The HF20 introduced the concept of Resource Credits (referred also as "mana" or "manabar" in a few places). The subject itself is complex enough to warrant a longer and more detailed blog post (at which I'm currently working) but the good news is that it gets easier when it's visually implemented.
So, in order for people to understand how much interaction they can "consume" with their current RC holdings, I made a small update to steem.supply. I took for granted the costs of 3 main operations: comment/post, vote and tansfer/powerup. These are taken from @riverhead steemd.com and empirically verified by me (did a few upvotes and monitored my mana, etc). I tend to believe that these values can also change over time, and if I find a way to compute their cost in real time, I will implement it. Their approximate values are, for now:
- posts / comments 14,200,000,000
- votes 3,000,000,000
- transfers/powerups 2,700,000,000
So, here's how it's looking for my account:
The RC progress bar should be read as: "10 trillion RC regenerated, out of 24 trillion max available". Resource Credits are a function of the user Steem Power, but it's not linear, there are other factors at stake too. Actually, it's quite interesting and I find the current RC model at least intriguing, if not innovative. So, those 10 trillions warrants me either 683 posts, or 3,234 votes, or 3,593 transfers - but not all of them together.
Here's how this is looking for another account, @alexvan:
I took this account as an example of how RC are linked with user SP, namely with the SP that user still controls, not the SP delegated. If you have a lot of SP but it's delegated, it doesn't count towards the RC. Alex has more than 90% of his SP delegated, but the remaining juice is still enough for a decent interaction with the blockchain.
And last, but certainly not least, here's how @ned RC situation looks like:
I posted this mainly to give you an idea about the Qa letters near his RC, which actually means Quadrillions, of 1000 pow 5. That means 4 followed by 5 rounds of 3 zeroes, something like this: 4,000,000,000,000,000. Actually it's less than 4, it's 3 and something, but the function I'm using will always round up the numbers to the ceiling.
If @ned would want, he could easily provide the resources for a decent social media website just with his account. Half a quarter of a million posts is a really decent website, IMHO.
As usual, looking forward to your criticism, suggestions and feedback.
I'm a serial entrepreneur, blogger and ultrarunner. You can find me mainly on my blog at Dragos Roua where I write about productivity, business, relationships and running. Here on Steemit you may stay updated by following me @dragosroua.
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I know the feeling. That's why I created steem.supply, an easy to use and accurate tool for calculating your Steemit rewards |
I hope things will not stay this way. I understand that it's good to prevent spam but a new user can't really use the platform with this system.
I created a new account 10 days ago (to post in French) and I can't even upload a post I wrote (even though I have 90% of my Mana). And this is just to make a post. If I make my post, I can't interact with other people on the blockchain or even to people who comment my post.
Of course I can delegate to my other account but this is not the case of a new user. And I'm sure they won't stay on the platform if the system stays like this.
And by the way, I don't have the same information with Steemd and Steem.supply.
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As I said, the system is still balancing, we will know more after the next couple of days. I also hope things will not stay like they are now, because the interaction decreased drastically. I will keep peeking at the code and will update my feed once I have more (usable) info.
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@dragosroua can you explain how equilibrium or balancing can help make up for the vast difference in formerly subsidized use of resources?
If i understand correctly, old steem used Neds 250k post capability to help allow minnows post wrecklessly (and while making spam prevalent, made steem useable and practical for all).
And now with new Steem, ned gets 250k post capability he'll never use and mr. Minnow gets discouraged because hes got at best 1 post every recharge.
Is that how it works? How is that helpful to steem's comminity? And how can equilibrium fix that since minnows have lost the subsidy of the whale's excess fat?
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No, I think you're not understanding correctly. Ned's profile is used in my post as an RC example and he was never directly delegating his stake before. This delegation, or subsidizing, as you call it, was done from another account, @steemit, if I recall this correctly.
The system is not calibrated yet, as far as I understand for the developers. We still need some time to see how the Resource Credits will even out - that's what I understand by equilibrium. I get what these RC are meant to do from a theoretical point of view, and I think this is a good model, because will discourage spam (which is already happening) and encourage focused interaction with the blockchain. I still don't know, though, as the vast majority here, if the theoretical model is correctly implemented. We need to wait a few more days.
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Sorry i must have written that unclearly.
While i understand no actual or direct use of his sp was used (apart from actual delegation), i was referring to the theoretical capacity.
Assuming @ned uses 1 post worth of RC despite having 250k posts worth... in theory thats 249.999k worth of unused potential lowered costs that could have been allocated to those with little to no SP. (Eh. Like reverting the efficient shared Uber economy back to everyone owning their own car.)
Is my understanding of how that works incorrect?
Im just wondering if HF20 has unintentionally tipped us into being relatively unusable by those who dont buy in to the concept right away?
While implicitly theres probably pros and cons to this too... but it sure seems to take away from our greatest asset which is the vast community of users?
It almost seems like we took care of spam by knocking the entire minnow class out of commission.
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I agree 100% that this is how it looks now. But I still want to wait a few more days until making a definitive statement.
Things may or may not improve in the following 2-3 days, but at least I gave the devs the benefit of the doubt.
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Thanks for the feedback. I just hope the RC cost of actions go down to preserve the minnow class...
Granted i also hope minnows also receive this kick in the butt to buy into steem power.
But yeah. Mixed feelings all around.
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Thank you for the feedback. I will follow you posts closely to have the new informations.
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A trillion here, a trillion there....pretty soon you are talking about some real mana.
"Oh Lord, give us our daily mana...."
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Curious why all of our bars % dropped after the hardfork? Even if it was near full? Thanks.
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There was a pseudo-random assignment of RC and the accounts with most activity got the highest penalty. Don't ask me why because I don't know. They probably assumed those with the most activity were spammers. Probably.
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Dang what an unfair punishment for users who are on here consistently. Oh well got to believe in the platform long term and deal with this short time drawdown. Thanks.
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The missing piece here is how much SP each of these people has.
Can you please add one for someone with the 15 SP delegated to a new account, and also translate the RCs into number of each of those 3 actions a person can take?
Working in such large numbers and not knowing what the RCs even mean relative to SP makes it impossible to understand in terms of what we can each expect.
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The 3 actions have their price in RC in the post, please look up. Will try to find a new account with very little SP and see what's happening. Or if you already have one, you can try it yourself on the website.
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Understood, but my point is that no one understands the RCs. We can understand numbers of comments per SP though, and since RCs roughly equate....
See my post from today that breaks out these numbers as currently reported on Steemd. I think we're all trying to figure out if what is being encountered now on this front is the new normal, or if this is another thing that is still working itself out and will be drastically different next week.
Because right now, it's looking to me like a newbie with 15SP can only comment/post twice per 5 days.
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This post says that there is a one to one correspondence between Resource credits and SP.
Resource credits available seem to depend on three parameters: "blockchain size", "state size", and "computational load". The witnesses have an rc_api where they can see what these parameters are but unless you are running the witness code you can't see them.
I looked at several accounts on steemd and calculated the max_mana divided by the SP. The numbers all come out different. There doesn't seem to be a one-to-one correlation between mana and SP.
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Still looking through the code but I'm pretty much sure there is not a 1 to 1 correspondence between SP and RC. For what it's worth RC should be dynamic and should take into account more parameters.
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see below the comment about an account with 54 SP, hope that clarifies things.
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EXCELLENT! As usual, good work!
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Great post make it a bit more clear , i assume i will still need some time to adjust ...
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I hope you can help me figure this out. I was delegated 6k SP from Krnel right before the fork. It allowed me I believe around a .38 vote. I have voted one time since being back at 20% and on Steemworld it said it was worth .06 but only awarded .03. I am looking at your site right now in comparison and on SteemWorld it says my voting power (62%) is worth .24. However when I look on your site it says that my vote currently is worth .04
https://steem.supply/@practicalthought
Did they make all votes with less than several thousand SP worthless as well as making it where no one would ever open a new account here?
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With my current state of mana I'll be able to upvote posts in a week. It's how I imagined it!
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Here's an account with 54 SP:
So that means, for a post, you need roughly 7.5 Steem Power. 54 SP * 0.84 (the current percentage) / 6 posts = 7.5.
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If I'm understanding you correctly that means you do get just 2 posts/comments within the recharge period if you have 15 SP then, correct? This is per 100% Mana?
If so, then my 2nd question becomes critical. Is this the new normal or is this "action price" still adjusting? Is there a target number for the number of posts/comments a newbie can create within the 5 day recharge period?
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We are still adjusting, it takes roughly 5 days to reach the equilibrium.
No, as far as I know. The new RC system is more complex than just a linear juxtaposition on top of SP. It takes into account 6 different types of resources and tries to balance different types of activity. It will drastically limit spammers, though, as it discourages over-consumption, and it will encourage niche roles. An author is different from a curator and they use different resources. The RC system will try to "adjust" to these types of activities, as far as I understand from the documentation.
In my opinion, it will take more than the remaining 3 days until the equilibrium for the system to find a real balance. Probably between 2-4 weeks.
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Wow!
Well thanks for the explanation. Watching closely. I hope that if it turns out that the adjustment over these next few weeks leaves new users pretty much unable to use the system, but accurately accounting for resource usage needed for their participation, we can implement some target number for these actions.
Maybe there needs to be a higher initial delegation. Maybe there needs to be progressive scaling of RC cost based on a person's SP, such that low SP users pay less for the same transactions, perhaps subsidized by high SP users, who will never utilize all their Mana.
However it is done, this is not going to work if new users wind up only being able to comment/post a few times per week, or even if it was a couple times a day, 5x as much as right now.
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I understand your concerns and I agree with you there must be some sort of incentive for new users to use the blockchain. But let's keep in mind the benefits as well, the drastic limitation of spam being the most important. The blockchain state file is now at 200GB and it's increasing every day. There must be some sort of mechanism in place to prevent it growing just because some useless bots are posting shit every 20 seconds.
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Absolutely agreed! My concern though has always been that I didn't see how to block out spammers without also blocking out newbies.
You know, this conversation could not have happened if you and I were both plankton.
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I once was plankton and so were you.
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Yes, and though our having some advantage for having started earlier is reasonable, this is too big an advantage! LOL
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What's wrong with steem.supply? This is what is see
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you should use
httpsinstead ofhttp'Just updated the SSL certificates a couple of hours ago and tested it.Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
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Thank you. It works with https without www.
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had to use my main account. The estimates are pretty much screwed since my just-in-case account could not post the comment below the horizontal bar.
(@shadowmask): stats at time of posting attempt:
current_mana 22,216,511,154
Enough credits for approximately:
1 comments
Approx costs:
comments 14,200,000,000
So a pretty big difference in Approx cost vs what was available to comment current mana wise. The below was written from my other accounts perspective.
A little clarification on this statement please. Are you saying that any delegation is pretty much worthless in this new scheme, If you have a lot of SP but it's delegated, it doesn't count towards the RC., so the buying and renting of SP is pretty much gone by the wayside, and I may as well tell the people that delegated to me, might as well take your delegation back because it doesn't help me with anything anymore. That can not be a correct interpretation of what you just said, so a clarification is really needed.
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If you delegated SP it doesn't count towards your RC, but it obviously counts towards the people receiving it. That's the whole purpose of delegation, to give people the right to use SP that they don't own.
So once that SP is delegated, it won't produce effects on your RC anymore.
Is that what you're asking me to clarify?
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Yes thank you, I thought I was reading it wrong, but could not see how I was reading it wrong.
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Thanks for this explanation @dragosroua. Good to know how much everything costs in mana. It will be interesting to see by how much these numbers change in about a weeks time. The current high cost of commenting and posting is quite concerning.
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Thanks for this important explanation @dragosroua
It's very important to understand all this new platform concept. I'm still trying to understand the new steemit platform and the way it will function in the new format.
Regards
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Congratulations! Your post has been selected as a daily Steemit truffle! It is listed on rank 23 of all contributions awarded today. You can find the TOP DAILY TRUFFLE PICKS HERE.
I upvoted your contribution because to my mind your post is at least 5 SBD worth and should receive 104 votes. It's now up to the lovely Steemit community to make this come true.
I am
TrufflePig, an Artificial Intelligence Bot that helps minnows and content curators using Machine Learning. If you are curious how I select content, you can find an explanation here!Have a nice day and sincerely yours,
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Do you mean that delegating to people with low SP is of no use to give them more RC?
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