[Witnesses Exposed] What Witnesses Have Done For Us This Week? First Edition

in witness •  8 years ago  (edited)


by @cryptoctopus and @clains

This is important and I urge people to participate

I was inspired by fellow community members to create this weekly update on what the witnesses are doing for the Steem Community. Since witnesses are very important positions that are handsomely rewarded financially, I think it is important to keep their feet to the fire and to inform the community of what's going on in the "inside baseball" of the Steem Blockchain.

What Are Witnesses and What They Do

Steem currently has 19 witnesses that validate the transactions of the network (you can see them here) and they get compensated for every block of transaction they validate. It's a very important job and it is litterally the backbone of the steem blockchain (the technology that powers Steemit.com).

A witness node in the top 19 get paid a fixed amount of about 1 blocks a minute or 1371.42 blocks/day assuming no misses. Payments are ~1430 steem per day (paid in VEST aka SP). At $3.50 per steem that's about $4800 per day each.

Needless to say, this position is VERY LUCRATIVE and is very political in nature since it is votes that put you in this position. For people to get this position they need to be voted in. To vote for a witness you can go here: https://steemit.com/~witnesses

What Does a Witness Do:

  1. Upgrading the software when there is a planned upgrade
  2. Upgrading in the case of a hardfork (emergencies/hack)
  3. Provide reliable price feed

The job could require very little work when things run smootly, but if there is an emergency, they may lose some sleep and be on their toes for emergency upgrades.

I may get some backlash from this but in my opinion it's hardly something worth paying $1,752,000 each per year for.

Should We Ask More For This Price?

People who get to earn the equivalent of a CEO of a Fortune 500 should deliver value equivalent to that compensation. If they don't they should be replaced by someone who can. If we get more competition going in this field then we can expect the witness to increase of value of the network.

How about funding the development of an implementation of Quora on Steem? How about a Github that is rewarded for well documented push request? (You get the idea)

This money could be use to increase the shareholder value of all SP holders and not only for personal gains.

Solution

This is what this weekly update on "what witnesses are doing for Steemit" is about. I think it isn't too much to ask witness to start delivering their own weekly update to justify their pay. What I would do is then compile that information within my weekly newsletter. The ones that fail to deliver an update on their project would be exposed. After all, it isn't much to ask right?

What I am expecting

I am expecting the witnesses to respond simply by providing a weekly update on their blog that justifies their position:

  1. What's they've done this week
  2. What they are working on
  3. How it's going to benefit the ecosystem.

If they fail to do so, I shall call them out on it and ask the community to consider voting for someone who is working on delivering more value than they do. More then promises, we need results.

I will be monitoring the #witness-category tag. If any of you want to campaign for this position, I highly suggest you use this tag and I shall cover your proposal in the next newsletter.

If a witness fails to deliver updates again and again yet remains a witness...this will raise a significant issue in terms the centralization of political power.

Format of the Next "Witnesses Exposed"

  1. A summary and a link to each witness updates
  2. Links to articles of people who are running for a witness position
  3. A Call to action for votes
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  ·  8 years ago (edited)

"People who get to earn the equivalent of a CEO of a Fortune 500"

This somewhat relevant because witnesses do more than run a node, they are also part of the governance process of the network by deciding which versions to run, generally providing input to the developer team, and serving as a conduit for representative stakeholder influence over the direction of Steem. In the great debate over the curation rewards (8.2/8.3 debate), witnesses were called upon to decide which version to accept going forward. The developer team frequently requests input and feedback from witnesses on the content of upcoming releases.

Thus you I suggest that one should choose witnesses not only based on whether blocks are signed, price feeds are updated, the money is channeled elsewhere, etc. but also based on the experience, expertise, judgement, vested interest in the success of the system, and character of the witness.

The Steem ecosystem is now approaching $500 million in market cap and while we may not quite need 19 Fortune 500 CEOs worth of qualifications yet, there may well come a time that 19 witnesses of that stature and caliber would be the best thing possible. We certainly do want highly experienced, highly vested, and highly capable witnesses who are best suited to represent the diverse interests in the Steem ecosystem and make excellent decisions about what makes a blockchain successful, not just server jockeys and grant administrators. Those sorts of qualifications do not come cheap, and if there is too much focus on witnesses as pass-throughs for money, then it will turn into a race to the bottom on compensation and the best qualified by the above criteria will certainly drop out.

Whether all of the current 19 full-time witnesses are the ideal people for the job is something that the voters can decide. My personal opinion is that there are too many witnesses who are there primarily or entirely by virtue of their history with the Bitshares community, and I'd like to see at least one or more from the blogging/marketing side, though last point may be a bit of a challenge since the job does also require experience managing security-critical IT infrastructure (either directly or managing other people to do it). That combination may be quite scarce.

Finally one should not dismiss too easily the costs of the actual infrastructure as Steemit continues to scale up. How much do you think Reddit spends on servers, etc.? Well each witness is something like 1/19 of the backbone infrastructure of Steemit and will be eventually be spending something similar. (Already the costs to run a good witness node, along with associated seed nodes, including redundancy and headroom to not fail in the presence of viral growth, are not trivial.) One of the witnesses (sorry I don't recall which) has stated his opinion that each of the 19 witness slots will over time evolve into significant businesses each managing a data center and significant staff. If so then in addition to the above qualifications, witnesses also need to possess the capability to manage all aspects of this sort of rapidly-growing business without major mishaps, mismanagement, and down time. Again, you do not want the best qualified to drop out and leave the network in less capable hands.

Really well put.

Am I the only one who thinks Gilfoyle from Silicon Valley sounds like a perfect fit too?

Nice rewiev.
I like wath i read ;)

Nice reading!
Please check out new service i just released :) Show some support!
https://steemit.com/steemit/@cryptotony/steem-link-first-steemit-short-url-service-with-bunch-of-features

These are very good points. Well said.

Damn smooth perfect name with perfect power:) I know what that has to do with article lmao, just like how you voted your great rebuttal and paid yourself with more than a pat on the back lmao!

It was actually a well thought out and written reply

Oh I agree 100% just was commenting on the power of steem.!

Sad but true!

AMEN to that. That's exactly the kind of things that people who vote needs to know and set their expectation on. We have to balance between stability, accountability, qualification and performance. I am looking forward to your updates.

Thanks for providing more valuable information on what witnesses do and will need to do in the future! Thanks for your answer to my question on Price Feeds too!

Someone from the marketing/ecommerce side makes a lot of sense as long as they can afford to pay someone to assist on the infrastructure/security side.

Similar to SP, SMD tokens cannot be purchased directly on an external exchange. SMD are primarily earned through contributing but can be purchased by converting STEEM tokens to SMD tokens.

Actually Steem Dollars can now purchased on external exchanges !
https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_sbd
https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-SBD

PS Abbreviation of SBD = Steem Backed Dollars
or just SD = Steem Dollars (not SMD please edit)

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Maybe it would be a nice future to give to all accounts the option to VOTE on how much a fair salary for witness should be and in real time apply the rules.... the salary would dynamically change depended from current circumstances (market cap, needed infrastructure,mass adoption,TRUST etc...)

PS @cryptoctopus don't forget that witnesses get paid for more things...

1.they curate (redistribution of power)
2.they flag content
3.They are TRUSTED (no motivation for "bad actors" if they are paid good )
4.They take decisions for hardforks etc.
5.They are influencing the core developers about the project roadmap
6.They pay for IT security and infrastructure (not much now but the numbers will increase exponential)
7.for the risk they have taken to get paid in future !!! (SP) the most good paid witnesses have made updates day and night when STEEM was not even on exchanges...

PS The rise of the marketcap was too sharp and until the last week the liquid steem (1/104) that earned every witness was not so significant compared to now... I am sure if the price stabilizes most witnesses will significant increase the budget that they will use to contribute to steemit further ... the witness pay can change significant both ways... It is too early to judge witnesses on what they have contributed taking into account what they will potentially get paid in the future since they are paid in 2 years steem power... Judge them for the contribution they have done taking into account the weekly POWERED DOWN funds.... I have for example never Powered Down and have not pocketed a single STEEM for my witness work until now!

that's a great comment and much needed insights. Thanks @liondani

Hey @cryptoctopus, support the initiative to have more transparency on witness operations and projects.

Do you know this information that you asking for we already provide via a mechanism that @ned set up - "The Witness Update Log" - anyone (I believe) can access it here

Is the intention to have us provide these update in both areas, or will this take over from the witness update log?

I didn't know this existed either. I do, however, see a comment by @pharesim which makes me thing the Google Spreadsheet approach may not be the best one:

"voted out another time this log is useless"

Maybe you (or someone else) could go beyond just monitoring the #witness-category and actually reach out to each one individually? It would be a time consuming job requiring a lot of communication with the witnesses, but I do think it would be really valuable to the community. I'd imagine we could create a pool of funds to reward this person beyond just our upvotes on their weekly post.

Seems like a few didn't bother to update that log for a while now...I don't see what are the incentives for them to do it. I would definitely be a great tool if they used it.

By doing it publicly on steemit with a weekly call for people to reconsider their votes is a better way to "keep their feet to the fire" in my opinion.

Thanks for the link - no idea it existed.

Nice one. Great info

Are we paying them $1.75 million per year, or are we paying them something that was worth $125000 per year a month ago and will be worth somewhere between $0 and $10 million a year from now?

I'm not suggesting that the current pay structure is correct, just pointing out that there is a tremendous amount of uncertainty as to how much they will truly profit in $USD.

The article says "Payments are ~1430 steem per day (paid in VEST aka SP)", so if they are paid in Steem Power, it's correlated with Steem price. And they can't even get the money out because it's SP. So it's not like the price has ensured stability - yet the running costs of a data center are escalating due to use and abuse (DDOS).

Exactly my point. They are Definitely incurring costs but only Probably getting paid.

@recursive I appreciate your vote. I've only been here eight days but I am trying to learn and comment/blog with value in mind.

For that money I would expect them to run another public API node lilke this.piston.rocks (which I am paying out of my own pockets).

That does sound like a ridiculous amount. Especially when there's a lot of talk atm of Minnows leaving due to being unnoticed/no payouts.

What does it take to be a witness? Special knowledge? Mining hardware?
This might be a dumb question but I really have no clue.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

May I offer some criticism? The article will get upvoted - and I did upvote too - but it didn't deliver on the title. It's more like "stay tuned mothafuckaaaaz" ahahah :P

This is a valid criticism. Here was the dilemma...How do we get an update from those 19 delegates when there is no incentives to? How can I make it so that I don't have to pull the worms out of the nose of every witness for them to deliver me an update?

I think that as a first edition, it fulfilled it's purpose.

  1. Set expectation for the users and witnesses
  2. Give witnesses a chance to this way of being held accountable and to adjust their tune to it
  3. Informing the community about what witnesses are

Fortunately the quality of this "thread" has improved substantially to justify some of its money by Smooth (as one of the Witnesses) "enriching" the original article with his consequent post.

yes indeed. I do not have the insights that he has since he is a witness himself. My wish is to bring more transparency and inside look to what's going on. His reply was very enlightening.

Yep, a little disappointed that it's a puff piece / hype article.

I also upvoted it though.

Thank you @cryptoctopus and @clains for encouraging community self governance. You have my support.

great post ! nice
Thank you for this information @cryptoctopus

Man only if I took computer software programming in college Id love to be apart of this. @cryptoctopus Good idea yet again great concept!!! Could you explain the vest and how that works if you may please?

wow i didn't even know this exsisted!! I agree with you though, thats a lot of money and we should expect more from them.

Brilliant! Your down the road mentality into what will be best for the future of steemit sets you apart from many of the greedy organizations that have become the norm and can be evidenced in businesses that were bailed out taking employees on expensive vacations and making poor decisions with the power vested in them. If the witnesses get a smaller pay now in the long run it will pay dividends. Glad to have you on board @cryptoctopus!

Good post, and a needed one at that! I truly believe that openness is what we all need the most from Steemit, without it it will stand a good chance of just being looked upon as just another money making schemes.
If its open and honest then the sky is the limit!

The post didn't make many points. The only thing I was able to take out of this is that......... let's make steemit a strong democracy.

Aye to that.

I needed a way to put all witnesses and "up and coming" witnesses as well as users on notice publicly. Trying to pry that information in private would have proven too long and ineffective.

Sure I understand. You future news posts will make sure you achieve your goal.

Great explanation on what the witnesses are. I was wondering what that list was about.

$4800/per day?!

I really need to start researching how this platform works.

each...paid in VEST. (not SteemDollars)

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Right. It is more akin to stock options than a salary or fee for service, because it is tied to the future value of Steem and can't be cashed out (more than 1% per week). This is a good thing because it means the interests of witnesses are aligned with the interests of Steem in terms of long term value (and increasingly so as witnesses are more vested). However, it does mean that you can't reasonably say to witnesses, "You are being paid all this money, so you better go and spend it every week" because no one is receiving that in actual, spendable, payments. Expecting strong qualifications, competence, engagement, attention and effective representation are entirely reasonable expectations however.

I didn't know this existed. Thanks for spreading your knowledge!

Thanks for this @cryptoctopus. I've actually been trying to set up the mining software on my PC (first time mining anything). But I can't see my Witness key in my permissions. Right now, when I try to log in to show the owner or active key... nothing happens. Have they frozen the distribution of the witness keys for a while?
Either way, big thanks to all the current witnesses.

The witness signing key isn't visible on the web site. In the CLI you can use the show_witness command and update_witness command to change the key.

Thanks Smooth

Thanks for sharing and very useful informations. We should adopt to our way of posting. That is it.

can a person with a little knowledge but whos willing to work a lot and learn, become a witness?

If you setup a witness node and receive votes, you will be allowed to produce a few blocks based on your number of votes. Essentially there is a 20th witness slot which is split up among all of the standby witnesses in proportion to the number of votes they have.

In my opinion yes

You could totally make a futuristic movie about Steemit. Witnesses, slack, steem power....all of this sounds like the making of a really good cult classic.

Driven by Steem!

Sorry, still figuring this stuff out, but is being a "Witness" the same thing as being a miner? I was under the impression that anyone could be a miner... making Steem a decentralized blockchain. Do you have to be voted in as a miner/witness?

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

In addition to @pharesim's correct comment about 1/21 blocks being mined by proof of work, anyone can indeed be voted as a witness. 1/21 blocks are signed by a backup witness with frequency proportional to the number of votes. A backup witness is one that doesn't make the cut to the top 19. You can just vote for yourself, set up a witness node, and occasionally (very occasionally if your stake is small) sign a block and get the rewards. If others vote for you, you will sign more blocks.

The top 19 are special because they get to sign a block every round, so 19/21 of all the blocks on the chain are signed the top 19 (1/21 each).

Thank you for clarifying that. I still have to finish reading the whitepaper.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Steem is Delegated Proof of Stake, the witnesses are voted for.
1 out of 21 blocks is mined with a Proof of Work.

I don't necessarily agree with those calling this a puff piece or just "stay tuned". There are many of us out here that don't know anything about the details laid out in this article, and I myself found it quite informative. Hard to believe these folks are bringing in that kind of Steem, but the job is important. Can't wait to read more. Thanks for this.

How about increasing the amount of witnesses by 50 percent and instead of paying them 1,752,000 each a year just pay them 1,232,888 each a year, increase transparency this will decrease the chances of another major hack happening.

i'm not sure more witness is the solution. Consensus will be harder to reach and getting people to find 50 qualified people to do this VERY important job is a little nut. How can we make sure those 50 have the IT/Security/Management skills to deal with the immense datacenter managing job it will turn into in the near future?

your absolutely right thank you for the insight

This is a distributed systems problem. By having fewer "master nodes" STEEMit is able to reach its fairly meteoric transaction volumes.

This was always the intention of the delegates of the Bitshares community - the equivalent of Witnesses here. To provide additional value to the network by growing it and building it with the funds they were able to receive.

Interesting post cryptoctopus. The DPOS system I see as a sort of blockchain republic, with voters, candidates and elected accounts/nodes that are like senators.

Here's a comprehensive guide to Steem witnesses I wrote: https://steemit.com/steemit-guides/@pfunk/a-full-steemit-user-s-guide-to-steem-witnesses

And if you wish to vote for me as a witness I'd really appreciate it! I have been running a node 24/7 since I first got one running back in April. It's running on good hardware (multicore Xeon, lots of RAM) which can be expanded to meet the needs of Steem's growth. You can vote for me here: https://steemit.com/~witnesses or in the cli_wallet: vote_for_witness youraccount pfunk true true

As an independent Australian politician once said, their role was to "keep the bastards honest", not that our steemit witnesses are bastards, oh mighty overlords

Thanks for the research and accountability. It will benefit the community long term.

@clains, why don't you apply to be a witness? I'd gladly vote for you if you did.

Thanks :) Maybe someday ^^

A great article and a great proposal. And a project for you at the same time.

I didn't dive into the concept of a witness before but it seems that there is really little that a witness actually is doing. Run the software, upgrade it occasionally, ... That's about it.

There should be some automatic system to score the witness's activity to gain / retain its position. Besides our votes, that is.

There should be some automatic system to score the witness's activity to gain / retain its position. Besides our votes, that is.

interesting suggestion...
(score about missed blocks, how fast upgraded to the new version,latency etc. could be possible)

Great. I am glad that you like it. Of course, I'll live the technical details to you :)

While there are some hiccups and hassle being a witness (updates,hacks etc) I think they are overpaid. I have seen some witnesses get massive payouts on shitposts and creating very low quality content. This long term is a hazard to Steem and also deincentives people that actually provide quality content.

Thanks for implementing this weekly posting schedule on witnesses. I've been aware that we have witnesses, but its something I haven't totally looked into. I tried to learn a bit about the witnesses, and have voted for 13 of them so far. I need to find out about the rest, and this should help!

Question: What exactly is the Price Feed?

Where does the data for the Price feed come from? How is it calculated?

Thanks to anyone who can answer this, or point me toward an existing post on the subject. I have read the White Paper twice, and didn't come to an understanding of the Price Feed from there either. It might be something simple and obvious, but I'm just not getting it! :-)

Each witness decides independently on a method to update the price feed, which is supposed to provide a good indication of the Steem price in USD. The blockchain then averages these by taking a median each hour and then again by taking the median of the hourly samples over the past week. By keeping the feeds independent, any errors, malfunctions, or disagreements on the best method to assess the current price are filtered into a consensus.

In my opinion it is better that there not be a single method used by all or even most witnesses (for example most witnesses using the same script to update the feed), which case those would be more likely to fail or malfunction at the same time, or just introduce misleading prices due to a bias in the method.

Thanks so much for your answer!

TWO points:

1 It would be nice to know the method which each witness is using to discern the Steem price in USD. Also, where are they getting their data? Bittrex, Bitshares, Internal market, some, all other ways?

2 I would like to know the reason(s) why the Price Feed is important. I assume it comes into play when a person decides to Power Down their Steem Power. The exact amount of Steem they will get each week is based on this Price Feed data. Is this true? Are there other reasons why the Price Feed is important?

@cryptoctopus -- perhaps you can ask the witnesses about their methods and data that relate to the Proce Feed.

Anyone else -- if you can speak more on the Price Feed's importance and usage, it would be helpful as we all try to get as deep as we can into the mechanics of the Steem system we all are using to great benefit for ourselves and the community!

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I can only tell you the method I use which is to usually update it manually giving my best opinion of a fair market value at the time after examining market conditions. (I run a script when I know I wont be available to update it.) The main reason I do this is I see most of the other witnesses using a script and I want to maximize diversity in the method for the reasons I described. I can't speak to the specific methods that others use.

As far as why it is important, it is used for two things. One is the awarding of SD author rewards. Half the Steem paid out from the reward fund is converted to SD using the feed price. The other is the "Convert SD to Steem" operation, which converts on demand using the feed price one week later. (Most people should not be using the latter, by the way; it is intended to be a part of the inner workings of the pegging mechanism to be used, if at all, by expert traders when necessary. In my opinion it is a mistake that it is even available on the web site, and certainly that it is highly prominent where many have chosen it by mistake.)

EDIT: Also dollar values displayed on the site use the price feed as an exchange rate, but that is somewhat arbitrary. The blockchain operations using it are more critical.

@kenny-crane: "I guess on the weekly power down from Steem Power to Steem...the price feed does Not come into play, because we just get an amount of Steem credited to our account that is equal to 1/104 of the amount we chose to power down."

Correct, the price feed does not come into play there

Thanks again for this helpful information, which I think is new to the newer and even moderately experienced steemian!

Good point about the SD to Steem ability here on the site not being the best choice for many, at this point in time.

I guess on the weekly power down from Steem Power to Steem, when we all decide to do that (we do probably want to take some money out of here eventually, although now is probably a good time to power UP!) -- the price feed does Not come into play, because we just get an amount of Steem credited to our account that is equal to 1/104 of the amount we chose to power down.

Great answers, which increase the value of a great article!

I think this is an awesome idea and I'd like to support it however I can. One of the things I'm working on today is building a witness information section into steemstats to help show users what witnesses are all about.

One thing I'd like to see (related to your proposed witness updates) is a specific tag on each of them, say #witness-update. I could then watch for posts by witnesses that match these tags, giving users an interface showing who the witnesses are and what they are up to (with links to their posts).

I also approve of this increased transparency and call for votes occasionally. As a developer who has recently devoted the better part of my time to developing improvements in the steem ecosystem, I'd like to know who I'm witnessing and what they're doing too.

#witness-category is used for historical reasons ;-)

Doesn't mean we can't use em both! I guess I figured that #witness-category was used for everything witness related, I was looking for a tag that was specific to their regular updates without any noise. But now that I've browsed through it a bit, it seems quiet enough that it could be used :)

Thanks for the posting and education! I'll keep on participating the very best I can and work for us all. Namaste :)

Sounds pretty good and even more important "fair" for me.

There not so many fair things in life nowadays, so every new one would be very welcome !

thanks for publishing this.

I've never well-understood the tech aspects behind the back-end blockchain side of things, so have never really understood what witnesses do (and still don't entirely). this article helps clarify... AND, I greatly respect your making it known to the community just how much they're making for their service...

it also takes some balls to spell it out like this and propose they be held accountable to justifying their service, receiving such a high daily reward. It'd be understandable that several of the witnesses might not be so happy to have such a spotlight shone on them. yet, I agree with you 1000% that it's QUITE the significant payout, and it'd be quite fair to hold them accountable to a higher standard of service and regular reporting that justifies their pay...

So on the list of 50 you provided @cryptoctopus , only the first 19 are actually witnesses? I am a newbie and would probably not be able to be a witness, but for someone with knowledge how would they be able to become a witness? Thanks for your response!

That's right. The others are on standby, if they are voted high enough they go live. :)

our full support to the heroes that make all this possible!

Similar to SP, SMD tokens cannot be purchased directly on an external exchange. SMD are primarily earned through contributing but can be purchased by converting STEEM tokens to SMD tokens.

Actually Steem Dollars can now purchased on external exchanges !
https://poloniex.com/exchange#btc_sbd
https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-SBD

PS Abbreviation of SBD = Steem Backed Dollars
or just SD = Steem Dollars (not SMD please edit)

Great work, I'm getting ready to reread it. Thank you, cryptoctopus

Is there incentive to pay more witnesses?

Setting up the standard for the future.

@cryptoctopus is there a way to know how many vote each witness has ?
and also does it matter how much SP you have when you vote someone or every vote is equal ?

equal vote would expose us to sybil attacks. They are weighted by SP.

Ah of course haven't though about it. and can you vote for yourself ?

Thank you for taking the time to post about this. This was very informative. I had seen the term witness, but was not really certain what they did. Holy cow, they get paid a lot. :)

Good analisys thank you for share, waiting for more in depth info

Thank you for this information , @cryptoctopus

Interesting. You might like our blog ;)

So do you need anything from us to do this?

If I am mining (which I am) then will I eventually be in que to be a witness? I got my mining running 24/7! http://prntscr.com/bwdrnu

ths for information ! good job

Thanks for sharing I wait for your next post

I keep reading shady stuff right now. Think I'm going to just shut down and go to bed.

Interesting and confusing stuff @cryptoctopus thank you! Isn't half of it going into the Steem Power which is more like shares which is invested in the long term growth of Steemit, which they are helping to create? This cryptocurrency/blockchain is still new to me and I just started out with Steemit, check out my first blog:
https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@dka/from-south-africa-to-laos-introduceyourself

Here is an Archive of Cryptocurrency App building Code on Github for anyone creating a Steemit app
https://steemit.com/steem/@marsresident/github-cryptocurrency-app-creation-archive

Awesome post. Keep it coming.