In such a situation:
(1) there would have been stuff that went on before which brought about the situation, my own responsibility here (if any) has also to be considered
(2) I would likely be both angry and judgmental
But my anger and judgement would still be a function of conditioning and stress; an emotional response that reacts to but doesn't describe what is going on. Justified/warrented or not is not really the question IMO. In anger and judgement I see a twisted version of reality, I may miss something of what is going on that my help the situation. It doesn't serve, it doesn't enlighten, and to act from such a place can only further complicate the situation.
I can judge the torturers, curse them and call them cruel heartless bastards. This is a judgement based on what I have experienced and am experiencing. It doesn't take into account the reality of how the situation came about, what went into the making of these 'heartless' bastards - in the situation I wouldn't care about the torturer's backstory perhaps, yet it is a factor!
I can act of course I can (if I can. And if I can't that could be a further trigger for anger). Action doesn't have to be from a place of judgement and anger.
I wouldn't change my answers.
Do you believe in free will? In other words, are individuals responsible for their decisions or is it 100% a string of causes and effects in which nobody can be blamed for anything?
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Speaking of 'strings', I have wondered if you are stringing me along and are going to pounce at some stage! However, I give us both the benefit of doubt and proceed with Trust and without blame :D. Here's what I consider to hold true:
Free Will seems at some level to be paramount, something that even God doesn't seem to want to mess with LOL. Sure there are the effects of causes that play out in the present, but we always have freewill choice available to us. Even sitting in that awful situation with my loved one being tortured - horrifying, yet I still have the choice of how to respond at different levels, and this cannot be taken away from me. How I respond in the present to every little event is my sole 'responsibility', mine alone and I am not responsible for anyone else (though I may delude myself that I am). But it is a massive responsibility and I am held accountable by the 'effects' of how I do this: I can react to and create further drama from the effects that I am experiencing of previous causes or I can neutralise them by not reacting with more drama. I can't change the past, but I can have a very big influence on (if not outright create) what is to come (positive/negative, violent/non-violent).
The choices I make are my responsibility alone. Unless I take that responsibility for myself, I will be doing something other than living my own life. Understanding my choices, my responsibility can provide insights into who/what/how I am.
Blame is a distraction from True Enquiry. Everything is intimately and intricately interconnected, a change in any part has an effect on the whole. Accountability is built into the system - balance.
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Sounds like we're on the same page when it comes to Free Will.
I'm still not sure I understand your stance on judgement and anger though. Is it not important to observe a person's behaviors and act based on what you see (i.e. judging them)? Removing someone from your life seems to be an important option, and one which requires judgement of the individual. Also, if we are unwilling to judge a person to be acting immorally and informing them of such, then aren't we encouraging that behavior to continue? Do you not think social pressure is an important tool?
As for anger, it seems like a very empowering emotion in the right situation. It gives you the energy and the will to act in ways that you may not normally be capable of or willing to do. Shouldn't we be angry when innocents are injured or killed? I spent 9 months training to be a buddhist monk, so I understand the whole calm and centered perspective, but it seems wrong to stay there when atrocities are occurring before your eyes.
In my experience, the advice to avoid judgement and anger come from people much less wise than you have demonstrated yourself to be in this conversation... so I find myself confused by your answers.
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Hey, glad you got back and weren't put off by my first para which I think, was influenced by my other discussion on this page LOL. Sorry to think you might've been leading me on to pounce, this is clearly not the case. I have had a look at your blog and I really love your outdoor, nomadic lifestyle! Peace 🔆
I think there's possibly same-page stuff going on with anger and judgement, I maybe need to dig deeper into what I mean by these.
I consider observation and judgement to be different energies.
Observation is emotionally neutral, one can act from a 'neutral' position. Judgement, if it carries an emotional charge (ie if I am seeing the situation in terms of 'me' - how I am offended, how I am hurt, how I am triggered), distorts the process of observation (sure I can become aware of the movement towards becoming judgemental and choose to run with the energy or not - ie to react from a place of being 'offended' or angry etc). I have removed people from my life, but not from my heart - ie I can accept that there is unconditional Love, but that I no longer like/enjoy etc their company for whatever reason. Or if I feel 'wronged', I can walk away.
If I feel the need to respond - and this is anger now - I can do so. I can react forcefully (from a position of neutrality), feel the surge of rising and powerful energy ("empowering emotion in the right situation") and flow with it (this is my so-called experience of 'righteous anger'). What makes (let's stick with 'righteous anger') RA different is the presence of the emotional charge or not ie whether I am acting from the 'Me' self or not. This is subtle, for I may have stuff triggered and be responding to it - this then is no longer to act from a neutral place. I can react to the situation or I react to my judgement of the situation - the outcomes are different.
Why? What purpose would it serve if we can do nothing about it? Rather than react in outrage, indignation and anger it would be more productive IMO to (1) look at what has been triggered within (2) send energy to the situation (best done not in anger), innocents and perpetrators.
Ok, if it is happening in front of me, this is different, for then I can do something about it. Yet again, if I react from outrage then I am reacting to my own pain and hurt which is triggered, and less to the situation. I will then 'judge', rather than observe and my action will not be as 'pure' or 'effective'. I can confront what I see/feel to be abuse/violence etc without bringing in my own personal shit - maybe not easy, but the amount of personal shit I bring into the equation is a measure of how less effective my intervention will be in bringing about a resolution rather than myself further adding to the drama.
The calm and centered perspective is the most reliable place from which to know/see/feel what the right action is.......anywhere else and discernment (judgement even lol, language is vague) is clouded
The faux perspective is to deny/avoid it all, "the advice to avoid judgement and anger" - is just that ie 'avoidance' or 'denial' or 'sweeping under the carpet' or 'not dealing with one's own issues' or any variation on the ego-mind's justification for keeping itself alive, keeping the 'fight/flight' mode active. It pretends to Peace, but inner conflict and division remain. This is a big trap for the 'seeker' to discover and unearth; many have fallen down the hole of fluffy-pink sentimentality!
The key I think is who is acting. The 'I' that is larger than the ego (and potentially nothing other than Chi/Universal energy or whatever name of the undivided universal self) or the smaller egoic 'i'. Who is getting angry, has anything been triggered, am 'i' making it about 'me'?
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Thanks for taking the time to respond to these questions @barge. It has been helpful.
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A pleasure to interact with you @cahlen. Thank you for asking such questions 🔆
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