Broken how? Communities and societies all operate according to established rules (right or wrong). There are various measures to deal with violations of those rules. Some measures are more severe than others as punishments, which vary within a society/community and between various societies/communities.
Can this be done in Steemit? Not right now. No rules or standards established. No measures to address wrongs from those who have the power in a flawed design and abuse it to engage in vendettas.
Do you think Facebook succeeds because there are no rules? No, there are rules, and that's why issues and problems can be dealt with to a certain extent. They adapt and change to correct errors in how things operate, to a certain extent, such as abuses, harassment, copyright, etc. There is a method to apply a right to redress a wrong in some capacity. You can report. You can contact staff on issues. Sure they can censor, ignore, and do nothing, but at least there is a real avenue to deal with issues on the platform.
What about on Steemit? Nothing, other than the "great" flagging tool... yes, the flag solves all problems LMAO!
When power abusing authorities in a flawed system can punish authors by removing rewards others allocate, authors who put out 1 post in a week (tested and flagged), or one post in a day (tested and flagged), even when it's original work without coming from external sources... yes... that's a rational and successful model for greater adoption by the masses... LMAO. Don't you love it when wrong-doings go on unchecked without any consequences? I sure do. Sign me up!
Go ahead and bring in tons of people like in July 2016 through advertising and marketing while this system is still broken like it is with an experiment pretending to be a "real solution". And when people speak truth to power abuse, they can see how great and wonderful Steemit is as they get flagged by power players abusing their authority. I guess that's what it will take for the so-called "community" to wake up to the issue. I guess it just needs to happen to more than one or two people ...
The concentration of power is the problem. It was in July, and people noticed, and they left. Yet it was never addressed, just ignored by the power players and Steemit Inc. Things just kept going as they were. July, August, September, October, November, December, January, February, March. It took 8 months for the so-called "management" by power playing SP authorities to decide to try an "experiment" to show the problem is with a concentration of power. Will it take another 8 months to deal with the flagging issue? LOL!
I understand your frustration (I was called a "pretentious douchebag troll" yesterday by the same whale you're frustrated with). I too have been flagged by them for (what seems to me) arbitrary and inconsistent reasons ("You shouldn't have three posts on the trending page at the same time" or "I didn't think it was that valuable or the rewards should be that high for a new user"). The last one bummed me out a little because all the liquid rewards were going to a new user, and I was just using my follower count to promote their great content. Watching the potential payout for this new user go from $149 to $49 with one Steemit user's click is certainly discouraging...
...from a certain perspective.
I have argued that Steemit is a lottery. If we think about it in terms of deserved rewards or some rational pay for value system, we will always be discouraged. And yes, that does mean people who have those expectations will get very frustrated here (in its current form) and leave. Some are okay with that because they don't share that same perspective on what "should" happen here.
Again, I'm not discounting your frustration or what it feels like when you get flagged and see potential rewards disappear. It can feel vindictive or a personal attack (and, in some cases, it clearly is). What I am saying is this is a different animal than any other social media platform. The rules you speak of may be comforting for the masses, but there's a growing number of people who reject them outright. They don't want central powers controlling their content and selling it for their own profit. Steemit has a centralization of power as it relates to financial reward distribution, but it's also an open system anyone can participate it. Yes, some early miners have a huge amount of Steem Power. Unlike the social media systems you mentioned earlier, there's an opportunity for anyone with enough money to power up and have that same level of influence to offset the votes of other whales.
In summary, this is chaos. Many are very, very uncomfortable with chaos. Others are starting to realize how order can come from chaos and how resilient and anti-fragile that result can be. It will not happen quickly. Some will leave because their expectations are not being met. Others will work to influence the community decisions and software rules to change the platform to better meet their expectations. Still others will change their expectations and post here for fun, with the financial rewards as an extra bonus.
I value your content. I hope you reject the first group and choose to stick around as a combination of the second and third group I described.
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Very well put, and much more than I can be personally bothered with, considering @krnel 's continued ranting on the subject and lack of contribution to a solution, instead stoking the flames of discontent. This is along the lines of what I would want to say 😊
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It is actually a lottery, since there's no non-subjective way to evalute a post - except the number of upvotes. Have to take it for what it is
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As I mentioned in my post, it's directly described that way in the white paper. When we have expectations outside of the document which defines the system, we're bound to have frustration.
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of course. but complaining is a way to put pressure. many people complaining in a very small community can change something - not necessarily for the best
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Complaining is a very poor way to do it, but has some value.
Criticising is better because it essentially is a complaint but goes further to try to make sense of the problem instead of just reacting against it.
Proposing a solution is probably the best, as it includes the first two, but goes even further because even if you're wrong about it or way off, a solution can provide impersonal debate and arguments something that may stand on its own or inspire someone else. This is something the first two do not do well.
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of course you are right. even if I was thinking more about social dynamics and their effects on the growing/not-growing of a community, than about actual problems and their solution. I think it is an aspect not to undervaluate
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Indeed. I prefer constructive debate over complaining though. Most of us take things personally or resort to name calling instead of constructive debate. Very few have the mathematical game theory experience, financial motivational psychology understanding, or programming skills to push things forward. I think it'll take time. There is certainly room for "Hey, this is kinda messed up, people. What can we do to fix it?"
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It is, but it's only a metaphor (actually a simile) of how it works. It's not quite a lottery because we all decide how payout happens, instead of by some random process. Perhaps a large enough group of people voting can be considered random (I'd have to see this proven to believe it) but it appears to me that people do seem to vote for what they like or feel is "deserving", however variously and individually that is defined. And that is enough to skew things, amongst the other complex factors, like the price of Steem.
But this
is important to note.
Can we do better though? I know that's what krnel is and probably will be calling for. Do you think this aspect is fundamental, i.e. will not be likely to change in an update / HF? I think the best we can do without throwing out the system's premisses entirely is reducing the power disparity, which I think is probably the real root cause of the issues that get brought up.
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Yes, there's been a lot of talk about changing the reward distribution curve or hiding potential payouts until all the votes have been settled by the community, etc. Those, I feel, are very constructive conversations.
I love Steemit and hope to be a whale myself some day. If the incentives for becoming a whale decrease too much, that may delay (indefinitely?) me getting to that position. That said, maybe the value of Steem itself would be enough to encourage whales to power up even if their direct influence over the platform goes down. There's also been talk of an investor class among other discussions. Many things are being discussed.
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I presume you are saying you would not support reducing whale power relative to minnow or dolphin power.
If so, I hope you are convinced some day that a large "middle class" of medium power users is important, also for the accountability concerns krnel raises, but for fairness in general.
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No, I do think adjustments in the reward curve should be made. The experiment so many people are upset about showed, IMO, this would be a more active platform if everyone's votes mattered more.
That said, I don't think the incentive to be a whale should decrease to such a degree that no serious investors want to invest in STEEM (and thus, this platform which is funded by their investment). Steemit, Inc will not continue to exist without those investors. Some may think that's a good thing (and maybe it is?), but I do think their focused, full-time attention to the platform is really important in these early days.
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Agreed. A balance must be struck. Thanks for your replies. 🙂
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I think the concentration of power is definitely an issue and they're looking to redress this by altering the rewards curve with respect to the voters stake so that larger stakeholders have reduced voting power in the future
I think flagging as a way of removing rewards is not a bad idea, in a decentralized community no one has the authority to censor or remove your posts, so removing monetary rewards is the only viable approach. Does that mean this system will be free of abuse? Of course not, but I trust that in the long term this will balance out for the better
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I like how you think, I also agree with what is stated here, just now I made a comment, on the "NEW" Hardfork 18 :( and how there will be no consensus unless there is communication, which we aren't doing properly and no amount of chat can do that, either there is a separate post on all the topics so we can reach one clear outcome or we are going to never agree because half of the changes are flawed to most people, so good luck getting 10k people to agree on a given topic even if it's just 10 changes and some are old news so to speak :)
Original COmment: here
Seems like there will be changes to the "Upvote Lockout" from 1 minute to 12 hours, seems like a dull move, even if there are here, they might roll it back in hard fork 20+ since people would want to vote five thousand times by then :| instagram and all :)
Source post: @ervin-lemark on the hardforks 17/18
Anyways, Welcome!!! I saw your post but didn't read it was too far into the sleepy phase :)
Nice to see you getting on the major issues here :) we had a blast from a starting "steemian" before a few months, @fidelity is his handle :)
Other than that cheers, :D there is a new samurai jack already at episode 3 and StarCraft has been remastared:D
Good luck I hope to hear more from you :)
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I agree, they will likely get rid of the exponential voting power that's proportional to your holdings^2
They're retain some degree of positive relationship between holdings vs voting power or steem power will have absolutely no utility value and this would destroy the economy (or at least require a completely new economic model)
After the changes, I'd expect whale flaggings to hurt less or cost more for them etc.
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They can have it.
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:D post on flagging gets flagged for 123 views and 28 comments , by @engagement :) welcome to the you are ruining our good image chain :) be quiet :D whale at work :D
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The best thing will be competition from similar platform models. I see some social network block chain type setups in the mix.
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Bullshit. There are tons of rules. Explicit, implicit, whatever you want.
The money-for-vote rule is one of strongest there is on the internet for example, because money is power.
You can make a living for people just by adhering to the vote rule, and you say there are no rules here? That rule of power is even stronger then that of employer-employee.
You cannot chat here, and you say there is no no-chat rule on steemit?
Architecture is rules. Just look at the anti-sleeping-homeless banks with their round "armrests" or the space between seats made so that you cannot lie on them. THAT is rule by architecture in perfection.
Same goes for every feature that is included or not included here.
If you cannot see that, you need to open your eyes. And then again.
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So you want OTHER rules as are in place now. Fine. But don't say there are none.
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He's far too "conscious" to talk to people like you. He doesn't understand because he's a pretentious douche who TRULY believes he's always right.
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Crapitalism and the stated goals of this platform are incompatible.
That is becoming apparent to them, now.
How we move forward will likely spell the end of what was, and the beginning of what can be. (durp!)
Some people find it hard to change,....
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Well said. You've capture many of the concerns I have voiced since July, mainly the lake of community standards and the broken and overreaching flagging mechanism. In a previous comment I suggested that flagging weight should be a factor of reputation and not steempower. Additionally there should be limits to flagging with any flagging abuse putting the person flagging at risk of a drop in reputation. I think that lack of these structures along with the lack of standardized reward limits are the main causes of the poor performance for the past 6 months....(also steemit needs to find a way to monetize all the attention on the site).
Upvoted. Resteemed.
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Hey Captain of steemit. You hit the fucking iceberg!
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I had a problem with randomness from day 1 here. Somehow you just learn to go with the flow and keep your fingers crossed. At least that is what us minnows can do :/
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What if it was designed that way on purpose?
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That would be a rule. Didn't you read his post? There are no rules!!!11!! ;)
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I don´t really understand what you mean by "broken".
Since the experiment started, rewards have been distributed much more fairly. Minnows and dolphins are celebrating it, the overall activity has increased considerably and many new users are finding their way to the platform. I have started following many of them since their intro posts, and a lot are doing really well.
What is a flag compared with all these positive experiences? If there was existing a downvote butting it wouldn´t even be a flag...
There is always a way to see that glass half empty instead of half full, huh? :-)
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@krnel doesn't understand what "fair" is unless it includes him reaping $100+/day on bullshit rants...
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He will get over it...:)
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You are amazing✌✌
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@engagment, where did you go? I came across your page and I think supporting calm, educated conversation is healthy on Steem! Did you just get over the nonsense?
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Good job friend, congratulations, I hope you can support me with a vote
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Fine point here, but I disagree. Afterall, as the story goes god's manifestation in the form of Jesus wasn't a "whale" within the ranks of men, but rather a lowly carpenter from humble parents, not a Hercules of physical stature from aristocratic lineage.
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Another unforseen consequence is that it keeps people from investing their money. For example, I used to write on Blogspot but now I do it here because getting something (however little) is better than nothing. Having said that, I wouldn't consider investing my money here.
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I agree whole-heartedly with this! I was incensed and almost permanently put off STEEM based on an interaction I had with a higher-up over the (idiotic) blurbs that were written on the steemit.io website! He shut me down unintelligently and nothing changed! there should be a Steemian layman poster's guild!
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I know your frustration and It's quite scary that people can just abuse their power to mess with people. I don't know what the future will bring for steemit, but I agree with most of your arguments. We are still in an early stage of this, let the platform develope and evole into something new and better. People will learn from their mistakes and so does this platform.
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We must pay attention, that Steemit is not a "lottery" since it can be manipulated by a Mob to control and influence the final results.
Flags are not and were not designed to be an instrument of power to influence the final outcome of the "lottery".
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Whales made you and other whales take you down. You didn't say anything when you were shilled for your copy-pasta sensational nonsense from tinfoiled whales and now you complain?
sad.
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Great post, thanks!
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Why no one really want to see the reall problem ?
Many of your post was flaged with the reason to big payment right ?
If bots wasunt exist will be the people opinion ageans @engagement opinion.
Now you canot win because this excuse will bi used for any post you do .
This one for example 201 votes 84 vews and 9 comments at this moment .
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