Utopian Rules Update #7 - Biggest Quality Enforcement Ever

shivohum2015 (65) · 7 years ago

Now slowly and steadily utopian-io is getting more polished and getting better and better and with these new rules, the contribution would look more better definitely.

Thank you to the team & Have a great day.

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jasonyoakam (43) · 7 years ago

I do really like the idea of a templated project request. That seems like it will be a lot more clear, and it will allow for easier rejections.

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4 votes

lextenebris (62) · 7 years ago

It will be particularly nice if Utopian.io pre-populates the submission with any applicable templates in Markdown for the user to simply fill out as part of creating the post.

That should be a Simple Matter of Programming (TM) (C).

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elear (67) · 7 years ago

It is already like that @lextenebris

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cryptosee (15) · 7 years ago

Great team. Great product. No hype. All action.

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ulkembetil (63) · 7 years ago

Great work 👍🏽

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craim100 (58) · 7 years ago

good update~

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drmake (55) · 7 years ago

Immediate Rejection? This sounds to me a bit harsh. I know you have a lot of work with the moderation. I also agree that they should read the rules beforehand. But reading is not equal to understanding it...and mistakes are part of every human also for moderators :)...so having a second chance should be part of the system.

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5 votes

serkorkin (57) · 7 years ago

I support this opinion.

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drmake (55) · 7 years ago

And the scary thing from my point of view is that it gets unnoticed because many of those new users will just leave when they fail the first time.

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jestemkioskiem (66) · 7 years ago

This is impossible if utopian wants to continue growing. We can't hold the hands of our users anymore. Not understanding the rules is not an excuse just like not understanding law is not an excuse. The users are welcome to ask questions before they contribute.

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yabapmatt (69) · 7 years ago

If a contribution is rejected can the contributor just post it again with the corrections? If so won't this just lead to the same thing being submitted multiple times?

I don't really see how that solves anything except to have more clutter on the steemit.com blogs of utopian users...

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techrube (49) · 7 years ago

Hey @yabapmatt, we cannot contribute to Steem Bot Tracker Project anymore. Please check my last contribution out. The moderator thinks that repository does not follow the utopian rules (README.md, and license)

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yabapmatt (69) · 7 years ago

Yes I've just been notified of these new rules, sorry about that! I've just added a readme and license to the project so hopefully it's good to go now. I really like your suggestion btw!

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techrube (49) · 7 years ago

Thank you for your quick response. I am glad you like it.

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jestemkioskiem (66) · 7 years ago

No, they can't. You get to submit your contribution once, and if there's any major mistakes, the post will be rejected forever.

lextenebris (62) · 7 years ago

This would be less of a problem if new submissions went into a moderation queue and weren't immediately posted to the blockchain, largely obviating any advantage that might be accrued through moderation.

After all, what we really have here is not a question about publishing well reviewed material, it's about whether or not Utopian will pay you for it.

And while I accept that is a different kettle of fish, it's not how Utopian is generally portrayed.

If it were up to me, I would shift the architecture to one where articles are submitted and not immediately posted until they're reviewed, and if they're rejected one could resubmit some number of times for another pass before Utopian signs off on posting it, and thus being at least somewhat responsible for its quality. One assumes that would also come with rules which govern how long Utopian can hold onto it before a writer could just publish it themselves without that invalidating the possibility of Utopian voting it up.

But that makes assumptions about intent which are not supported by observable actions.

What we do know is that Utopian is swamped with kind of crappy submissions which are already tagged with Utopian and the moderators are pretty well beat up trying to filter out the crap, just so they can decide who to throw money at. In the meantime, quite a lot of that crappy content is still being seen by everyone else on the blockchain and raising questions about quality control – which, to be fair, are completely outside the control of Utopian.io.

The architecture as a whole is becoming a problem for the good aims of the project, at least as it's been communicated to me. As a result, they are narrowing their focus, seriously constraining what they intend mods to be responsible for, and abdicating a lot of the space in "open source projects" that previously was implicitly something that they wanted to support.

It's sad to see it happen, and it's doubly sad to see it happen this way, but at some point they simply ended up being responsible for too much money that other people want to get at for attempts at exploitation not to balloon to most of the things they deal with.

There's a bit of baby with the bathwater going on here, but I suppose that's not my problem.

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scipio (65) · 7 years ago

wow @lextenebris !
If it were up to me, I would shift the architecture to one where articles are submitted and not immediately posted until they're reviewed (...)
^^^ That is totally doable and a cool approach! We could make it into a 5-step process:

-1- submit your contribution (only to the Utopian local database),
-2- moderate (reject / approve),
-3- if approved, send a Utopian message to the contributor (via another locally run application, or send emails, or just ask contributors to log back in),
-4- allow the contributor to log back in to Utopian.io and only then let them have their post button
-5- upvote after the contribution was posted

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lextenebris (62) · 7 years ago

It's pretty much the basis of how scientific journals work in the real world and have for – damn, is it centuries now? Centuries, in the case of certain academic publications.

You can even mandate, if you have the manpower and time, two additional things that are very important:

3.5: If not approved, send a notice to the submitter with a list of issues, and allow them to submit up to two more times. If the piece is not up to the standards of submission after three tries, reject the piece – gently – but allow the submitter to post without the Utopian branding or rewards.
3.7: If after a week the submission still has not been moderated and accepted or rejected, allow the submitter to post via Utopian with the tag but without rewards.

(The latter is designed to provide an incentive for the Utopian side of things to press through submissions in a reasonable amount of time. The specific timeframe can be adjusted to suit, but it should be relatively short. If the moderators miss their window, the organization isn't out money but their reputation may take a hit if the piece is truly not up to their quality. That seems like a sufficient threat.)

But yes, overall – I think this is a far superior interface if you want to run a purely moderated organization which wants to both maintain a strong public reputation for quality and have incentives on both sides to follow the rules in a timely and intelligent manner.

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jestemkioskiem (66) · 7 years ago

This is definitely something that we want to consider moving forward, although as Utopian V2 is already in development, such change to our core mechanisms seems pointless, as it would need to be redone anyway for our already coming update.

The situation is not black and white and the decision is actively discussed by all community members and all members of our team to find the best solutions. We are not afraid of admitting our mistakes, and if this turns out to be one, you'll definitely hear about it. Either way, thank you for your concern, we at Utopian value constructive criticism and opinions of our community members a lot.

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edhimuryanto (55) · 7 years ago

I agree with you about to shift the architecture. That is more wise technicaly, but as consequencies more works to do.

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rizalirawan (32) · 7 years ago

My name is rizal irawan i live in banda aceh, and i am a newcomer in steemit.
Please to my steemian friends to support me.☺
Because I'm new and still a lot I do not understand from the steemit operating system .

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dutch (61) · 7 years ago (edited)

You have been given the wrong answer. If a user submits a post that cannot be accepted, then that post will be rejected. However, there is nothing stopping someone from resubmitting the same project again as a new post.

EDIT: I was thinking in the context of translations. Looks like we have a grey area.

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jestemkioskiem (66) · 7 years ago (edited)

That is not true @dutch, we do not allow the same contribution again. This is why the Never submitted before rule is in place. This would also defeat the purpose of this change.

Source: I'm an Utopian supervisor... And consulted this with other supervisors just right now to make sure.

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drmake (55) · 7 years ago

This rule will only punish first-time users that carefully tried to contribute something useful. The reward leecher will know the rules in and out to optimize their rewards vs time spent.

If you want to grow you need to take special care of new users.

If it is because of the workload of moderators then the rule could apply to members with more then 5+ contribution.. by then they should have understood or are just too stupid too do.

jestemkioskiem (66) · 7 years ago (edited)

This rule is specifically aimed against 70% of our contributors which are abusers trying to steal rewards from legit users. Dealing with them takes too much time, and that time would only grow as the time goes on. Every time a contribution is rejected, a moderator will provide a good explanation to why that was so they can improve in the future.

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serkorkin (57) · 7 years ago

Any refusal of the moderator will force the author to drop his hands. The author will think, and where is the guarantee that my next contribution will not be rejected? Why would I work so that the moderator put everything in the basket? So you lose a lot of authors and among them there can be very good authors. Because - once again I repeat - creativity and tedious design have nothing in common - these are two opposites.

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lextenebris (62) · 7 years ago

How do we define "abusers" in this context? That's not to say that I don't believe that you're telling the truth about the number of people who are attempting to get their hands in your pie; I absolutely believe that at least 70% of the submissions to Utopian are intended to do the bare minimum of effort to qualify with whatever rules are in place – but how does Utopian define "abusers?"

That's kind of an important question, because there is a difference between people submitting low quality content because that's what they have to offer or that's what they think the project needs, and people deliberately submitting low quality content just to try to slide by the moderators. The first group can be rehabilitated; they have good intent. The second group is absent good intent and have no interest in being rehabilitated.

If Utopian has discovered means by which you can distinguish these two, given that they have identical content, I would be very interested in discovering this mechanism.

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jestemkioskiem (66) · 7 years ago

"Abusers" in this case would be, mostly Indonesian, users submitting copy-pasted google translate submissions, google translated submissions with some words changed, users stealing tutorials, assets. Basically anything that goes against our rules that isn't just low quality content.

We actively try to find a way to find these without damaging the experience of other users, but as of now, this is the best choice we believe we could make moving forward. This decision could easily be revoked in the future if the situation presents itself.

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lextenebris (62) · 7 years ago

I would definitely say that those fall into the category of people that I would refer to as "abusers."

But, I note carefully, it's not against the rules to submit low quality content – the rules simply define what will be accepted. The current change in rules doesn't really affect this kind of abuser, except to require that they submit a longer section of Google translated text. Continuing to steal tutorials from other sites (I assume, because stealing from other Utopian users would be hideously obvious – though I suppose I should allow for that possibility, too) and the like will not be affected at all.

And the moderators will still have to comb through it to recognize that there is a problem.

I'm on board with recognizing that the current state of affairs need not be permanent, and allowing for that is good. But I'm not sure that the current solutions really address the problem.

Like I said, it's not my problem to solve – for which I am thankful. But as an interested user of the platform in general, I have some tiny stake in seeing that it's done well and some interest in my own work, which in theory falls within the Balla wick of things that Utopian is traditionally supposed to support, actually being supported by Utopian.

I hope that is a relatively reasonable position to state.

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drmake (55) · 7 years ago

I agree with the analysis of the problem . But this rule will not hurt the "Abusers" it will hurt mostly the first time users. People that contribute the first or seconed time. Those new users that might be very valuble to the growth in the furture. "Abusers" likly know the rules and also how to bend them to there advantage.

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abmakko (55) · 7 years ago

scrolling through this thread just describes my condition right now with an utopian contribution

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yabapmatt (69) · 7 years ago

Great updates as usual. I have one question though:

If your account on an external platform does not match the Steem/Utopian account you must either change it or use another field to show you are the author.

My account name on GitHub does not match my Steem/Utopian account name. I would really prefer not to change my GitHub account name because I have been using it for a long time and I can't change my Steem account name, obviously.

How can I use "another field" to show I am the author? Also, since I have connected my GitHub account with Utopian, shouldn't you be able to know that my Steem/Utopian account has access to that GitHub account?

Please let me know how I can handle this, I would like to make sure my contributions are submitted correctly going forward.

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amosbastian (72) · 7 years ago

On Discord @deathwing said that putting your Steemit/Utopian username in the README.me of the GitHub repository can serve as proof.

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yabapmatt (69) · 7 years ago

Thanks @amosbastian, would like to get confirmation of this from someone at Utopian. This seems like an odd way to go about this since as i mentioned they should already know if you have access to a particular github account if you connect it with their site.

elear (67) · 7 years ago

Yes true @yabapmatt. For github specifically this is more a fast patch until we can implement a way to recognise the user on the frontend directly, while fro crowdin is harder since there is no crowdin connect.

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maxg (58) · 7 years ago

That seems like a pain - if I contribute to some random open source project will I have to ask them to add my steemit username to their readme? I can't imagine too many maintainers would be ok with that

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thegoldenphoenix (61) · 7 years ago (edited)

thnx for the update @elear now moderators have more work to do ;) and contributors should be more professional when writing the contributions .
can you add the link to this post with a message so every contributor can read it .

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adnanrabbani (70) · 7 years ago

Nice improvements but i am strongly against that immediate rejection rule after all we are humans and making a mistake is a common thing, it sounds like if we make a little mistake while making a contribution then all of our hard work demolished in a split second.

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abmakko (55) · 7 years ago

That is my point, they make it sound as if utopian mods are robots that can't also make slight mistakes of judgment.

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rhotimee (56) · 7 years ago (edited)

This is Amazing. Good Job guys... But, no chance of edit is kind of harsh. Immediate rejection for silly mistakes would be very painful.

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4 votes

edhimuryanto (55) · 7 years ago (edited)

Yes, upvote you.

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stephanation (38) · 7 years ago

I agree! Excellent changes, however maybe a second opportunity to fix a silly mistake is apporpriate to avoid snowballing aggravation.

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abmakko (55) · 7 years ago

harsh rules will often lead to harsh criticism from users and new users being reluctant to contribute.

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philiparniebinag (60) · 7 years ago

This is an amazing update to the rules of utopian. But, maybe there will a propose format to all category so that every contributor can get an idea how to write and design their contribution.

For example, in translation category. It is best if there is a propose format to follow especially in words counting or verifying the works.

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plokmi (60) · 7 years ago

I believe there is a format now, you will find it when you try to contribute in the translation category.

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oups (63) · 7 years ago

What a great day to wake up, good news coming one by one..
Excellent improvements, thanks to whoever makes this happen.

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flauwy (73) · 7 years ago

Tutorials and Video Tutorials can be now only about highly technical how-tos that have coding implications.

That basically exludes 99.9% of all tutorials including all the dozens of tutorials I have created for Utopian in the past. Or maybe I misinterpret that. Could anybody link a HIGHLY TECHNICAL video tutorial that fits our new rules?

elear (67) · 7 years ago

We need to rework this rule a little bit. We went too far with this one, i agree.

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flauwy (73) · 7 years ago

I am glad to read that because I believe that tutorials in general are a very important feature of Utopian. Sure, we must reduce the room for abuse and should narrow it down somehow. But explaining tutorials are a very popular content and important way to help people understand different programs. A tutorial for technical details on the other hand might have value to a few developers but in general to nobody else.

I guess this is one of the borders where we are drifting away from open source development and the possibilities of a Steem-based content powerhouse like Utopian.

The question is: Where do we draw the line?

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elear (67) · 7 years ago

I totally agree

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namra (50) · 7 years ago (edited)

So no more videotutorials for artists or users? only developers?

elear (67) · 7 years ago

@namra video tuts and tuts should be highly technical. We had a lot of issues with end-users tutorials where we see little value. This is why we ended up to only accept a certain kind of tutorials.

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ghulammujtaba (59) · 7 years ago

Soon moderators will be able to change category, repository and tags on behalf of the contributor since It is there where we have the biggest amount of mistakes.

So let's suppose I select a wrong repository, would it still be immediately rejected or a moderator will ask me to change it?

Tutorials and Video Tutorials can be now only about highly technical how-tos that have coding implications.

Does it include the video tutorials about a specific programming language like PHP and Javascript? And we can't make a tutorial on how to use a specific open source app anymore, correct me if I am wrong.

If your account on an external platform does not match the Steem/Utopian account you must either change it or use another field to show you are the author. Screenshots of you logged in other platforms won't be accepted any longer.

My Yooutube channel name is "Greek Man" and I always write the following description in my every video.

You can join and follow me @ghulammujtaba on steemit.com, a revolutionary social media that pay you for commenting, upvoting and posting!

Is it enough to prove my identity? Or you guys want me to change it to Ghulam Mujtaba? I don't want to do it :(

Sorry for too many questions!

jestemkioskiem (66) · 7 years ago (edited)

So let's suppose I select a wrong repository, would it still be immediately rejected or a moderator will ask me to change it?

The moderator will accept it and change the repository for you, as long as there's a valid repository to choose.

Does it include the video tutorials about a specific programming language like PHP and Javascript? And we can't make a tutorial on how to use a specific open source app anymore, correct me if I am wrong.

This is only for open source projects still. You're welcome to make tutorials about specific open source libraries of JS, but not about JS itself. You may continue contributing to any open source project as long as it has coding implications.

My Yooutube channel name is "Greek Man" and I always write the following description in my every video.

"or use another field", the description is perfectly fine.

ghulammujtaba (59) · 7 years ago

Tutorials for coding implications it is!

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sarfraz786 (29) · 7 years ago

I am cheerful to examine that since I assume that instructional activities all around are a basic component of Utopian. Beyond question, we ought to decrease the space for maul and should restrict it around some methods. Nevertheless, elucidating instructional activities are an amazingly surely understood substance and fundamental way to deal with empower people to grasp differing ventures. An instructional exercise for particular unpretentious components on the other hand may have a motivation to two or three planners yet generally speaking to nobody else.

I figure this is one of the edges where we are gliding far from open source change and the potential results of a Steem-based substance powerhouse like Utopian.

The request is: Where do we stand firm?

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buitumbon (16) · 7 years ago

nice

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wowearth (39) · 7 years ago

Thanks for this update .

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scratcher (34) · 7 years ago

I really like the idea of a templated project.

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cannavarocanva46 (40) · 7 years ago

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joe28 (57) · 7 years ago

I thinks this big improvement of utopian-io. I interesting to join this one

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martiniman (7) · 7 years ago

It looks like serious business.

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igel2017 (59) · 7 years ago

des ist ziemlich gut glaube ich

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fajrinurdin1990 (47) · 7 years ago

Amazing

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edwuadr (33) · 7 years ago

excelent vlog

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jaldesign (61) · 7 years ago (edited)

Good, time to work again. Blep blep

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simplify (55) · 7 years ago

Good news! I hope that will improve quality of all contributions.

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olamatto (56) · 7 years ago

awwn this it awesome, thumbs up @Utopian

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bitgeek (62) · 7 years ago

Congratulations @utopian-io, this post is the ninth most rewarded post (based on pending payouts) in the last 12 hours written by a Superhero or Legend account holder (accounts hold greater than 100 Mega Vests). The total number of posts by Superhero and Legend account holders during this period was 41 and the total pending payments to posts in these categories was $4548.37. To see the full list of highest paid posts across all accounts categories, click here.

If you do not wish to receive these messages in future, please reply stop to this comment.

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charmsantos (43) · 7 years ago

Wow this is great. Keep it up.

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ungest (56) · 7 years ago

This is a step I the right direction, with this new rules, it'll be easy to make tutorials as there is a predefined step to follow in doing so..

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masterwriter (58) · 7 years ago

Oh my God! This is awesome. You are doing just great. Thanks for the update.
Keep it on.....

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nageshwar0369 (59) · 7 years ago

Nice Post Dear Steemian.
Shared LOVE With My Upvote. How about you Share some Love too?
Cheers and Have a Peaceful, Profitable Year .
Keep Posting

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goviral-ist (46) · 7 years ago

it was even late.Because,topics was false shares filled
This arrangement will make us stronger.Everything will be fine..

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serkorkin (57) · 7 years ago

Everyone can make a mistake or skip something. So a man is built from the very beginning by God - Errare humanum est (lat.). I believe that the inability to change the publication will entail a deterioration in the quality of deposits - small deficiencies that could be eliminated will remain shortcomings.

I also think that any excessive complication of registration of deposits will alienate a lot of creative people from your project - after all, creativity and tedious work are two opposites. If I spend one hour creating the logo itself, and two hours for making a deposit, then it turns from creativity into a bureaucracy. Therefore, I believe that it is important to observe a good balance so that new creative people do not frighten off the complexity of making deposits. After all, a good idea will always remain a good idea, but a bad idea can often be veiled by a beautiful deposit design.

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abmakko (55) · 7 years ago (edited)

Spot on, I just watched one of Jordan perterson speech about how creative people fall behind on evaluation structures in an academic setting, but even academic institutions provide methods of thesis submissions that give room for adequate correction and moderation for scientific journals. this mode of utopian moderation seems to be on steriods.

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serkorkin (57) · 7 years ago

I would like to draw your attention to this point - let organizers of the competitions clearly indicate the end date of the contest, as several deposits were rejected due to the fact that the competition ended. But if in the original post there is no date, the author can already prepare the work, but the contest ends suddenly. The author should know the end date of the contest initially, and not be lost in conjecture. Organizers often announce the competition completed suddenly and the work of many authors remains in vain.

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https://steemit.com/superheroes/@steemitwarrior/hand-drawing-competition-create-the-colored-best-superhero-the-prize-is-15sbd-7-days-voting-days-48-hours-to-vote

kanekken (39) · 7 years ago

Hello steemians im sorry if i comment this one that is not related to this post.

But please all i need is your vote, PLEASE VOTE FOR ME, I worked so hard in this competition, just comment in the link (@kanekken #4)
Please please please guys

o(TヘTo)

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cannavarocanva46 (40) · 7 years ago

Thanks for the great information.

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robinsoncaiso (44) · 7 years ago

awwn this it high-quality, thumbs up @Utopian

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borislavzlatanov (54) · 7 years ago

@utopian-io As you know, open source projects usually have an owner (a person or organization). The owner owns the code repository and determines which community contributions go in and which do not. The owner has spent a lot of time thinking about the project and gathering qualitative feedback from the users, as well as quantitative feedback on how the product is being used. So, the owner usually has the best familiarity with the project and its needs, the current problems it faces and what approaches to solving them would work well.

So, would it not make most sense to come up with a model where each project owner checks community contributions to their project, accepts/rejects/modifies them and upvotes them? The owner would be in the best position to determine how much value a given contribution brings to the project, and upvote it accordingly.

Projects could be registered on utopian.io the same way they are registered on github. And the creator of each project would be its owner. But how would the owner get Steem Power in order to upvote contributions? To get Steem Power, the owner would be incentivized to reach out to the users of the product and get them to regularly upvote the owner's contributions to the product's development. Each new update to the product, documentation, tutorial, news post, etc. could be upvoted by the product's userbase.

This is my understanding of the Steem model.

As a start, to kick things off, all the SP delegations to utopian.io could be distributed by the Utopian team to projects that get registered on Utopian. Delegate portions of SP to the owners of projects you consider worthwhile. And then those project owners will take care of curating contributions to their own projects. If there is abuse, remove the delegation to the abusive project.

What do you think?

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beercake (56) · 7 years ago

I'm fine with immediate rejection as long as a cause is provided. Otherwise it could become quite impossible to troubleshoot what went wrong in the post. Of course the templates help.

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aquafi (46) · 7 years ago

This is Amazing. Good Job ... But, no chance of edit is kind of harsh. Immediate rejection for silly mistakes would be very painful.

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isanmahdaly (25) · 7 years ago

good post.
thanks for sharing.

I give one vote and share your post due to the posing posts.

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nirgf (57) · 7 years ago

Thank you for another great post

Everyone can vote for @utopian-io in one click as well

Vote @utopian-io as Witness

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brainy723 (38) · 7 years ago

Actually this still not clear to me can i get more adds about utopian?

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amosbastian (72) · 7 years ago (edited)

I think this is a step in the right direction. Quality as the first priority is great, and the templates will definitely help with increasing the overall quality of contributions! Amazing job from everyone at Utopian.io, keep it up!

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muliadi (57) · 7 years ago

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if you wish please visit my blog, i need your support .thank you https://steemit.com/@muliadi

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geekorner (58) · 7 years ago

The Translations Category is now opened again. You can submit new contributions in that category as long as they bind to the new rules.

That should be "Abide by," or "adhere to" :)

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fadhlon (33) · 7 years ago

Good

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