Discussion to change witness voting procedures

in steemit •  7 years ago  (edited)

This is an open witness discussion topic article with a few suggestions for voting procedures.

Who has voted for witnesses? Do you know what they are, how they work? Good, as I am not going to go into that here, I just want to raise some questions.

There are 20 top witnesses who process the majority of blocks and take the majority of the witness rewards but, there is a centralization problem in this group as it is very difficult to shift the core players yet, they are stake-based voted positions. With the current setup, it is relatively easy to collude on votes and vote trade among witnesses who are also commonly, among the highest vested accounts on the platform. This is a risk.

So, what can be done?

Here are some ideas to discuss and some basic reasons behind them as I see it.

Reduce votes.

 
Currently, there are 20 top witness position yet, every account has 30 votes. This means the largest accounts can largely shore up the top 20 and protect it with the next 10 in the list as backups. No account should be able to vote upon all of the top witnesses plus their backups.

Reduce the vote count to 10.

This means that no one account can vote on all top 20 and will make vote collusion more difficult as it would require more accounts to be involved. It also has the added benefits of only needing to find 10 worthy witnesses, not 30. Most people are going to find it very difficult to keep track of 30 but, as we know, people are lazy and will largely vote on what is already high in the list. I am lazy too.

Having only 10 votes means that users can better align their votes with witnesses that they think are valuable and still use all of their voting power. The largest accounts on the platform definitely use their vests as they know the importance of the positioning.

EDIT: Apologies for the terrible image but this is just to visualise if the Freedom account only had 10 votes:

witnesses.png

It means that the larger voters now have more chance to affect positions and the small voters (light blue) come much more heavily into play.

Increase top witness limits

 
Having a larger top witness count would have the added benefit of decentralizing the witnesses further and spread the witness rewards wider afield. If combined with less votes, the top 20 and 30 might change significantly in structure too as the smaller voter voices begin to matter much, much more. It is still stake based remember but, currently, the smaller voters have very little say if some section of the top voters are vote trading.

Maybe 30 top witness positions.

With 30 top witnesses and 10 votes, the list becomes much more dynamic but, those who are actually adding value to the platform are still likely to hold the top positions. In fact, those who do the most are likely to improve their positions as vote traders are knocked downward as their support bases are spread and less significant.

Time limit on votes

 
At the moment, there is no time limit on voting which means there is no reason to ever revote. For elected positions, complacency can seep in and it can quickly become a list of status quo position, thinking and steps forward. Remember that witnesses play a huge role in where the platform goes in the future.

6 month to a year time limit

Having a 6 month time limit doesn't necessarily make it difficult to revote the same but, it does make it necessary to vote otherwise the vested vote on the witness drops away. Currently, even on dead accounts (or dead people) their witness vote is for life. That is going to get very problematic in the future, if the witnesses become inactive but are still getting highly vested votes. It could be as simple as having a rollover vote button to revote for the same.

However, what is likely is that people will at least have a quick review of their voting every 6 months to see if the witnesses are holding up their responsibilities.

Why do this?

 
Having a more dynamic and less secure top witness list has many community benefits as it opens the witness positions up to more responsibility to actually perform and engage with their community. It means that those who are running various projects need to make sure the people are informed about them (this is actually in their best interest too).

It also means that it is much, much harder for vote trading and collusion which can essentially create a type of dictatorial authority at the top with very little chance to change governance.

Having less votes, more top slots and a forced revote period, reduces risks, encourages more witnesses, increases engagement, reduces collusion, increases the power of voters, reduces effort to find quality witnesses and means that the mega accounts can't choose all of who is there.

Even though this is a risk to some witnesses in the top 20, for many there, they are secure anyway as they actually offer the community value either through their services, developments or, in their community roles. The only ones who would rally have to be concerned are those who are vote trading and purchasing their positions.

I think in the long-term best interests of the platform, the witness list needs to become more dynamic and a larger section of the community should be able to have a real say in who is there.

This is up for discussion only and I hope that those who know much more about the way these things work will engage in the comments section too.

Taraz
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  ·  7 years ago (edited)

The first points are difficult for my small mind to model, and i can see potential pros and cons to switching up the number of votes, and the slots.

As far as dead/inactive votes, and a potential requirement to 'show living' every 3/6/9 months, that makes total sense to me and sounds fair. It won't benefit the older witnesses, and so I can't see a rush to get this pushed though :)

I have to run to a kids B'day party but I will get back to this later :)

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

I'm sure you've woken up thinking about this after @pharesim made a post about it. I've been thinking about this quite a bit myself since yesterday too.

Honestly, its not like I cant say that it would not be tempting to participate of the vote exchanges to stay on the top 20. The incentive is very, very tempting, which is why @pharesim won me over with his decision to vote his values.

I've been thinking however that another thing Steemian citizens should do, is to partake on our equivalent of a grassroots movement, because specifically talking about the one who made it to the top 20, I don't think its the platform's consensus... its closer to a political move, for political gain.

I dunno, I'm ok with being wrong on this one, but I'm currently thinking if I could/should do something about it.

I'm sure you've woken up thinking about this after @pharesim made a post about it. I've been thinking about this quite a bit myself since yesterday too.

Been thinking awhile and posted a few things in the past but glad @pharesim posted last night. This particular one was inspired by a chat with him just before.

The problem with having 30 votes is that small voters are squeezed out of having significant say unless massive amounts of them team up and forma voting PAC. Possible, but unlikely.

It is good to talk openly about these things though as they affect us all.

I can agree with all of these and these measures would be a significant step in helping to distribute influence more evenly amongst the block producers and decentralize some of the power that keeps the current list rather static.

Rather than reducing the number of votes to 10, I would prefer that one is allow to give partial votes (up to 1) based on their stake, with a limit on how many people a specific user is allowed to vote for (maybe 10, 15, 20?). That way you can give more influence to certain witnesses you like more than others and the witnesses sacrifice their own position in any attempt to collude with other witnesses to keep each other up high in the rankings.

That is a decent proposal too, thanks. Of course, this will essentially all amount to nothing but, at least it gets me thinking :)

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

@tarazkp - I also read @pharesim's post on witnesses and I thank you for continuing the knowledge and discussion. For my 1st 4 months on Steemit, I didn't even know what a witness was or what he/she did, or how they would impact me, etc. I think most people who join Steemit don't get involved with witnesses. It's after being here for awhile that the information starts to sink in.

I like your main direction - to open up the witnesses and break-up vote selling/sharing blocks. For this, time limits is critical, IMO. Like shareholders voting for members of the board for a corporation. I think 1x/year is good. People can change their vote during the yr also.

I also like opening it up to the top 30 positions....or only giving the top 10 positions automatic compensation and then spread it out to the remaining active witnesses.

From what I see, it appears almost impossible to start as a witness and move up to make all of their work worthwhile financially. I feel this is very detrimental to the continued functioning of Steemit.

One problem that I have in voting for witnesses is that I don't know what most of the 100+ witnesses have done or continue to do for Steemit. I just don't have the time nor the technical understanding to find this out. I do vote for witnesses that I come across in posts, etc if I feel they are making worthwhile contributions.

I'd also like to give some praise for 2 people who are witnesses who are commenting or highly mentioned on this post - and I feel are doing their best to enhance the functioning of the Steemit platform = @pharesin and @abh12345 (whose steemit witness name is @steemcommunity). There are many other good witnesses but one has to research those themselves.

To sum up, these changes that you and @pharesim and others are suggesting sound great. They may be for the benefit of the Steemit platform as a whole. But if they don't benefit the top witnesses, will the top witnesses vote for it? I think some will because they do have the whole Steemit platform best interests at heart. But will they be enough to enact changes? I don't know. We'll have to see.

I'm still quite far from witness thing, didn't search for it much.
According to this graph (http://www.steemreports.com/witness-voters/), freedom is deciding who should be rich or not. It doesn't look like cross-votes can help them stay on top-20 and even if we vote it daily, I believe someone would come up with a bot that would vote for witness' daily.

Also while system limits the number of witnesses it would be centralized anyways, 20 or 200 it's the same for me.

Lastly, personally, I would rather have stable witnesses instead of every newbie tries to be one of them. Just my humble thoughts.

As I said, I'm not knowledgable enough on witness thingy so these might make no sense...

This is really, really , really rough but just to see the holes I thought it would be interesting. I removed freedom from the visualisation except for the top 10 votes:

witnesses.png

You can see how much effect one account can have. I think Jerry drops out of the top 20 immediately and if @blocktrades used all 10, (they only use 5) it can shift things quite a lot in the next 10-20 positions as some would drop and they could bump some in. Then, the smaller voters (light blue) come much more heavily into play also as some of the heavily community supported accounts like @teamsteem would return to the top 20.

I am not saying these suggestions are an answer to anything but, they are interesting to consider.

Apologies about the terrible hack job on the image.. rushed at the moment.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

In general, everything would be better and better if system give more power to newcomers. Instead of hardcoded binary solution. If a newbie can find a reasonable way to gain power somehow, they less likely try to abuse the system, imho. It can be applied to everything from bidbots to circle jerks to not afraid to flag. And it would also help with the dynamics of the witnesses.

Edit, charts showing that total wealth distributed more each day but idk if it’s correct or not or will that happen soon or take a lot of time.

As I always said I’m always keeping an eye on for steem alternatives. Lately there is mithril. Tripled its value in one week. ~$1,2 I would be just sad when we all point these “mistakes”, solutions some other crypto take lessons from these but not us.

Yes, so you give freedom 10 votes instead of 30 and what happens? It makes the next 10 positions much more open.

Lastly, personally, I would rather have stable witnesses instead of every newbie tries to be one of them. Just my humble thoughts.

I would rather them not able to trade their position so easily.

I just failed at kindergarden math :) see you next year.

I really like the idea of time-limited voting, wonder how difficult it would be to implement that. And when you put it that way reducing the number of witness votes sounds like a great idea.

goatsig

These are really some valuable points. Being here for more than 3 months, I feel like I'm a part of this community. I understand the importance of witnesses, especially those who are in top 20 position, who run powerful servers to keep steemit going smoothly. As of now people like me have no say as our vests doesn't count millions or billions. By increasing most important positions from 20 to 30 and decreasing the number of votes from current 30 to 10, we can actually control certain things. As @pharesim expressed, even I don't like some people like jerrybanfield continuing on top 20. But I have no say in it.

Number of vests is really important in a platform like steemit and the voice of those having high vests should count. To keep their selection top notch, some modifications as you suggested has to be done. I'm still learning and hope what I said is atleast relevant to the happenings now!

I know very little about this stuff but am learning as it is not straight forward. What I will add is how can a vote be for life? Compare it to a pilot. You have to fly so many hours a year to retain the licence. Surely something similar with this could be applied. So many logins over a 6 month period would keep your vote.
Whole thing would be easier if you were a witness anyway.

Also.. Witness downvotes.
Let's at least consider it.
It would be very interesting to see that play out in the open field

It would be interesting but I am not sure about it yet unless it was a 10 vote limit. Having downvotes with 30 votes would be terrible as not only could one large account (freedom) choose the top 20, they could knock any other out.

Yeah, he could block anybody from entering the top 20 even better as he is doing now.. True.

But it would increase the drama on the platform a lot :)

I agree with you 100%. This witness ‘process’ is been to centralized for a descentralized platform. I always had my questions about it, but not sure who and how the ‘rules’ can be changed.

What a discussion worthy of attention. I got to know how this witness thing works now. Over time I’ve pondered about what it takes to be a witness

you should really do some reading on it if you are thinking of sticking around for the future.

I will definitely, I want to be around much more . Why should I want to be outside when I could be outstanding on steemit. Thanks for the advice

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  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Quote:

"It also means that it is much, much harder for vote trading and collusion which can essentially create a type of dictatorial authority at the top with very little chance to change governance."

This right here is key. People really guffaw when suggesting that there will always be people who will conspire when given enough power, time, and freedom. I have changed my witness votes and plan to again, for this reason. The more I learn, the more I unlearn, in a sense.

I don't know if you can answer this, but I'm wondering, who is in charge of the payouts and how payouts are made? Are those witnesses, or is it Steemit Inc? The STU payout is confusing to me since it seems it was set up at a time when the SBD was closer to the value of a dollar, as it was originally intended to be, but clearly is not. So, when the value rose, why didn't the post payout arrangements change to accommodate the growth? Whose decision is it to change, or not change the payout calculations, regarding the 50/50 payout? Why is the steem payout at 100 percent set to make an investor lose their money?

Idk if this post is clear, because it is confusing to me... lol

Whose decision is it to change, or not change the payout calculations, regarding the 50/50 payout? Why is the steem payout at 100 percent set to make an investor lose their money?

What do you mean lose their money?

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Okay so say I invested 100 dollars into steem. Lets assume Steem is at 4.00 USD and SBD is at 3.50 USD. So 100 USD, that is 25 Steem. Then, lets say I bid on a vote bot for 25, and I won. The payouts says 50 STU.

Then the payout comes, and you get either half in SBD and half in Steem, or just in 100 percent steem. 50 STU multiplied by .75 is 37.5 STU after curation.

100 percent steem payout: 37.5/ price of steem which is 37.5/4 = 9.375 Steem Power. That would equal 37.50 USD.

or

50/50 payout: 37.5/2 = 18.75 SBD and 4.6875 Steem Power. that would equal 65.625 and 18.75 USD, repectively for a total of 84.375 USD

In both cases, even though I won the Bid, and put all my money into a post, less comes out and even less when selecting 100 percent steem payout.

here is my recent post on it, but I am trying to figure out why you actually lose money when you select 100 percent steem payout, rather than just buying the steem outright, and the use of bid bots do not seem to be as lucrative as H (you know who) makes it seem to be and how everyone else seems to say it is.

Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but the numbers dont make sense to me.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@miss-j/do-all-bidbots-actually-make-you-lose-money-why-are-50-50-payouts-not-paid-in-50-sbd-50-sbd-worth-of-steem

Oh, you are talking about bidbots.. yeah, the system isn't designed for them. If you haven't worked it out yet, the bidbots never lose. You obviously haven't been reading my posts about bidbots the last 9 months but, I don't use them. The ones that exist now are harmful to the system in my opinion.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Yeah, I expected them to get a cut of the profits, but not to make the high bidders lose? And yes, I am currently trying to understand how bid bots makes anyone money except the bidbot owners, and I am trying also to visualize why H spends all his money on them, what is he gaining?

... but it isnt just the bots, the payouts should never be at 100 percent steem payout or else you are just throwing away money. under 100 percent steem payout, you lose the half that would have gotten paid out as SBD - which currently is worth 3.5 times the amount that the half paid in steem power is. What is the point in that? They should put a caveat next to it and suggest to the user that selecting this option is willingly burning up your profits.

... but it isnt just the bots, the payouts should never be at 100 percent steem payout or else you are just throwing away money

only because SBD has broken the peg. It is meant to be at 1 USD and is stil calculated by the system at 1 USD. Steem is calculated at market value on a 3.5 day floating average. Good times to buy steem used to be anytime SBD was over 1. and sometime 1.2 was amazing! people seem to not understand what is going on now and think this is normal so instead of using the SBD to buy Steem, they cash it all out and take short gains. To each their own.

Yes, is a broken peg not fixable? Lol i dont know what a brokn peg is, but whatever it is, its effed up. Imo.

Okay thanks for your replies. That helps a bit.

some want to fix it, some don't. The system is currenty broken because of it though and the bidbots are making extreme value as people pay in sbd.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

as for your previous bot posts, Im very new, only been here since march. :)

I agree with a time limit. 6 months or 1 year, max. And some sort of way to prevent "automatically re-voting" using a bot.

I also agree with the limited number of votes. I'd go with 15 to cut down the current number by 50%. Also, it's hard enough to read and keep up with 15 individual blogs, let alone 15 witnesses on top of that.. it will provide for more quality witness voting.