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in steemit •  6 years ago 

Steemit reputation is a broken system. Can it be fixed? It’s not mentioned in the original Steem white paper, but I’ve always assumed that reputation is meant to be an indicator of how much your contributions are appreciated. Every new account starts with a reputation of 25. As you get votes that will increase based on some combination of the voter’s own reputation and the size of their vote. Reputation is based on some sort of logarithmic scale so that each step is harder to achieve than the last. Flagging also affects your reputation. It can even go negative and below a certain level your content will be hidden by default. This is the intended means to deal with spammers. Something in the algorithm means that only a person with a higher reputation can reduce yours by flagging. I guess this is intended to reduce possible impact by malicious users.

It took me about a year to get to a reputation of 70 and another year to get to 71! I’m okay with that as it should not be easy. A high reputation should mean something, but the dreaded ‘bid bots’ and other forms of abuse have corrupted it.

The current highest reputation (that I know of) is held by a certain Korean ‘crypto analyst’. He has 32,500 followers, but at least 90% of his votes came from himself and another account that he most probably controls. So his reputation is not based on what the wider community thinks of him. I doubt he cares as he’s just taking the money and barely interacts with anyone. He’s not making as much as he used to, but he keeps up a steady stream of mostly automated posts to maintain some income.

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A more recent example is this guy who has tended to buy massive votes on each of his posts. That’s built him a following of nearly 13,000. His reputation is mostly based on what the ‘bots’ voted and not his followers. Could it be that all those followers don't actually support him? I have flagged him before, but I can't really dent those rewards. It seems selfish to hog the trending page like this.

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I do get automated votes from various projects, but all I do is give them a small delegation that helps them support others. I think there needs to be some change as new users see these high ranking accounts and assume that what they do is the best course, even if it can be harmful to the platform as a whole. The white paper does have a section on voting abuse.

Fortunately, any work that is getting a large concentration of votes is also gaining the most scrutiny (publicity). Through the addition of negative-voting it is possible for many smaller stakeholders to nullify the voting power of collusive groups or defecting large stakeholders. Furthermore, large-stakeholders have more to lose if the currency falls in value due to abuse than they might gain by voting for themselves. In fact, honest large stakeholders are likely to be more effective by policing abuse and using negative voting than they would be by voting for smaller contributions.

The smaller stakeholders have not been able to counter the abuse as it’s just too big and they also risk retaliation what can destroy their own reputation.

So what can be done? My thought is that the reputation algorithm could be changed to give a more balanced scale. Some will say that ‘bot’ votes should be excluded, but there may be ways around this. One way would be to make the influence of each account on reputation decrease over time. So if one big account gives you a vote each day it would have less impact each time and possibly zero by the end of a week. Maybe it could re-charge if they stopped for a while. I’ve not worked out the exact details. The result would be that you would need support from a broad range of accounts, each with a good amount of SP to get a high reputation. This is something like the difference between the Trending and Hot pages. The latter gives a better idea of what content is actually popular.

This change should also apply to flagging so that an attack by a single user cannot affect your reputation too much. Any real abuse will attract flags from multiple users.

There are a few possible issues with my idea that come to mind:

  • It would add to the work required by witnesses. I assume they do the current reputation calculation. They would have to keep track of values representing reputation impact for each user who is voting on an account. Could that be too much extra load?
  • It would really need all existing reputations to be re-calculated. That involves tracking many millions of transactions, but it would only need to be done once and it’s better to do it before Steem grows much more.
  • Many of us would end up with a lower reputation. I don’t really mind this. It’s just a number, but it should be giving a real indication of your value to the platform. The real stars who get a lot of community support should be up the top.

I’ve not found much discussion of reputation in the Steem GitHub. There’s this and this on using it to prevent spam, but the developers admit that reputation can be gamed.

What do you think? Is it a real problem? We could propose something on Github, but it needs fleshing out with more details on how it should work, if it's even viable.

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I agree with most of what you have said here. I have worked pretty hard to get my reputation to where it is, but I wouldn't mind if they decreased it as long as they were doing it to level the playing field. Does reputation really gain you anything though? I think some people look at it when they are considering following you, but not as many anymore. I am actually curious to dig into my vote rewards and calculate the percentage that comes from projects I have delegated to vs. "organic votes". I have a feeling it is pretty low and that is sad to me.

The reduced respect for rep is largely down to the abuse. It has stopped being useful. That's why it should change.

I thought Steem UA was supposed to help with that, but so far I don't think it has picked up support like a lot of people hoped it would.

I rank well on that, but many won't really be aware of it.

@steem-ua has a unique approach to fixing the problem of reputation! I don’t quite understand all of the metrics that go into it, but I believe they are the most successful project striving to change the way reputation works.

I don't think steem-ua is a very good system at all, it is just buying a vote by any other name and it funnels all the benefits upwards. It's supposed to be based on follower networks which are comparatively stable, but votes on my account have ranged from 0.04-0.24 stus in the space of a few days. Having the steem-ua signature all over your blog is not great either. I've withdrawn my delegation.

I haven’t kept up with it to much to be honest, I didn’t much mind the comments on my posts... I think the idea is at least a step in the right direction, but I definitely see what you’re saying about funneling rewards upwards. Could hurt the noobies with the delegation program. I will look into it more thoroughly, this was just kind of an off the cuff mention of an alternative. They appear to be the only ones developing an alternative, no? Not saying that alone is good reason to support a service btw

Appreciated :)

I believe they may have a better system, but we would need it to be displayed on profiles for it to be really useful. Maybe Steem Plus could do that.

You mean fixed like this?
https://steemit.com/dregs/@dregs/that-revolving-door

Sure, but it still upvotes lol

I’m not sure what to take away from this, tbh

As in: someone's vote farm is fully capable of increasing its UA score. Receives upvotes as long as the account delegates to @steem-ua.

Reputation is not broken.
It perhaps has the wrong name, though.

It really just adds up all votes you have ever gotten.
It does not mean some are more reputable than others - the main idea was to be able to block users with a negative reputation.

Personally, I think a high rep combined with little Steem Power should be frowned upon.

I see some good people with that combination, but it may be due to needing the funds for other things. The correlation between size of votes and quality is skewed by 'bots', so the rep system does not work as intended. Changing it should not be a big deal as it does not directly affect income, but I think it could be useful. Either that or we add some other ways to get an indication of a user's standing.

My own rep grows very slowly. I see it go up by a few thousandths of a point each week.

Changing the name into something else than 'reputation' should work as well and should be the easiest solution.

I did not say they were bad people, but bad Steemians, btw.

Rep seems to be a STEEM thing, not a Steemit one as its on busy and all the other interfaces. Making changes would need another fork I guess?

With it being independent of interface, how could a change be made if it were to happen?

I assume it's something on the witness nodes that has to change. I just think that if we are going to have it then it should mean more

I agree. No need to have a faulty system. The many flag wars etc. should be addressed.

How important is reputation? Does an account's power to flag and destroy another account come from the reputation or the amount of SP, or a combination of both? I don't fully understand how that works.
Leaving that aside, what purpose does the reputation have? You can decide if you like someone's writing or other contribution to the community, and then you can check a bit further and assess whether this is someone you want to have much to do with. If they are behaving in a way that you don't like or feel isn't helpful for the community, you can go beyond not giving them any attention to supporting things like @steemflagrewards. Reputation is just one signifier - (-10) rep might alert you, but on the other hand, it could be that account has been on the receiving end of a heavy duty flag.
I like your ideas about reputation coming through support from a wide variety of accounts.

If your rep is higher, your flags will damage reputation lower than yours based on your SP in addition to removing monetary rewards.

If your rep is lower, you can only remove pending rewards.

Any upvote, as long as you are >=25 rep, increases your reputation.

At least, that's what I've been told.

The one thing I never was that fond about with Steemit is the libertarian foundation. I would have liked some more democratic features. Rich does not mean a good leader or a just person.

At least some of us have managed to build some influence without having to spend lots of money

True and it should be so too. I like your proposal. Anything actually that could level out some of the inequality. I know the system is based on proof of stake, but the reputation system is kind of glued on to the rest of the system and might be organised after other priciples closer to one profile - one vote. I know everything can be gamed, but still.

I think one truth in life is that it will never be fair, the powerful will abuse their power and the good will hurt others by accident through good intention. That seems to be the system that has never changed as long as the human animal is involved.

I always liked a good misanthropist! I do agree that life is pretty void of justice, just look at the animal world. But that is why we humans always discusses rules and games instead of life. I believe that you to a certain extent can create rules that can at least make the circumstances a little bit better, and a little bit more just. Not sure it will happen to Steemit though :)

As I understand it reputation is an important part of blockchain. I base this supposition on having read a book called Blockchain Revolution earlier in the year. But if it can be hacked like this, it should be tweaked. Proportional representation?

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  ·  6 years ago (edited)

You have to adapt when people game the system. This is why I think they should change or scrap the trending page

I've seen certain new joiner's rep rise faster than a helicopter but hardly engage with people at all. I've also seen high rep Steemians with just a few hundred SP in their wallet. So it really makes you wonder, what is the purpose of rep here?

the rep system has been broke since bidbots came to play. rep is purchases (although mine is not and im proud of that) this is why steem-ua came into play

Complicated issue but thanks for your thoughts. Reputation is a precious thing... like brand image.

For me .. reputation represents the amount of effort I'm putting into my account. If I don't post and engage on the platform it stagnates.

As for the two you mentioned, I've looked at the content of both of them. The second one at least writes some real content. The first one tends to be almost template posts with some changes for what ever coin he's shilling that post and by the nature of the topic, no need to actually be right.

When I look at others accounts, I take a look at how long they have been on the platform, their rep, their posts, commenting activity and their wallet activity. All the factors are subjective but they are part of the story of who we are on the platform. That story is the real reputation for each of us.

Those were just a couple of examples of accounts with artificially inflated reps. I see others with a rep over 70 who don't buy votes and may not even have much Steem. No single number can represent all an account does, but if there is one visible then it should at least mean something.

Wow you got to 70 in a year?! I've been on here over a year and I'm still stuck at 63, but I'm probably not as popular as you and I'm still just plankton. I always forget about the number until someone mentions it and then I see I'm still low 60's, oh well? I can't worry about it, I'll just keep sharing my art and my days in a way I enjoy and if I ever reach 70 great, if not as long as Steemit still exists I'll still keep plugging along.

I think I was helped by being so active, but I don't get the regular big votes that others benefit from.

As you've correctly pointed out, the reputation score is an imperfect indicator. It is truly a dilemma.

It would really need all existing reputations to be re-calculated. That involves tracking many millions of transactions, but it would only need to be done once and it’s better to do it before Steem grows much more.

To reach an honest & meaningful reputation, we would also need to consider something like this:
when a clique (a small exclusive group) of powerful whales automatically upvote and reward each other.

That probably can't be stopped or taken into account with respect to achieving a meaningful reputation. So we would be reviewing millions of transactions and overlooking that elephant in the room.

Without addressing that I wouldn't want to see a huge project started. But, I personally would not have a problem with some reforms. Such as completely eliminating automatic voting and voting bots. But as long as it is possible, it requires blind optimism to imagine it will stop.

My primary concern is the blog platform itself. I would like to see more options with regard to the flexibility and presentation of our individual blogs -- I wish we could get closer to a Wordpress standard in terms of individuality and presentation. Make blogging on steemit popular simply because it is a great platform with lots of options.

My rep is where it is thanks in great part to my year in @sndbox. The quality of my post didn't suddenly change when I got a sndbox fellowship, it was the nature of the people voting on my posts. (Although sndbox gave me the chance to do some long-form posts I otherwise could not have done.)

Still, when all is said and done, the most important thing the average steemer can control as an individuals is the quality of his or her posts.


Meanwhile, the viability of Steem itself (and cryptos in general) is being severely tested.

source: https://prices.org/Steem/


Reputation Broken


Just to lighten the mood

There's no perfect system, but it should be possible to try a few scenarios to see what gives better results. I expect people will still try to game it, but reducing the impact of those few big accounts should help.

Many thanks for kicking this discussion off. I think, reputation should be seen in the broader context of value creation on Steem. @charitycurator just started a discussion on this yesterday. https://steemit.com/charity/@charitycurator/charitycurator-progress-report-or-7-or-what-s-been-going-on#@impactn/re-charitycurator-charitycurator-progress-report-or-7-or-what-s-been-going-on-20181211t154019207z
Since individual user reputation is crucial for the identification of real value produced in the Steem-system, I think it should be underpinned by three pillars:

  • Quality of posts
  • Trust within the community, e.g. measured by the number of community members upvoting posts
  • Conformity of user-actions with a code of conduct

To fix the existing system - or develop a new one - we think two things should be done:

  • Examine the existing algorithm
  • Establish a code of conduct and governance structures having the ability to identify and react to abuse

Since in our opinion these tasks are crucial for the value of what is produced within the Steem ecosystem we would be willing to participate in these actions and take an active part in coordination.

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Apparently, you can buy reputation, just like IRL.

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