The world is at war, Steemit the microcosm is reflecting the macrocosm

in ungrip •  7 years ago 

@fulltimegeek shared a post on his blog regarding a conflict between two groups of people on steemit.  You are welcome to go visit his wall to read the article if you are not familiar with what is going on.  I cannot remain silent on it as the violence continues to escalate and being an advocate for peace, it is my duty to confront those who engage in violence and point out ways that we can remedy these types of situations.  

I'm not going to name people as this is not an isolated incident as I've seen this behaviour more than once in my short 2 1/2 months on this platform.  So let me explain the situation using alias instead so that we can all see what is going on in all these different scenarios.  PosterA writes a lot of posts and is upvoted by a lot of people, but specifically is really liked by a whale WhaleB, whose vote is worth hundreds of dollars.  As a result, PosterA dominates the hot and trending lists and is even collecting a significant slice of the rewards pool each day.  He is getting rich as a result and people accuse him of greed, spam and threatening the continuity of the steem community.  Users C & D are upset, so they decided to martyr themselves by attacking PosterA in an effort to shut him down, who in turn has reciprocated the attacks, along with followers from both sides.  The battle is spreading and the method of attack is the flag button, which results in the loss of rewards from posts and an attempt to decrease each individuals reputation at the same time.  

Steemit is a platform that functions on the principle of anarchy.  That means we are all learning how to govern ourselves and be peaceful within a community with no centralized authority.  To impose our moral and ethical standards on others through force, violence or coercion violates the tenants of self-governance and the principles of anarchy.  

I want to start with WhaleB, the whale who's vote is worth hundreds of dollars.  His vote is his to do with as he pleases.  It is his steem power that he is exercising and as such, he found a user who posts content that he likes and he is encouraging the user to keep up the work.  The story about the land owner who goes to town to find laborers to work his fields comes to mind.  He found some in the morning and offered them a penny for the day.  He then went out at noon and three to find more.  Then towards evening he found more and offered them a penny.  When it came to payment, the workers who were hired first found it unfair.  His response:

Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ - Matthew 20:15

WhaleB is being very generous and PosterA is being attacked for that generosity.  In a system of anarchy, we must avoid imposing our moral and ethical standards on other people, which is a statist methodology and way of thinking.  If you want a system of imposed governance, I recommend people return to Facebook.  It has a centralized authority that has taken up the duty to censor and impose community standards on the users.  If people violate those standards then they are punished.  This is a centralized form of governance and it is already established.  That way if somebody misbehaves you can report them to the authority and get vengeance.  

To attack PosterA because of the generosity of WhaleB violates the principle of self-governance and anarchy.  Anarchy is not violence and chaos, it is a form of self-governance and to not recognize that reflects whether people have established their own law form upon which they will govern themselves, especially when participating in this form of experiment.  Anarchy can only work if people choose to govern themselves based on a law form that advocates peace and freedom.  

I will also suggest that PosterA reciprocating the attack only escalated the war and fed the cycle which starts to feed on itself and it will grow uncontrollably.  Having supporters jump in on the war then makes it a world war as this conflict indeed has no boundaries.  I am an advocate for peace, so no war is preferable, but I refuse to engage in violence or coercion to make that happen.  

Some would suggest that PosterA writes spam and if you feel that way, then mute him.  That way his content will no longer show up for you, but is still available for others to follow as they see value in his work.  Forgiveness seems to be missing in all of this.  Let's face some cold hard truths.  We are not all going to agree.  But this boils down to freedom and I'll let William Cooper describe to you what it REALLY means as he says it best.

If we all want freedom then we can NEVER silence another individual.  If we do, we silence ourselves.  If we all want freedom then we must forgive and protect EVERYONE'S right to be free as well, no matter how much we disagree with them.  It is critical that we all comprehend what William Cooper is trying to say as it reflect exactly what Christ was saying in his parable regarding the land owner looking for workers.  

I stand here in support of PosterA to say and post what ever he wants.  I also stand here in support of WhaleB to vote as he pleases, User C&D to say what they want and I rebuke anybody who should engage in violence or coercion to prevent that process from unfolding.  Greed may be involved, but we are not justified in shutting down somebody else as a result of it.  Rebuke the greed as you have a right to your views, but it is not morally or ethically justified to engage in violence or coercion to shut others down in order to enforce your own sense of justice.  That is not freedom.  That is no anarchy.  That is not self-governance.  That is not Christ level consciousness.  So what do we do if we feel we have been trespassed against?

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. - Matthew 18:21-22

I ask everyone, especially the Stewards of Gondor, to rise above the violence and lead by example by not engaging in a violent affront to freedom and anarchy.  I appeal to those directly involved to end the violence now and find within yourself the means to recognize the violence, end it and forgive one another.  We all have a right to post what we want.  If we don't like what we see, we can mute the user.  But the moment we start attacking one another, we have abandoned the concept of freedom, Christ level consciousness and self-governance.  If we can end the wars here, it will end the wars in the real world as the macrocosm reflects the microcosm and visa versa.  

That will require a great deal of work and it starts with the man in the mirror!  I pray that men and women of good conscience stand up for peace and freedom.  


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One point that I would like to add.

If the reward pool is amiss, people can downvote to pull the rewards from an individual.

However, if all those downvotes at 100% which were used to downvote poster A were given elsewhere, it would alter the reward pool drawing from poster A large percentage take.

Instead of downvoting his post (and others) to negative by blasting him with hundreds of dollars of downvotes, upvote another person with the same hundreds of dollars and have them trending.

I am sure there are thousands of minnows who would love that.

Yes, exactly and it was a point I missed talking about. Thank you for bringing it up. I notice that there is still steem left over from the pool that gets distributed to share holders. That means the pool is not even being used up completely. I agree with you @taskmaster4450, if people directed their energy to supporting the content that they like, it would have a huge impact on the pool and the steemit environment in a much more positive and constructive way. Thank you for raising that point. <3

I love your constructive answer to this situation @wwf.

My mea culpa was because I feel into the emotions/ego of the situation. I felt poster A was attacked too quickly without checking things out. Since that time, there certainly have been question raised about the situation (above and beyond the pissing contest back and forth).

What is most upsetting is I personally have seen posts that commented on the topic, by people not involved, downvoted by one side or the other.

To me, it is one thing to use downvotes when you think there is something amiss with the reward pool, it is another to downvote because you dont like something or want to silence it....that is entering into censorship which, as you pointed out, is what happens on the controlled sites.

Thank you @taskmaster4450. I witnessed the war and went digging around last night to see for myself. I could not be silent as my silence would mean that I agree with what is going on. I don't agree, so I had to speak up. However, how do we do that without resorting to violence? By getting on my own soap box and speaking my own truth. It may fall on deaf ears, but the ones with the eyes to see and the ears to hear will get the message. The more of us that lead by example will then have greater and greater influence over those who are blind or deaf to the spirit of this message. We can influence the war and end it without engaging at all. Of that I have no doubt. It takes longer and requires a leap of faith, but I know in my heart that is how this war can be resolved AND the wars that rage on outside our windows in the real world as well. We all must lead by example in peace and freedom for it to work. Thank you for your kind words my friend.

Ya, the censorship thing was weird to me, like I get retaliation, but this like trying to shut out anyone who takes any little stance towards one side or another. Sometimes the posts downvoted didn't say anything in favor of one or the other!

I honestly can't tell if the account has nefarious activity going on. At worst it seems one investor is propping up another account, but shouldn't said investor be able to use his vote how he/she pleases. Whether we like it or not we don't get to decide who they vote for, they could upvote every stupid comment they post if they wanted, would that be reward pool abuse?

totally agreed.

Exactly. I wrote an entire post about this. In the simplest form:
If there are 50K people posting Each $50 upvote makes everybody loose 1/10th of a penny and each $50 flag gives everybody 1/10th of a penny. Even if this was $500 it's still just a penny. A penny isn't a justification for a war. Period.

One big inaccuracy in your post is that there aren't two groups. There is only one group vs individual steemians.

The people opposing the haejin group have far more SP but they are disorganized individuals. If we were organized and randowhale and grumpycat + other flaggers went all out against the haejin group, all of their accounts would be dead by now even if rancho was voting on them with 100%.

But those opposing him are getting a bit organized little by little.

Agreed! We need to move past the destroying each other phase in Steemit and in real life, there really is no point to it. Everybody looses and it must be awful to carry around that much hatred and vengeance!

@wwf it seems as though you've put a lot of time and effort into this post explaining your views on peace for the situation. You are however totally missing key aspects of the situation.

It's not really about pressing mute and ignoring a Steemian who has ovibously built a team to take, take, take from the other users. Turning a blind eye here would not be the correct method. I understand you are one for peace but you have given no solution other then ignoring. 6% of the reward pool to one user every week will escalate to 7% then so on.

This is not a matter or jealousy, greed or any other accusations made by the trolls. Should we turn a blind eye if there were 17 accounts doing the same thing because it's there money and they can do what they want? That would be 100% of the reward pool to 17 users.

I think the problem with your post is the fact that you are comparing yourself and what type of person you are to the situation. Meaning; if you were poster A or whale B. However Poster A and Whale B are not you and there intentions for peace and having a long term successful blockchain are non existent.

I have yet to find a whale similar to Whale B. I've looked and I can't find another Whale who only upvotes one Steemian and no others.

I strongly disagree with your views on this matter and feel perhaps you are misunderstanding the harm to the community. You are an excellent writer and a superb teacher. Your knowledge on off grid living and homesteading is comparable to nothing I've see before. However your knowledge of the blockchain, cryptocurrencies and Steemit is not all that great.

These users will end this platform if this continues and muting the users well they drain the reward pool is not something that a lot of Steemians will stand for. Investments are at stake here. Some people's lively hoods are at stake here. Some people's evening entertainment is at stake here.

One does not simply turn a blind eye to reward pool abuse!

@taskmaster4450 and I were discussing earlier, that if people voted for meaningful content with the full weight that the flagging war has thrown around, the weight of those votes could have potentially diminish the 6% take of the pool down to 4% or even 2%. The issue with a 6-7% take on the pool is associated with a small pool and very large whales. However, how can somebody be taking from others when the whole entire pool is not even claimed each day? There is lots of left over steem waiting to be claimed that gets distributed to vest holders on a daily basis because there is not enough upvoting taking place. I see it all the time with my steem power slowly creeping up minute by minute. It is like accusing me of taking 3 cookies instead of 1 when there is still 20 cookies left over and everyone who wanted a cookie got one! How did I take a cookie from somebody else when there is still left overs and nobody wants any more?

However, when 5 million users get onto Steemit, getting a 6% take on the pool will be nearly impossible to accomplish due to the mere size of the ecology in the pool. This is an anomaly due to small ecology size which would be fixed when the platform becomes more popular. This is not the first time this has been an issue and most likely won't be the last either. By supporting the minnows with our votes, we can increase the pool and make it even more difficult for people to take such a large percentage. We are swimming in a pond and by supporting new users and increasing their steem power, we can turn that pond into an ocean. Right now a whale in a pond can cause all kinds of problems, but when we get a whale in an ocean, an equilibrium can be found and these anomalies will disappear. An ocean provides all kinds of room for all kinds of users. Ponds are very crowded and disruptive. It is our duty to turn the system into an ocean so that we can remedy the issue. We do that by upvoting and supporting, not downvoting and attacking.

However, your assessment of my knowledge and skill (whether founded or not) still does not take away from the fact that resorting to violence to protect the pond is not a viable option. If we have to resort to violence to protect the pond then we are no better than those who are engaged in violence to drain it. We will NEVER get rid of greed and I'm not saying turn a blind eye to it either. I will be front in line to rebuke greed, but I will do so peacefully. What I am saying is that we can address these issues in a peaceful way and that the war itself could destroy that which it was meant to protect.

You are entitled to your opinion @hendrix22. I respect your right to share it and express it. However, I disagree with it! The pool is not being abused, people are being abused and the abuse must stop. We cannot force our ethical and moral standards on others. We lead by example, not by force and coercion. I will agree with you on one point, peoples livelihood is on the line here and through my work I pray that one day that will not be the case as we should all be dependent on Mother Earth, not some fictional construct we created.

I am here to make that point. The spiritual implications must be addressed throughout all of this and peace, freedom, prosperity and love are all critical components to that process, whether it is here on Steemit or in the real world. If self-governance is not allowed to shake itself out and we resort to violence and coercion, then I fear this won't go anywhere.

However, I still must stand behind WhaleB's free will to 'give' who whom ever he wants. It is his to do with as he pleases. If you fear the pool being drained, then perhaps this post may enlighten you as to how the pool works and the fact that the price of steem is sitting over $8 right now, should help demonstrate that it will become more and more difficult over time for one individual to take a huge percentage of the pool take each day.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@dragosroua/why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-draining-the-reward-pool

Great point about the size of the site(number of users) factoring into the percentage of reward pool being taken. Also, fascinating about the leftover reward pool going to those vested, I didn't know about this, but it makes sense. I didn't really understand the importance of using up voting power for the day to give people value before charging it up again. Think I lost a solid delegation for that mistake, so learned the hard way to use my vote wisely and actually USE my vote. Now I vote too much :)

Thanks for putting so much into your responses on comments, it increases the quality of this post. If I had more upvote atm I'd be spending some here

It is critical that we utilize our voting power. A million minnows can easily out vote a whale! The power always rests in the people and a single individual will always be swamped by that power if he / she tries to stand in its way, especially when it becomes consciously aware of what is going on. The powers that be are feeling that as well. I'm not concerned about a single individual. I'm concerned about the violence that has spread as a result of peoples reactions to that one individual.

That's a good point, you put me in mind again of the real world. We complain that the top miniscule percentage has the lion's share of the wealth while the majority go without and yet we are the majority. If we all turn around and say we're not supporting the behaviour that allows the wealth to flood one way, then it would flow in other directions.

I have to agree with @wwf here. The biggest problem isn't people abusing the rewards pool but users not voting. There were studies done years ago where someone walking with a dollar drops it. What they found is that 98% of the time people did the right thing and brought that dollar back to its owner.

We don't need to focus our attention on the few who "abuse" the rewards pool. We need to focus on the majority who don't. Focus on what you want, not on what you don't want, lest you make what you don't want a reality.

I do agree that we can find macro/micro relationships all around us and I hadn't really thought about that in regards to drama that has occurred on Steemit. I really resonate with your vision of peace. Onward and upward, through the fog!

Stumbled upon you by accident and so very glad that I did.

:)

This is a great article which clearly argues for love and tolerance.

I am an artist/writer/lightworker and your message resonates loud.

Thankyou.

xox

I am glad you found me. I read your post about your husbands ability to see into the Spiritual Realm. I wrote a book a few years ago about the Fictional, Physical and Spiritual Realms and our relationship with them. I'm finding more and more people who are starting to see the same way as well. I'm excited. Welcome to my blog.

https://steemit.com/book/@wwf/graduating-life-with-honours-full-book-with-links-to-each-chapter

I try to stay out of these types of actions or reactions. I don't need the drama in my life. I avoid toxic people at all costs. I don't tolerate greed very well either. I will only try to come between warring parties to make peace when I feel that it would be of benefit and the two warring parties agree to a truce. Otherwise it is a waste of time and energy. Some people just enjoy being rabble-rousers.

I've been known to take issues like this on many occasions as I use them to demonstrate a point. Some people don't like it when I do this, but by remaining silent we consent to it continuing to unfold. So I will speak up even when it causes me great stress. The 'old' me would avoid confrontation at all costs, but it nearly killed me. So I've since learned how to confront and I face it head on even when my knees tremble. Otherwise, nothing changes and I refuse to accept that in life. But there is a difference when it ends up being perpetual. At some point the energy is not worth it and I must walk away. The energy and time is draining especially with those who don't have fertile ground upon which to plant the seeds of freedom, peace and love. I can only help those who have the will. Those who lack the will are rabble-rousers and I have no time for them.

Hi, Rob. I really appreciate this post. Anarchy is about Evolution, not REvolution. As we evolve in the direction of Anarchy, it is people like you who are reminding us all that it is the violence - in whatever form it takes - that keep us in REvolution. This Evolution is going to get messy. There are many people who still haven't learned how to disagree without being disagreeable. Thank you for reminding us.

You are welcome and thank you for raising the evolution point. You are right and I've written about that in the past as well. Do I know you, perhaps from facebook? It is hard for me to make the connection between people I know and their avatar names here.

This is Muriel.

lol. I know you!!! hahaha. Welcome to steemit my dear friend! I look forward to our exchanges here.

I am still trying to understand the whole influential system of steem and why specific users have a vote that is worth more than others. Popularity and power can be very dangerous. Everyone needs to ask themselves, am i liking something just because everyone else does or does this actually have merit. Do we want real discussion, real solutions or do we want an echo chamber? If users C & D don't like Poster's A article then produce something better. @wwf you produce great content, that is what we need to seek out. It may not be trending or hot but it clearly valuable. Thank you

Well point you arose and i am completely agreed upon the logic you gave in it. Especially this one:

Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ - Matthew 20:15

I do believe money is not everything relations and attitude does matter. Peace is the best trait to live on Earth if we are going to violet it's barrier then yes we are demolishing ourselves guys.

Steemit is the community of educated peoples this is the best platform to address people that how can they survive in a best way.

Great Article and well elaborated as well @wwf

Thank you for speaking up about this issue and offering a peaceful solution. And thank you for sharing the video of William Cooper about freedom. He did an excellent job!

If you like William Cooper, he did write a book called 'a pale white horse'. Excellent read if you are interested.

Thank you for your calm article!

Almost everyone who is for quite a while on steemit is watching this event.
I did not engage in the commenting because I did not want to give more energy on aroused emotions; it would just feed the beast one more time.

As you said, this reflects the real world and vice versa. My notion is that as long as humans exist, the "evil" will challenge "the good". We won't reach the point of one terminating the other. That won't happen.

Having said this I already made my ruling and try to live up the ethics I learned from wise role models and people I admire (historical, biblical, philosophical, psychological figures). We've got ethics for thousands of years handed from one generation to the other. Same thing is happening again and again.

The best way to deal with it, is in my view not to feed on top of the war. If the warriors were just left alone in a one on one confrontation, they soon would cool off. Of course they try hard to pull people to their sides and once that is accomplished, war can continue. Therefore one cannot blame the starters and even not the followers because things are just how they are.

If I MYSELF can accept that this events are never to be stopped but will continue to happen, I can make peace with myself. If my wish that war ends, fades away in the daily duties I am pleased to fulfill, war might come to a halt, BECAUSE I accept it to happen. Does that make sense to you?

For me it is the same with death. Death you cannot prevent only accept, the same with birth. That does not mean that I do not engage in human interactions, develop compassion and do what I can.

Peace to you and everybody, though :-)

What you speak of is a fine line. On one side some may take what you said as 'just ignore them and they will go away'. This is a dangerous view as ignoring the war without confronting the participants essentially gives them our consent to proceed with the war, killing and pillaging. Of course, by taking sides we also consent through our actual participation. So what I have learned in my life is that I must speak up and confront all those who engage in violence without engaging myself. I can do that by saying 'no', living in peace, leading my example and rebuking those who engage in the violence. I'm not feeding the war, but I am shedding light on the issues and bringing awareness to the harm being done. I fully recognize that I cannot stop the violence as I cannot change anybody but myself. However, I can influence people and I do that by walking my path and sharing my story with others. If that influence means that some people see what I speak of and choose to end the violence in their own lives, then I have made a huge difference in this world. I know this has happened many times already! If others chose not to end the violence, then I forgive them and pray that Creator softens their hearts so that the seeds of love, compassion, freedom, prosperity and joy can enter their lives. I am at peace with myself and have been for years. That happened as a result of my own work and had nothing to do with what is going on around me. I've accepted 100% responsibility and accountability for my life. That is where my peace is rooted and that is the peace I speak about when I confront others on their behaviours. I avoided confrontation at all costs and it nearly cost me my life. Now I embrace peaceful confrontation no matter how uncomfortable it may feel as I hold up the mirror for people to peer into their hearts. This allows me to do the same as I peer into mine deeper and deeper through this process.

What is the other side of the fine line? Did it come through to you?

I am not quite sure if you are talking to me or to someone who might take the dangerous side of the line - which would not be my own interpretation, as I hopefully made clear. .... If I would ignore war, I wouldn't even know about it. I guess nobody can ignore it even by trying.

My offering was an "if" - I am also not sure if I already got there - to acceptance.

I was referring to somebody taking the dangerous side of the line, my comments were not directed towards you specifically. I think if we ignore the war, our own silence is consent which is violence. As a result, I don't think we can afford to ignore the war. <3

I remember very well, brother @wwf You told me earlier that this is the nature of humans... What happens is very unfortunate... We can't change this and we can't stop this war. But we can spread peace here. Because if 80% of people are doing positive things here this means that the remaining 20% can't affect our wonderful community ... We are here for freedom and peace... We shouldn't let some people ruin our wonderful world......

Steemit is a platform that functions on the principle of anarchy. That means we are all learning how to govern ourselves and be peaceful within a community with no centralized authority. To impose our moral and ethical standards on others through force, violence or coercion violates the tenants of self-governance and the principles of anarchy.

I want to start with WhaleB, the whale who's vote is worth hundreds of dollars. His vote is his to do with as he pleases. It is his steem power that he is exercising and as such, he found a user who posts content that he likes and he is encouraging the user to keep up the work.

In a system of anarchy, we must avoid imposing our moral and ethical standards on other people, which is a statist methodology and way of thinking. If you want a system of imposed governance, I recommend people return to Facebook.

You have given a recital, perfectly agree.

The only thing that seems strange to me is that the flag option does exist, then it is because we also have the freedom to use it, which is a bit contradictory.

I have said this multiple times but controversy creates cash, it has been said over and over again that there is no such thing bad publicity doubly so if its free.

Different from you I don't see violence in a flag just the extention of respecting that its their vote to do with as they please, it doesn't matter if flag or up vote.

Has it been efective ? Poster A probably has more followers and more power than before sounds like a failed strategy.

Is the whole thing damaging to steemit? Hell yes the minnow learning curve is a a big enough barrier to entry without also having to navigate a "war" without understand its impacts still sounding like a failed strategy.

Such agreement! Thank you for putting these things into words and leading by example. It is very helpful, and I believe that this post may in fact change some peoples minds about the topic, or at least, cause them to be more mindful of themselves.

I appreciate that you've taken a stand and expressed your truth @wwf. Lots to learn here in this blockchain world. I will keep on voting! And, learning from all the good posts out there. LOL, it is what I can do until I can get a grasp of it all.

great post but I think alot of peaple dont care about this strategic topics for exemple I wrote post call THE PEACE but no react with this topic or peaple care about mony only that makes him blind and dont see the trouth my post is https://steemit.com/life/@kidous/the-concept-of-peace

Yes. I have friends who have gone to war. My heart weeps but I must stand here and be a witness to what is going on and I pray that Creator softens the hearts of the solders so that we can find peace. Despite it all, peace MUST come from within and it is up to each individual to find that peace. But that takes a lot of hard work and brutal honesty. The war has been justified and the battle line has been drawn. All I can do is continue to walk my path, confront those who engage in war and stand as a witness in the hopes that I can influence them in even the slightest degree.

you are too much

This is not the first time, and definitely not the last time it has happened. :(
If you observe the history of steem,these were here since the launch of downvote/flag.

It was very professional of you to have let them remain anonymous lest another war gets started by them however I do have something to say on the issue, flagging to me should come with explanation in the sense that the flagger should tell the flagee why he or she is flagging them, this will of course make the flagged person have a rethink and make amendment.

Flagging isn't bad, it's just to correct and it will be good to come to a reasonable consensus instead of fighting and cooking war, steemit is our home, most people really on it for survival, let them best this at the back of their minds

Good point. My question is this: What can be accomplished with the flag with an explanation that cannot be accomplished with a direct comment to the individual? Does some form of financial punishment to ensure they see things our way make it okay? Or should the flags only impact reputation? I've flagged one or two people, but only to decrease their reputation as their behaviour was inappropriate. It did not cost them any rewards in the process. So where do we draw the line?

it will be world war4 ...

excellent work , peace begin with a smile & secret to happiness is freedom,, like the post thanks for sharing

Wow great advice and very important ones. Thanks

wahh cool his blog. I like. very good votes. success always for you yes.

While i agree with the vision that peace and talk is always the only good healthful way to solve things, and How things should be done, there is a problem that is rarely brought into discussion, and is related to the anarchy/libertarian ideals.

The way PosterA and whaleB is acting It is not against the rules (the steemit laws), but a big part of the community ser their actions as damaging for the community as a whole.

Even though the one that started the "war" did It in a violent way, using the emotions as weapons, lots of other members tried to bring the peace proposal to PosterA by explaining How his actions were hurting the community as a whole. The main reasons from these community members were:

  • Too many posts (spam) with information that could be condensed in less posts. (He does 10 posts a day)
  • Too high reward going to one person is reducing the reward of the rest of the community
  • Suggestion were made to How the damage could be mitigated, by reducing amount of posts or refusing rewards on some of the posts.
  • PosterA were asked to show his followers that they could contribute with the community, by spreading their attention to more than Just posterA blog.

And these people were welcome with hostility, and posterA kind of made clear that he cares more about How much money he is making than the good of the community.

So here is the conundrum: If a big part of the community sees someones actions as damaging for the community as a whole, but that person dont care, should the community Just shut up and move on while that inidivual continues with his damaging behavior?

In the end, the freedom of doing whatever a person wants can do a lot of damage without boundaries that protect the community. And for that we need better and more Fair "laws" or rules.

In most jurisdictions the burden of proof rests with the individual making the claim. You are making claims but have not provided any proof of your claims.

Spam is, by definition,

irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients. - unwanted or intrusive advertising on the Internet. - Dictionary.com

How is posting 10 posts to his blog, spamming people? He is not sending it to you or anybody else, he is posting it to his blog, a right that everyone has in a system of anarchy and in most free speaking countries in the world. Now, if he wrote a bot to then send links to his blog and post them in other peoples blogs, that would be spamming. So is their proof to your allegation that what he is doing is spamming people?

I've also heard of the claim that what WhaleB is doing is taking away or reducing the reward pool for the rest of the community. Again, where is the proof of this claim? Show me the analysis that if WhaleB stopped supporting this one user, that the rest of the community would have benefited? Where is the harm? I've seen no evidence of a tort of any kind being done against anybody as a result of what WhaleB is doing.

By dictating what PosterA should or should not do with his money is his issue. You may be exactly right and he cares not about the community, but rather has greed in his heart and wants to get rich. Do you think resorting to violence is going to change his heart or is that just leading this model down the path of centralized governance?

We are all here because we reject centralized authority in one form or another. As other posters have stated, greed will always be here. So do we attack those who don't fit the mold or do we focus on building a strong community so that over time it makes it more and more difficult for the greedy to exist within that community?

By calling for 'laws' and rules, you have just slipped into organizing a centralized authority / state run governance model which is the beginning of the end for steemit.

This process is going to be very uncomfortable. Getting out of the mind set of centralized authority is tough because we were all raised to obey and follow authority. However, if we are going to grow as individuals, we must resist the urge to control other people. The fear is that the greedy and violent of the world will destroy this community. By building centralized authority models, these people are attracted to these positions of power and destroy the community. But by learning how to self-govern, we give them nothing to control and they will flounder. But that requires that we all self-govern and have faith that our efforts to build a strong community will repel the psychopaths of the world and over time they will find themselves in no-mans-land. My prayer is that this uncomfortable position will be enough to entice them to change and embrace peace and love in their lives at which point we can welcome them with open arms.

But the moment we start down the path of establishing 'laws' or rules to govern others, we have lost our community.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

But what jurisdiction we have If its up to the each individual to judge what is Fair and punish It accordingly? Because that is what we have now. Since there is no consensus about what is 'fair' and what isnt, then its up to me(and every other user) to judge and punish however we see fit.

And like you said that whaleB can do whatever he wants with his Stack, so is userA and userB, including flagging. In that sense, there is no violence in the flag. And that is the freedom the system allows.

Like all other political systems, anarchy/libertarian looks Wonderful in theory, but the theory never factor in the human Nature.

Nowdays governments are a big problem with too much Power in the hands of few. And yes, there is too many laws created to fulfill the interests of a minority, but there is also high number or laws that stops some individuals to cannibalize entire communities.

The existence of laws, when they come from the community as a whole improve things for the whole community. Its Basic to human survival.

It is simply not possible to ensure peace and without some restrictions that forbid people of doing harm to another. There Will always be someone that will do anything to get Power, no matter the damage.

I share with you the ideal, of good and Just self governance, but unfortunately It is something unachievable with humans.

What we truly need is balance.

I think self-governance is achievable and requires a lot of work. Peace, forgiveness and other spiritual qualities must be engaged for this to work. I speak of this at length in my blog and books. Punishment and violence will not remedy the issues that we are confronted with.

Totally agree with you. Peace and forgiviness is the ultimate goal, and everyone must practice these things everyday, and that will help everyone bit by bit.

But i also have worries about the "between", before we reach the ultimate goal.

I really like the Anarchy/libertarian ideals, but what i learned after some time liking the communist ideals is that the human nature and human instincts for survival have a big part on how the system works on the real world.

Until the day that every human on earth reach the consensus that peace, forgivness and sharing is the best way for humanity to survive, we will still need to establish limits to define what is a bad thing for the community.

The chaos during the transition period will be an uneasy feeling, no doubt about that. But we must work through those feelings and resist the urge to call for governance for that will prevent our transition into peace and self-governance. It may look chaotic, ugly or even painful, but every transition in life is that way. Whether we witness a baby being born or an elder passing away.

I have faith that we can work through this if we can resist the urge to govern others through fictional constructs and trust that we will figure this out. We need to be patient and allow people to work through their shit so that we can get there.

I enjoyed the video you posted above of William Cooper I was wondering if you had any other people that you would recommend on the subject of freedom?

Ummm. Have you read my books? Links are on my wall! Free to read. You can start with 'Graduating Life with Honours', then 'Soapbox in the Forest' followed by 'UNGRIP - the book'. I posted links just a few days ago.

Thanks. I will give them a look now

I think part of the problem is that some users feel he is being rewarded too much, and one of the reasons for flagging is disagreement of rewards. SO taking your logic I'd argue that user C&D have just as much of a right to downvote or flag content as whaleB has to upvote. It's their vote and they can use it however they want. I don't really know if anyone is in the wrong here, if a whale who probably invested a ton of money wants to vote up one person, thats his prerogative . I don't think the poster should be taking the heat here, I also don't think he shouldve retaliated in the way he did. And I agree, downvotes rarely help matters, they could have reallocated those votes to some of us lowly minnows to make a positive impact.

I think the real problem is when people assume foul play by one individual with no direct proof, and then once someone shows any aggression the other party feels like they need to retaliate.

Thank you for sharing your views. Hypothetical question for you: If I give a friend $100 and you feel it is too much, do you have a moral or ethical right to intervene and take some of it away from my friend so that my gift is more in line with your sensibilities? What gives you the right to dictate what is reasonable or not for me or my friend?

While I recognize that the capacity to flag is there, what I am questioning is the moral and ethics behind using it the way anybody involved in this situation is using them. After all, a tool is just a tool. How we use that tool reflects the morality and ethics of the individual using the tool. Much like a hammer, they can be used to build houses, but also used to tear them down and kill people. It is not the hammer that is the issue, but rather how we use it!

I agree with you though; there is no proof of greed or the pool being drained causing harm to the community as a whole. I've only witnessed allegations and that is not proof.

I see what your saying, my response above on @taskmasters comment is kind of inline with this hypothetical. Really, why should we be able to decide how people vote. Whales get their say too, just because we disagree doesn't mean we are right when we do. Nice article good sir

In general, there is always inequality in the world, there are the poor and the rich. if the rich have a desire to share something he will share. and the poor need to work hard to have money. it's true that not always clever people get into the elite. they need the help of respectable people. in Steemit as well as in the ordinary world. Even influential and not very much. so it's the whale's business to encourage someone he thinks fit

a very good post I really like it please vote my post too

Wow well said!

I understand your belief and concerns, and I do agree with your post in many ways. But I do have one question:

If this is what you believe, then do you believe it is also fair that one user becomes extremely wealthy at the expense of other users? Because this one user becoming wealthy is decreasing the chances and the money in circulation for all the other users. Meaning that the rich become richer and the poor stay poor.

It's the same as the real world, all the wealth goes to a few, while the others struggle below.

I don't see 'wealth' the same way as most people do. The wealth you speak of is a fictional construct and throughout history, whenever we created something that represents value, there have always been those who want to get as much of it as possible. I don't value the fictional constructs, instead I value relationships, especially with Creator, Mother Earth and each other. This all could go away tomorrow and my wealth will not have changed. I still live off grid, independent from the vast majority of the man made constructs out there. Greedy men could take it all away and my wealth is still maintained. My wealth is in my relationships, health and knowledge. So if we are going to talk about the rich getting richer, then they will have a hard time getting rich from me. If they want my cryptocurrency, then take it. It matters not to me. The only reason all the wealth goes to a few is because we give it to them due to our dependency and unwillingness to explore that which truly makes us wealthy. That wealth cannot be given away or taken either. Spiritual centric wealth cannot be put onto a blockchain or represented through any kind of currency. It is expressed through the heart and in how we govern ourselves in all our relationships.

So when I say strengthen the vulnerable, what I am talking about is making that which the greedy desire, obsolete! But if we go to war, we add value and they then profit greatly. I'm not actually here for the cryptocurrency. I am here to get away from a centralized authority that was censoring my work and significantly limiting my ability to reach out to people to share an idea that can bring REAL wealth to everyone, to bring prosperity to this planet.

'If they want my cryptocurrency, then take it. It matters not to me.' If it matters so little, why don't you decline payouts? After all, they aren't contributing at all to your wealth, and in reality are probably actually making you more happy.

Because I use the steem to help others. I've delegated almost ALL of my steem to others who are focused on living off grid, peace, freedom and spiritual growth. It has value to them as it is a tool they can use to free themselves. It can be empowering for those who are on the journey towards self-governance. So I share it with them. If I declined the payouts then I could not pay it forward.

I have a question for you: Where is the facts to support that one user is taking at the expense of others? I've seen lots of opinions, but I have yet to see any PROOF that other people are being harmed in any way. I've witnessed emotional plague reactions and envy, but I've yet to see an analysis that proves the assertions of those who are making the claims.

The burden of proof rests with those who are making the claims and right now I see a war of opinions with little facts or proof. So a war unfolds because people are justifying their actions to support emotional reactions. This is a very dangerous methodology which has been used for thousands of years.

Wars are waged with opinions. If there's proof then there's no longer reason for a war, because the answer is obvious and one side is overwhelmingly right. Welcome to human nature.

Very nice man

I'm new here. Need support. I subscribed to your excellent blog, please subscribe and you are on mine. Thank you!

Dear wwf
This comment has nothing to do with this article, I just wanted to let you know that you are absolutely awesome.

Thank you for the compliment. I am a spiritual being doing my best to Graduate Life with Honours. I've made lots of mistakes along that journey and I share them here so that others can learn as well. I am not finished as I have a lot to learn yet and I am not perfect. As a struggle through life, I pray that my struggles serve others, especially regarding self love, compassion, forgiveness, healing and peace!

That is very kind of you and we all have made mistakes in our past.

I wish with all my heart that the region will prevail and prevail

Very good content and great efforts in #publishing

Deserves more #votes

I was #happy to pass from here to see your #publication

I wish my follow-up in my publications and# attention

#Greetings to you and wish more #wonderful publications
@WalidSalah

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Excellent writing and logic in my view.
Thanks for posting this; we are all a little more aware now.
I completely agree with this; "tis not ours to judge another" in most circumstances, and I try not to.
Followed.
Promoted.

great analysis.so cool