It's a new account that tries to upvote quality comments that will probably be lost otherwise (several layers deep, etc.)
Steemit's reward pool is, indeed, a zero-sum game. For every over-rewarded whale, there are 1000 minnows who quit and do not buy Steem. That's why I liked your comment.
Making people work more for another to earn unjust reward is several layers removed from direct violence, but it's still basically an extrapolated form of slavery.
Well said. This discussion is fun to read =)
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"Making people work more for another to earn unjust reward is several layers removed from direct violence, but it's still basically an extrapolated form of slavery."
forcing somebody to do something at gun point is a layer or two away from violence.
"Steemit's reward pool is, indeed, a zero-sum game."
Payment for labor itself is a zero-sum game. That makes everything that comes out of capitalism one.
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It seems like you think I'm arguing with you; I wasn't. I don't get your first point.
Payment for labor is not zero sum, that's silly. If I pay you $10 to produce a widget and I sell that widget for $20, we both gained, as did whichever market participant wanted the widget enough to pay for it.
If all human labor were a zero sum game, we'd still be living in grass huts...or caves.
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Payment for labor is what I said.
I produce a $20 object out of goods worth $10. The value of my labor is $10. To get a profit the owner must pay me less than $10. If he does not his business tanks.
The only way to get profit is to pay less than the labor is worth. That is zero sum.
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There is no such thing as a $20 object. If you think so, we cannot reconcile, because you are adhering to demonstrably false nonsense like the labor theory of value.
It's just so easy to disprove your philosophical underpinnings a literal child could do it.
I have a glass of water in front of me. You try to sell me a bottle of water. How much of a good is it? 0$
Now I'm in the desert dying of thirst. How much of a good is it? $10000.
I can't believe anyone is still a communist past first grade.
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"There is no such thing as a $20 object. "
That's because money isn't based on value its based on price. Labor is used to measure value, like I said a few hundred times lmao retard.
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You can work for 20 days at making a post, 8 hours a day, that will have no value. It isn't labor that creates value if that labor isn't directed at making a product of value.
If the post you make that takes 160 hours consists of 10010001001010100 it will be valued according to the subjective benefits perceived by the consumers - curators in this instance. It will likely have 0 value.
If you post an incredibly insightful poem, or new item, even if it takes you little labor, it can have great value, even save lives.
The labor may be necessary to produce goods, but is only valuable in relation to the necessity and utility of the good.
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Services vs objects
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Labor is service.
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No, you and a few fringe nutjobs are the only retards who think you are able to calculate the "labor input" (a thing that does exist quantifiably) and calculate a "price output" like it's some kind of fucking formula.
Again I ask you to explain what use your useless theory has if the world runs on PRICE NOT "HYPOTHETICAL VALUE"?
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"Again I ask you to explain what use your useless theory has if the world runs on PRICE NOT "HYPOTHETICAL VALUE"?"
because the world runs on a flawed system bound to collapse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_contradictions_of_capital_accumulation
"No, you and a few fringe nutjobs are the only retards who think you are able to calculate the "labor input" (a thing that does exist quantifiably) and calculate a "price output" like it's some kind of fucking formula."
measure average labor taken, pay more if more labor is done. Easy. Societies have done far better on systems like that, I think it was anarchist spain that did something like that with coupons.
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OK, I sort of agree with your collapse thesis. Humanity currently deals with this (IMO, very unfairly and poorly) by hyperinlating all debts/contracts away every average ~40 years in a fiat-printing cycle.
So, insomuch as this cycle can continue indefinitely, it's only "bound to collapse over and over, according to plan".
What is your proposal for an alternative? Mine is separating the store of value from the transactional currency. Bitcoin was doing this nicely before Segwit.
Please directly address this:
What is "measure average labor taken"? What is average labor? In hours? Does a guy that lifts 1000 lbs an hour get 1 hour credit the same as a woman who lifts 500 lbs per hour? If so, why?
Can you define this please?
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"I can't believe anyone is still a communist past first grade."
you see that massive crash right there? It took 10-15 years to fix, even though they had far better technology. Do you want to know what caused it? The USSR turning capitalist.
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If you are even remotely intellectually honest, you would know that a grandiose claim like this with no evidence is specious.
Citation? Proof? A modicum of reasoning explaining your "assertion"?
That's such a bullshit claim. The anarchy created during change of goverments makes this the EXPECTED outcome. Why don't you post the graph for Venezuela here in 10 years and claim it's all because they took down that naughty Maduro?
LOL.
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Please extend your graph back 70 more years, and we'll see the impact of Russia turning communist.
It is the transformation of one system to another that is largely shown in your data, not specific to capitalism.
I assure you that the advent of communism was far more deadly.
Although, Russia has never been either communist or capitalist in more than name. Russia, like all nations, has always been a hybrid with a terrorist component, just like the USA.
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"I have a glass of water in front of me. You try to sell me a bottle of water. How much of a good is it? 0$
Now I'm in the desert dying of thirst. How much of a good is it? $10000."
price vs value, still.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
now read this or fuck off
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I already did and quoted it back to you. It's idiotic.
Basically the whole world accepts this except you.
Explain to me what good a THEORY OF VALUE IS HYPOTHETICALLY when THE WHOLD WORLD RUNS ON PRICE AND ACTUAL FACTS?
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the price is clearly a reflection of value, particularly in this case. The different value the exact same good can have reflects the actual world we live in.
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Price is not a reflection of value, it is a reflection of need.
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?
If you need something, then it is valuable to you. However, your statement is inaccurate, as not everything priced is necessary.
Example: I am not needy, I am wanty.
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That's not zero-sum, you're being deliberately reductive.
The owner has access to markets, marketing, distribution that allows him to get a much higher price for a good than the laborer does.
You can try to sell your wood furniture for $100 as a craftsman at a flea market and waste your time on sales, marketing, returns and all kinds of crap.
Or you can make it for Rooms To Go and let them handle that shit.
It's not always zero sum, it depends on the individual relationship.
Painting with such broad strokes (and incessantly arguing with everyone, even those philosophically disposed to your side) just pushes people away from your philosophy even more.
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"and incessantly arguing with everyone, even those philosophically disposed to your side"
What? You are arguing for capitalism, without an understanding of the labor theory of value either.
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"The owner has access to markets, marketing, distribution that allows him to get a much higher price for a good than the laborer does."
yes, because he has enough power to control the property. Also the majority of businesses pay somebody to do that.
"It's not always zero sum, it depends on the individual relationship."
either he gets what he gets the equivalent of what he produces or he doesn't.
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As someone that does work for wages, and has also worked for profit, as the gain in value of the products I transform through my labor, there is more to the division of labor than power.
Some folks are good at marketing, for example, and thus can add value to the production of a good without being abusive.
@lexiconical's point that you can sell your product at a flea market is a great example. The prices of goods at a flea market are lower than they are at retail stores, for various reasons, and these reasons impact why we produce goods and sell them the way most of us do.
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Value vs price
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You are clearly not being paid as shill by the hour, as you would flesh out your replies if you were.
That off my chest, price is determined by value, which is dependent on many things. As you point out, they are not the same thing.
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" I don't get your first point."
To sum it up, it doesn't matter how many layers of abstraction it has, the threat of violence is still violence.
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OK, what I didn't get was that I was clearly agreeing with you, and you seemed to be arguing with me.
I guess I needed to be more clear. You seem argumentative.
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"OK, what I didn't get was that I was clearly agreeing with you, and you seemed to be arguing with me."
it doesn't matter how much you agree with some of my points if I don't agree with those you add on. It seems like you only think about your position in this.
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No, I just have the social skills to realize that viewpoints that are not popular need to be delivered with some tact.
You have not developed this skill, and have turned a potential ally into someone that had to eviscerate your child-like "labor theory of value" nonsense.
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"You have not developed this skill, and have turned a potential ally into someone that had to eviscerate your child-like "labor theory of value" nonsense."
potential ally? I'm sorry, I only ally with people that have a basic understanding of society.
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You, much like the ludicrous and murderous economic theories you ascribe to, will continue to never have any allies. Thank god for the fact your idiocy remains confined to the fringe.
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"It seems like you think I'm arguing with you"
That might not have been your goal but debate is one of the few ways to achieve a true understanding of anything.
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It was neither the goal or the outcome, and your deliberately reductive, absolutist argumentation style is intellectually dishonest. (See my other comment on zero-sum, which you falsely asserted all commerce is against demonstrable, clear fact).
In your world, all laborers are apparently equally skilled at sales, a completely different and unrelated skills. The division of labor is not a thing you believe in, apparently.
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"and your deliberately reductive, absolutist argumentation style is intellectually dishonest. (See my other comment on zero-sum, which you falsely asserted all commerce is against demonstrable, clear fact)."
You overcomplicate basic concepts. The value of an object is what it takes to create it, not the amount society wishes to pay for it. In an economy without waste it would directly hit this value. The problem is that in markets either too much or too little is created, because people are always in search of profit. You speak of this problem from a capitalist standpoint and refuse to see it from any other.
Humans produce only have the ability to produce so many resources. A single person only produces so much value. If this value, measured in the amount of labor it takes to produce (this is the only real measurement of value), is not matched the worker is gaining more than he produces or less. Profit can only come out of labor. This means with profit it is impossible for the worker to get everything he produces. In other words there is only so much labor, and it is split between the ruling class and the workers who produce it. This fits neatly into the definition of zero sum.
Opportunities do not affect the value of labor, only the price. From a value standpoint this makes the relationship authoritarian and oppressive.
I never argued about price, just value. You are the one being deliberately reductive. We are debating economics so we must find the value that connects all systems, not reduce it to a neo-liberal economic ideal.
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"The value of an object is what it takes to create it, not the amount society wishes to pay for it."
No, no it's not. We can have no further productive discussion, as you are a full on communist if you believe this. It has been proven wrong time and time again. You may as well argue that 1+1+4.
It's demonstrably false everywhere. Like, literally everywhere you look. Coach bags, Lamborghinis. It's proven wrong every second of every day.
You're completely ignoring that the quality of a salesman affects the price, and that sales is a different skill from production. You're ignoring basic reality in front of you.
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you are talking about price, not the value. I am talking about value, you just have zero understanding lmao
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No, you're just a fool who can't see what you call value is irrelevant. Nobody fucking cares about your made up value.
WHAT IS THE PRACTICAL USE OF ASSIGNING VALUES WHEN THE REAL WORLD IGNORES THEM BECAUSE PRICE IS THE REAL MARKET?
GIVE ME ONE USE!
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"In your world, all laborers are apparently equally skilled at sales, a completely different and unrelated skills. The division of labor is not a thing you believe in, apparently."
nope. Wrong. That is dishonest and is assuming much.
The value of everything is the amount of socially necessary labor taken to create it. I don't care about the price you can sell it at.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
here is some reading on it.
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Yeah, from your link:
"At present, this concept is usually associated with Marxian economics"
Ah, right, those economics that have always failed and killed hundreds of millions and no country has ever prospered from. Got it.
Again, a child with a water bottle analogy can destroy this whole discredited "theory".
Even if you were right about value, it would be absolutely meaningless, because the world runs on price. Value is functionally irrelevant.
What possible usefulness is a theory that tries to assign value and literally ignores price? Price is the only value that has ever been market-tested, every other "value" is speculation and opinion. You are not the one who decides what an acceptable mark-up for labor is. You are not the one who decides what an hour of a carpenter's time is worth. Therefore you can never be the one to decide what a table that takes him one hour to make is worth, only the market. By your own theory, value can never be determined, which makes it even more useless as a theory.
Your economic views aren't even internally consistent. You act like price is scientifically deducible, yet your only way to determine it is by estimating or with consensus. That's a laugh.
PS - You ignore this part in your own links: "including the labor necessary to develop any real capital used in the production." That's why the owner often makes more than the laborer relative to current effort.
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We can trade video links all day:
Your side gets destroyed every time, because usually you grow out of silly views that have no practical value after you get out of your junior year.
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"Your economic views aren't even internally consistent. You act like price is scientifically deducible, yet your only way to determine it is by estimating or with consensus. That's a laugh."
No, but value is.
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What good is it if it has no practical application?
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"Price is the only value that has ever been market-tested, every other "value" is speculation and opinion"
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works
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How many countries is anarchy working in, currently?
Oh, zero? Right, thanks.
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so far my citations have hundreds of examples throughout history, but you can't even find one. Fuck off
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Made a false claim with no citation: check.
Then claimed that his false citation was actually hundreds of actual citations: check.
Provided no argument: check.
You're a lunatic troll. Get back in your cave, commie.
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"You are not the one who decides what an hour of a carpenter's time is worth"
That's because his time is worth the same amount as any other. Every job that is needed for society to function should be treated the same.
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See, the fact that you can say this with a straight face is what makes your whole argument such a joke.
Explain to me exactly how a heart surgeon and a Starbucks barista are equally valuable. Or a bus driver.
Are you totally ignorant of the fact that out of 1 million people, far more are qualified to be bus drivers than heart surgeons?
Do you walk into jewelry stores and rant that all stones are equally valuable and you should be able to buy a diamond for the same price as gravel?
You're barely worth responding to. You are just an ideologue with no reasoning skills. You will never even consider whether your position could be flawed. I don't know why I bother.
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