Going on.
Let's see how the dolphins and minnows will play.
//Edit: I'm downvoting the posts upvoted by other whales.
//Edit 2: downvoting posts upvoted by the @steemvoter Guild.
//Edit 3: thinking about how to counteract bot voting. Bot voting includes voting for a list of authors and follow voting.
//Edit 4: downvoting @steemtrail. (Edit 10: stopped downvoting)
//Edit 5: downvoting @curie (Edit 10: stopped downvoting)
//Edit 6: some explanations here, thanks for the people who wrote them:
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/the-whale-voting-experiment-explained-including-downvotes-from-abit
https://steemit.com/steemit/@neoxian/the-experiment-communication-required-this-is-a-social-platform
//Edit 7: some related links:
- https://steemit.com/payout/@timcliff/everything-you-need-to-know-about-potential-payouts-and-flagging-for-new-users
- https://steemit.com/steemit/@meesterboom/the-excitement-of-the-whale-experiment-why-we-should-get-on-board
//Edit 8: one more link:
//Edit 9: here is a video: https://steemit.com/live-experiment/@fyrstikken/explaining-the-whale-fasting-experiment
//Edit 10: one more link: https://steemit.com/experiment/@sykochica/experiment-thoughts-and-potential-strategies
And stopped downvoting curie and steemtrail.
//Edit 11: more info:
This is why steem needs a blocking feature. one day soon, new chains will spring up and will have this function. Then we will not have to worry about people like @abit running everyone off!
People like @abit focuses way too much on rewards and not enough on the people who help make this platform what it is. He is a bad actor, and is doing more harm than he realizes or even cares.
But hey, continue with the silliness you call an "experiment". You will find yourself a huge bagholder of 3 million steem.
Have a great day!
EDIT: You can downvote SteemTrail all you want. We do not care about your little experiment. Have fun. The community will decide what is best for US...Not you or any of your friends.
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Someone who owns a stake in the Steem network has the right to influence the reward pool as they choose. This includes downvoting. Allowing arbitrary blocking of downvoting would not work.
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This is a serious flaw. maybe we will see a chain that does it right then.
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On such a platform, you may as well not have downvoting if anyone can arbitrarily decide on accounts who they will disallow downvotes from. Furthermore, one of the reasons to buy STEEM Power is to have influence on the reward pool. Allowing vote blocking would erode a part of STEEM Power's utility.
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This is pure wrong. FLAGGING is meant to be used on people who are misusing the platform by posting bad, stolen or illegal content. It is ONLY acceptable for us to support people who USE flagging if they use it for the reasons for which flagging was intended. If you were here at the beginning you would know we had flsggin AND downvoting early on and the community came to the conclusion that such downvoting is destructive to steemit and alienates people. This is WHY WE USED FLAGGING -- Because flagging illegal or abusive material is the ONLY form of punishment this platform should offer.
When you play the game of political correctness to give the "right" to downvote quality content, you are walking a thin line to suicide and killing the platform along with yourself.
Hint: we dont need to grow to a billion users tomorrow. Hell we dont need to even focus on the number of users....but should focus instead on the QUALITY of their contributions to steem. In these early days, people should not be surprised if those individuals like myself who have been creating quality content for the community who built the tech that makes sreem possible years before steem was even born...should be expected to receive larger payouts as we have become trusted to use the money to improve the platform by those whales who will upvote us!
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its entitlement like this thats the reason we have to get rid of n^2 and make a conscious effort to downvote low quality, pretext content
Also, pretty ridiculous that one user is telling others how theyre allowed to vote.
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users were always allowed to downvote whatever they want. "flags" have never existed on the blockchain. As ive said elsewhere, the current design of the UI is akin to ballot tampering. Attempting to stop people from using their vote by misrepresenting what it really is.
then quit i guess. If you think youre entitled to a huge amount of money for pics of ham and don't think anyone ought to have the right to vote against that, its probably not the best platform for you. Obvi, i don't want people to quit, but downvotes are a part of the system (and an essential part at that). If you really dislike the system that much there's a ton of other SM platforms without voting/downvoting.
Certainly, if you think there is enough in the reward pool to pay you a full time salary to post pictures of ham, at least right now that isn't the case... the reward pool and the price of steem won't support it. At least, not without forcing everyone else to go without any significant rewards.
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There has been a change in the platform. They updated the wording for 'flagging' to make it more along the lines of a downvote. Users are allowed to flag/downvote over "disagreement over rewards". There is also an open GitHub issue (opened by the Steemit dev team) to change the UI back to 'downvote' instead of flag.
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I absolutely agree with you @officialfuzzy On everything. It should report abit for misuse of flags.
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I totally agree with you im tired of being downvoted for no reason ! I worked hard on my Steemit Ham Supper tonight only to have it flagged 3 or4 times for absolutely no reason !!! Im already only posting part time because of all of this and of course the smooth couldnt wait to downvote me again FOR QUALITY , ALL ORIGINAL PHOTOS AND CONTENT !!! IM PISSED !!!👎👎👎
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The reward curves that discount the minnows to nothing and to the whales everything does more harm than @abit can.
He can only affect however many votes he gets in a day, but the reward curves make everybody below xSP irrelevant.
This loses more users, imo.
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Then again, it is a misuse of the flagging feature, is it not? I thought flags were for spam or abusive content.
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This is mot a flaw. Without free actors, there is no free market. Speak out against it if you disagree.
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There are many people in the community that feel strongly that the current distribution of stake is preventing the platform from scaling to billions of users. There is pretty much no incentive for a 'regular user' to buy SP, because even a relatively large investment of a few thousand dollars does not provide practically any influence. Figuring out a way to make the platform more appealing to 'regular users' to invest is really a key issue that needs to be solved if we all want our stake to grow in value.
The million dollar question is how do you achieve this in a way that is fair to the original stakeholders, and does not open the doors to abuse. Here is a post with some thoughts on the subject:
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/whales-can-the-community-buy-out-a-portion-of-your-influence
The initiative that @abit is an agreement with many of the whales to not vote for a period, as an experiment to see what happens when the dolphins+minnows get more influence. It is an experiment. It is not the solution to the problem.
If the experiment helps the community to reach a consensus on what that solution is though, then it will be doing everyone a great service. We need to figure this out / get this right in order for the platform to scale.
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This is not a solution. Downvoting represents nothing that is positive for those receiving them. That is the only data that will be retrieved from this.
Ask those receiving downvotes if they think the platform is more appealing.
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I received downvote to abit. Now I defollower abit.
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Wait for the hardfork before you leave?
IF they make the minnows matter in the math it might get better around here.
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Very sorry you had to experience this. This is not how we want to treat our users. My apologies.
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I'm not sure with what authority you can say that.
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I am so confused and try to understand this move
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Did the same. Good move. More people with guts.
Following you.
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The goal is for the whales to participate in the experiment. If whales don't upvote with a large portion of their stake (hence defeating the experiment) then there will be no downvotes.
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Not true. They have been downvoting post that did not have any whale votes.
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@abit No, I am not a whale yet - though I fully intend to become one. I have invested very large amounts into PURCHASING steempower. It is partially due to people like me, who have been buying steem all through the downturn in prices, that people like you have been able to cash out some of your steem.
I also attended Steemfest AT MY OWN EXPENSE unlike many others who were subsidized for their costs and reimbursed for some of their travel expenses.
I just came back from promoting Steem at Cryptopulco, again at my own expense. I have funded the prize money for contests on steemit in order to generate interest and enthusiasm in our platform. I have promoted other's posts at my own expense.
I have spent hundreds of hours curating and commenting and encouraging on the platform. I have never made use of a bot, but give conscious consideration to all my interactions AFTER HAVING ACTUALLY READ THE POSTS!
I have plowed everything that I have made from curating and posting right back into the platform (except for what I have donated to steemit projects or used to promote others' posts.)
Hence this, probably well-intentioned but definitely ill-conceived, experiment which can produce NO data of value because no parameters were set, is most discouraging to people like me.
DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT I SHOULD REDUCE THE VALUE OF MY VOTE TO SUIT YOUR AGENDA? IS MY AGENDA NOT AT LEAST AS VALUABLE TO THE PLATFORM?
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[Nesting]
Respectful.
We all want a better platform.
Just do what you think is right.
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Which post?
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Again, not one single mention of how this affects our users. This is a problem.
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Based on what I have seen, the lack of communication is really the big problem with this experiment.
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Im tired of being downvoted ! Especially after working very hard on my Ham dinner food blog tonight !!! Now flagged 3 or4 times !! All it does is piss me off !! 👎👎👎
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I received my downvote few days ago (we know that the experiment was started days ago, totally random as we could see watching the posts on the trending page) and I felt demotivated and discouraged. I wrote a content asking to whale don't upvote my posts, explaining (in my usual civilized manners) how a "simple (but honest) user" can feel confused after this . Not for the different payout after the downvote (5 dollars don't change my life, fortunately), but because I received it without explanation. Now, I can appreciate that a whale say me that it's running an experiment (ok, I can have my own concerns about it, but I'm only a minnow, no?), but I really hope that it isn't random and I really hope that the users are conscious that it's an experiment. I'm feeling as a lab rat, honestly.
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I'm feeling as a lab rat, honestly.--->that's right
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We are all lab rats, hehe. This is beta :)
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@timcliff, you are right ! In my opinion there are two difference about lab rats in steemit community, mice (minnows) and big rats (whales)...ha..ha..!
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Here is a good post for you to read.
https://steemit.com/payout/@timcliff/everything-you-need-to-know-about-potential-payouts-and-flagging-for-new-users
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@timcliff I read the post, but,as i wrote in my comment, the problem (for me, sure) isn't the payout that can be down. The problem is to receive a downvote without explaination. As many users here, I have some years of experience on the net and as users in some communities, so I perfectly know how the human factor works. If you hurt me (yes, a downvote without explanation can hurt someone, especially the minnows), I react and the reaction, for a simple user, is usually stay away from the community (I'm not talking about me ^_^). Maybe i'm wrong, but looking around I read that one of the objective of steemit is increase the number of active users, not decrease it. There is a very simple solution against the decrease: communication. I appreciate @abit, because he wrote that it's an experiment, but it would be useful for the users if he (or other for him) explain the plan. I can guess the "why" of this experiment, but you need to understand that the human factor is really important in every community ;)
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Vorrei solo sapere quanto dura questo esperimento...io non voglio essere la cavia di nessuno. Questi sono metodi fascisti... Dovevano chiedere prima
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One thing that might help is to consider voting for witnesses who are not supporting this.
Change your witness vote and let them all know why.
In the meantime, it is having a positive effect on the price of steem and this is driving the power of votes upward. It just needs marketed completely differently.
You can tell people we're stomping out bot votes. They'll understand that.
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Abit is voting, all the time
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I'm looking at his voting history in steemd, and it looks like they are all 1% upvotes. These votes essentially put his votes at the same level of stake as dolphins - which is very different than a whale upvoting with a large share of their stake.
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abit votes for my comments which is pretty much the only decent reward(s) i make now. I have to disagree with you on this. He is trying a different approach, its worth a try isn't it? It's only for 1 voting period to s. Its just interesting to see what it's like in a world without whales for a day.
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No. I do not think it is worth a try. I'm open for almost any idea, however, when it comes to our end users and retention i would never agree to something like this.
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@solarguy. If only you could also feel what it was like for 3 years as i worked nearly free of charge to get where i could be trusted and upvoted by whales for my efforts.
All this experiment does is teaches you about the feeling of earning rewards you havent worked for to the degree that others have...and does it at the expense of those who have proven themselves time and time again to some people who finally have some stake in a project they limely sacrificed a great deal for.
New users seem to forget this. Imagine if you had to work and post to steem for over 3 years, working a night job and barely seeing your family so you could make this possible. Then imagine someone who is new to the platform says "i think i deserve the respect and trust THAT GUY has! But i can only have it if it is TAKEN AWAY from him!!"
All benefit it looks like from the minnows side.
Why not just change the f*g N^2 rewards curve???
Jesus this isnt rocket science.
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I do know the feeling of working hard and not getting to see my loved ones or do things that bring joy to my life.
I also know what it is like to spend days writing a great post to have it earn hefty rewards and also make less than a nickel.
U see i spoke out about what i saw was happening a couple months ago and pissed off every guild and whale and never had decent successful rewards wise post since. Not in 2 months. Though my following continued grow and my comments section was still a hit.
I still write about the same things and for a while after i still put in the effort.
Steemit is about politics more than content or its quality.
This experiment will prove that and so i can see why so many people are oppse it.
At the end of the day its just for a day or two. If this experiment is so bad then after its finished things will go back normal.
If the experiment has merit maybe it will change some users habits.
This isnt just to make newbies wanting a slice of the pie who just got here.
I dedicated my life to steemit. I welcomed hundreds hundreds, i gave advice and pointed people in the right direction. I promoted my fellow authors on and off the platform. I have over 470 followers. Most of my posts have very active comment sections.
I fit the description of an author who is well liked and appreciated by many here but it does not reflect in my rewards because the few people who can give me them dont like me for something i said months ago. I was not wrong this experiment will prove it.
I did nothing so bad other than expose an issue that is clearly being missed by many.
I too sacrificed my time and energy for this place. Not just the people in favour or in power
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The problem is that if it were a PROPER experiment people would not be blindsided and left out (unless they are meant to be the control). What this was was nothing more tham a half assrd attempt at what? Changing the system for 2 days?
Nothing in have seen even tells me what SPECIFIC datapoints they are trying to tease from the community :P
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Steem is not 3 years old, only about a year, what are you referring to here?
You don't earn rewards, they are given to you according to votes. Working hard does not equal high payout. Quality is subjective. People are free to use their votes however they want.
It's not rocket science, you're right.
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Quality is very subjective indeed. I guess all social networks - including steem have the problem how good content is measured. Steem has tried with Higher Quality = Sum of (Votes * Power of Vote). So far so good. Now the value of the post ist distributed back to the voters, those with more power get back more part of the treasure.
This leads to an expotentional growth of those which are :
started earlier than others, and thus posted more and longer.
But new people can't rally up? As they always will only get some very tiny fractions from the value.
So some could even work hard, but get not much from it.
Also it creates a "class" of rich people, medium class and working poor. Is that the social network some wants to create?
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Pretty much everyone I've talked to wants this to be done.
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I'm sorry, I don't agree with you, any person for steeimt experiments should not receive criticism, steemit is open, why do you think @abit 's experiment is to earn more money, you're here. What do you want ? Steeimt from the highest point to an all-time low, this proves that the current steemit mode is not in the right orbit, you do not consider these issues, but always accuse others of experiment, I don't know why.
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Thanks, for standing up "for the Right to Party"* or to "Post" (a joke from another steemian friend) freely, and not being harassed or used like objects.
We need people to forget the fear of losing reputation or Steem because someone decides to play with it just like it is a nickel machine, whose casino chips will have a zero value one day outside the casino.
And notice that the users are just numbers in a guinea pig experiments contest. We are not people anymore.
This system is censorship-resistant from the inside but not from the inside.
Finishing with 2 quotes from my posts
"The 1% of society rulers (minority) that are equalitarian only between them, but at the cost of the exploited 99% (majority) that are considered objects (slaves) and shows the influence of object possessions in the relation of Man-to-Man, and how paternalistic structures of things can "treat men as objects"."
"Steemit can be a model of the future in the blockchain for a more just society, because for me the real meaning of Justice is Equality and not the point of view of the Power as it is today."
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Cant disagree...perfectly stated imho. Abit has really stunned me with this ridiculousness.
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This is a scam, his flags are not getting global rewards lower, they are just getting the platform less attractive and the Steem lower.
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What about the reputations of innocent posters that you are downvoting?
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Good comment.
We all have to remember that to the value of the network must be subtracted the number the users that spam, flag and mute. Attracting and retaining augments the value of the network.
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Is there evidence to support that the whales are already voting less.
My metric is 0 payout posts in cashout, it appears that there are less.
I was figuring that was whale shame, is it not?
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The amount that the platform pays out will still stay the same, even if none of the whales vote. The only difference is that instead of whale upvotes dictating where the majority of rewards are allocated, it will be decided by the votes of the dolphins and minnows. With the absence of whale upvotes, the upvotes from dolphins and minnows will now have a lot more influence.
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Right, instead of the .01% sucking it up and doling it out to their preferred content providers it gives everybody at the bottom a chance at a payout the moves the UI.
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Yes
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Now if only more people understood that, then that would be awesome. This test is to take control away from the huge whales and distribute rewards more fairly. Hang in everyone....this will be worth it.
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Yep, exactly!
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If the intention is to reduce the voting power of users with SP, then there is little incentive to hold SP and surely the whales will begin to power down further driving down the price.
In that scenario why not just hold your value as STEEM you get little benefit for holding SP? (I know you get a bit of the daily reward pool but not much else)
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It is just an experiment. Obviously if anything long term is to be done, more would need to be done to address the 'fairness' and gaming aspects of it.
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What about those of us who havr earned backing by sacrificing for the last 3 years for the community that made steemit even possible? Do i deserve you to downvote my work that FINALLY can get paid for?
This, abit, is a terrible experiment.
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I respect your choice and I understand what you're trying to accomplish @abit but I want to take the time to share my thoughts on this.
It seems like the distribution of Steem is going well and is mostly done through the sell of Steem. Around $122,211 worth of Steem has been transacted in the last 24h. The daily author reward pool is worth only $4,324 if sold on Poloniex. (thanks to @inertia's bot for the info) The price of Steem has been going down lately thus the biggest losers are those who own the most Steem. With your experiment you will indiscriminately further put the larger Steem holder with author skills at a disadvantage.
I worked probably close to 20 hours on my next post and I put in more than 10 hours on almost all my chapters. I don't post that often. Usually when I do I get great rewards because I put a lot of time and thoughts into my posts. Not only in the redacting part but I spend all my life teaching myself about everything I could.
At first I thought this experiment might be a great experiment but after further consideration I doubt it. I don't post for the rewards yet like fuzzy I have spend a lot of time learning about crypto and that's one of the reason I and some of us were on Steem very early. I have spent the time, effort and taken the financial risk to be where I am now with the Steem I own. Most people on Steem haven't read the whitepaper once, haven't heard of Bitcoin before and it's okay. They are rarely the largest Steem holders for good reasons.
Money isn't the primary motivation for me and this will clearify in my next post but I need money to be able to advance my primary goal. I will uphold my next post in the hope this experiment will be stop soon. I hope you will consider removing your downvote if you were to realize that they didn't accomplished what you intended them to.
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@teamsteem - the experiment does not take away any rewards from the reward pool. The platform will still pay authors the same amount regardless of the upvotes/downvotes from whales. All this experiment is doing is changing who gets to decide on the reward allocation. By the whales not voting (or being canceled out by other whales downvotes) then the dolphins and minnows will be the ones influencing the rewards.
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Yes - and that person is primarily abit. This "experiment" is severely flawed. Any "data" gathered from it will be worthless.
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I never said the experiment takes away from the reward pool. I'm not sure if you misread me or I badly expressed myself. I know how the reward pool works.
The point I made with the reward pool is that the % of total number of Steem people own are being influence more by the day to day selling and buying of Steem than by the number of Steem being distributed by the reward pool.
Also you commented below:
@ats-david ansered.
You answered
Also not all whale's votes are being cancelled either.
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@abit You're sick .... groomed, call a doctor ....
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Being condescending towards someone isn't a positive to anyone. We all been condescending toward someone at some point but we should strive for better. Have a nice day @sardrt!
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Speak for yourself ... I'm not condescending with anyone ... Good night @teamsteem
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can you try a best of three, I get it it's not your day and you are mad, still why say you aren't speaking down on anybody when you are, I'm sure there are many others that are sick and is some strange way abit seems to be the one with the doctor outfit :)
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Really? do something productive.
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I think this is a pretty interesting experiment, actually. And it's only for a few days, and those few days can provide us with some data that can help future decision making.
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Absolutely! This Data will prove to be important.
https://steemit.com/witness-category/@fyrstikken/voting-power-to-the-people-and-curation-rewards-to-the-investors-please-bookmark-and-read-later-if-you-are-busy
I love beta-testing :D
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Me too!
Let's see what happens! 🤔
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I agree @schattenjaeger - data pool is important to make sure minnows and all users can fly :-)!
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Wait a second here...
Does this image imply that it's possible to milk a dolphin?
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almost - see you can think out of the usual silo but no @ats-david :-)
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Agreed. Already we can see that the rewards are being distributed more evenly. Not saying that it should be, but it's interesting to see the 1% Winfrey guild having impact. We can also see that some people are adamantly against down votes while others are adamantly against experimenting lol.
Not only will the data be interesting, but for a few days dolphins get to feel what's is like to be a whale... And when that gets taken away... Who knows... Maybe there'll be increased demand for steem power!
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hahaha yeah we can always get some data, maybe even see how much the public opinion of abit changes :D how much people are happier with steemit, how many are mad all fun metrics, if we can get all that juicy data mined right from the steemin blockchain :) and it gives material to you and stellabelle so we can all laugh at the experiments in a week :D probably
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Lol. Should I take that as sarcasm?
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Please stop downvoting #BitShares related stuff.
You're demotivating active community members
You're hurting reputation
As active Witness this behavior is totally inappropriate.
Thank you
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Wow exactly @vato. Sad that abit doesnt realize the psychological DISINCENTIVE he is creating among the most loyal posters and backers of this tech.
If it persists I WILL be starting a campaign to rid abit of his witness. If THIS is how he chooses to use his witness funding, he doesnt need a witness.
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sooooooooo that is why my vote finally made a cent :D I was wondering why the madness had happened. :D Thought I was mad :D
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EXACTLY!
https://steemit.com/witness-category/@fyrstikken/voting-power-to-the-people-and-curation-rewards-to-the-investors-please-bookmark-and-read-later-if-you-are-busy
Thank you for this TEST @abit
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I can see the trend page is quite shocked, there is only one "high" payout above 50 ATM, I was used to seeing posts measure up to 20/50/100 and maybe one or a few at 150-200 but this is strange, very, payouts are 50 20 10 5 2 2 2 :D I suppose more is being transacted around but I do miss the whale votes :D I can see some people are already annoyed. It's ok I suppose since I don't mind it, but as I've said before I don't like the @ snowflake idea and I used to like abit more when he was supporting comments :D I wonder how this will affect curation rewards and I hope many people don't get phased by it, we should have thicker skins and weather such storms, people have been getting triggered left and right these past few weeks.
I'm out for now, still haven't read your post, but I w interested when it was posted. I don't like the idea off the headline, I think curation rewards should go to the people and power to the investors as i is :) (or as it is supposed to be but not quite) I think curation should be a way to power up and investors should be the most helpful to the growth of the community, therefore the most power and stake, acting when necessary, I like parts of the snowflake proposals, but I think minds already exists and we shouldn't downright dismantle the main features of steemit, whatever separates us from the other platforms should be used and fun to be used :)
I'm off :| :| :|
Cheers mate :)
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So @abit gets to dictate who is allowed to curate or earn rewards for their posts? And how long will this be going on?
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Lol. Now you sound like krnel.
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is that bad?
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If a Dolphin or minnow wants more influence then they should buy some SP, or use the platform and blog to become a whale. End of story. Count me out of your games, I will continue to vote how I please. I upvote based on attention given (time) by author and quality of content created. @abit
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A downvote was applied to partially counter earlier whale votes as an experiment to reduce whale domination of voting influence. Not intended to express an opinion on the content nor result in a net reduction of rewards or reputation (automated notice)
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what is the point of a automated notice, it's just like YouTube taking away monetary rewards from ads, until further notice.
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First, I stopped the notices as a lot of people found them too spammy. Second, no one is taking away rewards like youtube not paying, although I reocognize there are some misunderstandings. In fact all the same rewards are being paid out but it is done so on the basis of votes from far more people rather than just a few dozen whales. I hope this helps clear up any misunderstanding about the nature of the voting system. Please don't be misled by a few people with a vested interest in supporting whale-dominated voting practices.
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oh please don't misunderstand me, I'm all for a more engaged not voteboting reward based "social" media. I have no problem with the experiments I just see the effect and give my 2 cents, if you want feel free to check my post on the matter.
I think I have a firm grasp on how things run here, I've been online for a long time compared to most months of real activity is a lot in my view. It's still nice to get a 20 upvote because of some whale domination, there are too many problems to name and I hope we can pick the right solutions, hopefully this experiment doesn't stain the people too much, I'm just saying when the memes come they don't stop easy.
Last time there was a "war" I was hoping that a resolution might come about and I found it very interesting with the way krnel took the conversation, still, bernie for instance couldn't bother to even look and just memed away. It's about profits and whining. I think it's time we start working towards solutions. I hope this is worth it, since I think it will drive down the activity of the established users and not do much for the newcomers since it won't last long, guilds, bots and all are all good ideas, maybe not in their current form tho, I would much rather see a communication going around rather than just trailing bots at 1% :D
I'm not sure I'm being led anywhere I like staying in one place enjoying the show. IF profits roll in great, if not oh well, :D I'm not one to focus on menial tasks. Like posting four times a day :D and not commenting so I can get more posts. Anyways I'm trailing off, thank you for responding, I hope yu get some data to back up your "damages" bring in that 5$ price per steem :D
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You're a whale, so on my list.
I'm not arguing about whether it's good for people to "buy influence".
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Fair enough brother. Take care.
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Keep up the good fight!!
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@thejohalfiles you bought STEEM with your money to have vote power over the platform, use your votes how you wish since they belong to you
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Thank you for this.
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How can dolphins or minnows play when you downvote everybody with 100%?
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No kings crown. Its only the dolphins who get support from a "whale" (no definition of whalr apparently required).
But...if you have 50 dolphin accounts that whale is powered down into, you are GOOD TO GO BABY! Abit (and apparently a bunch of other whales) ONLY wants to punish those with support from single accounts with large payouts. Get your sock puppets ready!!
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Allowing 'sharing' of sp is only going to make this worse, imo.
The guilds will be institutionalized after the community clearly downvoted them.
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Im working on something that will help...and will incentivize whales to stop powering down and start temporarily giving voting power to guilds of people.
And we will have a show as well around it. The main goal will be to gain backing from ANYONE with SP and leverage it to give recources to those who rise above the rest.
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Picking winners IS the problem.
Banding together to pick winners travels through Moscow, to D.C., to Beijing, do you like how the world is being managed?
The 1% sucking up half the wealth to give to their winners while everybody else lives in poverty?
Banding together for power is bad when the crips do it, it is bad when steemizens do it, too.
Vote what you got, make your opinion known, but don't band together with your sycophants to rule the world,....please.
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You will see it is nothing like what u are thinking. And that means you didny even read what i said.
The simple fact is that in the early stages of a platform or ANY business...control is centralized into the hands of the people who know the business.
You should really search for asshole whales. Im not one of them.
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This sounds really cool! Can't wait to hear more :)
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Ok, give me your perspective, I obviously only see mine.
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Your silence, and deflective ad hominem, are allowing my imagination to run wild.
I hope you make your position known to me, or I will have no choice but to think what I think you think,....
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Probably best. I need to prove nothing to you. Im too busy helping the platform to prove myself to every new player who has no idea about me.
I dont expect you to but neither do I see this as a good use of my time. All ill say is people will see.
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this does sound interesting could you keep me posted please :) I tend to miss out and with everything going around I'm sure I can't get past my 100 tabs and all the posts being thrown each day. I gave you a follow but I will miss your post 90% :D so please keep me posted :D
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I do love a good experiment but the negative consequences to downvotes has been discussed & argued ad nauseum. That being said, I'm not one to say this is good or bad but there are a few things I'd like to know:
The last question is more important to me because honestly, I would volunteer for this experiment. I'll take a couple of flags for the sake of seeing how the payouts are affected -- but I would also allow content contributors the option of taking a day off from posting and seeing how our upvotes affect newbies. The key is ASKING for volunteers. I can't be the only one who'd raise my hand for a flag.
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Hi @merej99 - great questions! I'd like to know a lot of the same things. I did create this post with what I do know about the experiment. Hopefully it should at least clarify some of it :)
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/the-whale-voting-experiment-explained-including-downvotes-from-abit
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Thanks, @timcliff - I'm going to check it out right now.
I've noticed a few more accounts doing mass downvotes on posts and comments now. Kind of makes me wonder what's in the kool-aid today.
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My 2 posts of the day have all been mass flagged too :)
The whales that are participating in the experiment are trying to cancel out the votes of the whales that are not participating. Unless all of the whales abstain from voting (or are canceled out) then the experiment doesn't work.
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Even the Nazis were doing experiments without saying anything to their guinea pigs ..
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This should create @abit of drama. :) Here is your meaningless drama coin.
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This will be an interesting experiment not so much from the side of what will the minnows vote for, but rather from the type of content authors who choose to continue to produce content make? Consider content has been long influenced by what whales upvote.
That being said, I don't see how this experiment does not cause more authors to withhold creating content. Authors who have implicit or explicit whale support will (undoubtedly) refuse to release any content for fear of the flag and the rep damage. That leaves the whales with no "default" options, so by that very fact, they will begin selecting other content from authors they would not normally consider. I'd be curious to see when these authors get hit with a full power flag, if they continue to produce content. I would suggest the answer would be they will not, and authors will either withhold or leave.
What would be something interesting to change the nature of the experiment would be to not touch authors whales have not upvoted before. Something like that could change the flavor of content produced in Steemit, the type of content which hits the trending page and the authors who will be there regularly.
I have radically scaled back how much content I produce and increased my comments and interaction, so I've no dog in the fight.
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Steemit is now a personal playground for some of the powerful, nothing more to do it blogging or voting, bloggers and curators are just puppets or guinea pigs for testing, not people anymore.
This shows about the disruptive strategies on steemit that will kill it and in the avalanche itwill take the disrupters with it.
Just lost my Reputation don't care about money at all.
Please show your power and silence me totally to show how things work here.
Inside censorship is totally evident, in a place where we are avoiding outside censorship.
Run for your lives because this is guerilla warfare.
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you do sound a lot like @ skeptic and @ iloveupvotes there are a lot of "dust" accounts floating around :|
I do hope all the "wars" stop but people shouldn't take a platform s seriously, imagine getting unfriended in facebook to zero, so what :D are they really your friends, if you are valuable you will be upvoted and your reputation will only decrease for a short time, so what, are numbers that important, sure it's fucking annoying to get trashed around, but learn from it, plus it's not like we have done anything helpful staying here pushing buttons and bots around :D
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My friend I do look like myself , I'm not carrying any group's message or affiliation.
It's not about Reputation or Money, I don't care about that, I just feel that no system of governance can use their Power to experiment with their citizens.
Every time this happens in History it has a sad end
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yup well it'a "decentralized" system so you are just getting a bad feudal lord and being a part of a war you didn't vouch for, nothing to see move along :|
yeah I know, very medieval in character. I get annoyed with people, sorry to take it out on you. It just proves how bad it feels to get fucked with. Anyways experiments can't last long, it's not productive and is unsustainable, maybe check stellabelle and beanz for the votu podcast and the hotline from stella :D
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Well, my friend, we have to fight for the dream to became Reality. :)
The blockchain can't be the same Reign of Fear, normal society is today.
The problem is that some people that have Power start using and abusing Authority as it usually happens when there are material things involved. :(
And above all the fights for Power use the people as Pawns and everybody should be aware of this.
The ones that paid for Steemit to happen (they are right to be angry) but I don't see them all going around and "cutting people's heads".
I think investors should be fighting for consensus between them otherwise, everybody loses, steemit, steemians, and "governance".
In my view, the blockchain is an "engine room", a technological infrastructure that can be used in the future to provide an environment for a better world where everybody can be heard and take ownership of their destiny in their hands, without the interference of chiefs or politicians.
"When rich people fight wars with one another, poor people are the ones to die." - Jean-Paul Sartre
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yeah we have all that history for something, the problem is people are too young in their mind and lack the connections between each other. You can see divides even here, even the two man team that started this is no long there. So far we need to support both and support each other :D too much maybe. But I have my hopes and I would like them to turn up into something :D
here is a cheer :)
Alexi Murdoch - Blue Mind
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Fascinating. Bring on the excitement!!!
In fact i just upvoted a post and gave it five cents. I am positively orca-ish!!
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Interesting.
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I noticed that with a few of my upvotes too. It was kind of cool to see the monetary value jump, especially since I'm still a baby dolphin. BUT I completely know how disheartening a downvote is for the sake of an experiment. On the other hand, this entire platform is a grand experiment.
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I can understand particularly now the pain of an downvote as rewards seem to be getting smaller too. But as you say. It's all an experiment . What if through something like this everything got changed up and all of us started to be able to affect a reward by five or more cents it could change the whole dynamic
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And you tell me this is a test lol??
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Not all the donkeys have left yet. :)
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correct
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This is a test - it is only a test. If there was a real emergency you would be given instruction.....
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Lovely reply @whatsup.
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Not sure if it was lovely, but thank you! grins.
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A failed test that only required some actual deep THOUGHT into the simple game theory behind its premise for it to be (rightfully) killed before it could grow into a real life rapist.
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When I made that comment, I had no idea about the flagging. There wasn't any "Edit" yet. Yikes, I see what he might be trying to do, but the victims never enjoy this.
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The simple fact is that what he is trying to do could EASILY be done by tweaking some of the chains variables...or better yet maybe he could use some of that $100+k he made from SELLING STEEM (and putting downward pressure on the price) toward BUILDING A SOLUTION...like i have done with nearly all my far smaller 25k+ earned. I guess its just easier to flag people for f******g misuse of the platform. When its not deserved.
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I know how much you have man and how much ive made (and spent to build stuff). Dont try to tell me you havent AT LEAST made that because ive made and spent over 25k in total...maybe more, for tools to fix these problems to be built. But this is beside the point. The point remains that the way you and others unleashed this caused Damage when it COULD have been fruitful.
Wth are you trying to measure anyway? I dont say this to be a dick. I say it because if its an experiment it is a terribly constructed and executed one.
Btw, id love to be a witness. Let me get one up and running. Its far easier than writing posts. A slight learning curve but no worse than learning markup. Would u upvote one if i asked you? Or have i made you hate me? Lol..
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another fine soul :D
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hihihihihihi
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LOL
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If this will help steemit, so be it
But i think if you or any dev elaborate more about what happening and why? That will be more helpful.
By the way i upvoted your blog and it seems that my vote have slightly more value than usual
Thanks in advance
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at what SP whale starts officialy ?
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Nothing official.
All subjective.
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Like top25 aka first page of http://steemwhales.com/?p=1&s=total maybe ?
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Not only those.
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Its an arbitrary list? Why did you choose this arbitrary list? Wat was the reason for making this choice arbitrarily? How does it HELP the giald of your "experiment"?
Hint: if u cant answer with anything but "its all subjective" you have failed already.
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Exactly. There's no point to an "experiment" if you have no parameters and just make shit up as you go.
For example: the edits to this post where he now wants to consider "countering" bots and trails. Good luck with that, considering that's how most of the votes are cast on this platform. The active human user base is pretty small.
What is the point of this "experiment" again? To show us what we already know about removing selected stake from the voting equation? Fantastic! That was already known when the blockchain was designed.
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errrrg abit >.<
please lets do this right??
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THEN WHAT ARE YOU MEASURING abit?
Wtf is this study really accomplishing if you DIDNT CARE to even establish wtf u are measuring????
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I'd been finding rewards were down, but let's see how it goes.
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The amount of rewards will not go down. The platform will pay out the same amount of rewards regardless of how many whales vote. If the whales don't vote, then the votes from the dolphins and minnows will have a lot more weight.
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My reward has gone from $ 9 to 0.7 ... Thanks @abit I repeat, sought a good doctor ...
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With the whale votes removed, users who are receiving lots of votes from dolphins will now be favored for higher payouts.
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That's only true if the downvotes are equivalent to the whale upvotes. But that doesn't appear to be the case.
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I do agree that is how it should be done. That is something the individual voters who are downvoting should address.
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That assumes that no whales vote. Are they all in on this? It would be good to see smaller players having more say in the rewards.
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I don't know all of the details, but I believe that enough whales are participating for it to work. If there are whales that still vote, their votes can be canceled out by other whales who vote the opposite.
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That's cool. It will be interesting to see what difference this makes.
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What most people fail to realize is that some of us have lots of influence (and whalevotes) because we put 3 years of hard (and often costly) work and sacrifice into supporting the tech that made steem even possible! When others left, WE sacrificed and many times even paid large sums out of pocket.
Apparently that means I unfairly have too much support and should be downvoted/flagged for my LEGITIMATE work!? Hint...some of us intentionally chose not to have a witness in steem. Whilr some of us run a witness and decide to use their sp to screw those who are literally at the foundation of steems very existence.
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I certainly didn't expect overnight riches. I believe in the technology and want to see it succeed. You early adopters helped it get started.
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Oh i know man. Its just that abit really has cut my pay here substantially with his little (ill thought) "experiment".
What most people dont know is that i have paid nearly all my earnings toward building tools for steem and bitshares to use to the benefit of both...just doing blanket flagging of legitimate posts and work because its "unfair" newbies arent paid anywhere near what im paid (after 3 years of largely unpaid work mind u) is definitely not the answer.
You will build a following who will support you over time. Dont worry about that. But i guess YOU DO have to worry about someone who has a witness and never has to write posts to earn steem coming in and saying "you dont deserve all this support" and stomping on your face with a shit-covered boot...because they have no clue what its like to actually build such a following.
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Upvoted and following. Their is good thoughts in that fuzzyvest
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(replying here due to nesting)
The idea behind the experiment is to see what happens if the whales don't vote, and the voting is left up to the dolphins and minnows.
I believe they have been trying to privately talk to as many whales as possible, so everyone is aware and in agreement, but obviously they either have not talked to you in private yet, or they did and you didn't agree.
If all the whales are not "playing along" then the experiment doesn't work. Due to the n^2 algorithm, it would just give a ton more influence to the whales still voting, and the dolphins/minnows would still have no say. Based on this, I think the plan is to 'cancel' any whales who are still voting through downvotes.
At the end of the day, it is just an experiment. The plan is not to make it permanent, and the whales can chose to end it at any time.
You don't seem to agree with it, but personally I am very thankful to the whales for doing this. IMO, the distribution of stake is one of the biggest issues right now, and if we don't find some resolution to it, then the value of everyone's stake goes down. The 'experiment' is obviously not going to be the final solution to the problem, but the fact that they are trying to come up with a solution is a very good thing IMO.
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Experiments with people's feelings.
Nice for posterity of Steemit.
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The funny thing is...i am easy to reach and am one of the people who has been around since day one. Abit knows how to reach me and NEVER did he even try. Instead...my post about the VALUE of steem being in its censorship resistance and the easily 15-20 hours of time spent promoting steem behind the scenes is SHAT on...
Any way this is cut...it was a terrible plan and terrible execution.
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I don't really think that is what this is trying to accomplish. I agree that the early adopters earned the stake and influence that they have, and I oppose anything that aims to take that away in a way that is not fair to the original stakeholders.
The overall intention is to find a way for the platform to scale to a larger user base, where it is not just the early adopters running the show.
Also to note is this current test is just an experiment. It is not a permanent change, and it is being done voluntarily by the stakeholders themselves.
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You must really want that abit witness vote ;)
Here is the fact: downvoting by abit is an experiment doomed to fail. If he intends only to do this for a short period...why try it at all?
Like i said before...i do legitimate work posting to this platform where for THE FIRST TIME in years i actually get paid for my work. And because my sacrifice has earned some backing from whales, it is considered unfair by abit to the point where he will FLAG my content? There is a reason why it is called flagging---it is meant to warn people that this person MAY be misusing the platform. Am i doing this? To those who know me...it should be insane to think this.
It is precisely these halfassed, partially-thought-through ideas that hurt this platform.
Just because abit can run a frigging witness and code doesnt mean he has the skightest clue about the psychology of incentivizing loyalty to the project.
Hint abit: if you want steem price to go back up...maybe you shouldnt have sold so much steem so early on when some of us were using what we were EARNING to try to continue improving the platform!
Abit will not stop my work. Ive done it for FREE for a long time before he could rape me in the ass here on steem...
I guess abit thinks i dont deserve what whales who upvote me want to give. Ill say this though...the last people you want to shit on are the ones who will do their work for free....because its THEY who will hold up the platform when terrible decisions like abits "test" have pushed away all the people who started actually gaining traction.
Is it obvious to anyone else that abit doesnt know what its like to have to rely on upvotes of people who deservedly trust him in order to get paid for his work? Must be nice sitti g in the ivory witness tower. He acts like hes givi g power back to the people??? I say he gives his steempower away then instead of trashing mine. I mean after all his job is largely automated while mine actually requires consistent work.
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Fuzzy - I have respect for your opinion, but in this scenario I think you are overreacting a bit. This is not a permanent situation. The community of whales is merely running an experiment.
I agree 100% that the communication regarding this was handled poorly, and that you should not have found out the way you did.
I don't know how long the experiment is supposed to last, but seeing as it is not intended to be something permanent, I don't think the impact on you or anyone in the community is going to be that significant.
I think everyone that is involved wants to find a solution that is fair to both the original stakeholders (who earned the influence that they have, and deserve to keep it) and finds a way to address one of the bigger issues that is causing everyone's stake to go down in value.
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I find myself on your side, downvoting is more than just taking rewards, it hurts feelings, and that can't be measured in usd.
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It honestly is the only thing that makes sense. Im glad to hear you are thinking rationally. Maybe you should run for witness. I think its unfair witnesses are paid because they dont even post to blogs to earn their funds! (Joking...but u can see how quickly idiotic, unchecked reasoning gets out of hand).
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Lol, I'm just trying to make waves so that maybe a whale will buy my silence,...
Downvoting is a necessary evil, I'm not sure that this is good way to use it, but I certainly support his activism.
I can't be a witness, I don't have the coding skillz.
Mine stopped advancing on the TI-99 4A when I left for the army.
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Do you support my activism? I literally made a post about how i got Steemit coverage among thousands of people who are looking for censorship free alternatives to reddit and other platforms. It was the culmination of MONTHS of outreach and getting shot down by other players in the space...and i got on here to spend 6 hours detailing WHY STEEM is UNDERVALUED (censorship resistance) and then @abit downvotes it? Punishing me for getting upvotes from whales who actually appreciate me reaching out to these people...
Maybe i shouldnt reach out to people? That is my response. Maybe i shouldnt use my expertise and beyondbitcoin brand to help steem since i can get attacked like this? Maybe i should warn others as well?
This is the kind of response you get to half assed attempts to redistribute wealth. I have no incentive to use what i have earned to help steem if steem will shit on my amazingly taxing efforts....
Flagging IS a necessary evil...to be used ONLY in cases when someone has BLATANTLY misused the platform. Everyone who pays attention to my posts will realize i dont misuse the damn platform....and the whales who follow and support me do so because they have learned what kind of person i am AND KNOW MY WORK IS VALUABLE!
What this is...is an unnecessary evil. If you need more clues why...ask me if i plan to tell more people about steem as THE place to go when censored by other platforms. Instead...if this persists, i will just get a second job where abit cant demote me and my work. Sure its in his power, but he and all other whales should really consider if its good for steem. Hint: kilking the oaks that have weathered past storms is usually a BAD idea.
Flagging is used for blatant misuse (child porn and other extremely illegal/damaging behaviors).
THIS flagging war (errr...i mean "test") is blatant misuse of the platform.
As for the witness, dont thibk its above your capabilities as it definitely is not if you are willing to take 20 or 30 hours to realllly learn. You DONT need coding skills to be a witness. All you need is to set up the software and let it run on a protected system....(and have a backup in case something odd happens to force you to restart your witness).
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Absolutely, @fuzzyvest, I support everybody's standing up to be counted.
It sounds like you have done a lot of things for the community.
Thank you!!
I don't agree that this test will achieve the goals desired, but I do like it when somebody gets his dander up and starts to push back, I'm insurrectionary.
I hope that you get out there and make some waves, too.
You definitely deserve some recognition for what you have done.
We, those outside the inner circles, need to know what you have contributed so that we may pay proper tribute to your achievements.
I don't like the downvoting, and I wonder why @a**hole can still be seen on the interface.
Perhaps comment downvotes should hit reputation, also?
Why have you stopped putting out original content?
I would assume that given the opportunity I will learn more of the coding, atm, my internet connection is intermittent and limited.
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Well downvoting actually was taken away early on (which abit SHOULD know) for the reason that we are seeing now played out here.
If u go to look at the flagging feature, it soecifically even states it is to be used to combat misuse or abuse of the system.
Though i appreciate your understanding here, i promise you i wouldnt be even saying what ive done unless my hand was forced (i rarely give myself credit). The onky reason i do is because od hos absolutely ridiculous this is.
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Replying here due to nesting.
My support really has nothing to do with witness votes. I have been discussing changes with many people in the community to look for ways to balance out the interests of the original stake-holders, with those of growing the platform to scale to billions of users. It is widely agreed to by most people in the community that the distribution of stake is one of the bigger issues holding the platform back from growth.
You can read some of my views on the subject here:
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/whales-can-the-community-buy-out-a-portion-of-your-influence
Also, this is not just @abit's initiative. It was discussed among many of the whales, and there seems to be a majority consensus behind it.
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The majority consensus to flag people with whale accounts who gain support of whales?
Ok so what happens when a bunch of "whales" just power down into 100 small dolphin accounts and start upvoting things? Where does this madness stop?
The problem with steem isnt the distribution at this early stage. Its that we have groups of whales who decide its a good idea to start MISUSING the flagging feature of steem!
This is ridiculous. The system at present is FINE. Steem has been ive for less than 1 year in Beta!
The way to fix steem is to actually change the N^2 aspect of rewards, not to flag peoples content! There is historically consensus on killing poor jews too...
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Based on the fact that all of the whales were not contacted prior to the experiment, I agree that the execution was bad. There should have been better communication.
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Dude...i literally just recruited someone who is promoting steem to people who have been censored on other platforms as well as to her 60,000+ followers.
I was planning on taking the funds from that post and giving them to her to incentivize her learning more about it. So I need to know: Do you think this is behavior whales should punish? Because very few others will actually take the time to even do such outreach and never give up until results are produced. And im sure minnows who havent done shit to prove themselves will complain about not getting paid fairly by whales. This doesnt make it right for them to wish me to lose support because I am willing to spend hours upon hours doing something they are not doing...
Ill tell u right now if they had informed me of this bullshit, id have just stopped trying to even get her. They DISSINCENTIVIZED me from doing what I DO BEST! Considering im one of the people who is credited with having an important role in steems creation + the FACT that i have not even asked for my own personal witness (like many posters here have done) should tell you I am not the kind of person you want to hurt...because givi g resources to me means giving resources to someone who GENUINELY has cared about this platforms best interests from day one. Last I checked it is people like me who build and give steroid injections to entire communities. These are the kind of people i WANT to reward! (Or at the VERY LEAST not punish!)
SO...what are the consequences of these whales actions? Did they REALLY help? Or are they shooting all of us in the faces?
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If you have been involved for so long, why is it that you can oppose a very core idea of Steem, that every is free to use their votes as they wish, and that this freedom is essential to the health of the blockchain?
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Hi there @abit i guess the purpose if this test is to measure how would be (the system) without whales votes? something like, testing the "lower voting power" users? Please correct me if I'm wrong but would be nice to know the purpose of such test
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which is the purpose of the test? I mean, can this be significant of the voting weight of not-whales if used behaviors are not changed? It take times to change behaviors and expections, I believe.
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@abit Just to know: how much time the test will run (there is a deadline)? This test involves all posts without exceptions or it's random?
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Thanks for the reply, @abit
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We are going to keep less STEEM here because of these kind of games. You have your experiment, and we are removing the STEEM we purchased because of this kind of attitude.
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@abit
Screw you! Who are you to downvote me when I just started to pick up the pace on my rewards? I'm am no whale. I'm over here broke! You done pissed off the wrong guy!
https://steemit.com/family/@tradz/mulligan-fun-f0r-the-family
I was complaining about not receiving rewards for the longest and this is what I get???????
You owe me an apology and $16.82 worth of STEEM;(
Do the right thing! I was counting on this reward so that I can use it to reinvest Ass Hole
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Strong people create, and losers put a flag.
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How I think this experiment might go..
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I don't agree, but upvoted because that was funny as hell 😂
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LOL...God its good to see people who dontnhave theirnheads in their asses
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Did anyone set a soul stone?
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God Damn It Leroy!
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Hey, @abit! What can you do? Only put the flags? Put the flag here:
https://steemit.com/life/@investigator/especially-for-smooth-and-engagement-or-life
Or place your photos, and we'll see what you can do, except to wave flags.
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You stole from me one point of my reputation. Before the start of the post she was 54, and now - 53.
Can not you create a decent job? You are jealous?
I looked at your account. Ha-ha-ha )))))))).
You Resteemed only. You did not create anything yourself. You're jealous and that's why dunwoits.
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I've been on Steemit for two days. Today I do not want to write anything here any more.
I do not care about your wars. Do you want content or bleating of sheep? You decide.
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dude I've been on steemit for 5 months and I have written 30 posts at the most. are you up for producing a quality insightful scientific read every day four times at the least? if so then feel free, you can always make millions from your discoveries getting funding from your own discovery channel.
Why care who votes for you how does that change what you have made. Why does a number affect your actions. Why does 5.00 make you feel good and 0.05 make you feel bad. Isn't it more important to bring about change and enlightenment or are we just chasing the never ending loop of rewards, I don't support experiments and still I don't support bullshit arguments either, sorry I rarely get triggered. (Haven't gotten so far so I'm stopping :D )
Cheers mate, if you have questions feel free to ask, there is the welcome page with quite the hefty summation of introduction posts, but if you want a personal opinion or insights just ask :)
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The question is not the amount of compensation;)
I make money in another way.
If there are complaints about my content, then I will listen to them always. But when they flag my works silently, it looks like dullness or stupidity.
Why call on the authors if they are not needed? You want an experiment - dig into the code or get the focus group agreement.
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I agree with you :) I have to say I'm not in my place to get between you people and your arguments. I think the experiment proved a point and disrupted the status quo, but it went too far. i'm hoping it stops after the HardFork, oh well hard already forked.
I'm going to stop on commenting this issue, like it or not, abit and the whales can do what they please
https://steemit.com/blockchain/@kurtbeil/blockchain-ethics-and-oligarchs
please watch the video and help others see it too its valuable in my views fr people in general to think ahead and to fix their core values. I wish we had more whales to look up to not just to hope we are on their good side so we aren't dust in a few days :D
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OK. Thank you!
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This is a poorly executed idea and does not help the community. If you think that @abit should at least explain himself. To me, this feels like a stakeholder saying, "Hey, I'm running a little experiment. Let me take a big shit right in front of your door so I can study how if affects the flow of traffic to your corner of the world. Fuck everyone if they don't like it and no, I won't explain my thinking behind it because I'm a whale."
Really, this makes sense to you? Well, the community doesn't seem to get it and apparently you don't care about that.
Whatever dude, you must be a geek with no social skills or room awareness. WTF? All this makes me want to do is stop writing for a few days until you quit dicking around. It seems to me that this is no better than @asshole's experiment and has just as much value and meaning to the community.
EDIT: Just saw a post explaining the reasoning behind this experment by @meesterboom and I get it now. I can see the results are my votes create greater payouts, but @abit I still think you should explain what your intentions are before springing shit like this on people. Get some buy-in first. You're a smart dude and should know this.
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This is cancer. All it does is demotivate content creators who are the ones who contribute in a positive way and bring value to the platform. I can't be bothered playing silly games and having my work punished for the sake of someones ego.Oh yes, aren't you clever....Bye...
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I think you need to read the whitepaper or better yet this https://steemit.com/payout/@timcliff/everything-you-need-to-know-about-potential-payouts-and-flagging-for-new-users
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Read it 8 months ago when I joined but thanks for patronising me.
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Does this mean that @abit is the new @asshole?
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apparently, @asshole doesn't agree with you... lol
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On the contrary I think he agrees, he only downvotes what he likes.
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that's an interesting point! btw, I only upvotes what I likes. :)
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And that's why he is the @asshole.
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actually I am glad to see whales get together and decide to do something. It is so designed that stakes mean power and rights here. As such, to put it simply - whales own this platform, not minnows or dolphins, at least currently most stakes are in whales' hands. Whales unite, or at least gather together to discuss, means better governance, at least theoretically. If this model is not gonna work, then die faster, so we can all save our valuable time for better use. So, this is my argument for supporting this experiment - of course, according to this argument, my support doesn't matter. :) yeah, I just want to say something. special tribute goes to abit - at least he is the only one to go out on a limb to do all these unpopular moves.
last, not trying to please both sides, but I do understand why so many deserving authors get angry when downvoted. I tend to agree that we should get rid of downvotes in the future.
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Currently, the "downvote" is a flag. There is no point getting into semantics as to what situations it should be used and what situations it should be left alone. It is an integral part of the voting system and people are entitled to use their power as they see fit.
When a system fails because everybody acts naturally and within the boundaries of the protocol of the system, then the system needs to be tweaked such that people can continue to act naturally without having to consider whether it is culturally accepted.
In the same way, whales can come together to collude and centralise their voting power, they can also choose to withhold their influence and make everyone else's influence have more weight. Of course, it makes less structural sense because if the goal was to reduce the influence of whale voting power, then it negates :
a) the point of having large SP
b) any reason for stake weighted voting
Of course, the ideal situation is such that actors can act in such a way that aligns their personal interests along with the interests of the platform. Should an actor be allowed to act in such a way that benefits the platform but at the expense or detriment of themselves then it is again a failure of the system and thus some rework is required.
I support all manners of experiments in the vain of the end goal of creating a system that makes more natural sense to all participants.
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Thanks for opening a new challenge! Can't see these donkeys anymore 🙄
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Außer meinem hoffe ich doch @surfermarly :-)
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LOL :) Sind die nicht alle gleich?
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nee - meiner ist witzig :-) aber ich versteh Dich, wollte Start Foto ein anderes nehmen (ändere ich auch gleich) - dann sieht es im Newsfeed etwas "differenzierter" aus
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Hey @abit !
How are you doing? I hope 🤞 well given the circumstances 🙂. Reframe whatever frustrations you might encounter as evidence of the passion out there for Steemit. Bots don't have feelings 😉
Know how penicillin was discovered?
BY ACCIDENT! Whatever the results of this experiment, they may be the source that leads to a unified agreement on direction that takes this thing full-on mainstream.
I applaud your moxie - this is THE most unifying event that I've seen where every sentient Steemian is weighing in.
MAXIMUM RESPECT @abit ! 🤝
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The frustrating thing to me is that when you do a tests...you generally know what the hell you are measuring and how you will measure it.
You also make sure to involve as many people as possible unless you explicitly need people to act as controls.
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@abit
Please remove your downvote from my post - https://steemit.com/travel/@frocush/st-petersburg-before-the-cruise
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Please remove your downvote from my post - https://steemit.com/travel/@frocush/st-petersburg-before-the-cruise
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just repost you post, whatever you will get a notification from cheetah and a message from the cleaners at worst, if it's that important since payouts are closed after 30 days I don't see a reason why not to, gave my opinion at your place :)
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I heard this was going on, but I thought it was already going on to some degree.
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Interesting. I'm curious to see how this will play out. Obviously not everyone is playing this game, but it will be interesting. :-)
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It's about damn time, thanks, @abit, I have hard feelings for that dang curie.
Banding together to rule the block is bad when crips do it, it's bad when steemizens do it, too.
When the whales realize that what is playing out in the larger world is playing out here on Steemit, perhaps they will swallow their greed and let everybody else have some real food rather than the scraps left over by lack of whales eating enough,...
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For all "you should do this / you shouldn't do this", where we are in your opinion? This is blockchain, it has its rules. If you want change, change the rules.
Please, tell Satoshi Nakamoto that he was stupid to work on a thing like Bitcoin.
The solution was always there! He just should write that "People, you shouldn't double spend." LOL
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Here's a running survey, @abit
Take a look at: The Steemit Test which was written based on a call out & a quiz on flagging
What do you think?
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Amplifying the comment, @abit
There's already a Steemit downvoting survey running.
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Oh, thanks.
Conclusion?
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The survey is not yet completed, @abit
Will report back in, once its done.
Here's the link to the survey.
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Interesting! Is this a confirmed experiment?
@kus-knee (The Old Dog)
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yup abit is the chef responsible for the menu, so it's confirmed because it's been going on for days, is it a good idea and as it been implemented correctly, maybe not so much. So it's not a official experiment from steeminc that would sound a bit stupid :D
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Maybe it whale be a fluke and make us all steem? Blub-blub... :)
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Thank you for posting @abit.
That certainly seems to be the case.
All the best to you. Cheers.
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Serial flagging
This is not the behaviour of the @abit that I have grown to admire.
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I just posted an unintended negative effect of the balancing flags. If your reputation is higher than the person you are flagging to balance it can bash their reputation, AND it can actually hide their post.
It might have been good to temporarily disable the reputation system during this test. Perhaps you guys can double check the effect of your flags and get a group of people able to counteract the reputation ding to follow behind you.
EDIT: I am not against the experiment. It is worth testing, but a little planning could have helped a bit here I think.
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I'm confused, but if this is a test or an experiment, ok, I'm curious to observe the results ^_^
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Hi @silviabeneforti - I am replying here (to your other comment) due to the nesting limit. Here are three posts that I think will help!
https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/the-whale-voting-experiment-explained-including-downvotes-from-abit
https://steemit.com/steemit/@neoxian/the-experiment-communication-required-this-is-a-social-platform
https://steemit.com/payout/@timcliff/everything-you-need-to-know-about-potential-payouts-and-flagging-for-new-users
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@timcliff I read all the posts you're linking, but thanks to share them , maybe they can be helpful for some people here ^_^
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Non mi sembra proprio un test @silviabeneforti il mio post è passato da 9 dollari a 0.7 sinceramente mi sembra una cosa da deficienti...
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argh... orca loca, praticamente il 99%! Il mio riferimento al test è in merito al post, stanno sperimentando quanto può pesare in più rispetto al solito il peso di delfini e acciughe se le balene non votano i post. Il problema è uno: se ci fosse coesione tra loro nessuno vedrebbe abbassare il proprio payout in questo esperimento, invece così qualcuno vota e le altre balene gli annullano il voto downvotando.
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Per ora non mi sembra che il mio voto di minuscolo pesciolino sia aumentato di influenza...
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Se il test funziona io son più che contenta, non te lo nascondo. Credo che il problema sia la "comunicazione" interna. Le persone che si son viste decurtare improvvisamanete il payout senza sapere il perchè sono comprensibilmente e umanamente perplesse. Abit, se non altro, ha dichiarato che sta testando la cosa, per questo ha sicuramente il mio rispetto, resta il fatto che se in una community si procede a fare test di grossa portata senza veicolare informazioni, il minimo che ci si può aspettare è che gli users si sentano come cavie da laboratorio ;)
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Se ho capito bene e' come se ti avesse tolto il voto di tombstone (whale).
E' normale che post con 100 voti non arrivino a raggiungere un dollaro di ricompensa, a meno che non ci siano voti di balene o balenottere.
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Ciao @bnoise io mi chiedo per quanto tempo vogliono fare questo stupido esperimento.. Roba da matti...sono solo invidie
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Credo almeno 24 ore, per vedere una nuova trending page fatta da pesci piccoli invece che da balene.
L'esperimento è interessante e il linea di massima tutto Steemit è soggetto a esperimenti e cambiamenti repentini, c'é scritto sopra Beta quindi per me non ha senso sperare in guadagni stabili o comportamenti prevedibili.
L'esperimento poteva essere gestito meglio sicuramente nella comunicazione e probabilmente anche nella pratica.
Poi capisco l'aspetto psicologico negativo di prendere un grosso flag, ma si trascura che il grosso flag arriva dopo un grosso upvote. L'esperimento consiste nel togliere i grossi voti, se riesce le ricompense saranno dello stesso importo di prima ma saranno piú democratiche (del tipo che 200 voti ti daranno il circa il doppio di 100 voti, non come adesso).
In definitiva non vedo problemi nell'esperimento in sé, si dà temporaneamente piú potere ai nuovi utenti, non meno.
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Io trovo che dare un grosso flag senza fare una valutazione qualitativa del post sia un errore enorme e nasconde invidia e voglia di farsi notare. Alle cavie poi si deve chiedere il consenso. Sono sicura che i loro "amici" non saranno interessati dall'esperimento.. Comunque aspetto che finisca questo delirio
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You should be doing your "test" with a 25 Rep account so you don't effect everyone's rep....
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https://steemit.com/payout/@timcliff/everything-you-need-to-know-about-potential-payouts-and-flagging-for-new-users
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My latest post got cut down from 13 SBD to less than 2 after I got 4 days of very poor payouts. There is no justice in this world. Should I just grin and bear it?
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(grabs 3rd bag of popcorn...137 replies!!!)
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Lol!
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interesting
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Minnows make abit their hero. I knew it! Not all whales are bad!!!! Thank you abit!
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Wow...just wow. This makes him a hero? Because it helps you no doubt.
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I'm a minnow that is so confussed about some of these whales downvoting dolphins and minnows. I am new here and none of this helps me. I have to get bits an pieces to this insane war and some whales don't want that. I've been downvoted by 5 whales on one post that wasn't even making a dollar. Thank goodness most of the community doesn't act this way!!!!!!!!! Wondering why the price is going down?
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I hope it will be fine, and all that happened was a misunderstanding. @abit
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A misunderstanding or lack of understanding? I believe #2
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Thanks for your downvote! all in drugs and doctors!
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lol what happened?
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Lol.... The Whales eat all my reward. I hope this is only a test
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https://steemit.com/payout/@timcliff/everything-you-need-to-know-about-potential-payouts-and-flagging-for-new-users
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@dan is determined to ruin your test
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What has he done @felixxx ? Oh damn I read your text again - bad me
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I've been away for a week and came back to find this post re-steemed in my feed. I read Whales no up voting test and also, in a comment of yours, we have decided ... yada yada , and thought you were operating from some kind of a consensus. I upvoted your witness.
But then I looked some more at my feed, a few hours later, looking who was downvoting just who's upvote, and saw that your we had mislead me.
I stopped bothering to read @dan's philosophy articles a couple of months ago, I really think he allows his prose to lead his thoughts into strange places, and he may be some kind of a dodgy operator, but he is an identified human and in the forming of community, which is the priority here, that is a plus, if not a prerequisite: he gets my support.
There is another account, downvoting with you in your experiment, which is not identified or verified. It could be either a truculent teenager or a committee of ostriches, pasting in a series of cut and paste comments with their angry beaks, and your siding with this nonsense, your failure to state the context of your_experiment_ or accurately to define your pointer, your we, means that I quickly removed my vote from your witness.
Your experiment: I hope you find my comment useful as one data point in your results.
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The experiment is actually being done by a large group of whales. It is not just @abit. The goal is to get all of the whales to not vote, so that the dolphins and minnows (temporary) have more influence. Any whales that do not go along with it, are getting 'countered' by downvotes. I created a post with some more info: here.
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AFAICS the large group is not identified, and so my POV remains
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That's fair :)
On a decentralized platform like this, getting 100% of any group to go along with something is a little bit like herding cats.
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[nested] You don't know? You believe? @timcliff, it's 4.45am here and I facepalm.
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It is not my experiment :) I have seen a lot of conversations about it between the whales in private chat though. It is not my place to comment on who is involved though.
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Not 100%? Are you implying something like 80% support, among the whales? But if your large group is more like 15%, then I think clique would be a more accurate descriptor. It would be easy for you to clear this up.
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I don't know who is involved (it is not my experiment) but I believe they needed to have at least 50% in order for it to work.
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Goal: Laudable.
Means: Abominable.
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Huh, will be interesting to see the outcome of this. Lots of hurt feelings, I'm sure, but mixing it up abit.
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@abit, could I ask you ? When this experiment will end exactly ? Thank you!
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I thought you guys were considering 1 million steem power or higher a whale. What is the actual cut off being used? I've seen people getting down voted that are 250,000 steem power, and some that are 750,000.
Was a cut off defined for what you guys were considering a whale? (serious question)
I thought I saw 1 million steem power somewhere but I was just responding to @merej99 and realized some of the people she was pointing out are less than 1 million steem power and are getting flagged to counter act.
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thats the problem. experiment wouldnt be bad if it was said clearly who is a whale, who is not and right %s are used. not that you get 3 SBD of 1 whale and loose 15 with abits 100% downvote.
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What is the duration of the experiment? How long will it last? thanks
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A downvote was applied to partially counter earlier whale votes as an experiment to reduce whale domination of voting influence. Not intended to express an opinion on the content nor result in a net reduction of rewards or reputation (automated notice)
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lol irony
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yeah :D sinkholes :D
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you can consider adding this post into the explanation posts?
https://steemit.com/steemit/@meesterboom/the-excitement-of-the-whale-experiment-why-we-should-get-on-board
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Thanks.
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please delete this account
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haha -- there is always something going on, here on Steemit. I go away for a few days and come back to this commotion. I remind myself that this Steemit platform is just an experiment to grow the underlying blockchain. Good luck with the experiment, everyone! I guess I better make a post or two, to help create some data points, lol.
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Ок. I realized that Steemit does not need authors. Stimit needs fuckers.
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