Hi creatr,

Thanks for the tabs tip. I had not figured that out so I appreciate you guiding me there. And likewise, I am very grateful for the mutually respectful dialogue and tone between us.

There are some points you make that I agree with, but with a different over-arching perspective. Specifically with regard to Jesus personally absorbing "all" the consequences of sin (yours, mine, and everyone's) - I believe this to be true, as do you. The "payment" or "wages" for sins, is nothing short of death itself: "For the wages of sin is death" (cf. Romans 6:23a).

Modern orthodox Christianity for that last 1,000 years at least has equated the wages of sin as NOT being death as the Bible claims, but rather, "life in Hell" - which must go on forever and ever. This notion of an existential, eternal tormenting of the conscious person for all eternity would be a terrifying prospect were it not for the fact that it's nowhere spelled out that way in Scripture. On the contrary: "For the wages of sin is death".

Jesus' vicarious death on the cross for the sins of the world, is not a function for "justice to be served" - a la the paradigm of western legal jurisprudence (or ancient Hebrew "eye for an eye" either). Rather, it is an opportunity for God to demonstrate the certainty and truthfulness of His genuine forgiveness toward humanity for their sins - via the function of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.

Here's what I'm saying:

If Jesus' death (which, again, IS the wages of sin - not LIFE in Hell) serves as an atonement for the sake of justice to be served, then all God demands for "payment of sins" is for one to die and be judged by their deeds. In this case, you, me, and all of humanity are already going to be paying for our sins given our current mortal state. Justice will be served whether we like it or not.

If Jesus' death were to "pay for sins", the wages of which are "death", then he should have just stayed dead forever. No resurrection. No life. No "forgiveness".

The fact that God raised Jesus from the dead was intended as a sign for those who would believe, the "good news" that God forgives sins. By raising Jesus from the dead, God demonstrated His forgiveness. This was Paul's point when he said, "For if by the transgression of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the GIFT of righteousness will reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ." (cf Romans 5:17)

The "gift of righteousness", which culminates in a resurrected, eternal life is completely and totally "free" to the recipient: "but the FREE gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23b)

Now, what I am NOT suggesting is that everything is awesome and kumbaya and nobody gets judged. I am not saying that. There will be a judgment from the Lord, but it will clearly be based on our deeds. (cf. Matthew 25:31-46)

What is at stake for humanity is whether or not an individual will live forever, or not. Whether one is declared "righteous" (synonymous with "faithful"), or not. Whether one is forgiven, or not.

I don't think God holds anyone's sins against them, which is why God does not need to be reconciled to humanity. On the contrary, it is we who should be reconciled to God: "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, BE RECONCILED TO GOD."

The human being who dies in their sins, stubbornly opposed to God, evil in their deeds, without conscience and without remorse - is doomed to destruction. That destruction is final. It is permanent. It is darkness. It is death. It is ceasing to exist. It is permanent.

Sadly, this dark and sobering prospect was not enough for the post apostolic church, which rhetorically re-invented the judgment of God into something utterly ludicrous and man-made with the notion of an eternal Hell from which there is no reprieve.

Imagine someone (let's take "Hitler" as the go-to), who supposedly earns their eternal punishment at death. He is supposedly in Hell. What happens at the resurrection then? Is he just given this awkward but welcome reprieve for a bit? Does he think, "Whoa! I am SO glad to be out of that fire! Oh, wait. I have to go back there? Crap. Bummer!" It just makes no sense.

I am definitely rambling at this point. My apologies. I tend to do that, especially when time is limited for me. Thanks for reading all of this and I hope there were some coherent points in there.

Peace in Him.
David

Peace,
David