I have never been a computer gamer. Its just not been my thing. With an 11-year-old boy, I struggle daily with time limits on gaming and the arguments it’s caused have now turned me off it. Whereas it didn’t bother me in the past.
Getting my head around an 11 year old boy spending hours gaming instead of playing outside and having fun with real people is one thing. But lately I have found my-self challenged with another side of gaming. A side of gaming that has me wondering ‘since when did gaming become an investment’ and ‘how can it even be considered an investment for players’?
To me a game is something you do for fun, to pass the time, to enhance skills and abilities. But now all of a sudden, I am seeing talk of investments. Is it just me or were games an investment before blockchain?
Poker is a game. I can play any time and it doesn’t have to cost me anything (bar a pack of cards cos im a tight ass). But I know some Poker players that play for money. Is that a gamble or an investment?
There are clear differences between gambling and investing
• Gambling is generally a short-lived activity which is time bound. whereas investing tends to be longer term
• You can not add a stop loss to a gamble, you either win or lose.
• You can’t hold a lost best until it turns in your favour and claim then.
• Investment generally transfers ownership in terms of shares or stocks
• Investment often pay dividends
To me a game of poker is a gamble. If you put money into a game with the expectation of some sort of return it’s a gamble, not an investment.
I read a post last week which kicked off these thoughts on 'how can a game be an investment’. The post was written by @samotonakatoshi and is titled DrugWars – A Ponzi Scheme Mafia Game (DO NOT INVEST)
https://steemit.com/drugwars/@samotonakatoshi/drugwars-ponzi-scheme-mafia-game-do-not-play-it
I would invite you to take a read and to read the comments. I think the title is very explanatory of the content and no need for me to expand further. But look, there is that word “Invest”!
Then last night I read a post by @davemccoy which I would also invite you to take a read of.
The title is not so explanatory but to sum it up quickly there are changes to steemmonsters to the extent that @davemccoy no longer sees it as an investment.
There’s that word again “investment”. I’d really like to understand the thinking behind the idea that a game on STEEM = investment and not a gamble. Can you explain it to me because I don’t understand?
To me Steemmonsters and Drugwars are games played for fun. The have added value because you can play using STEEM earned elsewhere. You might be lucky enough to earn a few of the steem you spend playing, back, a major plus of the blockchain that over and above other gaming platforms.
The add value to STEEM the blockchain because they use STEEM as a currency giving people more options on how the can use their STEEM. They also add value to the blockchain because the have the ability to reach their own unique audience and bring new users to the block. For these reasons alone they make games on STEEM an investible, and profitable business. But not an investment for the players. It’s an investment for the game developers and business behind the game. They are in it to make money, and so they should be. You are in it to play and have fun, or so you should be. Blockchain has not changed that, or am I missing something??
These are just some quick thoughts. I reserve the right to change my mind if someone gives an argument worthy of helping me make the change.
I think that it might be better to say that games on the Steem blockchain provide an opportunity to potentially earn rewards. Some people might consider that an investment. Some people might consider it income.
For example:
Are the digital assets on Steem a version of digital commodities? Honestly, it is still really hard to say, because we are redefining and/or creating new assets/exchanges of value that are not yet mainstream.
That is just my two sense worth. This is a great question that we may not know the answer to until after we have missed the opportunity.
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so with steemmonsters, you get cards, which is ownership so in that way it ticks the box for investment. you can play with your cards for a long time right, so it also ticks the box of longer term, although tournaments are time bound right. I guess with steemmonsters there is some cross over from that view point
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So you can earn from daily quests and you can earn based on season rewards. Seasons normally last 2 weeks. I have never entered a tournament, but I have earned rewards in the other 2 ways.
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but what are you earning? steem or cards?
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You earn cards, but those cards can be sold for Steem or SBD (depending on how the buyer chooses to make the purchase).
Cards are giving as a reward (for daily quests and season rewards) because they can be used to level up. It is part of the mechanics of the game.
If people win a tournament, then other prizes are available (Steem and SBD).
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Games have been paying people to play for a long time and so in that sense, they can be viewed as an investment of time and/or money.
http://mediakix.com/2018/09/how-much-do-twitch-streamers-make/
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looks like twitch, from its top ten earners figures, would have a longer left tailed curve than steem
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Very likely :)
Those guys have invested a lot of time in becoming good at what they do, which is gaming - muddies the water a bit on distinguishing between gaming and investments? Or maybe i'm just trolling :D
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Real Cash Economy games are just running around these days with the privilege of being a blockchain game. I've invested and even ran business within games for fiat profit in the past. It was an investment and I treated things like a business.
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You weren't the hot looking chick selling me seeds on Second Life were you?
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Na I only ever did fishing in SL. I was more into Entropia Universe. I somewhat miss the good old days of living off income being made in a game.
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Enjar the time-travelling fishercat.
That does sounds like some good old days!
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Ya, one time I help a friend win a spaceship worth 15-20k$ at the time.
That asset was used as a transpiration business for a while. flying common folks to millionaires from planet to planet. I mostly sign up to be the pilot when I had trade routes and business deals that where going in the same direction the ship needed to be. That was in Entropia of course.
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Maybe everyone sees it as a way to grow their investment and are not playing it just because it's a game. I don't know as I have no clue how to play them anyway. I suppose if you are any good you will make a decent return.
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yes some people are making returns and some are losing. and guess who has the edge, the house, not the players
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I think you are spot on. Games are games. You can say that Steem Monsters and Drug Wars are Money Grabbers, but Ponzi Schemes? That's not a correct term.
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thanks @trincowski, I happen to think I am spot on too lol, great minds :-)
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Well, poker and roulette are both gambling but roulette is pure luck while poker is an unusual combination of luck and skill. In the short run (say, one hand) poker can be shown to be primarily about random luck. But in the long run, skill becomes more and more of a factor. For roulette (assuming a fair, well balanced wheel) skill never comes into play.
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agreed, if you can count cards thats an awesome skill and will help in winning a game of poker
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Counting cards is the only way to be a long-term winner at blackjack. More subtle skills are needed for poker.
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goes to show what i know :-)
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I think the main problem is that every interaction with the Steem blockchain is seen as an investment. Rewards are available here, and so everyone is chasing rewards at all times. On other social media, you don't get rewarded, so it's seen as 'free-time' but because here you can get rewarded, it's seen as 'work'.
I think the required mental shift in the community is that we're here because we enjoy it, and any rewards are a special amazing bonus. It's highly unlikely that any company is going to pay us to play games, or make comments, or write non-advertisement posts... so what we're doing here isn't an investment in our time or finances... we've found a way to create value out of nothing... which really, is an incredible gift.
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The investment is in the investing into the game, not playing the game in my opinion. Gaming is a lucrative industry, because it is a consumable, attention driven item. Those who are playing (I don't) these games are looking for a way to add to their stake, they aren't investing in my opinion though other than time and opportunity to do something useful :D
I think playing a game like that as a way to make value might take the fun out for some, add some fun for others. For me, all of Steem is a game and one that can hold up as an investment as well as offer enjoyment in learning and playing with the mechanics.
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But you can also invest time and money into games by playing (indirectly too via training courses) to get better and potentially give yourself a better chance of return.
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just play your games and ,shut up :D
I think that the creators have played the game well for earnings :)
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The games play themselves so I have time to do other things, like think about writing a post and then find something else to do. Perhaps a few comments on the posts of these creators you speak of are in order :P
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What kind of game plays itself?? That isn't playing?
Worst date ever :D
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Some of the investment type ones.
I can be, you just have to play me right :P
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I am investing into the game drugwars too! mostly a bit of time to check in each day and see if I have enough of anything to upgrade and as I am a tight ass I spent just a little steem on the first or second day. Why do I invest my time, well I was one of the few to know and play this before launch on a test net and I just want to continue showing my support for the team and for a bit of fun and competition and becuase its a hot topic and I have fomo. the fact i have made a profit as not swayed me in anyway to continue to play or stop, or how I play. its just an added bonus.
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Well, long ago were the days in which I played the last computer game I played. In fact, cause same as @paulag and many others here I've never been a computer gamer nor a fan of computer games either.
However, according as 'investments' go, I've heard about some nice stories too. :o)
"Every possession is rented, your 5 minute lease is renewed with each heartbeat"
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nice share with that video, very appropriate
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My pleasure babe. :)
I know you enjoy my informative & educative audiovisual 'sharings' to illustrate further your point. };)
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Drug wars is funner then magic dice. And isn't gambiling. Also i made roi on drug wars lol and magic dice
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which isnt gambling, magic dice or drug wars? and what is it and why?
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Magic dice is gambiling. It's a game of chance no matter how far you put it into your favor you still have a chance of losing.
Drug wars is like any other Facebook game passing for upgrades. Depending on drug output you get paid. But I'm betting funds comes from people paying into those said upgrades. In the long run he is correct the more you pay into it is the only way people will continue to get payouts.
But both have this feature. The more people play and lose in magic dice the more go into the divs the more time you hold the more divs you get.
But in the same fashion if also if these games are scams. Then what does that make every single Tron game? Because most of them work on the same premise
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so its all blockchain games then. I havent tried game from other blocks.
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They all seem to work the same. People pay in. Other people there before them profit. Unless you put in no money.
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It is gambling, but the curation part of STEEM is gambling too in a way. Any power up can also be considered a gamble.
Gambling is a very negative word, that's why they use 'Investment' instead, otherwise probably the makers of DrugWars/SteemMonsters would have legal issues as it's clear gambling and there's 0 warnings on their sites.
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Buying shoes on eBay is also gambling. So is doing anything in your life (in some way). Warnings should be everywhere.
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ohhhhhhhhhh never thought of that....the need for warnings about gambling :-)
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The only way I see gaming as an investment is when you are the casino. If you have a house edge and the rules are set, or you control them, such that in the long run it is always profitable, then it ceases to be gambling.
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bang on the ball there. In this case the house are the developers and gaming company :-)
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Gaming has been about making money for a long time. The amount of YouTube’s videos on reviews and walkthroughs is staggering. That is just the tip of the iceberg.
When the reward from the “game” is steem the game for most is not for fun.
I am not a fan of “pay to play” (PTP) games. Monster cards and Drug wars are PTP games. And can not be compared with the over the counter games out there for consoles (PS4, Xbox). PTP games are by nature unfair because they depend on the amount of investment (steem) you have put into it to gain an advantage over those who did not or not as much.
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my son play that fortnite game and spends a fortune on new shit that helps him do more. PTP is getting more and more popular, look at all the game apps in google play. there are tycoon games just like drugwars that are rather high gross earners and there are no rewards attached to them
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What is his expectation of a reward for spending a fortune on fortnite. ?
The differance is in the reward IMO. The expectation of steem as a reward makes all the differance.
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level ups, more power, better weapons that sort of stuff. The difference is steem can be converted back to cash
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That makes all the differance.
game modules allows buy ins to improve ones ability, but non of them allow the ability to cash out.
This creates the expectation of making money and puts the game in a position that the only way it can survive , making its payouts, is for new people to buy in providing the currency for the game to pay out.
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Your balance is below $0.3. Your account is running low and should be replenished. You have roughly 10 more @dustsweeper votes. Check out the Dustsweeper FAQ here: https://steemit.com/dustsweeper/@dustsweeper/dustsweeper-faq
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Gaming is easy to crossover with blockchain and crypto as they have been games where you can “farm” or buy in-game assets to sell in centralized markets for an in game currency. This is definitely investing but has the concept of gamification as it is earned by playing. Blockchain is making it more open in the favt that you can monetize these efforts with a token. I think that this is where it becomes more volatile in nature as it could be neither or both at the same time.
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This post contained some typos in its mentions that have been corrected in less than a day. Thank you for your quick edit !
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thank you, i did indeed
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If you buy something and it's worth more in the future, it's an investment.
Steem Monsters cards are an investment. I sold my gold cards for profit.
Games that have prizes for tournaments can be seen as an investment, but all investments are gambling.
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and if they do down in value what are they? shitcards lol.
I disagree that all invetments are gambling, and I agure the points the distinguish them in the post
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What? Any investment has a chance of going down, therefore you're gambling on which way it will go.
It's like the price of Steem. I started when it was US$5, now it's US$0.35.
It's a gamble on the idea that at some point it will go back up to US$5, but it won't be for a long time.
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okay well we will agree to disagree then :-)
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Back in the day games like Entropia Universe and other Real Cash Economy games would hide behind legality of “this is an investment” and yes you could run a business inside, sell services, and get back an ROI on quite an number of things. I sure did in that game.
They also had hunting, crafting, and mining all with a legal set return rate because it was in fact gambling and thus had house edges listed. Yet it was under the "this is an investment" mindset. At one point they even tried to set up their own bank for their digital currency of PED. Which had a fix exchange rate to fiat. Long before there was ever the word cryptocurrency. There were a bunch of games like that without the whole trying become their own bank.
When it comes to items in a game that you can then resell at a later point in time they sure can become an investment. That game had real estate, space ships, gear, weapons, land deeds, shares, player owned shopping centers and so forth. You could also at ANY POINT IN TIME sell the item back to the game for a set value. Which is what most blockchain games are missing. There is no base value the game will trade back for. Where the players are trying to sell to other players for a markup.
The issue with blockchain games is instead of charging an upfront cost just to buy and play the game there an endless amount of microtransactions and pay to win options. In non-blockchain gaming players hate these things and yet they will shell out 1k’s of dollars trying to chase after profit in blockchain games.
We are starting to see Real Cash Economy games just be blockchain games. Frankly most blockchain games out there suck and the masses would not spend like they are if they did not think there was a chance to turn a profit. Most of them never will.
In every game players want to make in game money to trade and buy things. Expect in cryptocurrency you can now legally make real money. Without breaking TOS and selling on even more shady sites. One search of “how to make gold in WoW” on YouTube and you can see farming for gold in that game is huge and most people are not going try and sell for money. They just want it for their own personal use.
Now imagine instead if WoW gold was a cryptocurrency. A big way to make in game gold in WoW is investing your gold into items for: flipping, converting, and other stuff.
Players investing in video games has always been around. There was just very few enter/exit opportunities for fiat to get involved. So most of it was internal and you were investing time and applying game knowledge to acquire and build up that in game wealth for fun and not financial gain. Not spending fait or other currency’s to do so.
Investment is just being used like it has in the past. Most people will never EVER act like a business and are just gambling. Expect they are delusional that they are making “investments.” While one could argue investing is gambling as well. I’ll forgot wanting to think more into that.
Back a couple weeks ago when people were getting huge votes for writing reviews on blockchain games I try to counter with this post. http://enjargames.dblog.org/11-profit-mistakes-people-make-playing-blockchain-games .
I’ve considered not writing about blockchain games or promoting them anymore as something to play for fun. Cryptocurrency has massive FOMA and people keep blowing all their money acting like in 48 hours they will be richer then Warren Buffet.
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Yep! I've heard about that @enjar. :)
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I couldn't say it better.
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Have you seen this one?
https://www.moonsteem.com/?ref=freebornangel
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lol thanks for the link, I did read something about it but I havent taken a look
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Steemmonsters had a lot of its marketing focus on the esports element. People make a lot of money from sport.
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esport, like streaming, only because of spectators. it amazes me
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Selling game accounts and/or items has been a thing for a long time now. Whether they be cards, rare items, in-game currency, etc.
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in-game currency is a big big thing, but it cant be swaped back for cash, and I think thats the real difference here. they younger generation will be so use to in-game currency, moving to crypto will be no big deal
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Not as easily back then.
With crypto, it's much easier to do so. The only downside is that it's so volatile in terms of prices.
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volatile prices is a barrier to crypto in general
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Congratulations @paulag! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :
Click here to view your Board
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STEEM has a bright future!!
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Games should be fun and rewarding.
Drugwars was fairly good calculated risk/investment from the beginning. Most big players knew that when they get in early and pump the daily prizepool the smaller investors will follow. After 10 days they got the investment back and so did I.
It was a pretty predictable outcome and if it failed at least we could say the game was fun!
!bookkeeping drugwars
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Hi @masterthematrix!
drugwars
Received:
Spent:
Total:
First transfer was before 15.11 days.
Your ROI per day is 12.74 % and you are earning approx. 3.39 STEEM per day.
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yes, the game is fun indeed
I didnt spent near as much as you did ( and you didnt spend much either)
!bookkeeping drugwars
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Hi @paulag!
drugwars
Received:
Spent:
Total:
First transfer was before 29.84 days.
Your ROI per day is 7.21 % and you are earning approx. 0.56 STEEM per day.
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I believe the term "investment" related to games is very wrong.
Both SM and DW have winners and losers. And both have people who have put in more money than they got out (or that their portfolio is valued at).
At the same time, there are ways to continue to earn, while you keep playing.
ROI is a bad term for it. Earning rewards is better and it happens. On both games. Quicker or slower.
Much more important factors/indicators are how much you value your time and if you enjoy playing the game or not.
I would put funds (and have done so) because I understand the games and I like to play them. On DW I practically got my STEEM back. On SM I didn't sell anything and market prices lowered over time, so I wouldn't recover my "investment" if I were to sell. But I like playing the game and look forward to their new additions.
In the past I paid some money to play one of my favorite games. I didn't get anything in return other than access to the game. So stop treating games as "investments". STEEM games, compared to classic ones do offer the possibility to earn something for playing them. Classic games didn't and I believe still don't.
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do you think the users of in-game currency (such a vbucks) see they purcahses as an investment...I know my 11 year old does but to him the investment is in his game play and improvement on that is the gain.
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I don't think so. You described them well. They can be used for in-game upgrades of some sort. And gamers love to be better than their peers, to be in the top, to unlock stuff, to be 'where nobody has been before' if possible.
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so really it all boils down to the mentality STEEM brings, lol its all gold if its on steem :-)
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Yeah, I'm afraid so...
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Hi @paulag!
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Thanks for these clear words.
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This post has been included in the latest edition of SoS Daily News - a digest of all you need to know about the State of Steem.
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Let me join the chorus and sing along, "Steem Monsters is not a game but an investment" nah, nah nah nah, beep beep (with a techno back drop)
:)
SM has so many ways to earn, from tournaments, season rewards, daily quests, card trading and votes from their big account for articles, dare I say that for many of us it is a game that is an investment.
Many players that I know are up wildly on their SM investment.
I invested a couple of grand a few months ago and I have gotten a least $800-$1,000 back so far (I don't take the time for exact records). And I still have 467 unopened packs + a lot of maxed cards.
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a couple of grand. I have heard that a few times. you do realise for winners there has to be losers. Man I just dont fully get it. But, I did say in a comment above that with steemmonsters, you get cards, which is ownership so in that way it ticks the box for investment. you can play with your cards for a long time right, so it also ticks the box of longer term, although tournaments are time bound right. I guess with steemmonsters there is some cross over from that view point
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I agree with much of what you have said here @paulag... and I don't see games as an "investment" UNLESS I happen to be buying stock in a gaming company.
I think we have a couple of things working here:
Because the vast majority of people who are part of the Steem ecosystem came here on the lure of "make money," pretty much everyone here views every activity they are engaged in through the lens of perception of "making money" rather than the lens of perhaps "having fun," or maybe "creativity" or could be "content creation."
The other issue is more global... in an economy where conventional "work" as we know it increasingly being pushed out by automation, more and more people are actively wondering what to do and that perhaps includes more of a perspective of how to monetize my leisure time.
And so... there's this constant scanning the horizon for whether the next experience can be turned into an investment.
Which — at least from where I'm sitting — is a very sad reflection on where the world is heading...
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I think you are right, people are here on the lure of money and there still is the perception of making money. I said something simiar on a comment to samotonakatoshi post when I read it. we have a lot of work to do to change that perception and its going to take a long time. Untill then the winners will see them selves as amazing investors while the losers keep losing
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Gaming in terms of video games was previously just for fun, though with some tournaments held and money prizes for the best players. Now though, gaming has become a viable investment of time and money to get set up with the equipment and followers, allowing for donations and more to come in.
It is getting harder though as there are so many people doing things like Twitch streaming or YouTube videos, meaning more competition for viewers and support.
I personally (now I am getting back into Steemit posts again) will be keeping my content for Steemit/DTube etc in order to help the platform grow and so when the STEEM price goes right up again and is even bigger, I can withdraw part of my earnings to help sustain my life and being able to do more and more on Steemit too.
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streamers can make big money, because there are more spectators than ever
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Howdy today paulag! I have no idea what to say except this: I just spent alot of time reading the brilliant comments on this post and my brain is fried for the rest of the day! lol. The responses you got are incredible, well done!
I don't play any games myself and I hate the entire premise of Drugwars just as anyone who has seen family members struggle with drug addiction or would. Plus Mrs. J has to contend with the consequences of drug abuse and use every single night in her job. So even though it's just a game and make believe I can't stand thinking about the goals one is supposed to achieve in it.
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it was a busy post indeed with many different options. So with my parent hat on, and a child of 11, drugs are something i worry about. No way would I let him play it or even tell him about it, but he is on steemmonsters. Yes it is only a game, but for young minds it norimilzes drug dealing, make it hip and fun. Not good.
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howdy paulag! Yes exactly! That's one of the problems I have with it too, the impressionable youth aspect. You're pretty savvy for an Irishman! lol. I don't know if they call Irish ladies Irishman but you know what I mean.
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a cailín, the direct translation is girl, lol a woman is a bean. these are irish words. irish Savvy woman is bean shaothrach na hÉireann :-)
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oh no! A savvy woman is a bean? lol. I think I would be terrible at your language! I wish I could pronounce what you wrote though, that looks really interesting. So you're a savvy bean? lol.
well, the kids are lucky to have you as their mom.
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lol I cant even promounce it, bean I think we both have but shaothrach has me lol
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oh ok, lol! Are you native Irish or were born there? And what languages did you grow up speaking?
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Yes I am Irish, but we speak english. we do learn Irish in school from age 4 - 17 but I remember none of it. its so bad I cant even help the kids with their homework 😂😂😂😂😂😂
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For me, there is no difference between gaming and gambling, as they both are designed for fun. Yes, playing games can bring a reward, but it is not related to investment. Some people gamble in pursuit of money but I didn’t hear them calling it an investment. I think that the only people, who can be called investors, are game developers https://businesscomputingworld.co.uk/t/best-software-providers-of-online-pokies/796 , as they are investing their efforts, skills and time with the hope for returns from games. And rewards, received by gamers or gamblers are intended for their engagement in a particular game IMO.
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