Against Intellectual Monopoly - Chapter 1

in steem •  8 years ago 


In late 1764, while repairing a small Newcomen steam engine, the idea of allowing steam to expand and condense in separate containers sprang into the mind of James Watt. He spent the next few months in unceasing labor building a model of the new engine. In 1768, after a series of improvements and substantial borrowing, he applied for a patent on the idea. August found Watt in London about the patent and he spent another six months working hard to obtain it.

The patent was finally awarded in January of the following year. Nothing much happened by way of production until 1775. Then, with a major effort supported by his business partner, the rich industrialist Matthew Boulton, Watt secured an Act of Parliament extending his patent until the year 1800. The great statesman Edmund Burke spoke eloquently in Parliament in the name of economic freedom and against the creation of unnecessary monopoly – but to no avail. The connections of Watt’s partner Boulton were too solid to be defeated by simple principle.

Once Watt’s patents were secured and production started, a substantial portion of his energy was devoted to fending off rival inventors. In 1782, Watt secured an additional patent, made “necessary in consequence of ... having been so unfairly anticipated, by [Matthew] Wasborough in the crank motion.” More dramatically, in the 1790s, when the superior Hornblower engine was put into production, Boulton and Watt went after him with the full force of the legal system. During the period of Watt’s patents the U.K. added about 750 horsepower of steam engines per year. In the thirty years following Watt’s patents, additional horsepower was added at a rate of more than 4,000 per year. Moreover, the fuel efficiency of steam engines changed little during the period of Watt’s patent; while between 1810 and 1835 it is estimated to have increased by a factor of five.

After the expiration of Watt’s patents, not only was there an explosion in the production and efficiency of engines, but steam power came into its own as the driving force of the industrial revolution. Over a thirty year period steam engines were modified and improved as crucial innovations such as the steam train, the steamboat and the steam jenny came into wide usage. The key innovation was the high-pressure steam engine – development of which had been blocked by Watt’s strategic use of his patent.

Many new improvements to the steam engine, such as those of William Bull, Richard Trevithick, and Arthur Woolf, became available by 1804: although developed earlier these innovations were kept idle until the Boulton and Watt patent expired. None of these innovators wished to incur the same fate as Jonathan Hornblower.

Ironically, not only did Watt use the patent system as a legal cudgel with which to smash competition, but his own efforts at developing a superior steam engine were hindered by the very same patent system he used to keep competitors at bay. An important limitation of the original Newcomen engine was its inability to deliver a steady rotary motion. The most convenient solution, involving the combined use of the crank and a flywheel, relied on a method patented by James Pickard, which prevented Watt from using it. Watt also made various attempts at efficiently transforming reciprocating into rotary motion, reaching, apparently, the same solution as Pickard. But the existence of a patent forced him to contrive an alternative less efficient mechanical device, the “sun and planet” gear. It was only in 1794, after the expiration of Pickard’s patent that Boulton and Watt adopted the economically and technically superior crank. The impact of the expiration of his patents on Watt’s empire may come as a surprise. As might be expected, when the patents expired “many establishments for making steam-engines of Mr. Watt's principle were then commenced.” However, Watt’s competitors “principally aimed at...cheapness rather than excellence.” As a result, we find that far from being driven out of business “Boulton and Watt for many years afterwards kept up their price and had increased orders.”

In fact, it is only after their patents expired that Boulton and Watt really started to manufacture steam engines. Before then their activity consisted primarily of extracting hefty monopolistic royalties. Independent contractors produced most of the parts, and Boulton and Watt merely oversaw the assembly of the components by the purchasers.

In most histories, James Watt is a heroic inventor, responsible for the beginning of the industrial revolution. The facts above suggest an alternative interpretation. Watt is one of many clever inventors working to improve steam power in the second half of the eighteenth century. After getting one step ahead of the pack, he remained ahead not by superior innovation, but by superior exploitation of the legal system. The fact that his business
partner was a wealthy man with strong connections in Parliament, was not a minor help.

Was Watt’s patent a crucial incentive needed to trigger his inventive genius, as the traditional history suggests? Or did his use of the legal system to inhibit competition set back the industrial revolution by a decade or two? More broadly, is the system of intellectual property – patents and copyrights – with all of its many faults, a necessary evil we must put up with to enjoy the fruits of invention and creativity? Or is it an unnecessary evil, a relic of an earlier time when governments routinely granted monopolies to favored courtiers? That is the question we seek to answer.

In the specific case of Watt, the granting of the 1769 and especially of the 1775 patents likely delayed the mass adoption of the steam engine: innovation was stifled until his patents expired; and few steam engines were built during the period of Watt’s legal monopoly. From the number of innovations that occurred immediately after the expiration of the patent, it appears that Watt’s competitors simply waited until then before releasing their own innovations. Also, we see that Watt’s inventive skills were badly allocated: we find him spending more time engaged in legal action to establish and preserve his monopoly than he did in the actual improvement and production of his engine. From a strictly economic point of view Watt did not need such a long lasting patent – it is estimated that by 1783 – seventeen years before his patent expired – his enterprise had already broken even. Indeed, even after their patent expired, Boulton and Watt were able to maintain a substantial premium over the market by virtue of having been first, despite the fact that their competitors had had thirty years to learn how to make steam engines.

The wasteful effort to suppress competition and obtain special privileges is referred to by economists as rent-seeking behavior. History and common sense show it to be a poisoned fruit of legal monopoly. Watt’s attempt to extend the duration of his 1769 patent is an especially egregious example of rent seeking: the patent extension was clearly unnecessary to provide incentive for the original invention, which had already taken place. On top of this, we see Watt using patents as a tool to suppress innovation by his competitors, such as Hornblower, Wasborough and others. Hornblower’s engine is a perfect case in point: it was a substantial improvement over Watt’s as it introduced the new concept of the “compound engine” with more than one cyclinder. This, and not the Boulton and Watt design, was the basis for further steam engine development after their patents expired.

However, because Hornblower built on the earlier work of Watt, making use of his “separate condenser” Boulton and Watt were able to block him in court and effectively put an end to steam engine development. The monopoly over the “separate condenser,” a useful innovation, blocked the development of another equally useful innovation, the “compound engine,” thereby retarding economic growth. This retardation of innovation is a classical case of what we shall refer to as IP-inefficiency. Finally, there is the slow rate at which the steam engine was adopted before the expiration of Watt’s patent. By keeping prices high and preventing others from producing cheaper or better steam engines, Boulton and Watt hampered capital accumulation and slowed economic growth.

The story of James Watt is a damaging case for the benefits of a patent system, but we shall see that it is not an unusual story. A new idea accrues almost by chance to the innovator while he is carrying out a routine activity aimed at a completely different end. The patent comes many years after that and it is due more to a mixture of legal acumen and abundant resources available to “oil the gears of fortune” than anything else. Finally, after the patent protection is obtained, it is primarily used as a tool to prevent economic progress and hurt competitors.

While this view of Watt’s role in the industrial revolution may appear iconoclastic, it is neither new nor particularly original. Frederic Scherer, a prestigious academic supporter of the patent system, after going through the details of the Boulton and Watt story, concluded his 1986 examination of their story with the following illuminating words:

Had there been no patent protection at all,…Boulton and Watt certainly would have been forced to follow a business policy quite different from that which they actually followed. Most of the firm’s profits were derived from royalties on the use of engines rather than from the sale of manufactured engine components, and without patent protection the firm plainly could not have collected royalties. The alternative would have been to emphasize manufacturing and service activities as the principal source of profits, which in fact was the policy adopted when the expiration date of the patent for the separate condenser drew near in the late 1790s…. It is possible to conclude more definitely that the patent litigation activities of Boulton & Watt during the 1790s did not directly incite further technological progress…. Boulton and Watt’s refusal to issue licenses allowing other engine makers to employ the separate-condenser principle clearly retarded the development and introduction of improvements.

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I just made my first 2 posts back this afternoon after my week off on my #SteemitStrike.

It is nice to see a post from you Dan.

This post reminds me A LOT of what Tesla (Nikola, not Elon Musk for those reading hahaha) -- went through in his life, almost to a T-- with the people, powers and others suppressing him -- it is a shame.

He is one of my heroes and like you said -- a case file unto it (him) -- self.

All the best Dan.


My posts today may interest you - one is an interview with Roger Ver where I pick out the snippet where he states he owns DASH masternodes, and then one of my milestone community posts.

It is nice to see you in the feed. (:

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Also @dantheman check out this
http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/
It's all open source, no ip, COLD FUSION, LENR :D

Too bad that my comments are getting hit, why not talk about it frystikken instead of flagging a poor minnow? What do you hope to accomplish with this?
I think @fyrstikken is mad and has begun his flag attack because he has helped me oust him for what he is, an epic troll:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@stonedfood/captain-blue-beard-of-the-good-ship-steemit#@baah/re-baah-re-fyrstikken-re-baah-re-fyrstikken-re-baah-re-stonedfood-captain-blue-beard-of-the-good-ship-steemit-20170318t135532969z

You realize that this behavior of flagging my comments for no reason other than you being mad at the truth and my pointing out your actions as evil/wrong/immoral is only driving the stake down even more proving you don't care about doing what's right and therefore when you post @krnel's posts about standing up for what is right and recognizing what is immoral you are solidifying my assertion that you are just a hypocrite and don't value those virtues. People will still reveal my comments because most everyone loves a mystery and second they can clearly see there is nothing flag worthy about them which will continue to reveal what a petty, insecure troll you are. Didn't you claim you don't care if I slander you and that you're open to talk about these "groundless accusations"? As if your word means anything.

hmmmmmmm.PNG

The concept of the patent system is sound - if you took the time and effort to invent something, you should have the opportunity to profit from it.

This is to stop people stealing someone's idea and selling it as their own while the inventor basically gets shafted.

As with so many things, it's good on paper, not so good when you add people into the mix. It is now a system that is abused and misused to control money and power.

It is a lawyer's fantasy land - free money.

What would have happened if instead of Watt and his 'competitors' being protectionist, they were collaborative?

You could still own the patents and the rights to the technology, but not hoard them.

I think it is less that the patent system is wrong, or broken. It's more that people are broken - greed has taken hold and it trumps common sense and collaborative work.

Fix that, allow the sharing of technology, voluntarily, while still allowing the inventor's to retain ownership for their creativity, and then you have a potential for some seriously good things to happen.

A system is broken if it doesn't account for real people problems. Read the book and you will see that the very concept of ip is flawed, not just the implementation.

You can't own ideas. The idea of "intellectual property" necessitates the violation of real property rights in scarce physical goods. If I build a gizmo, but someone else says, "You can't do that because the idea is mine," my real property rights have been violated.

If I write a book, compose a song, what's to stop you from taking that and making money off it?

If you build a gizmo you have the right to sell it or not. If someone comes and takes your gizmo without your permission and sells it, that's theft. You would be upset about that.

Even worse - if you made a gizmo and it was the best gizmo. this is the gizmo that is finally going to lift your family out of poverty. You are finally going to be able to live the life you want to live. you show it to your neighbour, full of pride that you will finally succeed.

Two days later your neighbour starts a company manufacturing and selling your gizmo. He makes a bundle of money. You make none. You missed the market. Yours is not the 'original' gizmo so no-one wants your gizmo.

The argument that you can't own ideas is interesting. 'Ideas' is a bit broad and a bit mis-leading I think. While the patent system is certainly misused to lock concepts and ideas down for future profit, when I talk about intellectual property, i'm talking about things like writing, music, art, invention - things that are made via hard work, talent, insight.

The use of the patent system to protect the inventor / artist and allow them the time to profit from their efforts, I think is appropriate.

The use of the patent system for investment, protectionism and speculation, is wholly inappropriate. This is what is stifling innovation and preventing cool things from happening.

The difference between our views is this:

My view is that I get to decide who uses my invention and what that use is worth to me.
Your view is you get to use my invention for free and I have no say in the matter.

As a creative person, you can see why I prefer my view ;-)

If I write a book, compose a song, what's to stop you from taking that and making money off it?

Nothing. And that's a good thing.

If you build a gizmo you have the right to sell it or not. If someone comes and takes your gizmo without your permission and sells it, that's theft. You would be upset about that.

Yes, because depriving me of real scarce property is theft. Copying is not theft. Value is subjective, and cannot be considered an inherent attribute of any object.

Even worse - if you made a gizmo and it was the best gizmo. this is the gizmo that is finally going to lift your family out of poverty. You are finally going to be able to live the life you want to live. you show it to your neighbour, full of pride that you will finally succeed. Two days later your neighbour starts a company manufacturing and selling your gizmo. He makes a bundle of money. You make none. You missed the market. Yours is not the 'original' gizmo so no-one wants your gizmo.

This doesn't happen. Like, ever. Even if it did, no real harm has been done. If he can reverse-engineer the gizmo and manufacture it over such a short time span, that's HIS PROPERTY and HIS GENIUS.

The argument that you can't own ideas is interesting. 'Ideas' is a bit broad and a bit mis-leading I think. While the patent system is certainly misused to lock concepts and ideas down for future profit, when I talk about intellectual property, i'm talking about things like writing, music, art, invention - things that are made via hard work, talent, insight.

The use of the patent system to protect the inventor / artist and allow them the time to profit from their efforts, I think is appropriate.

Opinion is not argument. The sales pitch justifying wrongdoing is not an argument. The fact is, the patent system enriches the corporate fat cats and has been designed for that purpose from the beginning. It bankrupts the small players who try to use it, and bankrupts the innovators who can't lawyer p to protect themselves from fraudulent or abusive IP claims.

if you took the time and effort to invent something, you should have the opportunity to profit from it.

Well, you have. You can make profits perfectly fine without any patents. If you invent something, you are first on the market and you have a big advantage.

This is to stop people stealing someone's idea and selling it as their own while the inventor basically gets shafted.

Most of the ideas are not really original. A lot of people will come up with the same idea. It's really unfair to give a monopoly right to use the idea on the markets only for one of them.

That sounds reasonable - except when you look at who is doing a bunch of innovation (in my country). In many cases this is done in a garage with the inventor putting in countless hours and their own money into it.

A large corporate has the funds, means and market to take their idea and get it built tomorrow. In which case the inventor gets nothing because they don't have the ability to get their product to market as easily.

What you end up with is the corporations strip mining inventors, leaving them with no opportunity to profit from their innovation, time effort, insight.

This leads to two options

  • don't bother with the effort to invent unless you are already part of a large corporate, because you are always going to get screwed
  • or do everything in super secret until you have completed the entire setup of manufacturing, marketing etc.

This completely stifles collaboration.

I go back to my previous statement that this has become about protectionism and greed, instead of a way of ensuring that those who invent something have a change to profit fro their efforts.

If I hold the patent on something - blockchain technology for example. That doesn't stop you from using that technology, or deriving from it.

You can come and ask me if you can use it and we can sort out a deal that allows you to do that. And / or you can look at how that works, gain insights of your own, leapfrog my development cycle and create something far in advance of where I am.

The problem is the mindset of Mine! You can't have it!

Dan,

I'm so happy to see you posting!

I know I should comment on the post, but I just want you to know how grateful I am to you personally, to what you have done, what you aim to do.

If you ever need anything please feel free to send me a message.

I really hope to see you post more often.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Flagged due to this being an essentially unattributed copy of other people's work. You do link to it at the end, but it's not clear to readers that this is not your work. This is plagiarism.

EDIT: Also, tag abuse.

He did link to the source at the end, and the tags to apply to the debate over the Steem source code license status.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Congratulations on being so petty. Perhaps you can find something more constructive to do than just being an ass.

:) here we are, I think the above post will suit you more than him, check George clips above :) maybe even some argument on why property and opinions don't quite match up and shouldn't. One should be earned the other simply is there, floating around, unless used properly.

Link, Book Title, and actual author probably should have come first @dantheman.

EDIT: Also, tag abuse.

?

Using the steem tag for something not directly related to Steem. Dan has flagged people for exactly that in the past.

I thought at the time it was the #steemit tag. People were posting things that had nothing to do with #steemit. On the other hand, this is an analogy very much related to an ongoing situation related to #steem, or more specifically, the intellectual property thereof.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I don't remember if he ever specifically downvoted based on the steem tag, so fair enough. I don't really care about 'tag abuse' currently anyway, as the UI for tags makes it not very usable. If I were to care about tag abuse I would have downvoted a ton of posts over it as such abuse undermined a couple of initiatives I was trying to support such as TIL. Hopefully the upcoming communities feature will be a better way to organize discussions on a particular topic.

This post does appear to be directly related to the Steem ecosystem.

is this even the real dan?

Id guess it is, but that is a reasonable question

sorry to make a snarky remark, but what if he said, this goes for the steemit license and how it concerns steem :D I though that was implied :) true indirectly, but should this be categorized as "steam patent intellectualproperty book spam" sounds very strange after the flags have voted their opinion on the post :|

Probably means the #steem tag. It doesn't apply explicitly to this post.

I'm going to use my hate speech for you rather than flag you, :) , now go back and face your fears, because I have already disemboweled all your "arguments". Hook or your opinion will carry 0 weight if any because you haven't earned my respect, source article below :) now for the "hate speech" it's not tag abuse if you count in the context fella :) symbols are for the symbol minded.


George Carlin on ((( American ))) Foreign Policy ~ Bombing Brown People

"Argument" started at "My rant on the millenial left..by schattenjaeger" because he made totally unreasonable claims and left!!! I don't like leaving stones unturned :| so he didn't argue his statements and he never will.I will correct my opinion of you, dear @ bacchist sorry for the bad opinion I have of you, you have contributed to the community, but my respect is earned. Not in Power, but in truth.

For anyone interested in more George, George Carlin: How language is used to mask truth and Israeli terrorism

I already shared this picture once in a post about your resignation when I found out more about what was going on in regards to all that, and figured I'd just post it again once here as well. I support and respect your sentiments for more freedom.

hehp89t1P2LvHKtPZ9QRdSSJoserF38iLyyDe8_1680x8400.jpg

The Wright Brothers similarly impeded aviation progress in the US between 1903 and WW1 while Europe was free to experiment and improve aircraft design.

I suggest adding the "history" tag to this post!

good one, I hope dan can get past the little children running amuck with big guns :D I hope we can add that to the history too :|

Good to see you are still sharing your thoughts with us on steemit, Dan.

There is a newer version of the book, you might want to link to that: http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm

I also like this book very much. It had a lot of influence on my thinking, too.

From a popular TV series in UK called Alan Partridge, good to see you back

I really enjoyed this as a history of James Watt that certainly in Scotland you do not hear. I also enjoyed the parallels i could draw with the subject :0D

I hope you are doing well Dan. Nice to see you on here as a civilian!

"A study by Laband and John Sophocleus in 1988 estimated that rent-seeking had decreased total income in the USA by 45 percent." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
U5duC4s5g66E5u5AYwibt267BFgFGZx.gif

Regarding your resignation from Steemit:

I think that now when you don't have any official role in the development, you can actually write much more freely. You can discuss different topics without causing any controversies because people can't interpret what you are saying to something that could potentially damage Steem (or Bitshares).

well here we are 50 flags later :D non-controvesrial at it's finest, I think people just like to pick on the powerful so far it's not about the post it's about dan. I haven't seen anybody making such pointless arguments. Sure is fun seeing a nice post go from 200 to 000, people either don't value what he has given us or value their stupidity more :| I'm actually starting to admire his tenacity :D I hope he is above and beyond the, payouts and the reactions from certain people here and there.

This book is amazing.
Having stumbled into the IP world by sheer accident it was very important for me to be able to defend my anti-IP stance within the music world. But after reading the book you realize IP is not just a slight hinderance to progress, it's one of THEE biggest factors preventing the freedom and prosperity of humanity.
IP law such as the DMCA has been used for countless horrible things that have nothing to do with protecting innovation, innovators and the arts.
Without IP, the internet would already look much more like the distributed web crypto/P2P projects are working on today and would look nothing like the current government agencies surveillance tool.

It's good to have you here. Please do not abondo this platform. We need you here .

And please share with us what else you will be doing.

Hello @dantheman, great to see you share with us this very interesting vision of the past making the future !! I think in the future people will read of you like Watt, the builders and inventers which shape our world !! Of your visionary understanding of the future of decentralised peer to peer ecomomic exchange and the tools required for this dream to be reality, this I am sure is recognized already by all in this community !! Enjoyed immensely this great and interesting read !! Steem On with your Dreams of the future we indeed all will share )

Thank you for posting @dantheman.

Looking forward to reading this and to analysing how it correlates to the here and now.

All the best to you and yours. Cheers.

Many new improvements to the steam engine, such as those of William Bull, Richard Trevithick, and Arthur Woolf, became available by 1804: although developed earlier these innovations were kept idle until the Boulton and Watt patent expired. None of these innovators wished to incur the same fate as Jonathan Hornblower.

It's true that men with guns can suppress innovation. It's too bad they didn't at least have an uncensorable platform to publish on.

Hey comrade @dantheman! Maybe I can teach you how to be a good Dictator, it is the best solution. As far as I can remember I never had problems with the Intellectual Monopoly ... everything was mine.
Revolutionary greetings!
"El Comandate"

Patents are sold to the public as helping and protecting the inventor.
However, in Don Lancaster's words, Nothing is a larger waste of time and money for the inventor then the patent system.

Don Lancaster had a open prize (IIRC it was all his books and some article space) for anyone independent inventor that showed they had made money from a patent. Don has a filing cabinet of horror stories, and I believe 2 sortas, and 1 maybe (but he lost his job).

A patent doesn't protect the inventor. A patent is only a right to sue. And I know tons of expert witnesses who bust patents on a regular basis. So, the inventor, in the end, pays for a useless piece of paper, and then pays again for a useless court case.

Thanks for continuing to share your thoughts with us.

I have been awaiting your posts. Welcome back. Yes the refined system of Governmental Corporatist Legalise interference has a long history.

We need your posts. Stay around and steem on.

lol, nice one Dan! Love to see you posting!

This seem's like it will be a good read ill take the time out to read it over this week end. Thank you for the share and continuing to share with us its good to see you just haven't went into the shadows after your departure of this projects like most do who leave.

There are some practical problems.

What if I just have the idea but not the wherewithal to put it into production? I would like to sell the idea, but without a patent, I have nothing to seel; I can't even safely explain what I'm selling for fear of the idea being taken over without renumeration.

How, as a photographer, can I sell a limited series of prints when there is no copyright that prevents others from multiplying my photos as they see fit?

Without the patent, why have nothing to sell? I call BS. The most vibrant fields right now are those not hampered by IP constraints. IP guarantees stagnation and wasted money creating unnecessary workarounds because of legality. It hamstrings those with real innovative capacity by preventing them from working toward real progress. An open market of ideas allows everyone to benefit. Stop focusing in your one idea you can't control adn see all the opportunity that would be available when all ideas are open to everyone. The decentralized innovative power of individuals working together on distributed ideas benefits everyone.

You are repeating general arguments, not responding to my question.

You can call BS until the cows come home, but you still haven't explained what I would have to sell when all I have is an idea, and how to go about it without a patent.

Implement the idea better than anyone else. be first to market. Do it well enough that competition can't threaten you. Or else don't. But using the violence of government against others and their real property is not justified if you can't.

What if I don't have what it takes to implement the idea, but just the idea? Is revenue from an idea only for those who can implement it, or those who can find an honest partner who can implement it? Is the idea on its own without value then? And if it isn't, how can I get rewarded for the idea on its own without a patent to sell or share?

Patents don't promise revenue or success either, they only give governmental permission to sue other people. There are innumerable models people have developed to answer your question, so I'm afraid the best I can do is offer a e-book link ad tell you that yes, an idea on its own is without value until someone can implement it. You don't own other people, and have no authority to dictate how they may implement ideas.

So, an idea is without value without somebody to implement it? Really? Ideas are bought and sold all the time before implementation, so they have a value on their own by definition; a value set by the market.

Idealism is great, but there are bills to pay and food to buy. If there were a universal income, I would agree with you, but how does one make sure one gets a reward for an idea when somebody else implements it? And no, I don't get to dictate how people implement my ideas, but I do get to dictate if, when, and at what price people get to implement my ideas; they are mine, after all, and I have to eat. Patents may not be the best way to go about it, but ideas with value need some protection against the dishonest people out there when they are a person's source of income.

Beyond that: more generalities. You have learned other people's theories by heart well, but answering a concrete question seems to be beyond you. Why do you answer with a link to other people's theories in stead of doing some reasoning of your own?

nice....

Nice posting, glad to see you keep steem on !

so glad to see you posting dan! :) cheers!

Hmm. Property - nice word, but what does it mean?
what is your own stand on this?

Do you want to protect property or do you not want to protect property?
And what do you define as property?

Is a Patent not a property of the guy who put time and money into it? And should not the inventor earn his royalties like the musician enjoys his royalties for the music they play on the radio, tv or youtube?

Copy right is just as invalid. Patents are not property and in fact violate physical property rights. IP is a contradiction.

Ok, so let us take this steam-engine example. Instead of trying to copy/paste use the steam-engine technology, why did they not (the competitors) work on inventing a better engine that did not run on coal heated water & steam, like for example the combustion-engine, the jet-engine, diesel or even crude-oil or whale-oil engines?

It seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong - that the focus on the steam-engine stalled innovation in other engine areas for a very long time... And yeah, there are patents in the combustion engine department as well, so for a long time competitors designed different ways of using petrol-based engines...

And that went on for a while, now it is hydrogene driven engines that are being developed, and we have development in electric storage (tesla motors, etc.) and I believe for a while competitors will copy/paste what they can from those developments instead of focusing on other engine types.

If you take the entire visible and invisible spectrum of frequencies and a full periodic table of elements to play with, it seems to me that if competitors really want to compete, they should innovate something new instead of copy something old.

Why reinvent the wheel when all you want to do is improve it? Why should people stand in the way of progress because of a "legal privilege" that in fact violates the real property rights of others?

Suggested reading: Against Intellectual Property, by IP attorney Stephan Kinsella: https://mises.org/library/against-intellectual-property-0

Let me think about it for a couple of days. I like this debate, but I do not want to rush into conclusions without looking at the bigger picture of things.

Thank you both for the nice conversation, keep me posted :)

Understandable. It is a complicated issue, and I did not arrive at my current beliefs on the subject without considerable time and thought.

Agreed. No idea was conceived without previous ones that it's built upon. Now businessmen are even trying to patent genes that were discovered from nature's creations. Truly absurd and sad.

What do you think should we make of Robert Kearns' case? (I haven't found a philosophical stand on IP yet)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns

Flash of Genius Official Trailer

Flagged for being copy-paste and plagiarism (the later since it is unclear that the poster is not the author, in fact it is clear from some of the comments that actual confusion has occurred). I don't really care about tag abuse as tags are currently mostly useless, but it would be that too.

Why do you say ''tags are currently mostly useless''? I would tend to disagree because I use them on a daily basis when I want to know everything that comes out on a specific hot topic on Steemit such as, for example, #pizzagate, #vault7, #wikileaks...

I stand corrected. They were useless based on my experience trying to use them in the past, but somewhat differently. For high volume tags people tend to put them in whenever there is the remotest connection and it isn't a good way to find content. But I can see where, for specific narrow topics it does work. Thanks for sharing your experience.

one thing I would like to add, if you add in the context of the past 2-3 days, the talks around dan were the license of Steem and the license of it. SO it is related and context matters. I'm not seeing the point in flagging good content.

I've just read all the comments didn't see anyone saying "Congratulations on your book dan" being ecstatic that he's posting and hasn't given up completely is one thing,

Flagged for being copy-paste and plagiarism (the later since it is unclear that the poster is not the author, in fact it is clear from some of the comments that actual confusion has occurred).

And I can't see neither "by Michele Boldrin and David K. Levine" on steemit :) With,

Currently Levine is working with Salvatore Modica and others on political institutions, evolutionary models of the state, and the formation and organization of interest groups.

I agree that dan hasn't stated he didn't write the book, but he hasn't said he did either, and it shouldn't be his responsibility people get confused because they can get to the end of a post.

As it stands his mistake was not copy pasting the begging line of the chapter, "Boldrin & Levine: Against Intellectual Monopoly, Chapter 1" but seeing that the authors and the book is on intellectual property, I wouldn't say the exposure brought from someone supporting their views, would be bad, hell why not imagine the 200$(that were here when I saw the post) here go to the authors as a small tip :) why not fight for that then to be the next steem cleaner :)

I can just say I'm happy that dan has found the decline payout button :P getting on your guy's trigger fingers :D


On a more personal note about tags, yeah the UI can use a MAJOR improvement, are you up for ideas, I'm thinking of making a post that gets updated weekly with proposed changes, much like the steemtools, but more closely monitored(since much of what is there is outdated) and yeah weekly reports of the ideas and the implementation maybe, the tags could be a major benefit if we use them correctly. so far few haven't had much luck, maybe with the challenge30 started by dragos being the only time they were partially useful. I agree that they are mostly used towards exposure and vaguely contribute on the topic, currently everyone is using steemit because it's the most used tag, steem because we all use that as a currency :| so the vaguesness is endless.

So how about you whale people start working together, please, the divides aren't helping we need you we need ned, we need everybody to get together and start working alongside one another :) at least that is how I see it in my pink eyeglasses. Sadly even the guy with the pink glasses doesn't see that as a reality :|

I too stand corrected, this post might be worth a major flag, but personally I wouldn't because it's ned and he doesn't post every day. Plus he gave us the flags :D

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Copy pasting in general is discouraged. Im not saying there is a hard rule, but linking is better IMO. When combined with the fact that it isn't clearly attributed the result is poor. As far Dan, I respect his contributions, but he left, and despite promising not to post or vote any more, he is doing both. Why not just move on to his next project without drama and leave us do what we have to do without him? To come back and stir up shit is just disruptive. I'm not saying I'm going to automatically flag him every time but I'm sure not going to give him the benefit of the doubt on ignoring community standards of behavior when his very presence here is: a) showing that he can't be trusted to follow through with what he says he is going to do (or in this case not do), and b) disruptive.

After writing my comment, I saw you UI comment above. I think the tag system could get much better. Not sure if when I read the word roadmap on Steemit, people are talking about things like homepage, menus, search engine and other UI related stuff, but I sure know the tags are not easy to find. That is if they are not among the trending ones.

He linked to the source at the end of the post. The tags refer to this concept as it relates to Steem and Steemit alike. It's no huge mental leap to see the obvious connection.

Thank you for the article. Mainstream media would never let us know that . I'm so glad Steemit exists.

It's unbelievable that you are still active here. Good to see you again.

Hi Dan. Just want to let you know, that I wrote a fiction story about you and your possible future: 2027: Dan Larimer, inventor of blockchain-based AI, first person to receive both the Nobel Prize for Economics and the Turing Award, has just invented Warp Drive at SpaceX!

It will be my pleasure if you will find time to read it. I hope, you will enjoy it :)

I read this interesting essay about 2 years ago. Not so different from other similar stances on that topic, but with some very uptodate parts. Mostly agreeable but utopian.

Thanks information..
@dantheman

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I read this book, too. It was fantastic. I am pleasantly surprised to find an excerpt here.

I'll read what you posted later this week and I'll give the rest of the book a try probably this week too. Thanks!