Capitalism means free markets, but free markets do not necessarily mean capitalism

kennyskitchen (72) in anarchy • 7 years ago (edited)

View this post on Hive: Capitalism means free markets, but free markets do not necessarily mean capitalism

7 years ago by kennyskitchen (72)

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rextyge (52) · 7 years ago

A detailed and insightful post there @kennyskitchen! Wonderfully treated.

The problem with any ideology, (cap or soc) has always been the ends.

Honestly, it's just business to them all. It's a game and the the resulting abyss is for the weaker links.

Someone once said "...It's a, fuck fest, but make sure you are always the one doing the fucking –not getting fucked".

Partly I agreed with the statement but lately I have seen that the problem with human isn't the right market or model. It's the greed and quest to simply control others for selfish gains.

Thanks again Kenny!

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2 votes

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

Wonderful insights, thanks for that!

I feel the same way, the ideologies are so often the problem, as they keep the mind in a box, and don't allow the light to shine in.

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lesliestarrohara (64) · 7 years ago (edited)

On the topic of gift economy vs. greed economy:

I can't wrap my mind around it. The current economy has greed, sure. I seriously doubt any economy could be without it, even a gift economy. (Haven't you ever seen people who are generous out of greed for adoration or social standing?) But I don't think that greed is the primary feature of capitalism, or even of the twisted state capitalism that we currently exist in.

Where anti-capitalists see greed, I see entrepreneurs and business owners who have a desire to serve people, and who do so with greater success and efficiency than almost any philanthropist. Where anti-capitalists see exploitation, I see the world's rising standards of living--faster and more exponential during the age of capitalism than in any other previous age.

And capitalism already includes gifting and generosity. Profit motive isn't the only thing operating behind the scenes in the capitalist society. The market is a blending of all human needs, desires, and aspirations. So of course you'll get some greed. But you also get innovation, generosity, beauty, and brotherhood. It's a mixed bag. I think it's not the profit motive itself which incentivizes greed and disincentivizes generosity in our present economy, but rigged systems. The profit motive is inseparable from the human condition. Everything we do is in some way to benefit ourselves, even if it also benefits others. All biological entities are the same way--it's one of the laws of nature.

The piece of the gift economy puzzle that really baffles me is that it seems as if most of the people promoting it have fear-based personal mythologies about money and profit--beliefs that are either not true, or do not represent the whole picture. Consider these portions of the quotes you included in your post:

When the qualitative is matched with the quantitative, the infinite to the finite, then the former is debased. The exchange of beauty for money, intimacy for money, attention for money — all smell of prostitution. The distaste of the artist for the world of commerce is not just an egotism that says he is above it all. When money tries to buy beauty, love, knowledge, connection, and so forth, either the buyer receives a counterfeit, or the seller, having sold the infinitely precious for a finite sum, is exploited.

The gift is transitive, other-oriented, mainly qualitative and it implies the value of the other, while exchange is ego oriented, self reflecting, quantitative and gives value to the objects exchanged and to the self.

To me, both of these quotes speak of a person who has deep-held, almost religious, feelings of sin and dirtiness and fear surrounding money and profit. This, to me, is just as incorrect and unfortunate as a person whose relationship with money is a never-ending chase after prestige and power, or even just self-worth. To put it in another perspective, these are the people who are telling us that lack is a lie and we must not live lives based in fear, and yet they think of money in a fearful, disdainful way, as if it were money itself that creates greed and all those other human qualities they don't like, and not the individual using the money. Take a closer look at this "trading the infinite for the finite is exploitative" line of thinking. It treats money--in its capacity as a tool of account--as spiritual anathema. It's a bit silly, to me. That the soul would recoil from bits of green paper or metal coins or batches of compressed data on a computer.

The problem is much less economic model, and much more cultural & social norms

I agree with this statement, but then reading through the paragraphs below it, I find myself shaking my head a bit. Let me ask you: Do you think that many the anarcho-capitalists you personally know (and I know you know a lot of us) are hoarders, people who cheapen the quality of our work, who value profit over life, or who pathologically put material gains over their own mental and emotional health? And if so, why do you even hang out with those people?

To me, yes. It's more a matter of cultural and social norms, and in the ancap movement I see the evolution of capitalist culture, and it's beautiful.

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2 votes

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graytail (34) · 7 years ago (edited)

I was trying to find some objective example of a gift economy (something I typically find idyllic and impractical), but there's one example that most can relate to - the waiter/server - the tipping economy. As I read through the original post and its comments, I was envisioning the gift economy within the greed economy, being subsidized by a third party. These are essentially the service employees. Most of them are paid by a third party but tipping transcends that.

It's worth contemplating the implications of paying through a tip vs. relying on wage-based service. While I'm fundamentally more comfortable in a greed-based economy, I prefer tipping and commission for my personal services. It's an interesting anomaly, no?

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1 vote

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

That is an interesting point. I'd look to the STEEM blockchain as well. Everyone here is creating content, putting it out there, and then just seeing how much the community gifts them for that content. It is a great example because in measurable, numerical data, it is rewarding to give, and you don't lose anything by it.

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1 vote

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bonitaoregon (38) · 7 years ago

You know, I have to admit that I don't read everything you write, but I do try to skim through it!

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mikeonfire (60) · 7 years ago

Well said! Once our mind is open to other possibilities I don't doubt even more creative and thoughtful ideas will appear. When we simply cordon ourselves into one or two ideologies... we should already know something needs some investigation. So glad you have already done the work!

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

Yes! The best ideas haven't been come up with yet, and any philosophy that comes from our past is going to be outdated unless at its core is a function to refine & recreate itself.

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juxley (53) · 7 years ago

YES YES YES YES YES YES FUCK YES FUCK YE S FUCK YES.

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zarakai (25) · 7 years ago

Thanks a lot this was very complete :)

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