First of all, I would like to thank @elfspice for bringing an important issue to our attention, I believe many steemians feel that the witness system is somehow rigged. I would also like to apologize for using the term “circle-jerk”, but I could not a find a different word or phrase to describe witnesses voting for each other for self-interest.
The Political System of DPOS
Being a witness, specially a top 19 witness, gives you Steem (money), but most importantly it gives you power to decide on Steem changes. To be a witness you need to be voted upon, so it’s in essence a Political System. Like any other political system, you need to negotiate and make alliances for others support, this results in what many people may call a "circle jerk", as many witness vote for others expecting a vote back.
DPOS is not a perfect system, but it is the best system I have seen on all Blockchains, on POW (Bitcoin) or POS (Peercoin), the only thing that counts is your resources to either buy miners or to buy the coin that allows you stake, this is of course not very democractic.
However, on DPOS (Bitshares and Steem) you need others support, this results on most witnesses collaborating in projects that contribute to the growth of Steem, they do this to get votes and people vote for them because of their work, we all win. In essence, is like politicians who get votes based on their social work, the only difference is that you can vote and unvote a witness at any time you see fit.
It is not all a conspiracy
Most witnesses know one another, because we talk about technical stuff needed to run a node, we often help each other when one runs into a problem, so normally you would vote for that witness that helped you out.
What I am trying to say is that YES, there is a "circle jerk", but the reasons for that result are not really a conspiracy:
- Making alliances and negotiating with other powerful human beings is normal to any political system
- It is also logical to vote for witnesses that you have had previous association with.
Is there anything we can do to make the system fairer?
The only real way to stop the so call "circle-jerk" is to get everyone to vote, there are plenty of big whales that do not vote on any witness and this is actually prejudicial to the system. If big whales do not vote, then they contribute to making the "circle-jerk" stronger as witnesses just vote for each other and decide who gets to be on the top 19.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, so please comment freely.
Witnesses getting ready for a Hard-Fork LOL
I'd love to a see a downvote option.
I'd love to see 1x Stake rather than 30X stake. Meaning, instead of getting 30 votes each at full stake weight. I get 100% of my stake I can split however I would like.
I have 40M Vests. Under 30x 1.2B Vests. Some of the top Stake holders have 1B vests. Under 30X that's 30B vests. The impact of the 30X is huge.
Lastly, you failed to mention how some of the witnesses have a private witness chat going.
Those are my concerns. Thanks for talking about it openly and nice to meet you.
<3
Aggroed
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If you want to understand why it was decided to use approval voting for witness voting (and explicitly to not have a downvote option), please read this: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,5164.0.html (If it is not already clear, @bytemaster in that BitSharesTalk thread is @dan.)
Downvoting was part of the original design for DPoS. But then an attack scenario was considered that led to changing the design to approval voting.
Also, with approval voting you should ideally have no limit on the number of witnesses you can vote for. (That means going to the other extreme of infinity unique votes rather than 1 single vote that you split up.) Unfortunately, the introduction of the time-share witness in Steem meant that there needed to be a strict upper bound on the number of votes, otherwise an attacker could use sockpuppets to exploit it to completely dominate the time-share witness slot. (Note: some reasonable upper bound was needed anyway for memory reasons, but the stricter limit of 30 is a compromise, introduced in hardfork 2, between the competing needs of approval voting and reducing the abuse of the time-share witness slot through the sockpuppet attack.)
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good science @arhag
dont forget follow me to
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love the picture
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Isn't all of the moot with steemit sitting on a 40% stake?
There are a fair number of witnesses that appear to be doing little for the network other than leeching steem. Downvotes seem appropriate to counter them. If the total value of voting percent is based on the absolute value of votes meaning both postiive and negative votes drain your total pool of witness voting power I'm not sure I see the attack scenario. But I fully admit I might be missing something about that conversation.
Arhag, I don't think we've met before. I'm aggroed. It's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you for your considerate response.
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I agree with this. We can't be certain but there sure is appearance of this. Yet witness voting is everyone personal decision.
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So if you can't fight them, join them. evil grin
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I appreciate your comment. I had read a bit about this previously and it was nice to reconnect with this.
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So the whales are there to counteract the 'EVILS' and vote for the 'LAZIES'? Do we put trust in the whales to not become 'EVIL'
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Hi @arhag,
Congratulations! You have been chosen to appear on another amazing edition of "Who to Follow Daily". Thank you for adding so much value to the Steemit community. Steem on!
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Thanks for this explanation, and link to Dan's discussion. It's very interesting! I wonder what the outcome would be if votes could total 1X stake as @Aggroed suggests. I presume it may reveal an attack vector, or ensure that the 20 biggest whales just dictate the 20 important witnesses?
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what do you think of my idea: https://steemit.com/witness-category/@rival/rival-proposal-and-analysis-witness-voting-rolling-defend-system-please-read
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Hello, with my qualities posts and content not getting enough visibility,
I would like to plead in any way whether you can help me out by delegating some amount of steem power to me for me to grow my account and curate more. I will be happy for your helping hand been rendered to me and i promise to make careful use of it and use it also to impact and grow others on steemit.
Thanks.
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Hi, @arhag!
Please support our team (@alexmove.witness and @steemit-market). We ask you to vote for us as witnesses. We are developing automatic checks for the uniqueness of posts, user ratings and other scripts and activities. We are also preparing a big project - the online shop (sale for STEEM/SBD).
Every day we send double cashback to those who voted for us. Your vote is very important to us!
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I've heard about the private chat, as well. I think Steemit should remember what it represents, especially since it's a new platform. Private chats are okay but when they have to do with Steemit's operations it's against the majority's best interest. I think Steemit needs a code of Ethics. If people don't follow them, their account should be terminated.
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As long as there is no clown involved it should be fine. Unless your name is Falcone or Maroni, in that case I'd have to kick you in the nodes...
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I haven't checked the white paper as I'm not very techy. But was thinking the other day to ask....How many witnesses control the show? the fewer the easier for a hostile take over. everyone has their price. And if some big money folks decide to takeover steemit, how hard would that be with Billions to offer? to simply buy the witnesses off?
Same goes for huge BTC mining operations, they got in for the money, not to support the platform, and are in fact making it more centralized ever day with thier greed.
Just my 2 cents worth
Thanks for reading
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Well, I havent done the maths but I guess you would need at least half of the total steem market cap, so around 115M, but we could always fork it and run a different chain, so not sure if the efforts will pay off.
Bitcoin is already controlled by miners, chinese miners.
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Pocket change for the people robbing us all our lives, that's why I like all the new up and coming coins like steem, if we lose control of some just move into another. Someone will figure a perfect scenario some day, might even already exist. where every wallet is equal and no double dipping. we all share equal and grow together. After all it was meant to be currency in the first place. BTC is no longer that, but a store of wealth like gold or silver and that's fine. grand daddy didn't ave it right, but we are building on the platform :-)
Cheers
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Does a whale witness vote have any more power than someone with less steempower or are all witness votes equal?
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Good question, your vote is directly proportional to your SP. So, YES a whale has more influence over the votes.
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That's interesting. I didn't think that would be the case. Thanks for the info. I can see why SP would influence voting power for blog posts or comments but find the idea that a whale vote is worth more when voting for witnesses a bit disconcerting. I wonder why they chose to do it this way?
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In the light of it being acceptable to change the content vote power in HF19, perhaps it might also be agreeable to change witness votes to being proportional to the square root of SP? This would reduce the power concentration somewhat.
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A circlejerk is just a little fun between consenting adults, let's not be prudish.
Oh, you meant something else, sorry...
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LOL
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I think 'reciprocal voting' might be more appropriate, otherwise I can't discuss it with my parents ;)
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I hear you @chitty
Appreciate your discussion and Bravery on this sensitive topic!
Keep STEEM N ON,
Frank
P.S. BTW That's Gangsta! ( your pic ) LOL
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Important information, it would be good for everyone to read especially the whales, thank you.
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That gun is tomphson on crisis action
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I Like How You Compared It To Real Politics :)
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Politics has nothing to do with politics, we need to follow this rule and with this understanding democracy can be better. That picture beneath got me laughing though
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Hello steemian friend ... l am @ardipunti I just joined this community ..
Help me to popularize my account like friends who have long joined in this steemit..follow me and vote me thanks.. this is beautifull care friend....
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I do feel that Bitcoin is a more decentralized system because of that, which I think is essential for value storage. DPOS may be the best system for the steemit blockchain, but I dont think it would be best for Bitcoin. Thanks for elaborating on the topic
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Look at youtube. Most of the more popular youtubers all know eachother and hang out with eachother when they get the chance. I don't think it's a cirlce jerk as much as if the witness's are working together to make something better you're going to naturally grow tighter as a team.
I think most if not all the information for steemit is stored on a block chain it's going to be hard for people to collude together for control. New steemians come in everyday and start poking around the block chain to see what they can find and what's going on.
I'm excited to see as witness's rise and fall how that effects that path forward and the swings of power for years to come.
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Actually, that was one of my favorite parts of YouTube was watching one channel I subscribe to do some sort of video that either included or talked about another channel I was subscribed to.
Hey! TAOFLEDERMAUS just shot a slug AvE made from metal that Cody's Lab got from his mine and HPC had crushed!!
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This car Absolutiont .. Dan always beatifull that... Giid jobb
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Thanks for the information @chitty
very help me
follow me @hattaarshavin
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good post^^
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Article aside... that is an epic pic!!! 😎
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Question: is it important to a user to vote for all 30 quotas that they have, or voting 1-2 is enough?
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If you only want to support 2 witnesses, then that is enough, but I believe it is important to vote if you want to be represented. It is also important for witnesses to listen to their voters of course.
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@chitty, it's rather a tricky area, isn't it? As you hinted at, connecting and communicating is a fundamental part of human systems that seek to "organize" something. And I think an important point to keep in mind here is that "cooperation" isn't necessarily the same thing as "collusion," and cooperation doesn't necessarily lead to collusion.
As far as I can tell (and granted, I am NOT an expert!) the Achilles heel of decentralization is the risk of "fragmentation." When we put too much effort into making sure nobody (or group of nobodys) holds too much power we also run the risk of squelching positives like cooperation and "economies of scale."
In a sense, it's a bit like a farmer's market... both the growers AND the public benefit from everything being in one place. But that also means we have to have a set of (dread!) common "rules" or "guidelines" and includes the risk of "factions" aligning under common interests. But we put up with it, because it really SUCKS (as a user) to waste all day going to 17 individual farms ("fragmentation") to shop for dinner.
Again, this is overly simplistic.
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Thank you for the article and for encouraging us to comment freely. Here is how I feel about our top 19 witnesses. They are complete saints in my book. These folks are very bright and I am sure they could be using their servers and know how to make more money elsewhere in the field of cryptocurrency. Luckily for the rest of us they are committed to Steemit and the idea of a censorship-free social media platform. :-)
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Great post
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Yeah the circle jerk is a reality, I'm not to new to the social game... I have tons of followers in other networks and see it all the time.
The past 50 days I was on steemit, I tried to get into the circle 😂😂😂... many said I wasn't ready yet lol
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Thanks for the upvote @chitty!
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Crazy stuff. LOL that last picture is badass!
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The way you describe it makes perfect sense. This system could be gold but it's not used in the best way so it doesn't really shine so bright right now... I'm just getting into the whole witness voting and I think it's really hard for me to figure out who I want to vote on...complicated stuff but your post certainly cleared some things up a bit, thanks for that!
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This is a very humbling and well drafted response to @elfspice article. In the way that this system is built there is no way around collusion. In a way you're going to support the ones you have association with somehow. If they supported you and vice versa. Which is fantastic, It seems at time that it is a close nit few up there way at the top. But they earned their place and helped others earn there's.
I'm sure if someone else came along and offered something valuable they won't just cut them out or ex-communicate them.
I'm sure they'll also support and vote for someone that they're confident will help the community grow in some way. It would be a conspiracy if they didn't support others but themselves at all. I believe that support is earned or just give depending on the person.
I support all new comers and anyone that needs help. When it comes to a witness vote I'm sure I would do my homework and see what that witness has to offer before casting like anyone else.
I know the top are still limited to 30 votes per just as we are so their votes might not change as much as ours. Conspiracy, probably not. Collusion yes, and there's still room for growth so a new witness can shine or bring something to the table I'm sure they will be considered for votes from the top. I'd like to think this place isn't COMPLETELY about the money.
Things like this did need some light shed on it. @elfspice brings in valid points and I hope we listen to him like we would to anyone else. Without someone having a voice like this and letting others that are playing the system in a harmful manner to the success of others, to let them know we're paying attention. We're listening, and we're here to change things for the better of the eco-system.
I want to thank @elfspice for his amazing article and I want to thank you for such a posed response @chitty. You two have my upmost admiration and respect.
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Love the mafia people. Love the Godfather Pizza too. Interesting. Thank you. I'm DOCTOR OATMEAL from the Original Oregon Island. I'm the one & only JOEY ARNOLD of VIETNAM HAWAII. I'm the Ghetto Joe Cool Kid of MAGA.
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Hmmm. Still trying to understand this platform... I like the vote, but the whole buy yourself some streem to pump up your visibility, or get a sympathetic whale to push your story to the top... I ll keep reading and watching...
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I'm really glad you made this post @chitty.
I started on Steemit just a month ago, and I've been really excited about it. Not just the potential to earn money, but I like the idea behind it. However, I have discovered more about what's underneath Steemit and who controls it. It's not a decentralized platform. The top 20 ppl are controlling it and making decisions that affect everyone. Also, some whales downvote other people's posts if they have a problem with what they say or their position on Steem, wiping out all their post earnings. From my understanding, they just get away with this bad behavior.
That being said, I'm very disappointed in learning "the truth" that Steemit is supposed to be about. But this is life and the world we live in... I'm still going to stay on Steemit and do my thing regardless. Just wanted to comment on this
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Dear Steem advanced,
I really appreciate your reply on my post to tell me the real value of steem. I want to invest very much on steem, but with this business plan I am sure it fails in future.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@itman/attention-there-is-no-income-for-steem-so-the-project-value-is-going-to-zero-i-invite-all-steem-fans-to-tell-me-how-steem-earn
Thanks a lot.
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I don't think you should blame the whales for not voting. Perhaps they are not voting because the witnesses are not worthy. As you know with politics, there is always an agenda. A true anarchist goes their own way, and steers clear of the political agendas being bandied about. The whales are lucky people to be able to stay out of it. In their position, I would do the same. I think that should be the goal of everyone on Steemit who just wants to provide good content.
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Good old Tommy gun Ganstas 😄
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@hcf27 got you a $2.15 @minnowbooster upgoat, nice! (Image: pixabay.com)
Want a boost? Click here to read more!
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