rid of the clowns who have trashed this platform!

Oh bugger...too late...

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whitesj40 (44) · 6 years ago (edited)

I like keeping both. While I would agree that using the downvote is the most logical. Flagging represents a greater escalation in my own mind. One may be used for content the other for behavior.

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seadbeady (60) · 6 years ago

I think keeping both is a great idea - but would suggest the downvote button not to be next to the upvote so that people can't mistakenly choose the wrong button :)

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liondani (69) · 6 years ago

Reddit style... they don't seem to have problems

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themonetaryfew (58) · 6 years ago

Doesn't matter much, but downvotes should have their own punishment pool (reward pool). So downvoting doesn't take from your upvote %

$2.02

arcange (73) · 6 years ago

Yes, although I think there are other more important features to implement on the steemit.com website than changing an icon or some terminology.

BTW, do you know about dpoll? Why not use it?

$1.98

pagandance (55) · 6 years ago (edited)

The most important thing that has to be taken care of, is to make Steemit a more friendly place to come to and to understand, because now those in power as well as the user interface are extremely user hostile. You have to be a diehard poster/commenter now, to even stand it a few weeks here as things are now.

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

No truer words have been spoken, you have to had already earned your blogging battle scars to stay entrenched on this site. My only concerns are will down votes cancel out a up vote?...if they do then what do you do if someone decides they don't like you and stalks your comments/post just to down vote them for no other reason. Can/will down votes be able to be weighted according to SP...meaning someone with more power can just wipe out your total up votes?...if so nothing really changes, people can still be retaliatory out of spite instead of out of concern for the content produced and they will still be able to run over to your blog and retaliate some more. Though some probably think people don't think about that but they do. I did exactly that last week when I wrote a post and I didn't know how it'd be taken so I waited two more days for another post to clear that had earned a few pennies before posting the current post.

This place could literally be a blast if people didn't fear, say, getting in on a Bernie knock out drag out, it's be great, fun, fun, fun....but the fear factor exist of being squashed so people don't do it. Whatever is decided the fear of striking at profit (up votes, post rewards) has to be eliminated, the only time people should be losing rewards here would be out of abuse of the platform/reward pool.

Just to give people a good idea of the kind of fear that exist on this site the person behind the drama token offered twenty steam for the best article that could start some drama....and literally got crickets for a response, I think one person wrote something and even that was questionable if it was even dramatic.

The fear factor, the totalitarianism has to cease to exist and open debate left to flourish, once you establish that the site will flourish.

So Yes I am in if the only thing left hurting is one's feelings you don't agree with them.

drutter (69) · 6 years ago

"The most important thing that has to be taken care of, is to make Steemit a more friendly place to come to and to understand"
Whoa, hahaha, yeah right! Wouldn't that be nice?

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

Many questioned the use of dpoll in the community election, and stated it should have been just done through comments. I think it’s one of those “you can’t please everyone” situations.

Possibly they aren’t looking for “consensus” but rather feedback?

emrebeyler (74) · 6 years ago

feedback is also alright :-) Here is a good example from @stateofthedapps.

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transisto (74) · 6 years ago

Because an interface could simply parse the comments and display the result based on SP owned

emrebeyler (74) · 6 years ago (edited)

Hey, thanks for mentioning dPoll.

dPoll is a solution to get that kind of feedbacks, but not the perfect solution. In order to create a poll at dPoll right now, you need to use the Steemconnect. (which requires Active key sent to Steemconnect at first login.)

I can understand having sensitive accounts (like @steemitblog) makes the dPoll a no-go at the moment.

Steemconnect related concerns raised multiple times before. We're trying to address the situation by making SC as an optional authentication method. Voting via Keychain/3rd party transactions was the first step and already deployed a couple of weeks ago.

andrarchy (72) · 6 years ago

This exactly right. Dpoll and SteemConnect are both awesome, but we have to be extra careful. Thanks for understanding!

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arcange (73) · 6 years ago

I can understand having sensitive accounts (like @steemitblog) makes the dPoll a no-go at the moment.

This is something I fully understand too. Looking forward to see dPoll being fully Keychain compatible.

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eastmael (67) · 6 years ago

If only a yes or no is accepted, I'll vote Yes.

But here's another idea, why not have both then use analytics and see which one users will most likely use?

I just think that there has to be a difference in functionality or use for each one. Like flags should be anonimous? I'm not sure. And flags should be reported or sent to a third party and then this 3rd party (@steemcleaners perhaps) will be the one who will take action on the report or flag.

I'm just concerned of the flag wars I heard that happened before.

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dwinblood (73) · 6 years ago

I'm just concerned of the flag wars I heard that happened before.

Many times. Very negative user experience. Especially since not all participants are equal in such a war.

thedegensloth (59) · 6 years ago (edited)

Yes

As much as we have listened to people complain about being flagged it's about time.

That or emotions like Facebook would be wise as well. Though, id make it so users can set what %'s the emotions have. Say an angry face is worth -50% upvote or smoke coming out ears is 100%.

Regardless users are going to complain, the better option is to keep flags but for steemits benefit to log abusers. So, id say keep flags and add downvotes.

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jondoe (85) · 6 years ago

Yes.

To go a bit further, flags and downvotes should be two separate things. Flags should be for abuses/violations of steemit.com rules whereas downvotes should be for disagreement of rewards.

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apsu (65) · 6 years ago

So are you saying that Steemit.com should have moderators and control the content posted on the site?

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jondoe (85) · 6 years ago (edited)

Well yes, Steemit.com is a private website. Just like they took the blog down of that hacker group a few months back. Content stays on the blockchain but steemit.com is a for profit website and the sooner it is run like one the sooner we all benefit.

Communities should have moderators yes and there should be a way to reward community members for their contributions to that community. What we have now is a giant mess of nothing. There is no value here for other people to consume. Zero.

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago (edited)

Communities and their moderators will solve this issue though, Steemit Inc should not be set to moderate the interface too much unless it has to do with drastic things as you mentioned.

Communities can censor what they like to improve their users experience. Having multiple communities with multiple moderators all with different styles of moderation will help balance it all. Communities will be a game changer for sure 🙂

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jondoe (85) · 6 years ago

Agreed. But, where are they?

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

Hivemind ✅ - done
MIRA - Almost done
Then communities.

Hivemind allows more changes to the font end to be done without a fork.. MIRA will lower the costs of running a full node which will be needed to run dApps. Communities are next on their roadmap I’ve seen.. nothing happens as quick as we want here and development was stalled for a bit there, but it seems to be back on track. Hopefully it continues 🙂

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jondoe (85) · 6 years ago

Well that is good to know, actually. Have you spoken to Ned recently?

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

I’m not in contact with Ned often, but spoke to him a week or so ago about the foundation and all is well. Eli and Andrarchy are my main contacts for that now, and speak to them often. The Steemit devs can be seen on the Steemit blog posts answering questions as well. I think they are actively trying to communicate more openly and I hope it continues.

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Show 2 more replies

trincowski (68) · 6 years ago

It already does.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

lol, you can say that again, they just are known by other titles.

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trincowski (68) · 6 years ago

Eheheeheh! 🙃 😂

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apsu (65) · 6 years ago (edited)

It doesn't.

Edit: Well yes it seems to have.

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trincowski (68) · 6 years ago

Well, then I guess this happened by accident:

apsu (65) · 6 years ago

Interesting, it seems something has changed while I haven't been using Steemit anymore.

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

No, it hasn’t.. Steemit.com is owned by a private company and has to follow rules sometimes. The darkoverloard was doing things that would have put them in legal trouble and they made the decision to remove it from their interface. Others don’t have to as they are not in the same legal jurisdiction and of course nothing is removed from the chain.

They have also removed spam accounts from the interface that can still be viewed elsewhere.

People just like to use this one example to somehow back up their censorship claims.. when all they mean are downvotes, as they have not been removed from the interface, clearly. 🙂

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apsu (65) · 6 years ago

Well it has changed, as for the time I used Steemit nothing like this had happened and as far as I know, nobody even assumed something like this would have happened.

Steem the blockchain is censorship resistant, but this still changes things.

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smooth (70) · 6 years ago (edited)

Yes.

so we would love to read any suggestions you might have for changes to that text in the comments section below

Remove the dialog altogether for downvotes as they relate to users expressing an opinion about the reward pool. Alternately, replace with a brief explanation about how the reward pool works (upvotes minus downvotes as a measurement of stakeholder consensus) which should appear once for each user.

For 'flags' as a Communities feature, community managers should be able to customize the text.

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dramatoken (62) · 6 years ago

Great suggestion. The text is incorrect as is....

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a0i (62) · 6 years ago (edited)

Yes, encouraging downvotes would be a great way to regulate the "trending" sections. And it could make bidbots unprofitable for low-quality posts.

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svemirac (71) · 6 years ago

I doubt it... everyone can use flag for the same thing today.

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jaki01 (74) · 6 years ago (edited)

Indeed.
However, there are two problems, which won't be solved by changing the name from "flag" to "downvote":

The fear of retaliation (so only a few people dare to flag at all - these ones often actually really like doing it). I see no reason why this would change?
The abuse of the flag option when users with much SP follow every post and comment of their unlucky "victims" to flag them whatever they write.

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trafalgar (87) · 6 years ago (edited)

Yes

While I believe the reluctance to use downvotes is mostly due to economic rather than a UI reasons, I'd support any move to promote their use, however minor, like this one.

Overall, we're currently in a state where voting rewards are being used as staking returns through either bid botting or self voting. This is completely undermining the content discovery ability of this platform and is predominantly due to misaligned economic incentives.

While UI changes are welcome, I believe they'll make very little difference on their own. Having a certain amount of free downvotes (like 25% of upvotes) and bringing up curation rewards will likely remedy a lot of the economic problems and allow people to use their votes to actually reward content they find appealing. A tiny amount of superlinear can also help force all potentially profitable voting behavior into the light and prevent profitable micro spamming.

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freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

Long live the n2!

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trafalgar (87) · 6 years ago

n^2 is far too extreme and opens the system to abuse in other ways

but I believe a slight amount of superlinear would be better than linear

every measure has trade offs, the idea is to use a combination of very modest measures that compliment each other that represent the least set of trade offs required to obtain a working economy

freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

I sure liked the n2 when the whale experiment kicked in, before that it sucked.

I still think a 500mv community enforced soft cap on the n2 brings in the masses.
30 or 40 people making worthwhile money won't cut it.
We got to spread the coin farther.

Abusing us with the ninjamine is real classy, imo.

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trafalgar (87) · 6 years ago

i agree the post experiment econ was the best, although it wasn't ideal either, as this level of superlinear heavily rewarded collusive vote stacking on certain posts

it was also expensive for abit and smooth running the experiment

i believe with something like n^1.2 or 1.3 up until a certain point, and then linear from there, we could enjoy pretty much all the advantages of n^2 with very little of the disadvantages

in addition, i think a non trivial amount of free downvotes is a must (although 100% is far too much, i think 25% of upvotes is more than sufficient)

increasing curation will further close the gap between voting for legitimately good posts from others and just directly shoving the vote rewards back into your own pocket (which would be much harder with slight superlinear and some free downvotes)

freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago (edited)

@steemflagrewards has a bot that automates downvotes, if that was modified to include everybody with 1mv or more to enforce the softcap then it wouldn't have to fall totally on the whales.
Bringing back the 4 post soft cap on rewards would cut abuse some.
So would doubling votes to 20.

What do you think of giving curation to downvotes?
Just mirror upvotes.

All good ideas, know any coders?

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trafalgar (87) · 6 years ago

the experiment partially worked only because the economy was at its infancy and people weren't bothered/sophisticated in trying to get around it

these days, with delegation and whatnot, it's trivially easy to split your stake under multiple accounts and circumvent the measures you suggested

i haven't seen a better set of ideas than higher curation, moderate free downvotes and slight superlinear. I can't think of any obvious ways it can be abused. It does mean we have to accept some of the negatives that come with it like less author rewards (which is a big deal assuming now the econ works and authors aren't just the stakeholders but good content creators), higher toxicity through more downvotes, and somewhat inequality through superlinear.

the idea is to minimize their negative effects while still having enough of these measures to get a working economy.

freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

I was wondering about ganging up sock puppets of whales.
Would that end run a 500mv soft cap?

Do 10 500mv accounts pull enough rewards to make the math unattractive to the minnows?
Is there enough stake with the will to block that?

No doubt that a 4 post soft cap on rewards and a 1% vote rather than 2% would alter abuse dramatically.
Combine the superlinear up to 500mv and we are where we were 2 plus years ago.

How does a large investor feel about splitting stake due to the cap?
How many people buy 250,000 steem at a whack?

I know that is a lot of questions, i hope you can answer them so that i can quit asking folks.

I do know that the top 10 voters take ~27% of the pool each day.
The bidbots take another 30.
Not much left over for anybody outside the top 500 accounts.
Is it any wonder we are having a hard time interesting folks in investing their time just to be excluded from tasting the pie?
https://steemit.com/steemit/@statsmonkey/biggest-upvoters-3132018---part-ii

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yabapmatt (69) · 6 years ago

Yes 100%. Downvote means the opposite of upvote. Flag means the content is not appropriate for the current community / user interface.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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18 votes

thelogicaldude (63) · 6 years ago

Totally agree with @yabapmatt. Flag should be to report someone for abuse or something like that and should effect reputation. Downvote just means you don't like the post and shouldn't damage reputation.

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treepi (64) · 6 years ago

Should it damage post rewards though? If so that's terrible for people who post unpopular opinions but aren't breaking any rules.

Posted using Partiko Android

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yabapmatt (69) · 6 years ago

This is exactly how the Steem reward system is meant to work. Rewards are crowdsourced, meaning it's up to the stakeholders to determine what rewards each post should earn. No posts are entitled to any rewards, there's is no objective measure of quality that determines a post's rewards. If you post something unpopular, then the crowd will likely decide that it should not be rewarded.

No one can take away your ability to post it, but the rewards are up to Steem stakeholders to allocate in any way they see fit based on their stake.

treepi (64) · 6 years ago

From what I understand of it, the current flag system is to remove rewards from things like spam and plagiarized content, not content you find displeasing. For example, say you have someone posting quality right wing political content and they are voted to nothing because people with opposing opinions want to protest it. From my understanding of Steems rules, this isn't how it's supposed to work. Am I wrong or misunderstanding something?

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yabapmatt (69) · 6 years ago

From my understanding of Steems rules, this isn't how it's supposed to work.

Steem, the blockchain, has no "rules" around when or why to upvote or downvote content. It is very simply a stake-weighted crowdsourcing system for rewarding content.

The reason you and many other people are confused or have misunderstandings about that is likely from the fact that steemit.com uses the term flag instead of downvote and has added their own list of "acceptable" reasons for doing so.

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treepi (64) · 6 years ago

Ah, I see. That would make sense.

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treepi (64) · 6 years ago

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treepi (64) · 6 years ago

Disagreement on rewards is the only thing you could argue in your positions favor. However, I interpret that to mean low-quality/low-effort content with big payouts, not disagreements.

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thelogicaldude (63) · 6 years ago

yeah, that is a good point, that and I didn't think about what would happen if curation trails down voted. I don't know, I guess that is why they are polling, for ideas... I do feel another option needs to be available though, thinking of adoption and those coming from mainstream social media will know upvote, downvote, and flag, because that is basically standard across social platforms. But I guess someone would need to get all that figured out how the economy around it would work.

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snackaholic (57) · 6 years ago

yes
totally agree to this opinion!

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davewuk (55) · 6 years ago

Couldn't agree more

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crimsonclad (66) · 6 years ago

Yes.

This is something has been talked about for a long time, and I'm glad to see it come under consideration. It's not going to magically fix the culture around flagging/downvoting, but most types of users have been socially conditioned toward feeling an aggressive response to the action of a flag. Normalizing voting down at the same level as up is a good start to helping creating a less emotionally charged ecosystem surrounding curation. The UI imagery and terminology flagging currently represents is something much better suited to each front end creating ways to express and regulate their own ToS.

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

Yes.

As well as better information of what downvotes are and how they should be used. As Crim said, normalizing downvotes and changing the culture is key.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

If your are going to change the culture then down votes can't be punitive. It's as plain and simple as that. Nothing changes without freedom of speech, the ship will continue to sink if down votes can be used like flagging.

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

Freedom of speech is alive and well.. you seem to not have a full understanding of how blockchains work or why downvotes are needed in a reward society.

Sure they are abused, which is unfortunate .. but they are needed.

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

Downvotes are needed to make sure the ship sinks.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

The way it's set up now does't work out well so that argument fails you. Come back when you have an excuse that will actually work.

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

Works great actually, no excuse needed.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago (edited)

You are the one over there at corporate, you are the one going down with the ship, you don't see me baling water. Narcissism seems to run deep in the current over there, it's been the fact you'd rather paint the color of the ship then put any positive regard into what people are saying as to why this site is losing momentum.

justineh (71) · 6 years ago

That’s just comical. Try again 😂

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

Well of course it is, narcissist generally don't view themselves as such.

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Show 4 more replies

birchmark (59) · 6 years ago (edited)

What reasons do you believe they are needed for?

I agree they are needed but only for downvoting stolen content, abusive behaviour to others on the platform and misinformation that could be harmful if people were to believe it.

I downvoted someone who stole my content on here, but I think that's it. I may have done the other two but I don't remember by now.

I don't believe in flagging people due to disagreement etc, but the reasons given above are reasons to downvote / flag. I'm not sure if we will agree on the reasons you feel it is needed or not, since I don't yet know what those reasons are.

Ganging up on someone and downvoting their every post and not giving them a chance to redeem themselves in your eyes for whatever pissed you off though is a shitty thing that people do on here though and I 100% disagree with that. Each post should be an individual post and someone's time on here shouldn't be completely ruined because of a mistake they made. That's shit.

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cityofstars (65) · 6 years ago

No
it's not a new thing that makes steem stronger it's just changing the name from flag to down vote BUT if you guys are going to do that please don't put the downvote button beside upvote button because a lot of people will click the wrong button like if someone wanna upvote he/she will click downvote by wrong and vice versa :)
peace.

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transisto (74) · 6 years ago

They need to be placed on the same level and no warning, You can remove and change your vote many times.

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cityofstars (65) · 6 years ago (edited)

it can be that you able to change it in a few minutes until it registered in the blockchain
but I don't think we need it

oldtimer (75) · 6 years ago

Very good suggestion.

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svemirac (71) · 6 years ago

even if you click flag now, you get the wawning that you are about to FLAG the post/comment and you need to confirm it...
so accidental downvotes wouldn't happen - unless your steemfriend just hates you for getting bigger rewards than he/she is.

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viraldrome (67) · 6 years ago

I think flagging and downvoting being separate is a great idea. Like downvoting a youtube video just because it sucks is different than hitting the "report video" because the video has like animal abuse or something.

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khufu (55) · 6 years ago

How about you fix that stupid fucking ad that drops down at the top of the page and obscures obscures everyone's profile and hides the follow button.

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ssjsasha (67) · 6 years ago

If i had an Apple Pencil I would screenshot and draw what I recommend but pretty much a red downvote button to the right of the pending payout amount.

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bitrocker2020 (77) · 6 years ago (edited)

YES !

Having UPvote and DOWNvote is way more recognizable in comparison with the UPVOTE + FLAG ! as illustrated below

VS

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eturnerx (64) · 6 years ago

Yes
The term flag is closer in meaning to "report" while the effect of the action is more like a downvote. Change the words and icons.

Posted using Partiko Android

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master-set (64) · 6 years ago

There must be NO flags or downvotes. If you want to live in peace you need no spears. If you give people spears - they will poke each other "in a name of greater good". And than a flag war begins.
For what?
If you don't like something - just ignore it. If no one can hurt you, you need no means to hurt others yourself.

Flags must be abandoned. You can do so much more if there is no violence in system is possible by design.

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nikolanikola (67) · 6 years ago (edited)

I think that you have more important things to do on Steem, instead of dealing with such trivia at this moment.

P.S. Both, flags and downvotes are needed

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13 votes

edicted (72) · 6 years ago

Both? Really? Ironically, you make this issue seem less trivial with this comment.

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

The censorship that flagging allows is destroying this platform, I'd call that pretty crucial not trivial.

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

....I don't know exactly where your going with that as in what defines censorship differently here there other blog sites....the censorship here isn't that your post won't show up or the inconvenience that people will have to click on "show items" to see a post, censorship here is a fear element not a physical one but a mental one.

zanoni (67) · 6 years ago

Hello,
You can call it how you want:
FLAG or DOWNVOTE
It's absolutely UNSOCIAL‼️
WHY?
because of the system of steem.
A user with high voting power can flag or downvote a smaller users account to zero.
Many people left Steemit because of that already or stopped posting.
So don't think about how to call it, think about to remove it.
Have a good day
Tom

Posted using Partiko Android

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

And now all the witness degenerates keep their mouth shut.

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hasenmann (65) · 6 years ago

HAd the same thoughts.
What about those "flamig-pools" like camillesteemer and his retarded friends?
They flag down like crazy. So I think if they were more powerful they would have the potential to ruin a lot here on steemit.

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isarmoewe (64) · 6 years ago

Neither does camillesteemer have any power to be regarded relevant nor is that bot flagging that aggressive as you try to say.
Each of us is looking away from accounts like mepatriot. Why are we doing so?
I feel any flag bringing to our minds that some people's ideas of free speech really is a threat to society is more than deserved.

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

Only way to remove downvotes successfully is to remove the value of upvotes. How many pushing for removal of “downvotes” would approve of that? You cannot have one without the other in a reward society like this.

There needs to be a cultural change and would hopefully lead to less abuse... or more people standing up to counter “abuse”.

Also, one downvote shouldn’t turn someone into a victim who now rages about being censored and abused.. change the culture, fix the issue in my opinion.

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dwinblood (73) · 6 years ago

I was an advocate for no downvote for a long time. The problem is that opens the door to gaming the system worse than it already is. Those with high power can purely up vote and collude to only put increasing amounts of the reward pool to themselves and their friends. They can up vote stuff with very little effort put into it but pay it out huge sums. Without a down vote there is no way to counter this.

The problem is that this is truly decentralized. There is no police force that can stop abuse. Even hidden posts are still visible on the blockchain if you use a different concentrator (website/app).

So while I don't like what the FLAG (currently) does. I have not thought of a way to get rid of it that won't open the door to more extreme abuses. This is the only reason I don't advocate it's removal.

I do think those that abuse it and use it to censor and oppress should be discouraged somehow and there are some groups that try to do that.

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

There must come a cap on max voting power - I would prefer max 1000 SP voting power. That way the whales automatically dissapear.

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dwinblood (73) · 6 years ago

That would work... though it would remove some incentive to invest and accumulate more steem power. Though it may be worth the trade off.

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alexs1320 (71) · 6 years ago

Should a doorknob on a burning building be wiped with Windex or Mr.Proper?

*Hint: who cares

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

best answer to this insulting post by @steemitblog

alexs1320 (71) · 6 years ago

Thanks man. Check my new answer on this page, with the link to something great that was just made

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mattockfs (60) · 6 years ago

Damn, I really want a resteem option for comments as next inconcequential UI enhancement right now. Brilliant 🤣

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themarkymark (78) · 6 years ago

Yes

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birdinc (62) · 6 years ago

[YES]

whatsup (75) · 6 years ago

Yes

timcliff (73) · 6 years ago

Yes. I support the change from 'flag' to 'downvote'.

soyrosa (74) · 6 years ago

Yes.

Since downvote is the exact opposite of upvote it would make sense to use these consistently. Flagging is a different action than upvoting, it seems now, while in fact a downvote and an upvote are the same, just expressing a different feeling.

Implementing this would only make sense if it's also implemented visually: by showing that it's 'the opposite of the same action' by placing upvote/downvote next to each other - instead if in two different locations, which suggests it's a totally different action.

guiltyparties (70) · 6 years ago

Yes. Downvotes are meant to be used to regulate rewards. Having them as a separate flag gives the impression that they are to be used only in extreme situations where abuse exists. Flags were never meant to be seen as bad, they were supposed to be a natural part of reward distribution in the ecosystem.

onnovocks (49) · 6 years ago

Too late; I'm powering down. As a paying customer I will not put up with the infinite power of a sociopath with a large wallet to wipe out everything that I worked for days to create. Yep, it takes 2 days to make a halfway decent music video and a split second to wipe it. Do what you want, and thanks for a very unpleasant experience on Steemit. Although I didn't come here as an investor, I came looking for an alternative platform and was willing to pay to use it, I am leaving as one. You'll not get another drop of sweat from me, ..ever.

Good bye and good luck.

d0zer (59) · 6 years ago

Yes and no.

The downvote/flag process should be reviewed. Right now, if you have a lot of SP you can downvote anyone you want even if they don't deserve it. This happens a lot. So much abuse. This needs to be fixed ASAP.

We don't care about the names.

isarmoewe (64) · 6 years ago

You can do the same in opposite direction if your VP is sufficient.
There's no censorship on Steemit? Only in theory!

epicdave (60) · 6 years ago

Yup, I agree with @d0zer on this one.

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transisto (74) · 6 years ago

So much abuse?
BTW you deserved that one.

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d0zer (59) · 6 years ago

What do you mean with "BTW you deserved that one." ?

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transisto (74) · 6 years ago

Flag didn't register. fixed

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d0zer (59) · 6 years ago

Why was that necessary?

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bluengel (76) · 6 years ago

ETC

Both Needed !

Do Something Goooooood for Steem ♨ !

Posted using Partiko Android

tobias-g (69) · 6 years ago

Yes, making them a dislike/downvote will make them feel more natural and less of a big deal as a flag may suggest from our use with other platforms.

Posted using Partiko iOS

wakeupnd (68) · 6 years ago (edited)

So you're basically just putting lipstick on the pig?

You're just changing the name and not the actual functionality of a flag/downvote it sounds like to me. So all the negativity is still going to be there because most people don't flag to counter an "abuse" of the reward pool. 99% of flags are used to punish so called bad behavior like spam or plagiarism.

Also flagging is used as a form of censorship by punishing posts that some may deem inappropriate or offensive by taking away some or all of the monetary gains from that post in an effort to discourge that person from posting more "offensive" things in the future.

I get that countering the abuse of the reward pool is an important issue but I see abuse of the pool going like crazy now with the use of upvote bots. So is it really doing what it was designed to do? I don't think so.

I would personally like to see fagging removed completely from the code or at least the monetary impact and if things get out of hang with reward pool abuse than add it back in but I think the community would be a much happier place without flagging and all the drama it causes.

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

If 99% of flags were being used to punish so called bad behavior then why is it that you see so much bad behavior still existing among those with the most power?

I am totally with you as to if this is just putting lip stick on a pig, if a downvote can cancel out a upvote all they are going to be doing in the long run is enabling a lot more people to be punitive toward each other if they want based on opinion not abuse.

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wakeupnd (68) · 6 years ago

I agree whales can get away with more and that's one of the reasons I think flagging hurts the platform more than helps it.

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

...sometimes it doesn't even have to be whales it can just be someone with a bit more power. Being a blogger for years I was quite shocked when I first came on here thinking this was a open debatable platform of opinions only to be told to f off and if I came back I wouldn't like what was going to happen to me. Once, with a woman who is a reporter who has a blog on here no less, after giving my opinion she just replied I was a joke and flagged me. lol.

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fingolfin (61) · 6 years ago

If the monetary impact was removed from flags, what would your suggestion be to deal with a plagiarized post that has a sizeable payout?

wakeupnd (68) · 6 years ago (edited)

I've seen people make a lot of money plagiarizing articles and once they get outted the upvoting stops and they abandon the account. This all happens with no flags being given out.

fingolfin (61) · 6 years ago

If you see an article that is plagiarized, report it to steemcleaners. Not only will they flag it (if need be) you'll get some tiny reward as well for reporting it.

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

Honestly I think flagging should be an option used for abuse that people can tag that will bring the attention of Steem Cleaners down upon the post. They can view it and determine the action that needs to be taken/addressed. I think it will stop the abuse of flagging people just because they don't like what's said versus the post being abusive, and encourage those with lower sp to flag abuse, right now low sp holders flagging a post really doesn't do anything and most won't take the time to contact steem cleaners to report the abuse.

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fingolfin (61) · 6 years ago

But steemcleaners are just regular users too, if you remove the monetary impact of the flag then they wouldn't have the ability to remove any rewards.

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

I was trying to say they probably would be the best way to deal with what post get flagged and/or determining who they should bring in to deal with bot abuse like what markymark does.

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thoughts-in-time (64) · 6 years ago

Well said!

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reggaemuffin (66) · 6 years ago

Yes

elsiekjay (76) · 6 years ago

How About Upvotes & Downvotes,then Replace Flags with Report? Report for inappropriate content that can be manually moderated by your team & taken down if need be? Either way, if Downvotes will still affect Reputation then there's no use, just same old shit just a different name. Flagging accounts to oblivion is in a way censorship cause it hides away the affected Account's content, Which is not fair, Which would make Steemite no better than mainstream media in that regard. Maybe downvotes should ONLY affect the rewards and not the Reputation.

pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

Report: that really makes good sense. Downvoting is stealing. The poster has made an effort to create a post and when someone like a big whale dislikes hit, he can rob all the rewards, even if the poster has had hundreds of small rewards from small fish. There should come a voting power cap, like 1000 SP max. then there would no longer be whales and no need for greed.

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truthforce (66) · 6 years ago

Flags should be used for abuse/plagiarism/disagreement on rewards, when a flag is used it takes away monetary value from a post or comment.

Downvotes should be used on "disliking a post" to show that you don't agree with it/don't like it/whatever, but it doesn't take away any value from the post itself.

Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I want to take value away from their content.

steemmillionaire (65) · 6 years ago

I would have a different proposal: have a single sliding bar for voting, with 0 on the middle, -100 on the left and +100 on the right. How would you like this?

Posted using Partiko Android

battleaxe (69) · 6 years ago

didn't read
why do you give a shit now
anyways, shalom

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

Because the ship is sinking.

petecko (56) · 6 years ago

The flag distinguishes Steemit from other social networks. On other social networks, "dislikes" by merely expressing displeasure. But the "Flag" of the Steemit is much more. "Flag" is an educational element for the new Steemians.

Posted using Partiko iOS

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

"Flag" is an educational element for the new Steemians.

Yeah, as in it's my way or the highway. You must like reading repetitive comments of agreement all day.

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freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

Negative curation should work as a mirror image of upvoting.
Each valued equally in the math.
Downvoting should be eligible for curation rewards, too.

How that is plotted in the math needs some discussion, but all this hate directed at negativity really needs to stop.
Dissent is essential to finding the truth.
Why should fake positive curation get rewarded when real negative curation gets stiffed?

Just the change proposed by the post is pointless.
Those that complain will just use whichever term is suitable.

beanz (68) · 6 years ago

Yes.

It took more than two years but it's about time users could redistribute rewards from an overvalued post without miscommunicating an attack on the author.

drutter (69) · 6 years ago

No.

Oversimplifying the flag system into "downvotes" is unnecessary and will produce unwanted effects.

Flagging a post or comment is done for specific reasons, and should be a very rare occurrence. People upvote sometimes just to show agreement. Changing the flag system to "downvotes" would encourage those people (a majority of the users) to use them to show disagreement.

Currently, we tend to show disagreement by commenting and laying out our thoughts. With the proposed change, many people will skip commenting on things they disagree with (after all, that will just get you downvoted), in favour of just leaving a downvote.

Flagging is for inappropriate content, direct attacks, and not too much else. We shouldn't encourage overuse of that by calling them "downvotes" and changing the warning popup.

girlsofgreen (57) · 6 years ago

We couldn't agree more, @Drutter. Thank you for saying something. Our hearts sunk when we found out. Remember when youtube went from a 5-star rating system and then just the more abused, dichotomous thumbs up or down? Anyway, the proof will be in the pudding that it's different: how many downvotes are going to be thrown around now compared to how often posts were flagged in the past? We rarely and appropriately used the flag system, and it worked, was a good system. Is Steemit becoming an Animal Farm?!

fredrikaa (70) · 6 years ago

I think I should be able to read a well-written original article which content I really liked, but where if I find it over-valued by the current number of upvotes I should be able to downvote it for no other reasons than to tune down the end rewards to a level I agree with. Then leave a positive reply to engage with the content.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

One man's junk is another mans treasure, it shouldn't be up to you or anyone else to determine the value outside of not up voting. With all the bots running around on here and the ass kissers it wouldn't take long for a down vote that subtracts value to be used in the same way as a flag, it will even increase the amount of people who will be able to use it that way. For the platform to grow the punitive edge has to go.

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fredrikaa (70) · 6 years ago

Introducing downvotes next to upvotes should be accompanied by introducing a separate free downvote pool so that everyone can downvote without using their upvote mana.

Thus we could easily downvote obvious vote trading and also content promoted with bid bots that is not good.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

They are never going to implement something that will harm bid bot use; those bots are mainly run by and making a bundle for those who hold the power.

drutter (69) · 6 years ago

It seems like you're kidding, your position is that ridiculous to me. But since you appear to be serious, I don't know what to do except shake my head.

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prydefoltz (65) · 6 years ago

I would give a big fat 'NO'.

To my mind a flag should only be applied when someone is posting outright illegal subject matter. It should not be about one's opinion of what constitutes a valuable post. There are individuals on here that I would never upvote because I do not personally enjoy what they produce. There are even times I find what they do to be offensive. But I also know that my opinion is not flawless and I should not rule the world or steem with it.

I was remarking to a friend from another social media site today, that steemit does not suffer from trolls the same way his said platform does. That is because the flag is effective, the way it is. Changing flags to downvotes would probably encourage people to use it. They would see it as an opportunity to express their opinions and that is is, in my opinion, what the comment section is for. The flag button should only be used in extreme situations. We should be encouraging people to support other bloggers and not downvote those we disagree with or even worse are jealous of because they have received a large payout.

Now that steemit is a monetized platform through ads. We want to encourage the folks on here to come back and come back often. You do not want them chased off by downvotes.

Generally speaking, a blogger receives upvotes because of two reasons. They have paid for promotional bots, which must maintain steem power to be of any use, or they have networked and produced in a sustained and positive manner. Either way, they are supporting the ecosystem that is steem and neither way should they be punished for it.

sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

Nice commentary.

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andreasgrubhofer (58) · 6 years ago

No, I guess, not sure haha.

Wouldnt it be better to keep flags and when you click on the flag icon, a drop down menu opens up (kinda like now with a small text/explanation and some options) and youve to choose one or more of these eg. four options - eg. just for better understandin, theres brackets next to these four options and youve to click on/tick at least one, here I "ticked" the first option (Disagreement on rewards/Downvote); the flagged Steemian then might have a closer look at this flag and will notice that he just got 'flagged, reason: Disagreement on rewards/Downvote':

Flagging a post can remove rewards and make this material less visible. Some common reasons to flag

Disagreement on rewards/Downvote (I mean, thats actually the same?) [ X ]
Fraud or Plagiarism [ ]
Hate Speech or Internet Trolling [ ]
Intentional miss-categorized content or Spam [ ]

my point is that it's very important havin these "report" options in case of plagiarism, hate speech, porn...
thats why I wouldnt want flags to be replaced by downvotes.

I hope I aint mixin nothin up... Im sry if I did tho.

birchmark (59) · 6 years ago (edited)

I thought porn was okay on here. I thought there was even a dporn app and tag. I haven't posted anything in it or anything, but I have seen porn on here.

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andreasgrubhofer (58) · 6 years ago

ah, I think youre right. wow, thats fucked up.

birchmark (59) · 6 years ago

I get why you might say that's fucked up. I'm not too bothered by it personally since I'd assume there's no or minimal kids on here, and the posts are generally hidden with a nsfw tag so people don't have to see them if they don't want to, but it is also just I guess a little odd as it kind of feels like it is similar to if a website like YouTube had all the Pornhub and Redtube (and whatever other ones there are) videos just mixed in with all the other videos. This is better than that would be because it has tags that posts stay within - I could just imagine porn on the trending page of YouTube (don't think that would go down too well) - but websites which have everything including stuff like porn can be odd sometimes.

I write fiction which sometimes includes stuff to do with sex etc (not erotica but just the same as a TV show, novels of a different genre or a movie might include sex in the plot etc) so I've used "sex" as a tag before and searching that tag to see what was there was how I've found the porn. It's not my thing, but it doesn't bother me personally either. It is odd when you come from / are used to other websites though that don't include stuff like that though.

Not the only place I've stumbled across it though. I made a GTA V video that included the King of the Castle challenge / mini-game thing and I used the hashtag #dirtyrascals on twitter. I clicked it and posts advertised a gay porn series called Dirty Rascals popped up. I find twitter seems to allow more stuff than Facebook at least but I don't know where their limits are. Twitter seems more likely to interfere with people because of user reports than because of the content I think. They do hide things with a warning it may contain offensive content, but they do a terrible job of it and overdo it so that it's impossible to know if what you un-hide is disturbing or offensive or not. It once hid someone posting the utorrent logo from me. That's nothing and didn't need to be hidden. I have shown / un-hidden and looked at things that were hidden that I would have preferred not to because of this.

As long as kids don't stumble across it, the porn doesn't bother me too much though. Power to the people who enjoy it, I guess. I can get why it might bother others though.

I'm having a little trouble taking this seriously though right now, as idk if you've seen The Orville or not but there was simulated porn (on a holodeck, so like VR but if it just was in that room as opposed to needing a headset or anything) in an episode of that, and all I can think of is that.

pagandance (55) · 6 years ago (edited)

I don't see what the difference is between a flag and a downvote, except for the name change. If the witnesses we all know don't like the content they didn't like before they will just keep on downvoting those posters into oblivion.

In my view Steemit does not need flags or downvotes, but it needs moderators and not some self proclamed bad cops/cowboy sherriffs that go rogue with their power abuse.

Flagging should be something very exceptional. And should be directed to moderators, preferably per category. That would also mean when you make post, this post has to be placed in a "category" like on internet fora, what should also facilitate navigating and searching stuff on Steemit. The #tag system obviously doens't work and only turns Steemit into a junkyard of randomness where it's almost impossible to find anything meaningful.

What Steemit users want to see though is:

how much people have viewed your post
how many people liked your post
how many people did not like your post

and the "meritocracy" nonsense whereby super heavy weights can now at will upvote or downvote should be replaced by flat reward system.

With moderators per category, there would also no longer be an excuse for allowing these super aggressive and ennoying harrasment bots like cheetah, badcontent etc. that are operated by rogue witnesses.

apsu (65) · 6 years ago

If you want to remove the effect of SP on rewards and you want moderators on the site, I'm not sure if you even are on the right site.

Have you tried out social medias like Facebook? There you can see at least how many people likes your post, no special rewards for rich users and they have moderators too.

I could recommend that.

pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

I am here because I can see the immensily huge potential this platform has. 1 STEEM could easily be worth 100 times more than it is now if the people running the show here would only just try for 1%. But obviously all they do results in chasing people away from this platform and driving the price of STEEM from 150000 Satoshi when it launched, to a meager 6500 Satoshi as I am writing this now. Of course some people LOVE the way Steemit is doing now. Who? Usually they say "Follow the Money" if you want to know those you're not allowed to criticize.

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apsu (65) · 6 years ago

Well I see part of the potential being a working reward system, which however seems to be too complicated for many people as they're longing after a flat reward system. It would probably be a flat zero then.

Also I do not really see how moderators would help the platform. At that point we'd really see the "you're not allowed to criticize"-phenomenon you seem to be worried about. Of course now high SP users can flag posts/users to below zero rewards etc. but moderators would have stronger power than that and I see no point in it.

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birchmark (59) · 6 years ago

There shouldn't be special rewards for rich users though.

Steem Power is a great thing if it couldn't be bought as it meant people who made more content that was liked by the community and / or put more time into curation are the ones with the most power to judge other content etc so it shows a proof of time spent and proof of quality. Proving that you have money helps Steemit financially but it doesn't show that you are someone who should have power on this website.

Facebook is a shit social media site, with a worse community than this and it doesn't allow earning money and you're being pretty condescending to pagandance to suggest that they should go there just because they don't like the website having this particular aspect. Steemit is much closer socially to Reddit than Facebook anyway. The way people interact and are keen to have a discussion is much more common of Steemit and Reddit than Facebook. Facebook is only good for people you know in real life. Interactions with strangers on there are much shittier than on here or Reddit.

I don't know what the solution is to the fact that people can essentially buy their way to the top (which is shit) because at the same time that is part of the funding of the site, but it is one of the downsides of how Steemit works. I don't think making it a flat reward system is the solution either, but the difference due to SP could be less OP at least. All social media and all platforms that have monetisation aspects have pros and cons. YouTube for example has more faults than Steemit, but one of its pros over Steemit is the fact that everyone starts the same and you can't pay your way to a bigger audience and larger amounts of ad revenue. This is a disadvantage of the Steemit platform.

I'm certainly not leaving and I think Steem is one of the better platforms I'm on, but that doesn't change that being a downside of this particular platform. Just like I won't leave YouTube, but it has downsides. I don't see the rich getting richer and this aspect of Steem making it resemble the shitty, real world slightly more as a positive aspect of the platform and I never will, but it is still intrinsically tied into how it works, so it's a negative to accept along with the positives of the platform. I don't quite want what either of you two seem to want, but simply see pros and cons here and you both have some decent points. I also never get up platform's butts either so I won't pretend negatives are positives either (not saying you are, but I won't ever do that).

However Facebook is not close to being a comparable website to Steemit and I think you are being a bit rude and condescending to the other commenter. You should probably cut that out.

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

Indeed, you should earn respect and not be able to just buy it. I think a vote power cap of 1000 SP max would be beneficial for the platform. Now there is absolutely no balance.

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lauch3d (62) · 6 years ago

Right its rebranding bullshit. But no, it does not need moderators. Simply introduce unique user identification (as Block.one will do on its Steem 2.0) and then put a treshold on the flaggging mechanism. If x number of users downvoted (relative to a standard) --> than activate flag/reward-pool redistribution, otherwise --> ignore. If number of disagreement is low (e.g. one or two of 50 or 100 users disagreed, then its very likely that the downvote reflects an extreme ideologic opinion which is forced upon us via high steem power /see bernie sanders)).

but anyway doesn´t matter at all...others will do it better, free market.

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reazuliqbal (67) · 6 years ago

Yes

bashadow (65) · 6 years ago

No.

A down vote has a much much more "... negative moral or legal judgment about the content." than a flag. A flag is simply a means to indicate there may be issues with a post. A Down vote is a definite moral judgement made by an individual about a post worthiness.

apsu (65) · 6 years ago

I've heard more that flags seem more threatening than downvotes.
Downvotes are just pointing out that someone doesn't like the post of yours.
Flagging can be seen as some kind of marking the content as something harmful.

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ausbitbank (73) · 6 years ago

Yes

ericet (75) · 6 years ago

Yes

anthonyadavisii (70) · 6 years ago (edited)

Flags

The flag has become an icon within the antiabuse community.
SteemDownvoteRewards is not NEARLY as catchy as @steemflagrewards
There are more novelty flag accounts than downvote accounts. Much greater memetic potential in the former imho.
Consistency. People have built things based on flags such as the latest SFR mascot. We have a culture around flags.

Yall went with flag as a label for downvote and I would prefer we stick with it.

Unless there is a functional reason, making these sort of changes should be avoided as it breaks dependencies / relationships.

As I see it, this change is more cosmetic than anything. I vote for "Save the Flags!"

enforcer48 (68) · 6 years ago

You mean, we can't do the parody of Steemit Defence League, but Steem Downvote League? lol

I do agree that it's only a cosmetic change.

pjau (63) · 6 years ago

I'd like to rename it to "Apply Negative rshares". Much more user friendly. 😂 But sure downvote if you wanna be technical about it. I vote YES.

Btw, wtf is this BS I'm seeing, top banners while logged in?

13 votes

freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

How do you like our stincy overlords now?

Seems i recall getting fed a line about community input when i got here.
Now they ask for it?
Smdh.

pjau (63) · 6 years ago

To be honest I can't really complain, I do use Brave now so the ad block blocks it anyway. I only noticed it because I opened Chrome instead.

I do like the Steemit website (even with its flaws), but I swear I remember it was said it was only for logged out users, and I hadn't seen any announcements saying it had changed. But Steemit is my favourite frontend, so community input would be nice, even if it is to monetise the website, which I am actually FOR. But I would rather they did it so the users can pay with crypto to advertise on the website. It would make more sense to me and with an opt in/out feature.

r0nd0n (63) · 6 years ago

They implemented ads for logged-in users once they were able to split the wallet from the condensor interface.

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liondani (69) · 6 years ago

Try https://steempeak.com also! You will be surprised!

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freebornangel (73) · 6 years ago

Lol, you still think stinc gives a damn about us,...o.0
The cto that replaced dan said he didn't gaf about the first million users.

We are ruled by ego tripping petty tyrants.

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thedegensloth (59) · 6 years ago

Its called an ad there trying to make a profit. Hosting ain't cheap

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pjau (63) · 6 years ago

I'm well aware of what an AD is, but last time I heard they were only showing them to people not logged in.

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fuadsm (55) · 6 years ago

When was "last time"? It already shows to logged in users for quite a while now.

treeplanter (68) · 6 years ago

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pjau (63) · 6 years ago (edited)

Well last time I was using Chrome on my mobile, so like a month ago. It only showed while being logged out. I switched to Brave now so the ad block kicked in.

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fuadsm (55) · 6 years ago

Ads for logged in users is around 2 weeks ago or so
#sbi-skip

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hasenmann (65) · 6 years ago

Something like a 4-eye-system.
So that spmming downvotes will be detected and not approved.

https://steemworld.org/@camillesteemer
Take a look here, and ask yourself what will happen if this guy and his retared frieds would have more power.

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isarmoewe (64) · 6 years ago

I did. The retarded guys are somewhere else. Why are you not angry at them?

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breadcentric (59) · 6 years ago

I can't make up my mind. What's better: flag wars with people dragged into it without any clear reason, or perhaps downvote wars with people dragged into it without any clear reason?
I can't decide which name would make me feel better about hiding and hoping I don't get targeted by any of the sides.

Passive aggressive aside, i strongly feel much more could be done that would bring actual value: https://steemit.com/steem/@midlet/what-is-ux-and-why-it-s-the-1-problem-holding-steem-back

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

Kudos to you, my sentiment exactly. You get tired of tip toeing around the bullshit, let's get it on, let's remove the barriers of retaliation.
th (2).jpg

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

they should kick out most of the incompetent devs and witnesses and hire in someone like you

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breadcentric (59) · 6 years ago

There are so many things in this comment that I don't agree with it that I don't even know how to respond.

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elsiekjay (76) · 6 years ago

LMAO

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stevescoins (68) · 6 years ago

semantics either way.

people will respond just as emotionally to losing rep/$ by calling it "downvoting" at the exact same level they do when it's called "flagging"

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thoughts-in-time (64) · 6 years ago

No.

Let’s be real for a moment here, after Steemit rolled out the first condenser the dotcom folks quickly learned the reasons behind flagging cannot be policed, controlled, or regulated.

This is when STINC threw in the catch-all "disagreement on rewards" as if applying a bandaid to a bullet-wound ("problem solved"). I’d like the ability to disagree with the content of a post without affecting its reward potential.

Afterall who am I to tell someone their writing efforts isn‘t worth what someone else is willing to reward them via their hard-earned or rightfully purchased steem power?

So, why not just keep the flag tool as it is with all of its specious reasonings, but also include a downvote button just on the condenser side, or with json transactions that don‘t affect the reward potential.

My idea doesn't remove the ability to flag, nor does it encourage flagging. It would provide an outlet for people to disagree with a post ideologically without conveying the illusion or reality of fuckery.

Just imagine a world where not only could you withhold from your waitress her tip because of poor service, but you could also do an action that erases her days' tips. For good or ill, on this platform, we really don't have to imagine that hard.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

Because people work hard for those tips, opinions earned those tips and opposite opinions shouldn't erase them.

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jrcornel (84) · 6 years ago (edited)

To be honest I am not even sure why this is a poll. You guys should just fix it. Clearly it is a "yes". Having upvotes and downvotes would be much more congruent with how just about every other social site works, don't even ask, just fix it. A flag is something else entirely. Why is it that everything takes months on here? Literally...

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

Other sites down votes aren't punitive, they don't subtract anything other than someone's pride. If down votes are used to take away rewards of up votes it just opens up the platform for someone with more power and his followers to gang up on you and take away your rewards....and it still leaves open the window for them to stalk, harass and remove rewards on other comments/post you make

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jrcornel (84) · 6 years ago

That is pretty much how this site works, yes. It is stake weighted, so those with the most stake are king.

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago

Yes it's the way this site works but it's also what's killing it. Doesn't matter someone has more stake in the platform, outside of someone abusing the platform those with more stake shouldn't be allowed to flag/take away rewards of someones just because they oppose their opinion.

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jrcornel (84) · 6 years ago

How should it work then?

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sunlit7 (59) · 6 years ago (edited)

I am not technology minded so I don't know what can or can't be set up. To take away the punitive fear factor to get the best possible participation to occur as far as having the most eyes out there surveillance for abuse is key. Everyone running around with a wild, wild, west policing system where my gun is bigger than yours just isn't working for this platform. I think one of the best suggestions I seen on this thread came from someone who made a drop down bar where people clicked on the reason they were flagging the thread. A system like that would work out quite well and put everyone on level footing and take the fear factor out. Of course that would entail setting up a team of experts willing to deal with the flags and determine what the outcome should be. Who flagged the post and who sits on the panel of experts should stay anonymous to the general public, that way you don't have someone with more sp taking out revenge on someone for flagging with less sp or whales/witnesses/appointees setting on the panel splitting hairs with whales who (and I am just being honest here not judgmental, it's not my platform) also abuse the platform. You could have a resolution channel on Discord set up to discuss any concerns towards actions taken with those interacting from the panel only be addressed as resolution specialist #1, #2, #3, etc., for those who want to discuss the action in private. That seems like a fair and equitable way for the platform to flourish in regards to participation not in the sense of catching abuse but increasing the level of participation on the site and in the comments, who knows maybe we will would then actually see this site have articles that produce in time real conversations whether than operate like a email system where I send you a comment then you send me one back maybe hours, days later.

fratheone (55) · 6 years ago

Yes!!!

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ezzy (77) · 6 years ago

Choice seems obvious to me. Changing from "flag" to "downvote" is a huge improvement.

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direwolf (65) · 6 years ago

Yes.

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marcosdk (70) · 6 years ago

Yes, I prefer downvotes instead of flags.
Neither of the two systems prevents abuse. For this reason, the method that causes the least damage in a situation of abuse is necessary. If no option is perfect, it is necessary to choose the least bad.

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bitcoinflood (77) · 6 years ago

Downvote makes more sense since you are upvoting on posts.

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

Does that sound familiar to someone in here? While STEEM is at an All Time Low, the guys running the show are discussing "should we choose a flag or a thumbs down"? hmmm... let us think about it for a while

this model?

or this one?

or should we go for something like this?

or more like this?

or let's make a compromise, a transgender neutral

Or let's just be real and take this one

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phasewalker (65) · 6 years ago

You simply renamed the problem - there are a ton of accounts simply downvoting / flaggin every post (some even automatically); those people don't provide any posts themselvs nor do they upvote... What do you do about them?

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jondoe (85) · 6 years ago

I voted earlier, but is this really the most important thing right now? We haven't heard much from you guys for two weeks and we are now just talking about changing verbage??? Please tell me there is more...

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justineh (71) · 6 years ago

There is an upcoming HF (to integrate the worker proposal system/Steem DAO). I believe the idea is to also add in these small “fixes” as well.

Some changes take time and aren’t ready to implement.. but small things that can be added to this HF with low effort but solve issues, seems like a good thing to me.

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bryan-imhoff (66) · 6 years ago

I’m actually a bit excited by the communities mention. They’re discussing this partly in the context of making room for a true (moderation style) flag implementation in the communities toolset, so I hope that signals forward momentum there!

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jondoe (85) · 6 years ago

That is a good point if that is where this is going. I just fear (if it actually is going that way) it will take years to implement, like everything else on here has.

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kid4life (68) · 6 years ago

Who cares how its called... Fix other stuff and improve the platform from BETA

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zuerich (61) · 6 years ago

Downvoting should be limited, e.g. to 20% of a maximum upvote.
There are flaggers/downvoters like @camillesteemer or @spaminator who downvote without reason and discourage people to create/post content.

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theycallmedan (75) · 6 years ago

Yes

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ma1neevent (66) · 6 years ago

Flags should be limited and only used for plagiarism, hate speech, etc and have it effect both rep and rewards. Down votes should be something seperate with a seperate vp and only hit rewards in my opinion.

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ocrdu (71) · 6 years ago

This makes me wonder about your priorities.

Do whatever you like quickly, and then move on to more important things.

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ats-david (74) · 6 years ago

No way, bro! Spend a year talking about making an insignificant change, then ultimately never implement it. Then ask the community for advice and feedback on the next insignificant change that won’t happen anyway.

You know...keep people distracted from the fact that the economics/incentives are broken AF due to their stupid hard forks...and continue dumping on all of the users/investors.

That’s the secret sauce in the “top-5 to below-50 market cap” recipe!

ocrdu (71) · 6 years ago

It does seem to distract a fair number of people away from what really matters, there is that.

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enforcer48 (68) · 6 years ago

Yes.

I echo everyone else who shares similar sentiments.

And why not use DPoll?

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lordbutterfly (70) · 6 years ago (edited)

YES

Sure, why not. It would change a few things but probably not much. I say go for it. Seems like a pretty basic thing to do.

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treepi (64) · 6 years ago

Downvote implies content you disagree with. Flag implies content that breaks rules. I say stick with flag.

Posted using Partiko Android

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fredrikaa (70) · 6 years ago

or have both. Downvotes is there to represent you disagreeing with rewards or how high it is sorted among comments. Flags are there to report abuse of steemit ToS and when enough people flag a post, it is reviewed to see if the content should be taken down (from steemit, not from the Steem blockchain of course, which is impossible).

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apsu (65) · 6 years ago

Are you also saying users shouldn't be able to point out their disagreement?

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treepi (64) · 6 years ago

No, but I think if downvotes are allowed they shouldn't impact payouts. Flags should though.

Posted using Partiko Android

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treepi (64) · 6 years ago

Disagreement on rewards is the only thing you could argue in your positions favor. However, I interpret that to mean low-quality/low-effort content with big payouts, not disagreements.

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apsu (65) · 6 years ago

Those are listed as "Some common reasons to flag" and typically "I don't like this" could fall under "Disagreement on rewards", as you had mentioned.

If someone thinks the post doesn't deserve rewards at all, then they can flag it as it's a disagreement on rewards. It doesn't require it to be low quality or low effort for someone to disagree on rewards.

But still, those are only listed as some common reasons to flag, as people can flag for any reason. Just like they can upvote without having a specific reason to upvote content.

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lordneroo (72) · 6 years ago

Yes.

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jacobtothe (70) · 6 years ago (edited)

No, but . . .

We need a way to differentiate between bad actors and substandard content. Spam, plagiarism, fraud, and other abuses need to be signalled to the community.

@mattockfs's comment is spot-on. Bidbots are doing a lot of harm to the reward pool and artificially inflating the reputations of their users. Perhaps voting needs two tiers. Reward only +/-, and reward and reputation +/-. In the mean time, we need to keep the flag as an indication of dishonest users.

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steevc (73) · 6 years ago

Yes, as some people get all upset by a flag.

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mechanicalowl (46) · 6 years ago

Yes, as some people get owl upset by a flag.

^{I am a bot. I detect owl related puns.}

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enforcer48 (68) · 6 years ago

Good bot.

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kabir88 (60) · 6 years ago

Yes

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sumit1998 (66) · 6 years ago

Yes , but it should not decrease the value gained by blog. It should be like indicators that indicates people are liking this blog or not

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abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago

It would be nice to have those indicators too, and it would be interesting to see a page ordered by 'likes'.

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enforcer48 (68) · 6 years ago

The funny thing is, likes can be bought, while flags are usually genuine whether the poster deserved it or not.

abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago

There isn't much that can't be bought.

Still, I'd like to see what content would rise to the top without using 'money' to order it.

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enforcer48 (68) · 6 years ago

Well, promotional services such as @promotedpost, and its similar cousins, will add several hundred "likes" for 1 Steem.

Just look at their Resteems and you will get exactly what you envision.

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abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago

Fair point, sigh.

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apsu (65) · 6 years ago

OR we could also remove the rewards too, just leave the upvotes be like indicators that indicate people are liking this blog or not.

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

You are dreaming, is not gonna happen in 5 years, not with these guys running the show.

All they are interested in is keeping Steemit as meaningless as possible. And they are doing a very good job at it.

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jbgarrison72 (49) · 6 years ago

Yes

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago (edited)

Guys, just had to power up again to get some stuff posted here.

Imagine you're from some country where you make 1$ a day and have to pay to try to interact on this platform, while on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook etc. it is free.

DO SOMETHING ABOUT THESE SORTS OF THINGS FIRST!

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isnochys (66) · 6 years ago

Yes

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mylord1992 (57) · 6 years ago

Hello bro, uh........
maybe we can chose”Dislike”
How do you think?😘

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

Nope, you want to make Steemit a succesful platform. That is the wrong mindset. It should be a small echochamber, a micro-bubble for pc poco nerds.

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a-non-e-moose (49) · 6 years ago

What's "pc poco"?

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pagandance (55) · 6 years ago

pc is shorthand for personal computer = nerds but also for poco = politically correct

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alokkumar121 (76) · 6 years ago

Glad to know that you're asking suggestions from people. I think this is good idea but I would say there are many other important things to do rather than this one.

Posted using Partiko Android

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kabir88 (60) · 6 years ago

If you're here for feedback, you could start by removing the 7 day monetisation window for content. It encourages low value content as the author knows it can only earn income within the first seven days. If you really want to monetise the "long tail" of content, you need to allow content to earn rewards for as long as people can view it

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