View this post on Hive: SBD Print Rate: 0%
SBD Print Rate: 0%
6 years ago by themarkymark (78)
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Nothing changes really (in terms of SBD; it does imply a further 50% drop in the price of STEEM which would certainly be painful all around). Since no one is converting SBD the amount of STEEM you would get by converting it is irrelevant. If SBD does drop to $1 or below and it starts getting converted then the ratio would probably drop (eventually).
BTW, the main reason conversion was removed from the UI was people were doing it anyway when SBD was worth $10 and burning 90% of their money. To protect people who didn't really understand what was going on, that option was disabled. However, with SBD back close to $1 it would be reasonable to re-enable it (I'm also told that it is possible to perform conversions using steemconnect for people who don't want to use the CLI).
The price will drop! If it drops to $1 or below then people will start converting it and the ratio will drop.
Most likely the SBD held in exchange accounts is actually owned by exchange customers and not the exchanges themselves. Most of it isn't being used directly for liquidity, it is just being held. Who those customers are, what they want the SBD for, what they will do in the future are all unknown.
As you noted there are improvements already being made in the upcoming hard fork. Also, at a current price of $1.03, I wouldn't consider it to be all that unpegged (this is within the range observed for other decentralized pegged tokens such as DAI or BitUSD). You can take a glass half empty approach and say that SBD going up to $12 proves that pegging doesn't work or half full approach and say that it dropping back down from $12 to $1-$1.20 and staying there for the past couple of months proves that pegging does work (if imperfectly). Eye of the beholder I suppose.
BTW, a large part of why the print rate is zero has almost nothing to do with SBD and everything to do with the STEEM price dropping. When STEEM isn't worth much the whole system is hobbled in a lot of ways, SBD being one of them but hardly the only one.
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The user @mwfiae made a very easy to use tool for this exact purpose when the SBD seemed to drop under 1 USD for the first time after the removal of the convert function
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Thanks for the mention!
Hope my tool can help some people who aren't familiar with cli's etc. :)
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I think from an investor perspective, a lot changes.
I believe you are right, but you can also use cli wallet to do it. The blockchain still supports it, it's just missing from the UI as it is a bad idea to do it when SBD is more than $1.
I'm suspecting the same.
I disagree, it is extremely unpegged, just happens to be near $1 right now. If Steem was to rise to $2 or even $3, I would bet SBD will travel with it, albeit slightly behind. So I don't think it's come down to it's peg as much as just happens to be following Steem which happens to be near $1.
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Yup marky wins :)
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Here is an interesting chart to test the hypothesis of SBD being linked with STEEM.
https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/spread/BITTREX%3ASTEEMBTC%2FBITTREX%3ASBDBTC/
In fact, there isn't that strong of a link. The ratio has varied from 0.2 in December (SBD worth 5x more than STEEM) to a high of about 1.6 in mid May (SBD worth only 62% as much as STEEM) before reversing and heading back down. What happened in mid May to cause such a clear and rapid reversal after an 8x increase?
Well that was exactly when the the debt ratio reached 2% and SBD printing started getting reduced (and STEEM printing increased)! This had precisely the effect one would expect from the change in supply (though not what one would normally want): SBD got relatively stronger and STEEM got relatively weaker.
The improvements made in HF20 (mostly increasing the 2-5% threshold to 9-10% instead) should be very helpful, although it still may not be enough. It's a step in the right direction for sure.
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I’m not saying link as closely related, more like BTC / alt coins. When BTC falls they all fall. Some faster some slower. But they go in the same general direction. If Steem went to $2 I am not saying SBD would as well but I would expect it to move to $1.25-$1.50+ until something changes to actually peg it. It was $1 a while ago and went up when Steem had a bump.
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It is true that all or almost all cryptocurrencies seem to move together to a large extent. I still find the chart pretty interesting (the movements of which show how SBD and STEEM sometimes don't move together), especially the reversal when the soft limit was hit, which seems to say quite a bit about the pegging mechanism. But of course I can't prove any sort of causal relationship from a chart, it could be coincidence or some other factor involved.
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Maybe a wager is in order :). You a betting man?
100 Steem and we set conditions and deadline? Donate it to a good cause like @Helpie.
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I'm not against making a wager but I'm not sure what we are wagering on? That SBD and STEEM more together to some extent and to some extent don't? We probably agree on that. That SBD probably won't stay 'close' to $1 all the time unless other mechanism improvements are made? We probably agree on that too. That HF20 will improve the peg to some extent? We may not agree on that but it may also be difficult to measure or define.
You don't really need to wager with me though, you can buy SBD for about $1.05. If you are sure of a big pump (maybe to $10+ like last time) then just buy as much as you can. Not doing so would be giving up an 'easy' 10x.
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I just wanna say markymark for president real quick.. ok, done
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STEEM investor or SBD investor? Actually in neither case does much change right at 10%. As the ratio exceeds 10% then SBD becomes gradually less backed by STEEM. If SBD is worth more than $1 then clearly SBD investors aren't counting on being fully backed by STEEM anyway (they aren't). If isn't worth more than $1, then it would be getting converted and its supply would be shrinking, effectively resolving the situation (albeit at an uncertain rate).
Of course, if the ratio hits 10% that would currently mean that STEEM has dropped another 50% which clearly matters a lot to STEEM investors, but again the exact 10% threshold doesn't change anything here, its just an arbitrary number when looking at the STEEM price doing what it does (fluctuate).
So I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
Possibly you are right, but this is really just guesswork. Market conditions change and just because SBD got pumped, apparently mostly from Korea, in the past doesn't mean it would happen exactly that way in the future. There are some dramatic differences, for example the supply of SBD being 15 million rather than 1 million, where it was before the first SBD pump in 2017 (the increase occurred due to the slow, but not nonexistant, action of the pegging mechanism). That 15x ratio might matter, or it might not. Likewise for the planned changes in HF20. I don't see any way to know for sure in advance.
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@smooth Can you make a youtube tutorial with animation of how sbd debt ratio and steem relates to each other? Im hardly a financial guy and im having hardtime understanding. Since i noticed youre so actively trying to explain it to everyone. I think making a youtube animation tutorial will save you lots of breath and make potential investors to understand more about the system. I really appreciatee if @steemitblog will consider this when releasing a new update each time. Not everyone is technically skilled at this. But an attempt to make it more digestable is highly appreciated.
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Honestly I have not the slightest idea how to make a youtube tutorial, but if someone wants to create one I would be happy to proofread the script (or whatever it is that you write to make an animated tutorial).
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Well if you're motivated enough, you can make a post on hiring some creative content producer to do it.. Considering the amount of stake you have in this platform, it should be easy? But it's just my suggestion.
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That's a really big point
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That's the pegging mechanism in action. It it just really slow unfortunately, and has other issues. But it isn't nonexistent or completely ineffective (I think).
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This is my understanding. On the low side it has a hard ped (redeemable at $1) and on the high side it has a soft peg (prints more and no one redeems).
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The UI still has it:
Much better than when it did not even have this option
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No, that is not the SBD conversion. That's the payout rewards option.
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I think it is pegged in one direction only.
We should add a way to convert steem to SBD for a small fee. This would create a better peg.
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I would say SBD is a pegged asset with upside exposure :) with 1 USD being the safety net for retailers accepting SBD.
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That doesn't work at all at significantly above $1 (say $10). No one will spend SBD worth $10 when retailers are pricing in SBD unless they are uninformed (and that is just taking advantage of noobs, who will end up with a very bad taste once they figure out what happened). So either it stops being used altogether, or it stops being used for pricing and becomes a regular effectively-unpegged token with a dynamic exchange rate. It would be mostly okay for a small premium like 1.01-1.10.
Also, nobody would design a token like that, nor objectively think it would be useful. This is essentially just rationalizing the flaws in the existing design with some claimed (but really not very realistic) benefit. (Okay an exception might be retailers who could get some extra value from it, but again, doing that by ripping off less informed users is not a good long term approach from a system-wide perspective.)
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What system do you want? You seem to be knowledgable
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I'd like to see SBD work better than it does. The upcoming hard fork has a couple of somewhat minor code improvements, additional code improvements can be made, and some improvements may come implicitly from scale should Steem (hopefully) grow larger.
I think it is pretty useful even without a perfect peg, assuming the peg is at least approximate. For small purchases a few percent fluctuation doesn't really matter. For large purchases people will adjust to the exact market price, but that's okay. Over time I think we can get there.
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Should you and other top witnesses not setting price feed bias percentages, with a SBD Debt Ratio at 6+% ... there is to much steem being printed.
Or is it that you and the witnesses know this an play dumb? Because at 10% the SBD floor will be gone, and a bail-in is just what you guys want so that users and community be pickpocketed?
Who else is going to pay to bring that 15+ million SBD Debt down? Who is going to burn it?
Looking forward to your answer.
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There is no basis for a price feed bias at this time. Nothing in the white paper (even accounting for subsequent changes in the consensus rules or understanding of the economics) would suggest it. Setting that aside, if a price feed bias were used, let's consider how that would work:
The rest of your comment is largely incoherent.
The SBD smart contract includes (since almost two years) the possibility that (based on 10% market cap) SBD may shift from being pegged (if imperfectly) to USD to being pegged to STEEM. If and when the ratio subsequently decreases, it returns to being pegged to USD. Any SBD holders who don't like taking that risk not only had the opportunity to sell over the past nine months at prices as high as about $10 but can still sell or convert at about $1.
Everyone is in the same boat here, we would all like the price of STEEM to rise. But if it doesn't the system includes reasonable rules for how to handle that situation with respect to SBD.
People may burn some coins (for example see the promoted feature) but that certainly isn't part of the consensus rules. No one should count on any amount of coins being burned.
BTW, referring to SBD as a debt instrument or debt-like instrument is an analogy. It isn't literal. "Debt" implies some sort of claim against an asset, which doesn't exist here. SBD holders have the right to trade their tokens or convert them according to the smart contract, that is all.
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Those are the wrong answers. I am out. I see what course this ship has chosen... I wish you good luck on your adventures.
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Should you and other top witnesses not setting price feed bias percentages, with a SBD Debt Ratio at 6+% ... there is to much steem being printed.
Or is it that you and the witnesses know this an play dumb? Because at 10% the SBD floor will be gone, and a bail-in is just what you guys want so that users and community be pickpocketed?
Who else is going to pay to bring that 15+ million SBD Debt down? Who is going to burn it?
Looking forward to your answer.
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Indeed it would. Any idea of why it hasn't been re-enabled?
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Because as long as SBD is over $1 you will lose value. It only recently came close to $1 but I still don't feel it is "pegged" but more happens to be near $1. A lot of costly mistakes were made with the conversion feature when SBD was worth more than $1.
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This sounds like a "Nanny State" type of response. Sure there is an argument for protecting ignorant users when the SBD price is maybe 1.10+ but at the current level there may be genuine non-technical users who would be happy to pay a small premium for the convenience and/or to see the systems debt level reduced.
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Right now it is trading at 1.03 according to steemdollar.com. We would probably pay less now using this conversion than an exchange. Blocktrades charges 5%, and I think they are one of the exchanges with lower fees. It would be nice to see it keep within 5% in a bull market as well but this hasn't happened yet. We will see what happens when McAffee's private parts become safe or the next halfening of the blockchain reward for BTC. Which ever comes first. :)
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No, but my guess would be: a) other priorities, b) SBD is still above $1 (if only just) so in most cases conversions are pointless still. Most of the major traders/investors who want to do this are comfortable using the CLI (or possibly steemconnect) anyway.
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a) Is just not valid. To re-enable previously disabled functionality in a UI is seriously a 5 minute job - maximum.
b) I wouldn't consider it pointless. If I was a big holder of SBD and wanted to liquidate, converting to STEEM at 1.01 or 1.02 it is still much more preferable for all involved than dumping my large SBD holding on the open market - paying brokerage and damaging my sell price with volume in the process.
But sure, major traders/investors (a.k.a. speculators) are not affected and those are the ones we really care about...
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If you are really a big holder such that you can't sell without crushing the market below $1 (easily thousands of SBD can be sold >$1 though, just not instantly) and you care about this you can manage to figure out how to use the CLI or it can be done with steemconnect (which amounts to putting the request in a web link and typing it or copying it into your browser; I believe there are some posts explaining how to do this).
Bear in mind that the UI in no way supports the entire range of Steem blockchain features. For example, withdraw routes are another feature that can only be done using the CLI (or steemconnect). Or creating accounts, or fill-or-kill market orders, or several other things. Once SMTs arrive there will likely be a lot of SMT functionality that can't be accessed via the web site. I think its okay that the web UI provides basic functionality and to do the rest you have to use some other tool.
You mean slippage maybe? Because if you trade on the internal market there are no fees. You can only trade for STEEM, but that's what you get if you were to convert anyway.
I agree with you on a) but in practice there seems to be a problem with walking and chewing gum at the same time around here.
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Okay, Sorry but I just have to ask, this conversion function that some of these people want to come back, is this the same conversion that took 3 1/5 days to convert SBD to steem? If so I, as a non-crypto person thinks it should stay gone. the internal market does the same thing only faster.
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Yes that is the function they are talking about.
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I hope they do not bring it back, after @everittdmickey explained the internal market, It was a big boon to me. So thank you for trying to keep things clear.
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Nice
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I could implement this over on steemfiles.com but you'll have to audit Typescript/Javascript code or trust me. I should link to the source code of the steem-js fork I use but the rest is clear un-obfuscated javascript.
Motivate me to implement it and I'll start on it.
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Peg to $10 I say.
Cg
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That would crush STEEM. At the current 50% debt ratio the outstanding SBD would be multiplied by 10 and would represent a 50% increase in the supply of STEEM. How is an already-weak STEEM market going to support that? It won't.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
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What if for future value movements, as sbd goes back to 10 or more than 1, steem goes the same way? Or lets say steem goes higher than sbd? Would that make a correct proportion of debt ratio as a stable one?
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Sorry I'm not understanding your question.
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I think trying to manipulate SBD back down to $1 when Steem was $3 and SBD was about $8 is more detrimental to Steem.
Cg
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Hi, @themarkymark, let me ask you: if the amount of SBD in circulation is higher than the amount of SBD on the Steem platform, where is the SBD that is not in the Steem platform?
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It should all be here, as the exchanges have accounts here acting as gateways. Just noting the difference in numbers.
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I am holding my SBD for the next pump.
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very informative thanks
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It seems that many things are just dreamworld and not straight thinking.
Honestly how can you not have enough free money to fix a problem?
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So does this mean that Steemit is sort of broken at this point?
I've been on the platform about seven months, but I've never been all that into crypto. For me it was just a way to get out views anonymously that I would have trouble expressing publicly, and maybe make some money on the side. This is a pretty good explanation, but I'm just not sure what this means about the functionality of the site, or how this might get fixed?
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Steem is still beta is one way of looking at it.
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Geeks love problems and fixing stuff ;-))
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SBD PUMP any one?
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Time to Buy SBD :)
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The way the system is designed the SBD to USD peg will never work. What they should do is completely get rid of SBD, disable it from being created moving forward and allow the people who are still holding it to convert it to STEEM at peg value or let them keep trading it on the market, just do not create anymore SBD.
If people want a pegged asset on the STEEM blockchain wait till SMT functionality comes out and create an asset that is similar to bitUSD, even something like that is not guaranteed though...
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A few of us have been talking about sbd for a few weeks now, all asking what point it serves, and you answered that question "ish" it still seems useless, as sellers could sell liquid steem instead of sbd with a 50-50 split as it is now, sbd just complicates life for investors and new comers (in my opinion). Cheers themarkymark.
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With HF20 looking to change the print rate slide to only kick in between 9 and 10%, if 10% is reached perhaps the threshold will be move to 15% and so on. We'll just keep on printing that SBD assuming it is pegged to 1 USD anyway.
I don't think freedom will sell out until the peg is fixed properly at 1 USD, or it drops below $1 long enough to do a big conversion at a bigger profit. The conversion option would be better for the economics for sure.
SBD remaining unpegged just make it difficult for anyone to operate business at a stable price. Perhaps having a stable peg would encourage greater volume of conversion to liquid Steem and stimulated an increase in the Steem price too. As it stands now, SBD is our main liquid currency because that's what we get from rewards, and is widely accepted as payment in most places.
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An interesting concept that probably hasn’t work as the ecosystem has not provided many marketplaces until the recent release of steemmonsters which are on your list as big holders. It would be interesting to see how many start converting to STEEM as parity gets closer.
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Well, if it helps, I did my small part and transferred my little bit of SBD. I need more funds for expenses anyway, so I took the opportunity to transfer out some Steem as well, Steem I had not yet powered up, so I don't have to touch my SP. That's the goal. It's not likely to change value any time soon, and I was only waiting to have enough that when I'd convert it to CAD in the exchange after, that it would be enough to send to my bank account in one go. Google and Telus need to start accepting payment in Litecoin lol
Thank for the info about this. I had noticed a drop in SBD rewards and an increase in Steem rewards, and then the gap became bigger and bigger. It makes a bit more sense now to me, though I still don't fully get it. If there are people who have so much SBD, why not transfer a portion of it. I mean if I had that much SBD, I'd be able to invest in a bunch of other cryptos and paying my bills would be the least of my worries ;)
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Yeah they should buy some SCR coins on OpenLedger ;-)))
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wow awesome concept sir.. i like this thanks for share your inportant concept..
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I don't understand why @bittrex holds so many SBD?
Do they really need such a big amount to keep trading possible?
Or are that funds from people stalled on @bittrex?
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A lot of it is likely users wallets on the exchange. It's hard to tell which is which.
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That SBD are from other users that keep it there and not in Steem account.
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What do you guys think that will happen to bid bots?
As most people paid those in SBD. But as of now we don't earn any SBD.
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Most bots take Steem at this point as well. You can also trade SBD->STEEM and STEEM->SBD on the internal and external markets.
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I know I can trade Steem for SBD and also use Steem for the bid bots. But somehow it looks like not everyone knows this. Or there is a different reason why bid bots are becoming less popular....?
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If they're smart then holders would dump them if they pump.
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What are you talking about? Most accept STEEM
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Yeah I know.
But why is it that bid bots are becoming less popular?
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What? People use them daily
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They break proof of brain.
Who wants to read content that bought its own trophy?
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I'm not sure if I understand you correctly.
Do you mean that the system doesn't work as intended?
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The idea of steem was to build a repository of human curated content.
The 'good' content is supposed to get votes and be rated higher in the rankings.
By allowing vote selling that doesnt happen.
The content becomes content from those that pay for their higher rankings negating the curation by pushing crap to the top rather than popular content.
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They break proof of brain.
Who wants to read content that
Bought its own trophy?
- freebornangel
I'm a bot. I detect haiku.
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I still don't understand your shit!
Please explain!
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Nice
Posted using Partiko Android
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I am of the opinion that SMT would do greatly to help fix this messed up dynamic between steem/sbd. Am I out there or wrong in thinking that? Right now there is little control for the average user on here to affect the macro markets, but with SMT they are a little more insulated within their group they choose to coexist among in that micro economy on here. I think it brings a lot of confidence in to the Steemit platform and much control of one's destiny on here should they lose faith in the current Steem/SBD current arrangement having SMT payments available through posts of their choosing.
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O wow crazy right ?
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I've been watching the payout in SBD get lower and lower, but WOW, I don't think I've ever seen it at zero before!
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You are not losing money, just getting paid out differently.
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Um, yes, I understand. I'm not an idiot.
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what is the best thing i can do right now ?
sell steem for sbd or buy steem with sbd.
from an cashing out point of view in the near pump ?
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I have close to 200 sbd....what would be best to deal with...shall i exchange it. Steem or promote my content to gain some whales visibility a bit?
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Thanx for your knowledge ,
Rebloged.
To the Israeli community.
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thanks for info
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You're making some very good points and I really like the discussion here with @smooth and @themarkymark. There's a bunch of topics I would also like to bring up here:
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I still have a few sbd unchanged, but I was holding lots of sbds without changing them to steem because the ratio was bad for a while and then it all felt unsecure to do transactions... Like all has been going up and down and up and down and I stopped looking the numbers until they it the one dollar floor, now it's when we must see if there is really a safe wall there or if we go down... I kind of feel it will go down but then will recover. It's kind of a purge
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Interesting, if we exclude exchanges, you are on rank 3 of SBD holders:)
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_
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This is news to me!
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I didnot know @me-tarzan owns that insane amount of SBDs!! I see him tirelessly post here on Steemit.
All this stuff has much tech jargon hehehe but i have grasped for the first time this sbd peg thing!
There is this reason where you said people are holding and waiting for the pump.....!
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@rentmoney - this article may answer your question
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Very good posts, hopefully you can always be successful in the esteem business
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OMG. It has cost me a bit to understand about this world. Can you recommend me where to translate this information and some other article in Spanish ?. I'm interesting to learn. Thank you. I have noticed that the recompressions in healing in sbd have gone down a lot.
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Highly rEsteemed!
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Great article! Thanks for info 🤘😎
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It may be unpopular but I like this change
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I still think the blockchain should sell sbd for 1usd of steem.
A 10 day average could be used to quash manipulation.
The procedes from sales go into the regular inflation.
When sales exceed regular inflation payouts go up.
When sbd exceedes the debt ratio, the steem can be burned.
This pegs sbd by meeting demand for sbd at 1usd per.
It also makes it realistic for billions of sbd to exist for use as a dollar/euro substitute.
As it is, we can barely pay a semipro hockey team, and then having met payroll we have no sbd left for tshirt sales.
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Wow. Scary. This means it may be dumped.
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Hey I would like to make a translation to your posts. I am from Venezuela and this information would be of great help to the Spanish-speaking community. If you give me permission I would be happy to translate it.
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Thanks for that explanation ... I was wondering why the rewards for SBD were lately very meager and small. Now it makes sense.
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Has there ever been a haircut scenario to SBD in steemit's history? I can't remember. I know SBD's have been lower than a $1 before but that might have just been from market volatility.
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remove sbd from the system totally
keep only steem n sp
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nice post. this posts have really big points.
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Great
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im wodering if the SBD when to return? sad life
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con·trol freak
ALERT TO ALL now to the definition and please take the time to look them up and you will find them also to all you will very quickly understand and realize that the definitions fit perfectly the @sadkitten and the one who made it, and that is very sad to all us on steem, with all the control freaks on here , steem and steemit has no where to go but down to the trash can as trash , so sell all of your steem and get out as fast as possible and run run as far away as you can
con·trol freak noun informal
a person who feels an obsessive need to exercise control over themselves and others and to take command of any situation.
Psychopath:
A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.
Psychopaths tend to lack normal human emotions such as guilt. They are also often highly intelligent and skilled at manipulating others.
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I didn't understand all of this before reading this post, now I think I understand it slightly... Not sure if Inderstand more than %50 of it.
This is something I think about every now and then, whenever SBD gets close to $1 I feel happy (and sad at the same time when it's lower.)
When pegged it offers more stability which I think it's a good thing, especially that Steem price is better when compared to SBD other than other currencies.
But now I feel that both follow Bitcoin more and I don't know it's it's better to keep SBD anymore.
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