Large-scale socialism is ultimately harmful to a society

in socialism •  8 years ago  (edited)

One example on a smaller scale would is a group project in a classroom (it's fine to assume that this takes place in a private school, otherwise all of the following would be a funny sort of convoluted hahaha).

Let's say there are 30 students and 6 groups of 5 kids each, and they are tasked with some project (maybe a science experiment & report, for example). Each member of the group is to receive the same grade as the rest of their group. Of course, projects like this actually exist, and for good reason, since we all need to learn how to interact with each other and work as a team. This is highly socialistic in nature, and I think everyone agrees that it is overall a very good and very necessary part of our development. There is certainly an element of capitalism, too, since it is known to the entire group that a satisfactory grade will not be given if No One contributes high-quality work. One of the main things I wish to show here is that this is not a black-and-white all-capitalism vs all-socialism scenario (and neither is our society).

It would be nice if all members of the group contributed a similar amount, but I think we all agree that that is an unrealistic expectation. I admit that this is a separate problem on its own, but with the zillions of factors and variables that come into play (even with humans who have only been alive for maybe 15 years), it's simply too much to ask. At least it's out of reach for the foreseeable future. However, there is a wonderful self-policing mechanism built into this group. Each member has access to information such as what things the other member has contributed, and they can even directly observe fellow members during class time. So if Sarah notices that Katie isn't "carrying her weight" (think: "behaving in a socially responsible manner"), Sarah can first speak to Katie directly. And/or she can discuss her concerns with the entire group (arguably the best route). And/or she can take her issue to the instructor (also not a bad route, since the instructor is only tasked with 30 individuals). This self-policing mechanism can (and should, imo) be extended/fortified with a "peer evaluation" portion of the project. But by doing so, the scenario becomes more capitalistic since each member's grade would (at least somewhat) reflect their effort. So let's forget about that aspect for the moment (although it's worth noting that the scenario is optimized by introducing capitalism).

SO. Our analogy began to break down as soon as we observed the self-policing mechanism. Even without peer-eval: shirkers can't hide, and there is punishment for shirking (in the form of condemnation by peers and/or reprimand or worse from the instructor. More drastic measures are not often taken in a scenario with kids in a school group project). And yet I think we all still agree that some members end up taking advantage of others. These students are often among the "lowest performing." We can't avoid the effects of this. More and more of the "middle-performing" students who are a bit torn between their innate desire to be all that they can be and to be lazy will inevitably follow suit. There is an unavoidable snowball effect until even the highest-performing, most "magically" driven members are affected. They will either become disenchanted with the notion of putting forth maximum effort, or they will be inundated by the burden which now rests on only their shoulders. Group projects don't always illustrate all of these effects to a great degree since they are over and done in a month or so. The analogous scenario in our society lasts decades for any one individual, but is actually an ongoing process from one generation to the next.

NOW. This analogy began with a group of FIVE. And there exists a self-policing mechanism which is 99% absent in our society since we can easily conceal nearly All aspects of (legal) behavior (and even some illegal behavior, perhaps). So let's expand the group project to a size of 30 (and assume that the scale of the project is appropriate for that number of members). The elegant self-policing mechanism becomes exponentially less efficient and less effective. Speaking to one person directly is still a viable option, but as we know this strategy is a 50-50 at best. It often ends up being one person's opinion vs another's. Gathering the entire group to address concerns of just one member is very difficult and very inefficient. Increase the size to 300 and it's impossible. A small sub-group could be rallied, but there is no way to ensure that this group will be an unbiased "simple random sample" representative of the entire group. In fact, it is likely that it will be the exact opposite. Sarah will likely form of group from her friends to maximize her chances of achieving her desired result. What about going to the instructor? That would still work with only 30, perhaps. Although it seems silly to demand the instructor's full attention for every little issue that pops up. If the group were 300 or even perhaps 60, the instructor could no longer keep up. More instructors? Sure, but if the instructor is (correctly) analogous to our government, the ratios we are hinting at are certainly not realistic/sustainable. Our political leaders have thousands and millions of constituents--not dozens haha.

The previous elegant, efficient, and effective system has gone to complete shit. Even worse, the beneficial (and capitalistic) concept of a peer-eval is no longer feasible. Each student clearly cannot be expected to evaluate every other student. Small groups could be randomly made by the instructor, but there still does not exist an analog to this in our society since we do not have access to other members' details. To make socialism even have a prayer of working, we would need to institute a policy of full disclosure, which would clearly work to reduce our freedom--the thing we hold most dear and which socialism is already diametrically opposed to. Even in such a scenario, the only incentive would be FEAR of condemnation by society. This is Complete Shit for motivation. A system like this will eventually result in a minimization of a society to the point of its destruction, with the only exception being a small, surviving group of the ruling elite (think: Rothschild).

Conclusion: socialism is a necessary and beautiful thing. It is the underpinning of our civilization. However, when expanded beyond a Very small scale, it has myriad negative effects. The goal of socialism is to end up with a more level playing field. Its supporters are shortsighted though, because they do not consider that this "level playing field" will continuously seek an overall lower level, further distancing society from a small group of ruling elite, and only making it easier for said elite to maintain control and ensure the continuation of its power until the actual source of its power is completely destroyed. Even the elite are mistaken in their (admittedly diabolical) benefit of socialism, because without a large society to extract from, their power (money) is meaningless. Hopefully they keep their skills sharp

Every time that one person helps another with no expectation of direct, tangible reward, it is socialistic. The value of this type of thinking cannot possibly be overstated. But when the concept is expanded and made systematic, free will is lost. Freedom is lost. And in the absence of an appropriate dose of capitalism, incentive is absent.

Socialistic scenarios are fabulous, but only in their naturally-existing small scale. When they are (designedly) expanded beyond a Very small scale, shit hits the proverbial fan. All of this reasoning is based on a very basic understanding of human nature, which, if not already possessed, can be easily obtained by thoughtful observation of one's daily interactions combined with honest introspection.

There is just one last thing to say, which ties all of the above to the actual topic of national education. If anyone has actually read all of the above or at least scanned it for accuracy, please let me know if you'd like to hear the punchline.

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The problem is everybody just looks at all the negative aspects of a system they don't like, if we could take the good parts of every system and are able to blend them into a system that would really work for the good of all we would be in much better shape. But our human aspect makes us attack that which we don't understand or have been taught to not like. Every system has its cons and its pros, but what they don't have are people who are willing to adapt to a new way of looking at things.

"Every system has its cons and its pros..." Including this system?: "if we could take the good parts of every system and are able to blend them into a system that would really work for the good of all we would be in much better shape."

Anyway, is there some particular part of the post that you disagree with?

Of course including this system, it would be better than anything out there now but still would not be perfect, and you know why? Because of human nature we are a greedy and envious race and I think sometimes we would rather be down the crapper ourselves than see someone making it good.
As for your article, it's about the same thing of course socialism doesn't work, nothing works, look at capitalism, feudalism, communism, monarchism all of them have one thing in common, the people at the top take advantage of the majority at the bottom. How? They control production, have a big army and that's it. And lately it has gotten even worse, we had a more equitable society after WWII with a growing middle class, but then new policies started coming out like neoliberalism and all of a sudden the new middle class are the poor and we have an incredible amount of billionaires who have taken advantage of a lot of loopholes, and this is all over the world, I'm from Honduras a very poor country and even we have our billionaire and a few others who are close to getting there, but our middle class has disappeared most of us are only poor. Same thing all over Latin America, and it's not a left- right thing it's an us vrs them (with them being the elites) and they are beating the crap out of us.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

"...it's not a left- right thing it's an us vs. them (with them being the elites) and they are beating the crap out of us." I agree with this SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much. Almost completely correct. The reason why the small group of elites are SO much wealthier/more powerful is a lack of education/development of intelligence in the general population. And the reason that we are failing at that is because of socialistic aspects of our society such as "welfare," public education, and insurance of every type. Damage being done by the "food," medicine/"health care," and alcohol industries amplifies the problem. Here's how I see it: the nation is mostly split 50/50 rep vs dem. The dem half are completely mislead and there is Nothing good there. Eliminate that and you have the rep party. This is a good start, with some good things and bad things and a lot of stuff worth contemplating and voting on. But the dem half needs to become only a shameful memory in American history much like the slavery from which it was born.

"...human nature...we are a greedy and envious race..." My solution to limit the adverse effects of greed is to impose a cap on the size that a business can reach. Google can be an exception ;-)

Capitalism doesn't work? Where does it exist? Where has it ever existed?? Who cares, just analyze the theory and see that everything will eventually fall into place.

You are oversymplifying this, your problem is you are centering this in the US, and you wrongly believe Republicans are spot on, this is not so, they are just as guilty as any other political party in the world all of them put their own interests before those of the people they supposedly represent, in their heads all that matters is power for themselves. That is why I tell you they are beating the crap out of us because we are seeing the enemy as friends, every politician is your enemy regardless of who he or she is. For example you right there state that half of the population of your country is deluded, problem is the other half thinks exactly the same thing about you, and the funny thing is both sides are deluded.
And this is happening all over the world, in Europe, Asia, Africa everywhere.
Take Brexit, what did it achieve, I'll tell you what, a division so deep in British society that probably it will take decades to cool down, and this over a referendum which right now no one really knows what it was about.

You and I are Very much on the same page. I agree that the war between the two major political parties is insignificant compared to the (unacknowledged) war between all of the minions and the small group of elite. Absolutely. I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on this, but maybe on another post that one of us makes (or maybe you have already made).

However, I will still defend all of the above. I did not say that Republicans are spot on, or anything of the nature. I did say, and can prove, that Democrats/liberalism is "spot off." It's completely misguided. Good intentions prima facie, destructive results just a couple steps down the road.

So why do I speak out against it when, as we agree, the bigger fight is against a common enemy? Because liberalism/Democrats/socialism is a cancer that is weakening us. I believe that it was contrived by genius specifically to make us easier to enslave and extract from. It will take a multi-faceted approach to make a dent in the enemy's defenses.

Lastly, yes I am focusing on my (US) society. Gotta start somewhere. And we are well-positioned to have global impact.

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You're wrong, but I don't have time to explain why.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Oh no problem!

I explain it by myself later on. But I have a little time left to explain why you are wrong, @docpaul.

Basically in your posting about what is hamful for society you've started the standard model showing the right of a small elite to steal the peoples money. You've done it by whipping off a set of classic wild cards, beloved tools in the meritocracy's bluff.

  • Shrink society into a class of 30.
  • Tell 'em you are not talking about black and white.
  • Talk about socialism and capitalism instead.
  • Avoid the the terms conscience, Enlightenment, oligarchy and feudalism.
  • Avoid the the designation of rapacity or greed.
  • Make the spectators believe rich is the same as wise. Just substitute lazy and rich with.
  • Show how freedom is lost by stopping the greed. But for heaven's sake don't call it greed!

A class of 30 doesn't show the complexity of a whole system of 300 Mill. people at all. Yes I know, you know it. This model doesn't work even when you sweep some dropping zeros under the table. It is the first mistake, and not one guy should follow you by this everlasting unauthorized simplification.

Making nice little mental models by picking out lables like socialism and capitalism, is a very good trick too, guiding the truth into the direction of your hidden selfish apology. Your own believes are always guided by your particular interests. No doubt about. Mine too. But we are not facing just social problems with rich on one side and poor on the other. We are are facing problems with a small group which takes it all, including the whole sphere, and leaving the majority of people feeded by handouts. Do you feel it Doc? How wrong you are.

It has been always the word and in the beginnig there has been the word only. You know how the game works. Excuse me when I doesn't ram reality into your happy little system of boxes and labelism. But you should know it: shrinking a complex society into the brave ones and the rotten lazy ones is also a battered old hat like deviding people to control them. Society has gone along confidently since the days of Enlightement (at least the french revolution) and lately since hippies occured on the plan, you have to deal with people not believing your little tricky linguistic prestidigitator games any more.

"But we are not facing just social problems with rich on one side and poor on the other. We are are facing problems with a small group which takes it all, including the whole sphere, and leaving the majority of people fed by handouts." Agreed. The reason why the small group of elites are SO much wealthier/more powerful is a lack of education/development of intelligence in the general population. And the reason that we are failing at that is because of socialistic aspects of our society such as "welfare," public education, and insurance of every type. Damage being done by the "food," medicine/"health care," and alcohol industries amplifies the problem.

As for conscience, that is a nice pipe dream but it's not even remotely necessary for the optimization of a society. Incentive. IN-CEN-TIVE. Basic human behavior. A higher (and appropriately so) value of intelligence will naturally fall into place when we aggressively minimize every socialistic aspect of our society.

"It has been always the word and in the beginning there has been the word only." Are you referring to the Bible here? Honestly Christians are SO FUCKING DUMB. They have 90% of all of the most important things figured out perfectly, yet they hang on to a shitty, unsubstantial 10% which alienates the masses and weakens their credibility. All of this just to maintain "power." Idiots.

"A class of 30 doesn't show the complexity of a whole system of 300 Mill. people at all." Shrinking to a size of 30 (actually, 5) demonstrates that even in a small group socialism is a problem. However, in a small group there are inherent mechanisms that can deal with these problems to an extent. The mechanisms become significantly less-effective even at a class size of 30, and futile at 300 or 300 million.

Should I draw you a picture?

socialism is just getting rid of private property. The most common form includes getting exactly what you produce...... please read up on it before you make a post

Let's just assume you're right. I suppose you read up on stuff so much that you have a different word to use in place of "socialistic." I'd ask you what the word was if it was even remotely important. Let's substitute "mistakenism" for socialism above. The group project analogy demonstrates mistakenistic qualities, and it is clear that mistakenism is ultimately harmful when applied to anything beyond a Very small scale. There are several aspects of society in the U.S. which are mistakenistic. If we can agree that mistakenism is bad, it simplifies the strategy for improving many other aspects of society (minimize mistakenism). Let me guess, you are a big fan of mistakenism?

can you please say that again but not retarded?
I've read up on many political and economic ideologies and the leftist ones are the ones I support the most.....

You most support the leftist "political and economic ideologies" and yet presume to identify something as "retarded?" That's very funny. I assume that if you agree with those ideologies, You are a special kind of retarded. But I'll gladly refrain from such childish and unproductive comments if you'd care to discuss one (any) specific portion of the leftist ideology.