Try and watch the video before you comment this time, mkay. It is time for flagging myths to be debunked and talked about once again...If you don't feel comfortable with this subject, the door is to your left.
VIDEO: STEEM Rant #1: Flagging & Reward Pool Myths
You mention that the flags are necessary or else the pool would shrink from those with higher stake using it to their best advantage. I have heard this since coming here and it has never sat right with me. Let me explain why.
Those who have a lot of stake received it in one of a few ways.
Either they were blessed enough to have been part of the initial mine (right place/right time/right knowledge).
They got in at the start and received phenomenal support from the initial miners/buyers of Steem and stuck with it.
They invested heavily out of pocket.
All three scenarios describe deserving people who came by their stake honestly and through hard work. And before anyone reading this tries to say that the initial miners had it easy, Pffft. I read that thread where it took place. Not only did they have the knowledge on how to do it, but they actually had to overcome barriers set in place by the founders in their attempt to limit the amount mined not in their hands. There were a couple people who were active in helping the others on those boards work past those barriers, and if not for them the concentration would be in fewer hands than what we see now.
So all three positions have this large amount of stake, and like all of us (including low stake holders such as myself), they have to adhere to the math calculations dividing the pool up. It seems to me that it is not their fault that the math is what it is. That blame belongs to those who created the pool economy, and thereafter to the top witnesses who have tinkered with it. I would ask why those who have large stakes shouldn't expect higher rewards in compensation for their work/investment? It seems to me that if they are told they should settle for less than their share (an equal share to those of lower holdings percentage wise) that for the investor class who would see Steem solely as an investment vehicle as most of the crypto world sees crypto, they would not be prone to sinking their money here.
I have been the beneficiary of several larger holders interest, and have been thankful. What makes it so special is that they have given it willingly, from them to me. I have no right to it, and it doesn't sit right with me either the idea that the smaller accounts could feel entitled to a larger share at the expense of those more fortunate (however they got that way).
The pool itself is an impediment for many investors who have no wish to blog/post, as daily their investment would be watered down by the daily pool creation of Steem. Taking from them if they decide to come with their investment because they brought to much would seem to further give those with money a pause in doing so.
We need the investors. Not a thousand or two like me who have thrown 400.00+ into this. Real investors who see possibilities with the chain.
Ultimately if someone with a lot of stake is making large payouts on their holdings, they are not to blame. It is the pool math that is faulty, and those with the power of that math.
Also, there are not any POW coins known to me that pay a consistent 15% interest on their vested stake. That 15% is earned just like a savings account whether they post or not. A consistent 15% ROI would make most stock market investors salivate.
Thanks for that observation, @practicalthought! The 15% was from a post about Devcoin. Do you have a source that could be provided to the author to correct his post.
I do not have a source other than my observation. I have both rented and been delegated SP and have observed how much interest they have received. Currently I am the recipient of a delegation of 500SP. It was delegated on Oct 6th and in that time it has grown to 501.328
On my last delegation rental I calculated that every 1000 SP would grow close to 2 Steem per month. Having the delegations made it more noticeable because it remained a fixed number without curation/author rewards dripping in.
After asking the original author (@cpol) about the 15% he explained he got the info from the original white paper. Perhaps things have changed over the many hard forks. Someone like @timcliff may be able to clarify that.
In the whitepaper look at it: https://steem.io/steem-whitepaper.pdf page 7 at the end of the page in the section "Steem Power (SP)" it says "SP holders also earn new tokens based on the balance of SP that remains vested. SP holders are paid 15%
of the yearly inflation. The amount of new tokens they receive is directly proportional to the amount of SP they hold relative to the total amount of vested SP across all users."
It come up again on page 21 subsection "Current Allocation & Supply" it says: "Of the new tokens that are generated, 75% go to fund the reward pool, which is split between authors and curators. Another 15% of the new tokens are awarded to holders of SP. The remaining 10% pays for the witnesses to power the blockchain."
That means 15% of the reward pool, not interest on the SP itself.
15% would be 150 SP per year per 1000 Steem powered up. Using the 500 SP delegated I mentioned before, that would come out to 6.25 SP growth monthly if it was 15%, not taking into account the compounding affect. As shown in the case of the delegation I have received, it has only grown 1.348 since I received it on 10/06.
I get what you are saying, however the types of investors that will make this chain strong are not the typical point traders. And as I mentioned, those who have are rightly wary when they hear they should do with less because they already have more. There are other vehicles of investment they could turn to that does not have that form of possible loss. Steem has a lot of potential to evolve past many of the issues the other chains are having due to the speculation coupled with the bubble cause by exchanges and fiat. Bringing in large investments from those thinking long term would go far in pushing what is possible into reality.
I read it, and still stand by my beliefs on this. I understand your position, but the economics and morals are two separate realities. I can understand why one would wish the two to be intertwined in such a way that one does not exist without the other, but human nature seems to naturally shy away from such a definitive outcome.
In your post, you mention let the whales leave. That it doesn't matter if the value drops to .01 each, because we would all scoop it up. Once again, I wish that were true but not so certain it is. I ask that we examine the current downturn that is taking place in the cryptosphere. It is taking place because of an extraction of money from the entire crypto economy into fiat. This in turn is flooding the market with more supply than demand which is causing the prices to drop hard. If the agreement by the masses was that any coin was much more valuable than where it is falling, we would have seen it stabilize or rise to meet that level. One of our very own Steemians here who has an understanding of markets(@quickfingersluc) refers to this battle of value as the argument.
As we see in any market, the large money is really the determinant of the value of any commodity or store of value. When they withdraw their money, it falls. So the question then becomes what is left if they withdraw their investment?
Not morally, but economically? How many are still using when their votes are dust and payouts are dust? If and when it reaches that point, what separates this beta experiment from any other social site where people of like mind can interact and hope to influence those into their particular mind sets and beliefs?
I understand that human nature sucks at times when so many put total greed ahead of others welfare. I also understand at times that many can become oppressive when others are not subscribing to their brand of living. As one who subscribes to a more voluntary way of doing things I totally get all of this. As one who is called himself through his own corrupt nature I so get this. Sadly, the economy here and what is possible though depends on large investments if one wishes to see it scale to make meaningful impacts.
Since I have been here, I have seen my out of pocket investment grow by 300% while allowing me to give to others through wallet transfers almost what I have invested. It has also allowed me to give almost what I have invested to others whose posts I have upvoted. And it was thanks to every person who invested here that gave that value to my intent. Especially to those with large amounts of stake here. Even if I do not approve of methods of conduct employed by some, I do not allow that to skew my understanding that it is through others greed that I am allowed to not only grow but give. That it has also allowed those who have large investments here that have been generous to me to affect how much I have grown thanks to ALL of the large investors.
I had grown very cynical in the last 10 years of my life. All my caring and generosity skewed into bitterness. That has slowly changed in this last year through finding Steemit, and so many heroes here. And finding Lewis and VOP. I have found so many bright beacons of light who have set examples to remind me. And their ability to remind me and so many others is in large part due to agreed upon valuations that never would have been what they were/are without large investors.
Only time will tell I guess. I have 4 friends that bought steem this week! None of them could ever afford to do that when it was 1 dollar, and especially up at 8.
I believe in Steem, for the long term, I'm not here to make some fast profits, I have like a 10 year vision. I was here at the beginning as well, so I've lived through the "lean times" as well as the Mooning.
Hopefully everyone uses this drop in price to invest what little they can. All us little investors add up.
Thank you for making this rant and the deep explainations for new users here. This was pretty eye-opening for me.
And Also thanks a lot for all the users fighting against abuse!
@lyndsaybowes, it was very interesting for me to watch the video. I find the information in it to be very useful.
I am sure that angels and other mystic creatures that live on the blockchain will help the good Steemians...
Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 5.433 which ranks you at #623 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has improved 23 places in the last three days (old rank 646).
In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 254 contributions, your post is ranked at #12.
Shit sometimes happens, Bernie. With my upvote worth soo little these days my thought was to hang out on the #introduceyourself feed to put a cent on any dust that could be found, so as to bring their payout up to 2 cents.
To my surprise there were a number of posts found that were mis-categorizing their posts by using the tag. My thought was that my reward was so small that a good use of it would be to give warning flags to them (with an explanation why) in the hope that they may change their practise.
To my surprize arcange (a witness which has my support) had upvoted one such post. In my comment explaining my flag, arcange was asked why they supported the post. They replied that they had missed my observation of the mis-categorizing of the post, removed thier vote, and thanked me for bringing it to their attention.
Maybe you and FTG just need to communicate better, Bernie. 😎
You mention that the flags are necessary or else the pool would shrink from those with higher stake using it to their best advantage. I have heard this since coming here and it has never sat right with me. Let me explain why.
Those who have a lot of stake received it in one of a few ways.
Either they were blessed enough to have been part of the initial mine (right place/right time/right knowledge).
They got in at the start and received phenomenal support from the initial miners/buyers of Steem and stuck with it.
They invested heavily out of pocket.
All three scenarios describe deserving people who came by their stake honestly and through hard work. And before anyone reading this tries to say that the initial miners had it easy, Pffft. I read that thread where it took place. Not only did they have the knowledge on how to do it, but they actually had to overcome barriers set in place by the founders in their attempt to limit the amount mined not in their hands. There were a couple people who were active in helping the others on those boards work past those barriers, and if not for them the concentration would be in fewer hands than what we see now.
So all three positions have this large amount of stake, and like all of us (including low stake holders such as myself), they have to adhere to the math calculations dividing the pool up. It seems to me that it is not their fault that the math is what it is. That blame belongs to those who created the pool economy, and thereafter to the top witnesses who have tinkered with it. I would ask why those who have large stakes shouldn't expect higher rewards in compensation for their work/investment? It seems to me that if they are told they should settle for less than their share (an equal share to those of lower holdings percentage wise) that for the investor class who would see Steem solely as an investment vehicle as most of the crypto world sees crypto, they would not be prone to sinking their money here.
I have been the beneficiary of several larger holders interest, and have been thankful. What makes it so special is that they have given it willingly, from them to me. I have no right to it, and it doesn't sit right with me either the idea that the smaller accounts could feel entitled to a larger share at the expense of those more fortunate (however they got that way).
The pool itself is an impediment for many investors who have no wish to blog/post, as daily their investment would be watered down by the daily pool creation of Steem. Taking from them if they decide to come with their investment because they brought to much would seem to further give those with money a pause in doing so.
We need the investors. Not a thousand or two like me who have thrown 400.00+ into this. Real investors who see possibilities with the chain.
Ultimately if someone with a lot of stake is making large payouts on their holdings, they are not to blame. It is the pool math that is faulty, and those with the power of that math.
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Ok, here is another way to look at it: With any other coins, or investment for that matter, how does one get their "roi"?
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Also, there are not any POW coins known to me that pay a consistent 15% interest on their vested stake. That 15% is earned just like a savings account whether they post or not. A consistent 15% ROI would make most stock market investors salivate.
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It's actually around 2.4% apr, compounding, not 15%. Better than nothing for sure, but not a strong investment vehicle on its own merits.
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Thanks for that observation, @practicalthought! The 15% was from a post about Devcoin. Do you have a source that could be provided to the author to correct his post.
For your interest the original post was....
https://steemit.com/busy/@cpol/steem-devcoin-and-devsteem-what-are-they-and-how-they-connect-with-each-other
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I do not have a source other than my observation. I have both rented and been delegated SP and have observed how much interest they have received. Currently I am the recipient of a delegation of 500SP. It was delegated on Oct 6th and in that time it has grown to 501.328
On my last delegation rental I calculated that every 1000 SP would grow close to 2 Steem per month. Having the delegations made it more noticeable because it remained a fixed number without curation/author rewards dripping in.
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Thanks for the clarification @practicalthought.
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After asking the original author (@cpol) about the 15% he explained he got the info from the original white paper. Perhaps things have changed over the many hard forks. Someone like @timcliff may be able to clarify that.
Reply from @cpol:
In the whitepaper look at it: https://steem.io/steem-whitepaper.pdf page 7 at the end of the page in the section "Steem Power (SP)" it says "SP holders also earn new tokens based on the balance of SP that remains vested. SP holders are paid 15%
of the yearly inflation. The amount of new tokens they receive is directly proportional to the amount of SP they hold relative to the total amount of vested SP across all users."
It come up again on page 21 subsection "Current Allocation & Supply" it says: "Of the new tokens that are generated, 75% go to fund the reward pool, which is split between authors and curators. Another 15% of the new tokens are awarded to holders of SP. The remaining 10% pays for the witnesses to power the blockchain."
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That means 15% of the reward pool, not interest on the SP itself.
15% would be 150 SP per year per 1000 Steem powered up. Using the 500 SP delegated I mentioned before, that would come out to 6.25 SP growth monthly if it was 15%, not taking into account the compounding affect. As shown in the case of the delegation I have received, it has only grown 1.348 since I received it on 10/06.
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I get what you are saying, however the types of investors that will make this chain strong are not the typical point traders. And as I mentioned, those who have are rightly wary when they hear they should do with less because they already have more. There are other vehicles of investment they could turn to that does not have that form of possible loss. Steem has a lot of potential to evolve past many of the issues the other chains are having due to the speculation coupled with the bubble cause by exchanges and fiat. Bringing in large investments from those thinking long term would go far in pushing what is possible into reality.
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Read this (and the comments) at your leisure, and get back to me with your thoughts either here, or on that article.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@lyndsaybowes/the-roi-they-cry
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I read it, and still stand by my beliefs on this. I understand your position, but the economics and morals are two separate realities. I can understand why one would wish the two to be intertwined in such a way that one does not exist without the other, but human nature seems to naturally shy away from such a definitive outcome.
In your post, you mention let the whales leave. That it doesn't matter if the value drops to .01 each, because we would all scoop it up. Once again, I wish that were true but not so certain it is. I ask that we examine the current downturn that is taking place in the cryptosphere. It is taking place because of an extraction of money from the entire crypto economy into fiat. This in turn is flooding the market with more supply than demand which is causing the prices to drop hard. If the agreement by the masses was that any coin was much more valuable than where it is falling, we would have seen it stabilize or rise to meet that level. One of our very own Steemians here who has an understanding of markets(@quickfingersluc) refers to this battle of value as the argument.
As we see in any market, the large money is really the determinant of the value of any commodity or store of value. When they withdraw their money, it falls. So the question then becomes what is left if they withdraw their investment?
Not morally, but economically? How many are still using when their votes are dust and payouts are dust? If and when it reaches that point, what separates this beta experiment from any other social site where people of like mind can interact and hope to influence those into their particular mind sets and beliefs?
I understand that human nature sucks at times when so many put total greed ahead of others welfare. I also understand at times that many can become oppressive when others are not subscribing to their brand of living. As one who subscribes to a more voluntary way of doing things I totally get all of this. As one who is called himself through his own corrupt nature I so get this. Sadly, the economy here and what is possible though depends on large investments if one wishes to see it scale to make meaningful impacts.
Since I have been here, I have seen my out of pocket investment grow by 300% while allowing me to give to others through wallet transfers almost what I have invested. It has also allowed me to give almost what I have invested to others whose posts I have upvoted. And it was thanks to every person who invested here that gave that value to my intent. Especially to those with large amounts of stake here. Even if I do not approve of methods of conduct employed by some, I do not allow that to skew my understanding that it is through others greed that I am allowed to not only grow but give. That it has also allowed those who have large investments here that have been generous to me to affect how much I have grown thanks to ALL of the large investors.
I had grown very cynical in the last 10 years of my life. All my caring and generosity skewed into bitterness. That has slowly changed in this last year through finding Steemit, and so many heroes here. And finding Lewis and VOP. I have found so many bright beacons of light who have set examples to remind me. And their ability to remind me and so many others is in large part due to agreed upon valuations that never would have been what they were/are without large investors.
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Only time will tell I guess. I have 4 friends that bought steem this week! None of them could ever afford to do that when it was 1 dollar, and especially up at 8.
I believe in Steem, for the long term, I'm not here to make some fast profits, I have like a 10 year vision. I was here at the beginning as well, so I've lived through the "lean times" as well as the Mooning.
Hopefully everyone uses this drop in price to invest what little they can. All us little investors add up.
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Thank you for making this rant and the deep explainations for new users here. This was pretty eye-opening for me.
And Also thanks a lot for all the users fighting against abuse!
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Thank you for having an open mind about this information <3 Have a great day @tibfox!
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great info..thanks <3
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@lyndsaybowes, it was very interesting for me to watch the video. I find the information in it to be very useful.
I am sure that angels and other mystic creatures that live on the blockchain will help the good Steemians...
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My feeling is that Lyndsay is such an angel. 😎
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@novacadian, the time will show who the Angels on the Steem blickchain are.
Posted using Partiko Android
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Hi @lyndsaybowes!
Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 5.433 which ranks you at #623 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has improved 23 places in the last three days (old rank 646).
In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 254 contributions, your post is ranked at #12.
Evaluation of your UA score:
Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server
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@lyndsaybowes can you connect with me on discord (novacadian#6070) to discuss an account for my son-in-common-law?
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Yep, done and done. Also, well done on getting off facebook, look forward to opening your son in common law's account for him. lol.
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When you twist shit around, it may fool some, but it doesn't work on me, sorry hun.
@fulltimegeek is the least racist man I've ever met. You sound just like a donkey right now. The racism card. C'mon, be original at least.
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Shit sometimes happens, Bernie. With my upvote worth soo little these days my thought was to hang out on the #introduceyourself feed to put a cent on any dust that could be found, so as to bring their payout up to 2 cents.
To my surprise there were a number of posts found that were mis-categorizing their posts by using the tag. My thought was that my reward was so small that a good use of it would be to give warning flags to them (with an explanation why) in the hope that they may change their practise.
To my surprize arcange (a witness which has my support) had upvoted one such post. In my comment explaining my flag, arcange was asked why they supported the post. They replied that they had missed my observation of the mis-categorizing of the post, removed thier vote, and thanked me for bringing it to their attention.
Maybe you and FTG just need to communicate better, Bernie. 😎
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Mistaken assumption on my part then. 😐
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