Instead of pushing just the concept of 'no government', how about on the way to that goal, you also press for LEGAL dissolution of our government? Because I think that it's the 'illegalness' of ALL these ideologies that has most Trumpsters upset. If anarchists are for the LEGAL dismantling of our Union then I am right there with them. What makes them, in my view, NO DIFFERENT than a Communist, Socialist, or any other ANTI-AMERICAN 'group', is it seems that arms & violence is your vision, not legal dismantling. Therefor I fight your ideology as adamently I fight the Socialist's.
Anarchists 'should' be becoming investigators like crowdsource and LEGALLY draining the damn swamp! Please tell me how you are any different than Socialists in the regards to 'regime change' because that's all it would be were you to see our Republic fall.
Disagree? Please let me know in reply. I'm ready to battle...;)
Source: https://youtu.be/YZOCxWlyqBA
We can't have zero government. That in and of itself is anti-american. The true enemy is not the government, it's greed. It can be the state, the church, the corporation, or the individual who seeks to advance their agenda or gain power at the expense of the oppressed, but the root of those actions is greed.
The truth is we HUMANS need to stop looking at our differences and fighting, and begin looking at how we were tricked into fighting with each other in the first place.
The man you disagree with on politics or religion, may one day be next to you during a natural disaster or accident of some kind. Look into each individual as another human instead of some random enemy.
I try to remember that as a child America represented a very noble idea to me. It was an idea that had empathy to downtrodden and poor people, and I actually felt pride in that. I thought we were moving forward.
Please understand I want everyone to have the opportunity to live a peaceful life, and with no government, millions more than now would be exploited.
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I totally agree. Anarchists and Trumpsters seem to believe in 'the' same concept of living to a T. They just don't think we need a central force. But without that central 'skeleton' of archatypical truths (what we Westerners believe to be natural law) it would be impossible to live civily. Anarchists don't seem to realize that not everyone percieves basic rights the same as they do. They just assume all would agree and those who do not will just get shot..?...lol idk. I just can't wrap my head around it. I really do try! I just can't get there.
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I feel you. I have tried and tried to understand as well. I can kind of understand libertarian policy veiws (non-interventional is good imho, fiscally conservative is debatable, etc...), but what I always come back to is the libertarians I know generally speaking have had a comfortable life full of opportunities and abundance, and they simply do not think of the millions of people who rely on our assistance programs to stay alive.
We MUST stick together as humans, or we will fall just like Rome.
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I just don't understand why all these different anti-American groups seem to think that all their ideas & ideologies weren't already debated (in way more debth than they'll ever be able to do) back in the 1700's. All of these same old ideals of no Federal government, Socialist government, and any combination one can imagine were argued by men way more wise & deep than most today. Why the need to re-argue these same arguements 200 years later? Our system has not even failed! It's 'they' who are failing the system by not protecting it!
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Yes we need to stop the fighting. A good place to start is to stop the fighting via the violence of government. It's not some benevolent institution for the good of humanity. It's the institution that says; you can not tell your neighbour what to do, on your own. You can not force your neighbour to pay for things you want (greed) on your own. But if you give me all the power and the monopoly on force, I (government) will do it (stealing, forcing, controlling violence) for you, I will make your neighbour obey you through the thread and use of violence.
So day in day out you and your neighbour get along fine, but he has not turned around and you stab him in the back, and vice versa. (unknowingly)
This is what they told you in the government indoctrination camps (schools) since you were young.
The American ideal (philosophy) stripped from all it's nationalistic, ritualistic, socialistic and dogmatic add on's is actually a very good philosophy and is not the American ideal, but the human ideal. But you are not gonna get there by big mafia (government). It's the antithesis of living peaceful together, it's the antithesis of organizing society, it's the antithesis of empathy, love thy neighbour, getting along, and tollerance.
If you're interested, This and this book explain more in depth about what government is, and about "the American ideal".
Not saying you can't choose a ruler for yourself though or have a government to tell you what you must do, that's not up to me. But you can't choose a ruler for me.....sorry.... :)
Peace
(edited a few mistakes.)
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You seem like an insightful person, and I understand your distain for government, but you are still not getting my point. There are American citizens that are born into an extremely difficult situation where they have nothing except the government to help them. These people do not deserve this. It's not like I want them to rely on the government to stay alive, but what choice do they have?
Let's say that tomorrow, America becomes full on libertarian. A lot of these people will be totally screwed. We would be getting rid of programs that allow them to have food, cities would become chaos.
And I am not talking about "who would run the schools" or "but who would build roads?!"... I am concerned the very basic human decency and value of human life would rot away to nothing. Every man for himself is no way to live.
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If I govern myself, and you govern yourself, we have a just government.
If I govern you or you govern me, we have tyranny.
If I govern you by proxy, or vice-versa, we still have tyranny.
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If only it were that simple. There are too many who have no way to fight back against wealthy or powerful individuals. If you govern yourself, and I govern myself, and you decide to start dumping your trash in the river next to my house, what would be my choice to stop you?
You are thinking in blanket terms and assuming everyone is able to handle a situation like this. At the very base of this issue is where libertarian values fall short. Every man for himself does not give humans a better future.
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Wealthy and powerful individuals gain through political plunder rather than production, so addressing the government also addresses them.
Monopoly court systems do a terrible job of protecting property rights, whereas there are many models and practical examples of distributed dispute resolution in place right now. Remember, governments violate property rights, rather than protecting them.
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Or your rights end where my rights begin.
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That is a sound principle. Government does not abide by it though. No system of central government can.
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Exactly. No central system can. And precisely why we have our Republic. Your issue is specifically what our founders debated fervently over. In the end, every ideological concept that you can think, was lived 'and' studied rigorously 'and' debated 'and' finally agreed upon, by much wiser men than us. They did it in the most fair & equitable way possible, not according to some victim identity group who's tribe has been oppressed more who then needs retribution blahblah philosophy. THE ONLY form of government known to mankind, based upon English Common Law, that protects 'individual' freedom the most.
A population can only remain a free Republic, 'if' that citizenry steps up and protects our law. When half the population despises that Republic because of the corruption, that tells me that they no longer 'understand' the concept of America's Constitution nor their role in going backwards culturally.
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Whether you like it or not, the US Constitution established a central government. Public choice economics was not understood in the 18th century. No "republic," "democracy," "constitutional monarchy," or other form of centralized government can overcome the economic and psychological effects of power. Believe me, I wasted a LOT of time trying to figure out why the government became what it is and trying to find a way to reduce its overreach. It's not a battle we can win, so it's time to divert our time, energy, and finances elsewhere. The tools of political action are antithetical to liberty, full stop.
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You're right. The point is not to find a government that is incorruptible. There is no such thing. Our Republic is only 'the best' way that we know how to 'control' that corruption keeping us free. Our Republic did not fail. It will still provide us with 'the most' freedom 'any' government can. It is us, the people who have failed, not our system. We failed to protect our Constitution bastardizing the entire concept of our Federal powers. Look at all the people who voted for Obama! One of the most corrupt and mob-like politician out there. Because he 'cares'?..omg
You all need to stop thinking that there is a better way because there isn't. Our government is based on human nature and universal psychological truths with built in protection from the natural consequence of unbridled power. We just have to wake up and 'use' it. Like Trump is doing!
Where exactly would you suggest diverting time, energy, and finances towards?
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credit
Don't let your misconceptions about the status quo cloud your vision.
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If we wanted violent uprising it would have already happened. Our ideology is so relaxed we don't do much more than spread awareness mostly through memes because honestly it seems that's the only way Americans can retain information anymore.
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Information is the governments biggest enemy. We don't even have to get violent to dismantle them. With the internet and as many scandals as them goobers are involved in the memes write themselves and every single day more and more people start to feel like I do.
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My point exactly. What do anarchists actually DO to clean the scum out of the system so that you can then work seriously on your plan of the ultimate decentralization?
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Decentralization is doing itself.
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Well no that's not how I want to say it. Decentralization is being done every day by computer people and I only just understand the very tip of it.
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But you know what I'm saying though right? It seems to me that there are people like crowdsource and Trumpsters who are actually doing what they can to actually effect decentralization by as they say, draining the actual swamp through legal channels (courts). Seems to me that anarchists simply sit back and just watch the battle instead of hopping on board to help. It's as if you're waiting for the destruction of the Republic to where what? You guys will then run in to be the ones who takeover? I don't get the endgame. And I don't see how it's any different than the Antifa-tyoe groups or the Deep State who want to be that regime change. You know what I mean?
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A friend said to me a few weeks ago the future is going to be a battle between socialist and libertarians. A battle between those who want to control and those who wish to be left alone. I think he may be right. Legality honestly means nothing to me. Morality is more important. If my side was in the battlefield at this time I may consider joining. I think for myself not as part of any collective. Libertarians and anarchist sometimes cannot stop fighting with each other to actually do anything ( like every political party). Our Facebook groups constantly get infiltrated by commies stirring up shit( guess we deserve that as much as we publicly troll them). So for the moment as a anarchist yeah I'm going to sit back and watch it burn.
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I think most Trump supporters are basically Libertarian. Constitutional Libertarians if that's a thing. The political Party names don't mean much any more. Half the 'Independents' are disillusioned Democrats (what used to be classical Liberal) and Socialist Bernie supporters and supposed 'centrists' who think everyone should 'compromise'. Usually that compromise does not include the Constitution but rather the current majority vs minority opinion.
Anyway, what do you think will be accomplished by not being involved in making the change? What is your next move when it all comes crashing down?
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Libertarians love to tell other libertarians how they aren't real libertarians so good luck with that lol. Spreading information and pissing off liberals is my part in this fight. If I don't get blocked by a few liberals and a get a few death threats from extreme conservatives I haven't done my job. Assuming it all did come crashing down. Tough question would depend on the scenario.
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Well I'm not even sure what a Libertarian is sny more. I don't think anyone fits in these political boxes at all. Imo it comes down to pro-American Constitutionalists vs anti-American anti-Constitutionalists. Regardless of whether someone's a Socialist, Progressive (not even sure what that's supposed to be), a Postmodernist (white-prividge- retribution for past 'injustices'etc) and yes anarchists, all of you are anti-Constitutionalists and basically anti-American. Anti-American in my view does not neccessarily mean bad person. It's someone who dislikes our Reublic (what America is) and wants it 'changed'. I love you because you're my Steemit bud ...;) (I hope) [pun intended...lol]...but I'm sad that you're not helping us restore law & order.
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You become an anarchist when you become so disillusioned with government corruption that you fall into an anti-government mindset because it's easier to complain than to actually do something real to change things. It's kind of like the Socialists who decry poverty and volunteer everyone else's money to fix it. I have many relatives like that. It's like the Social Justice Warrior who kneels at the flag decrying bigotry while actually..practicing bigotry...lol The Anarchist can sit back and dream about the imaginary better World we'll have when our Republic colapses without really doing much to prove it even possible. https://steemit.com/jordan-paterson/@julzee/jordan-peterson-on-the-psychological-signifigance-of-the-biblical-stories-part-3
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I can't even comprehend no law. You say legal doesn't matter to you. That morality is what matters. Don't you see that's EXACTLY what Socialists say? They have their 'vision' of what 'their' moral World looks like and our Constitution is a barrier to forming their utopian caring government. You do the exact same thing if our current law means nothing to you. You donxt mean 'any' law, you mean 'your' law. But not all Americans believe in the same morality so how is yours any more vslid than any one else's?
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Natural law can be broken down very simply. Either you took something that didn't belong to you ( yes rape and murder fall here) or you didn't. If you did it can either be made right or it can't and you should die(rapeos and murderers should die). Now you ask who is going to enforce such rules. Well this depends. If you choose to live in a community and they decide to voluntarily fund a police force and private courts. Now if you choose to live out on a homestead away from civilization it's up to you the individual to protect yourself.
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Then ask yourself this question. Do bad people follow the law? Criminals don't fear the jury or jail so if they don't fear their victims is the law really keeping it in control or only providing the illusion of control
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Yes but not everyone has the same interpretation of natural law. A muslim believes natural law to be very different than America's version of natural law. That's 'why' we enshrined 'our' interpretation in our Constitution. Without that Constitution, (or at least a majority population who 'believes' enough in that Constitution to actually 'protect' it), who says 'your' version of natural law is the one the population would see as valid. You're assuming that your interpretation is correct. Others believe theirs to be correct. Ergo THE NEED for a central base (government) to define this. It's exactly what our system is supposed to be. THE least amount of government humanly possible to provide that base that humankind CANNOT live without. You may call your nonaggression agreement as not a government but it actually is. The only difference between your proposed government and our Republic is that our Republic is proven to work regardless of what someone feels natural law is. Our version is LAW!
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Legality is irrelevant to morality and reason, though. The entire argument for governmental legitimacy is built on a foundation of lies and myth in the first place.
Remember, legality does not define morality. Slavery was "legal," and the Underground Railroad was "illegal." Alcohol was legal, then illegal, and now legal within the scope of arbitrary regulations. None of this matters when we want to discuss right and wrong or reason versus irrationality.
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Yes but without 'legality' then who's morality are you supposed to deem legitimate? Your nonaggression agreement is worth nothing if the population does not agree to abide by it. That's the beauty of our Republic. It 'defines' a skeleton of morality which is then deemed the law. Things the Fed can't do to people. And the fact that through that system, 'using' that morality as basis, we abolished slavery? Only shows the success of our system working. Until we drain the swamp of all these Socialists & crooked Postmodern Communists our Country's morality & law,just like your agreement mean nothing.
You don't seem to get how many different perceptions there are out there of what morality is. There HAS to be one version defined as a base for all to know is expected as 'inalienable'. You start spouting yours as the correct values then you start sounding like those damn alt-Right Christians....🤔
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You're not making sense. The NAP is a measurement tool for analysis of human action. It is a universal and reciprocal principle we can use to determine whether someone is acting within his just sphere of authority, or trespassing against another's sphere of authority.
Laws are either in accord with this principle, rendering them redundant, or they are in opposition to it, rendering them criminal. I am appealing to the higher law of reason, not the arbitrary dictates of politicians who say it is a "crime" to travel at certain speeds or own certain objects or travel across imaginary government borders without permission. You need to demonstrate the authority of government, because governments operate entirely through claiming special powers not held by other individuals despite the premise that government exercises delegated authority.
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But what you don't seem to get is that's precisely what our Constitution is! The universal base of inalienable rights, with 'limits' specifically built in as to what the Fed has authority over. Then ALL OTHER authority is left to the States. Communities who decide for themselves how they want their States, cities, towns to live. The only reason we're in the basket case we're in is because politicians have been usurping State powers. We want them back! How the heck, if you can't even get people to abide by these 'rules', how are you going to get them to abide by yours? By proclamation? Our rules were already studied, debated, and agreed on over 200 years ago. You think you're going to be able to get 300M people, who all don't even agree with 'your' rules, to go along with them? How? Is there a vote? Do you just force it upon everyone? I mean, sounds to me you'd have to be pretty much a dictator to assume all should follow 'your' version of what the rules should be ya know?
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No, that is not what the Constitution is. Read some Spooner. It's not a contract, not a compact, and not a universal standard of morality. It has zero authority.
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Oh boy you seriously believe this? I don't even know what to say on that one...lol So in your mind, people who, through representatives that they vote for, create a government and then therefor after each generation follows that contract, but sine these succeeding generations were nor alive when that contract was first signed, they do not fall under that contract? So when we make a treaty with another Country, when that particular leader dies the agreement dies with him? Or does the whole population have to die first before that treaty becomes null & void?
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If I do not have the authority to govern you, and vice versa, how can either of us delegate such authority to anyone else by any process, electoral or otherwise? That is the presumption of democracy. It has no inherent virtue regardless of tradition.
Besides, there is no agent-principal relationship between the voter and the politician, so those who voted for the winner can't even claim to be represented, much less those who voted for another or did not vote at all.
I have not arrived at my views lightly. This is the result of careful consideration. It may seem as foreign to you just as it was once foreign to me, but I am persuaded it is true.
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I'm sure you have thought long and hard but the thinking is never over. It's fine to be persuaded that your ideology is true but only 'if' you constantly re'examine things when someone like me brings an issue up. Our Constitution is a skeleton of core LAW that governs 'everyone'. Sounds exactly like what you yourself propose with your nonagression agreement minus the Democracy part which spells out proceedures for governing. But in your own agreement, do you not expect 'all' to at least believe in and live by those limited core rules? If so then you're doing the same thing our Constitution does, minus the Democracy. If not then all may not agree with that agreement and you"d be 'forcing' it onto them. Bottom line, do you not have a core?
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