My growing concerns regarding the short to mid-term sustainability of Steem. Market corrections will likely handle long-term problems.
Voting Collusion While cooperation to distribute funds to the best work is the desired goal, collusion that undermines this objective should be minimized. There are two kinds of collusion , the most straightforward is when one user simply buys a larger stake than others, and the other involves coordinating a large number of smaller stakeholders to work together. Larger stakeholders can have the voting influence of 100 or even 1000 smaller stakeholders which means they have even greater incentive to defect by voting for themselves than they had under a linear distribution. Regardless of how much money any one individual has, there are always many other individuals with similar wealth. Even the wealthiest individual rarely has much more than the next couple wealthiest combined. Furthermore, those who have a large investment in a community also have the most to lose by attempting to game the voting system for themselves.
Source: Original Whitepaper - SteemIt
I am a firm believer in your stake is your stake and you can do what you want with it. I also believe that some of the problems we are having currently were predicted. The idea with stake is it works for both flagging and upvoting.
Yes, everyone can use their stake how they want, but that does not mean we can ignore those who are using their stake to take out as much money as they possibly can. I don't care if you buy or sell votes or help your family and friends, but like with anything there is a limit to what we can afford to drain out of a young platform.
If the large stakeholders will not counter the other large stakeholders, it doesn't work. Well intentioned or not it becomes a sort of ponzi scheme.
My concern is that we are letting some really big accounts take out more than what is good for the future economy of Steem.
One option several people are proposing is community flagging bots, which at first seems like a good idea.
However: No, I do not wish to delegate my stake to a community flagging bot, unless it has major whale support. After all as is often brought up they have the most to lose or gain. If they do not address the problem it will catch up to us in the price.
Non-Linear Rewards:
Can someone please figure out what Haejin and Sweetsssj's friends and family will be taking out if we made that change? Because I think it will be much worse. You can change the math, but if you don't solve the problem you just "move" it.
*spoiled stake attracts flies.
The tools we have at this time are flags, our voices and transparency. The question isn't can we stop abuse, the question is will we?
*Each user, including whales can only allocate their own share using votes, but that does mean we have to strike a balance between supporting those who create an economy and those who are just funneling Steem out of the system.
What are your thoughts?
80/20. 20% a day to flag, 80 to up. That's my plan when I become a dolphin.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I love the idea of having a set amount for flags, which we can choose to use or not. There is not enough flagging because of the fear of retaliation though.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I think about it like that also. I don't actually do the math, but I try to spend some percentage of my voting power each day on obvious abuse.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I have tackled this problem few days ago with my article.
Basically a came to a conclusion that every user has to choose a battle that he can win and proceed with flags. It’s pointless to have someone like bernie flagging puny spamming accounts (that can be flagged by us), instead the whales have to counter the abuse of whales...if that won’t happen Steem is bound to lose value as long as haejin and sweet (and their likes) will continue to rape the reward pool. All the whales that are IGNORING the matter are SUPPORTING the matter, because there are only handful of them that can counter abuse of such a scale.
My humble opinion is that the whales are underestimating the matter. They feel like Steem is prospering so there really isn’t anything too wrong with it. I on the other hand think that we currently are in Altcoin bubble (slowly popping at the moment) and that Steem will soon be at around 1 dollar again...maybe even lower. This conclusion is based on the premise that users do search around the platform before investing heavily and as soon as they spot those worthless trending "celebrities" they will realize that it’s really not that much about quality of the content for now.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I've been writing about this too. Some say that whales do these things, so they must be okay, but we each make our own judgement. I want to see Steemit grow and empower millions of people, but I see a lot of greed here. There's a quick buck to be made and people will take it. That could adversely affect the platform as others may be put off when they see its not about quality.
I see you bought a vote for this. Was that to get seen? I expect you would get good votes anyway
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Hey steevc,
I think if the large accounts want to drain the rewards they can. I also think as a community should talk about it. I think future and current investors can take a look at the situation and make a decision. For me the transparency and ability to discuss what is happening are what makes this "not a ponzi". Investors can be informed if they choose to.
I do buy votes. I buy them to get visibility and to improve my stake. When vote buying first came into the picture, I used them rarely on what i thought were my most important posts. Now I use them regularly.
On this post, I used a bit more because I knew some of the people who I wanted to see it, wouldn't - without getting some activity.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I've made the decision to not buy votes. I'll just take what comes in anyway. It's not all about money. I've seen people pay 50 sbd for a vote. That's not just for exposure
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Understood and respected. The high demand for the voting bots was created directly by the way the larger accounts have managed their stake.
Many want to complain about some small users gaining stake via the bots, while money pours out of the platform via large accounts.
One of the biggest problems is the distribution being held by so few people, and they tend to vote for each other and together. I'm cheering for anyone who can get a few extra steem. :) Including the occasional small scammer. After all Smooth and other witnesses would rather burn Steem than distribute it through our current system. Hard to pretend we are building a blogging site at this point. However, with communities and SMTs, there is still plenty of hope.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
@whatsup - The large accounts are interesting. Some distribute their upvotes/wealth around to many people. Others upvote just themselves or a small group of other whales and take out the money.
I've only been involved in Steemit for 4+ months and am a minnow but here is my 2 cents worth:
Many people hold to ideal beliefs and want a totally deregulated system that will police itself. I fell into this category when I started.
However there are a group of significant wealth holders who are abusing the system to their own gain and hurting the overall Steemit community. There have been quite a number of posts about this. Occasionally someone like @berniesanders goes after them by flagging. There is a "war"; some reconciliation is made.....but then the abuse continues.
@whatsup - I and many others appreciate your posts on bringing this matter to everyone's attention. But the people abusing the system continue. They are not the ones caring about your concerns. So what to do?
IMO, some regulation is needed by the coders of Steemit so it lessens the potential abuse. I know this goes against the ideal of total deregulation, but some regulation is needed. Some regulation....not a "Big Brother" mentality.
I liken this situation to the growth of large monopolies in the U.S. Having large successful companies that employ a lot of people is good for the economy. But when they abused their power and wealth, some anti-trust laws were made for the good of the country as a whole.
There has been a lot of talk; there has been some efforts made to correct the situation but they haven't been fruitful in accomplishing long-term what they tried to do. So, IMO, some action is needed by the founders to bring back a balance in the system. This will benefit EVERYONE....long-term.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
It is a stake based system and most want Crypto projects to be decentralized. So, I don't think the founders are going to save us.
It is up to the community to figure it out. Ned has communicated that with his actions.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I can understand his sentiments. There is an old saying, "The World is as you are." So that is how Ned would be and how he would work it out. But all people are not like him.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
He controls around 50% of the stake on the platform.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
A minority are taking a large portion of available rewards by various means. They could choose to support good content with votes and delegation. If we all race for maximum profit then steemit will lose all credibility. I'm in for the long term. I've done pretty well so far, but it could be a very different place in another year. I'm still optimistic and building my sp to do what I can to help
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I am also in it for the long haul. I didn't even use a voting bot until about 3 weeks ago. I was posting, commenting, manually curating, voting, flagging, etc. One whale even noticed that I was doing manual curation and began to follow my voting trail, with one exception. He didn't value what I was doing enough to vote for me. I appreciated his voting strength anyway.
My posts get a lot of activity and my account is too small to make a difference.
Why should I be more concerned about the platform than those who can make a bigger difference?
With Dan and others powering down for EOS, and the level of abuse that everyone is being taught to ignore. I decided that wasn't my best strategy on the platform.
I still vote, post, comment and engage, I've just decided it is my responsibility to ensure I also get to earn.
Look at the trending page, I am hardly abusing the system. I am building my stake.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I'm not attacking you. I just state my opinions, but everyone does what they want. We are just small fish, but I think we have some influence. The whales are people too. I hope enough of them want to help Steemit reach its potential
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
lol, I don't feel attacked by you. I do think I am trying to make a point to others who might see this as well.
I appreciate you and your contribution and attitudes. Glad you are here.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I don't know. I don't even have enough money to upvote all the good articles.. I can't go downvoting the thieves and plagarists. It's hard to find a clear cut path to do it. Delegate to Hendrix? Then there goes some of my Steem to upvote worthy posts. How I'd the best way of going about it would you say?
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I rarely downvote for this reason, there are too many struggling to have their goodnposts noticed that I can’t justify using my 24 cents to downvote someone. If I had a larger upvote and the ability to really do a dent in a scammers post I might do more on the flagging front but I’d still wish to use a majority of my voting power on upvoting, not on flagging.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I hear you. I think smaller accounts should probably stick with flagging a spam comment here and there.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I think there is a terrible and deserved fear of flagging. I don't want each user to spend all day looking for things to flag, but if each person, especially those with eyes on the site, cleaned one or two things up as they go... We would have the newer users trained to meet some expectations before their accounts get larger.
I don't want the small users having to try to clean up the large accounts, that was meant to be done by the other large accounts.
I am really calling out the whales on this post! Do some cleaning, dang it! :) And I don't mean cause drama, I mean just pull out your flag and use it.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I am on Steemit little more than a month. My SP is still small, but already has attained a reputation of 50. I think it's not bad for a month. During this time I have seen a lot of users and lot of posts. What struck me, everyone says, write quality posts and you will be happy. So what? I see a lot of really good posts that don't get anything. And then post with one photo and place text and wow, he cleans up. When the eyes of a beginner see this picture, he concludes. And he rarely comes to the conclusion, that it is necessary to continue to work hard, to write interesting posts. He will think, that he can buy the voices of the bots. Yes, you can make money here. But first of all, it is a platform for exchanging information and expressing opinions. Those who have power can influence it. First of all, these are flags. After all, a lot of spam, not only in posts but also in comments. People are not afraid to write outright nonsense, because they will not be anything for it. I really want this platform to develop, I think that each post has its own audience, but it should not be spam. I will continue to do my job here and hope for attention.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Yes @naditinkoff. I agree with you. It is discouraging to write a good, well-thought-out post and not get many votes and then see a minimal post get lots. A lot of people drop out because of this. I am glad you have continued. Me too.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Minnows and dolphins can only help as positive reinforcement, that is, supporting those who do a good job and contribute to the community, but only the whales have the real power to punish those who abuse the system, because although everyone has the freedom to place flags on the content that seems negative, flagged people usually take this as an insult and try to take revenge, distorting the whole system of voluntarist community. So, only the whales have the power.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Commenting to ping this and come back later to properly comment.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
It's such a difficult one because the spread of wealth is the same as almost every walk of life, with a small percentage of users controlling a huge percentage of the overall stake. When we have users abusing the platform it's all well and good for 1000 minnows to chime in and downvote, but one whale upvote still dwarfs them. They are also the ones who's rep can be totally destroyed by whales as has been seen in retaliation voting earlier this year. It's hard not to have that fear when your downvote is little more than symbolic. Unfortunately the abusers of the system are very unlikely to listen to reason, yes, they have the most to lose long term. But I don't believe any of the real abusers are in this for the long term. Unfortunately if no whales step up it will get to the point that they run this platform to the ground, gaining almost total control for themselves and pummeling the value with it.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
If they drive the price down, and I agree they will. It is a great entry point for others to buy in. With our current ability to manage the content, we are likely over valued at this point.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
It is a very complex problem, because first of all I don't believe the people who do this think it is wrong, they have a large stake and getting money from it is what they think should happen, so the simple answer would be to make them realize what they are doing is wrong, but actually I don't think this would work. Second flagging doesn't seem to be working, and also its scope is limited not only the two people you mention do this, so you would have to have a huge VP for the flags to mean anything, and that would also be wasting VP. Third you could implement a ban on people who do this, but they could just make a new account and it would be an endless chain of the same event. So the solution is also far from easy, I know I don't have it, but at least I can visualize the problem.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
It really is pretty complicated. Which is why I think calm discussion is part of the process. I also don't think they are "Wrong". I just think it isn't good for the platform's growth. Maybe they just do not care.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Do you be able to mention the name of these proposed community flag bot projects you are noting?
I ask that because I am working on something similar to that however characterizing it as a bot would not really give it justice. It's more of a communal flag account whereby people reecharge their right to up to a 100% flag in proportion to their delegated or donated SP via a flag console. We are concurrently working on ways to minimize the risk profile to delegators.
I know you weren't a fan of @steemflagrewards but we have already made a believer of at least one of the people who had doubted my intentions when we got into it in the chat room. (No hard feelings btw)
If I could make a believer out of you, I would say the sky is the limit as you seemed most closed to the concept of a community flag incentivization system. I'm not certain I understood the rationale of your doubts and would appreciate any clarity you may afford.
I have noted Steem possessing Ponzi-esque elements in previous comments and do not think accounts running the schemes are getting any weaker despite how much they cash out compared to those that believe in Steem for the long term who earn through honest and productive means.
You can keep doing the lone wolf flagging and pretend like organized flag alliances (or flag club in your words) have no utility but there may come a day yet where you realize that it will not be enough to repel the advances of our mutual enemies, the short sighted reward pool rapists.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Any effective project is going to need whale support, I recommend you start there. I mentioned this in the post and when you pitched the idea before as well.
I think I saw a post pitching flag-a-whale, yesterday, pulling that from memory, so it might not be the accurate name.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
@whatsup
Thanks for the advice. You're absolutely right. My plan is to have some form of a working demo when I pitch it to large stake holders who may be interested. I've tested the waters with a number of people on discord as well as the initial couple posts and there seems to be some interest. Think there could be demand if implemented properly.
Yep. You got it. Well, cat's out of the bag now. FAW is the project. It ain't shit right now but neither was SFR which people seem to be appreciate now (has plenty more work needed. I).
I put in a lot of time and if nothing else this will be an opportunity for me to learn some cool shit and make some abuse fighting friends along the way.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Also, I wanted to clarify that Flag-A-Whale is a bit of a misnomer. Just thought it was a clever name at the time because of abuse from a few notable whales. Of course, abuse occurs on all spectrums of SP holding and will be intended to flag any abuser no matter where they fall in the peking order. More than anything, it is intended to be deterrent against people trying to get junk posts to Trending. In theory, this would improve quality of content.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
My thoughts are, if we know we are going to limited the amount of reward going out to these big users, then why all the $900 on their post?, I believe this is a problem from the genesis, milking a whole lot of people to get to those large amount is preposterous, I guess even no body wants to risk their delegation to support, maybe a flagging bot.
However the future of steemit is at stake, we must all know that sharing the reward pool unequally will make done people drain the system, it's too much the future of some people lies here on steemit and the guys are draining it.
It maybe hard but I think reward pool sharing should cease to be unequally, that way the community can survive
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Tulisan yang menjadikan motivasi buat oembaca
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
This post has received gratitude of 2.83 % from @appreciator thanks to: @whatsup.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
good post
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I like-minded with you, to delegate we have to think of a way as well.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Some food for thought right there.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Hello, @whatsup my name is Ian, I'm a freelance writer doing an article about the experiences of content creators on Steemit. Would you be willing to discuss your experience with me? Any insights you have would be appreciated. You can see my work here on Steemit at @enedws and I'm on Twitter at @ianedws. Thank you!
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Thanks for calling attention to the problem. I've only been active on Steemit for about a month and have just started to gain some understanding of the larger structure. I think what trips a lot of new users up, or rather, what keeps them from engaging in this conversation is a complete lack of awareness that this conversation even exists and needs to happen. In my case, I definitely approached the platform initially like you would any other social media/blogosphere. But it inherently has to be a community driven system.
I think we are starting to see the pressure points of decentralized platforms. Direct democracies are cool and all, but when the village is too big for group talk to actually happen, then you end up with a defacto oligarchy.
I'm not saying that there aren't viable solutions, but it may involve some protocol tweaking.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
You got a 1.23% upvote from @buildawhale courtesy of @whatsup!
If you believe this post is spam or abuse, please report it to our Discord #abuse channel.
If you want to support our Curation Digest or our Spam & Abuse prevention efforts, please vote @themarkymark as witness.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
very nice your post
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Wonderful post thanks for sharing us
@upvoted
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
nice your post i will done up vote..
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit