Think about it, if a new user, even he don't have much STEEM POWER in his wallet, but he have gained his reputation from the community, do you think he deserve more voting power than the whales?
The active users are dropping at this early stage, we have big problem here, we need to change the whole reward system, the SP weighted voting system just doesn't work.
我觉得可以考虑把持币的权重，改为信用分的权重，会更公平，一个普通用户，即使他钱包里没什么钱，但是只要他被点赞的多，就应该有更大的话语权.
一人一票也不行，会被机器人大量滥用的.机器人想快速获得高的信用分，很难,似乎无漏洞可钻.
When you gain reputation from the community you also get SP. So it already works that way, sort of.
But removing voting power from whales will completely change how STEEM works (and might make it probe to various forms of abuse), so it might be better to start a separate blockchain/web site for that.
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You can gain reputation without gaining steem power I'm proof of that. Lots of activity but nothing but tiny payouts.
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Well, same here
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To be honest, as one of the whale, i am not interested in most of the posts on this platform, i think other whales is the same too, not interested or don't have enough time, some of the whales are using robots to vote, if the whales(only 130 active in 24 hours with more than $60k worth of SP) are incompetent, why not let the users (more than 4000 active in 24 hours) do the curation job?
I think it's difficult to abuse the reputation system, it's very hard for the new accounts to gain reputation, so i am not worry about the sybil attack.
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Reputation and System Power should be earned not bought, that includes votes. Voting should only increase SD but not Steem Power. Reputation and Steem Power should be earned from active contribution to community (and humanity) not by buying or having it funded by whales.
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I am pretty sure that reputation is earned and not bought. A quick analysis will show that there are a very large number of large investors who purchase SeemPower who have a smaller reputation score that other people who are consistent positive contributors, but have a smaller overall investment in SP.
There are two different systems in place. Reputation system and reward system. In a way they are related:
-With the reward system based on your investment- the system is assured of you alignment with the success of the platform based on how high your monetary investment is.
-With the reputation system based on social approval and contribution- the system is assured of your alignment with the success of the platform based on your accumulated positive contributions.
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If some of those whales have smaller reputation (uncommon), that's maybe becasue they do not post much in their blog. If you are whale, it is easy to get higher reputation. Just post something and all other whales would jump on your posts, including all poor beggars. You will qucikly earn reputation.
If you are poor, then it takes a very long time to raise your reputation.
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It is defenatly harder when you have no rep to gain rep. Even by making original content.
But i do agree that the rep system is socaily based and most of it is positive, there is the point where one can oversee something though
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that's moronic, how are you going to raise the value of steem if no one invest their money in it or get any value from investing?
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I like your point:
Reputation and System Power should be earned not bought.
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Thanks for the comment xianjuan
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a job that I see needs to be done is a good curator job, for each subject.
for example, @infovore reports on the whales and miners. He's doing a Steem Mag for that purpose.
Also, what's needed is information aggregators who condense the best material into a Steem magazine for each subject so that whales can learn who the best content creators are. I have suggested this to one, and he's doing a Minnow Report. This needs to happen in all subject areas.
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It sounds like and interesting. But what do you think should be the point of reference for "the best content"?
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Logic, for some reason I could not reply to your early response above so I am posting here:
"If some of those whales have smaller reputation (uncommon), that's maybe becasue they do not post much in their blog. If you are whale, it is easy to get higher reputation. Just post something and all other whales would jump on your posts, including all poor beggars. You will qucikly earn reputation.
If you are poor, then it takes a very long time to raise your reputation."
I will not argue the point, you may be correct. But the fact remains the reputation scores are earned for (non financial ) contribution to the platform ie posting ect. Where as seniority levels (whales, minnows ect) are rated by the amount of skin you have put into the game (financial investment mainly in the form of SteemPower). They are two different measures with different type of benefits.
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I will support @james212 's claim by quoiting this from my post:
" the crowd will support anything that the whale has to say, no matter if it's good or bad."
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:-/
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But then we need a much more complex rep system inplace
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Explain to me why I should power up if it does me no good.
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Why can't you enjoy the platform as it is ? Either way changes are constantly made, based on what the users need and want...however i am pretty sure that there will be someone always complaining about something.
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Of course you would say that you enjoy it as it is. You are one of the wealthy 1% here who benefits from status quo
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how is royaltiffany one of the wealthy 1 %. they have a point someone will complain that they are not winning no matter what. but a " whale" has a lot to risk. This is a new platform and things are still cheap if you want to invest and put your money on the line.
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Vast Majority of Steemit users have less than 250 SP.
She has acquired 1300 SP and 8000 SD within 3 weeks. For me someone who has more than 1000 SP and 8000 SD (6000 in US dollars) is Steem wealthy.
If you wanted to just buy that much Steem Power, you would need to spend 5 BTC (2900 USD in current rate)
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imagine you can go back in time and invest in reddit or 4chan when they were starting up. its a bet for sure but if this platform works everything out or adds video and actually picks up users the current valuation is nothing.
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I enjoyed it as it was from the beginning...it has nothing to do with being a part of the wealthy 1% or not, and everything to do with how you chose to feel about this platform and what you desire from it (aka your expectations from it).
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Of course, you have enjoyed. You got into whale position very quickly. Right from the beginning you have been lucky to be jumped on by some whales and promoted on yourt posts (well done for being in good time and good place and be picked from 40 thousand other regular Steemit members).
I have seen your posts and they all are about utter bullshit. You flood your blog with pictures of selfies with meaningless little stories, videos of drinking booze/eating pizza or close up photos of you naked buttocks by Mari Blue etc.
You have been promoted for the posts which bring no actual value to betterment of humanity.
Forget humanity, they do not even bring anything of value to development of Steemit.
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@logic There you go...some more "utter bullshit " for you to read. My reply was too long and kinda offtopic. Enjoy the reading!
https://steemit.com/steemit/@royaltiffany/steemland-utter-bullshit
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Not to mention that this platform is still a baby...ok maybe not a baby , more like arriving to puberty...as @jsteck said, awkward stage.
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Even upvotes gained in comments or blog posts could be fake as well. See https://steemd.com/steemitlove for instance. He seems to write bots to upvote himself. Now, his reputation grows at the speed of a rocket.
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It seems his reputation is -6.
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Nonetheless, the 40 bots is bringing back his reputation. See the incoming vote part at https://steemstats.com/@steemitlove#/ The bot is gaining more than 40 upvotes everytime it comments.
I observe that its reputation changes from -34,801,721,220,430 to -34,801,551,656,356 in a short while (an increase of 169, 564, 074)
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@laonie Please help upvote this post https://steemit.com/bot/@nomorealex/clever-people-or-bots-with-low-reputation-get-back-by-getting-even-more-bots-to-upvote-themselves if you also think this is an issue.
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The bot problem has to be solved asap. It's of utmost priority atm
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Why should someone an early adopter or whale who most likely invested in this platform early and assumed the most risk be punished? I can understand some new users frustration but the platform has three ways to reward you.
One concern I do have is what happened to Digg.com. Digg was the premier link aggregator before Reddit took over. Power users were able to manipulate the system so that only content they approved of reached the front page. It got so bad before the end, companies were paying these powerful users to promote their products. It ended badly. The userbase jumped ship and Digg dies almost overnight.
Reddit is also having these kinds of problems now but they are a bit different. Brigading is an issue but even more concerning is that company admins are actively censoring content that they don't like. They even went so far as to mess with the site algorithm to keep political or social content out of r/all that they find distasteful.
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Good story, thanks.
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Hopefully Steemit won'tend up this way...
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I agree that a change is needed but it should not be too extreme. Also I believe the reputation system is heavily influenced by SP.
I am happy with the pace of improvement and change, and I just hope that the changes continue, because as you said, we have problems
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I didn't realize sp had anything to do with the new rep system. I thought it was based on voting on popular posts if anything
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Steemit is in its early stage and there are only few users with an huge amount of SP (you call them whales). You say the system should be changed from SP to reputation power. Let me tell you why this is a bad idea. Right know we have a hand full of curators who can give you a nice amount of dollars and you think it's unfair. But guess why? Because Steemit hasn't even developed now! In few months those with little SP will have more and so they can give others more power. It's just a matter of time. Steemit as it exists now will change. To the better. Don't be afraid of changes
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Yep we're just going through an awkward stage.
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The whole system is biased from the start. By inviting useless users who want to make a quick buck first instead of the smartest people in the world (univ teachers, professionals in every field, univ students, etc).
Money is flowing to the wrong people, Power too. Instead of a platform that should be creating value to the world we have a platform full of users trying to extract money from it.
In the long run i believe the whole platform and steem will collapse, because you can't sustain such withdraws of wealth forever if you don't actually create real value. Less than 1% of the posts created on steemit are worth something. The rest is not valuable.
I believe that's why the whales are all powering down, because they smell blood : http://steemdown.com/
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less than .1 % of post are worth something just like the real world. everyone has an opinion on what is great content. our opinions don't matter. the crowd can be stupid. trump won the republican nom and cnn is considered a news channel. that's how stupid the world really is.
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I agree with everything you said.
I wrote the same last night
https://steemit.com/steemit/@logic/steemit-as-direct-projection
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Good point.
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I understand and have empathy with your concerns, but I do not agree with your conclusions. There are no mid to long term facts or analysis yet to support your claims. I suggest Steemit is still in "early adaptors/innovators" phase. A community of 55-60K is still nothing compared to FB, Twitter or YT.
My policy is "wait and see".
I have been a university level lecturer and know 2 professors signed up today as a direct result of my posting about Steemit in a private online Educators forum that we are members of. Why private? Because we have been discussing the way forward for non-censored educational material and methods in the coming years, where environments like Reddit, FB, YT; the various online educational hosts - Udemy, Skillshare, etc. and "traditional" educational institutions do not get to dictate, control or censor ideas.
There has been talk and hope of a platform like "Steemit" for some time now.... and quite a bit excitement and hope for the future now it is here.
Instead of whining about what is beyond our control - other people's content and opinions - let us focus on what we can control. Cream always rises to the top. Be the change you wish to see in the world. Sorry for cliches, but they are clichés for a reason.
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看来帮主想来个灭鲸行动啊
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In strongly agree with you.
Low steem power owner like us struggling too much , we have post very good post content try to be so creative ,but nobody care .
This whales circle jerks seems a little bit unfair.
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once more people join then you will get more upvotes I think. right now this platform only has 44 000 users. that's nothing
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"whales circle jerks" lol
The amount of new people joining can make things better or worse. That depends how power is going to be distributed among all users.
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There may be other ways to redistribute steem wealth. Rather than repeating my arguments, I'd like to refer you to my thoughts on the topic if you haven't seen it already.
But it seems to be that the system is simply not set up with equality and distributed community power in mind. Or at least, the initial conditions heavily favor the 'steem wealthy' and they are having a hard time distributing power fairly.
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Yes, good point. I think it may go to the root cause of the problem - the core design of the system itself
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understood nothing. but I supported you
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I understood everything and I am not even native English speaker!
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It's still too early to make conclusion, but I think Steem develops in positive direction. I'm only third week here, seen plenty positive changes, fast reaction to new threats. Whales are important part of the ecosystem, killing them you devastate all chain.
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赞同，唯一且只有个一种方式成全鲸鱼，显得有些武断。能通过多种方式成为鲸鱼,更人性化。
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I suspect reputation can be gamed easier than SP.
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Top, 不顶@dan看不到
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I understand your point, just dont think you need such a gruesome image to star this off with:|
Edit : thank you <3 upvoted ;)
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That is actually an awesome idea. I doubt they will change it like that but it would actually make things fairer and speed up distribution. I suspect a lot of minnows and small accounts just give up quite early.
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@lonie Just to say I should have clarified that I don't think it is really killing the whales to do this. I have another suggestion in my most recent post that you may find of interest regarding delegated voting. I can send you a link if you want or you can check it out on my page @thecryptofiend - All the best. It is nice to see a whale who really cares about the minnows.
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希望大鲸鱼们都能看到。
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wow! Thought you were actually talking about real whales! lol and it made me sad! but it wasn't! I just also posted a recipe on Russian Blini :) Let me know what you think :) Alla x
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Agree theres a potential issue, I don't agree with your solution though.
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No a surprise that you don't. You are wealthy Steem elite. Changing status quo would not allow you to become even richer for doing little of positive social contribution.
All your posts seem to be about Steem economics, making money and consolidation of whale power.
Non of the posts are about things which actually matter for humanity such as technology, science and activism, which directly improve the quality of our lives.
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I think a better solution would be a curation cap or tax. After high SP curators have reached that cap they would be incentivised to instead focus on improving diversity and increasing adoption.
As for what I decide to post, I choose what I'm passionate about. Thats spotting patterns, trading and economics. I see nothing wrong with that.
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I would increase the cap of maximum, voting effective Steem Power to about 5000. Then it would be equal for everyone. Past 5000, Steem Power should not have any impact on voting but it should keep their value share in the blockchain and value towards Powering Down.
Also there should be a a daily cap of Steem Dollars. We shouldn't be allowed to earn more than 5000 SD a day, from our posts (And actual 2500 SD after 50% share being taken away).
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Those caps will have negative repercussions. What if someone spends weeks or months developing a sidechain application for Steemit and then releases... only to receive 5k when they've actually added a huge amount more value to the platform. It disincentives things like this which will drive demand and growth in the future.
Capping voting power at a fixed rate disincentives holding Steem Power, resulting in more powering down and fragility in the system.
So I think the best way would be to cap curation rewards as a % relative to Steem Power. I'm not sure what it would be but as a reference wang is at around a 100% simple interest increase per year.
Once that cap is reached then the larger SP holders have the incentive to instead focus their efforts on market cap appreciation. Which means mass adoption, diversity and a sustained form of growth.
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"Those caps will have negative repercussions. What if someone spends weeks or months developing a sidechain application for Steemit and then releases... only to receive 5k when they've actually added a huge amount more value to the platform. It disincentives things like this which will drive demand and growth in the future.
Capping voting power at a fixed rate disincentives holding Steem Power, resulting in more powering down and fragility in the system.
So I think the best way would be to cap curation rewards as a % relative to Steem Power. I'm not sure what it would be but as a reference wang is at around a 100% simple interest increase per year."
Once that cap is reached then the larger SP holders have the incentive to instead focus their efforts on market cap appreciation. Which means mass adoption, diversity and a sustained form of growth."
The best is if you would exactly explain it your next post, giving good examples from real life equality solutions in unequal socio-economical systems
About those negative repercussions, I posted edit in my post here:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@logic/steemit-equality-solution-introducing-steem-power-limit-to-maxiumum-of-5000-and-daily-earnings-cap-to-5000sd
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It does not work because the vote not because they like it, but for the fact on what can earn?
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Every great leap forward in our species development and evolution, whether on the micro personal level or macro global level began and still begins with an "I BELIEVE...." statement.
WHAT is believed or HOW it's going to happen are secondary considerations. As long as the WHY is right, nearly everything else is just craft.
Dr. Martin Luther King ...."I believe" The Wright Bros BELIEVED they could fly. Muhammed Ali BELIEVED he was the Greatest of all time. ALL BEFORE IT HAPPENED.
Here's the key. You gotta get everyone else to believe what you believe too if you want to achieve anything worthwhile on a major and long lasting scale.
This is just my pre-amble to say that Steemit, I believe will grow organically, and more importantly nothing will stop it's growth so long as its core beliefs align with those of it's early adaptors who will spread the word becuase it's their belief and passion too.... to the early majority who will want to be a part of where all the cool people are. Once you have reached this critical mass or tipping point, then you are over the initial hump, and the strategy and vision for the platform needs to move to mid-to long term growth and development. There is a very strong possibility this will be shaped by the community itself and the relative influence and power of the "whales" founders will be checked. Quite simply, do anything to piss off your "kids" and they are not going to invite their friends around, keep doing it and they'll run away from home. Thats my tuppence :)
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Hello Laonie,
thank you for your vote of my post https://steemit.com/food/@knozaki2015/i-travel-the-world-part-17-porto-di-oneglia-featuring-jason-jason-bourne
you mentioned that new users are leaving the platform again. Do we have any data to back up that statement.
I know myself how hard it is to gain traction on Steemit. If you get whale love, you are good to go, but 95% of the users are earning close to 0.
I understand that most users are frustrated that it seems to be a lottery game (who gets the whale vote) but i think this is not true.
I think it would be great if the Repurationscore is somehow calculated into the earnings calculation. (for example the more high rep holders vote, the more the earnings go up, thus pushing a post from 50cents earning to maybe 5$, that would be a lot for many people here)
solely relying on he rep score will open the doors to attacks (users gaming the system)
but its a very interesting question, which way is the best. but anyway, even if its change to Rep score based payments, anybody trying really hard can make it on steemit.
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You have travelled a lot of places, i hope i can travel the world someday . :)
The rep scores are easy to manipulate, it's not a good idea to use that instead of steem power.
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@laonie It is very early days to make this kind of claims, however people who created the platform have the most to say, and I do respect the rules as i am business owner myself :)
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Agree, too early to say that.
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