Please Show Me The Perfect Anarchists (a follow up to my thoughts on @adamkokesh vs @larkenrose &amp; @kafkanarchy84)

larkenrose (70) · 7 years ago

A: "Why won't the car start?"
B: "It's out of gas."
A: "Let's work together to get it running again!"
B: "Sounds good. I'm walking to the nearest gas station to get gas."
A: "That's fine, you can do that, but I don't want to wait that long! While you do that, I will starting putting grass and twigs into the gas tank!"
B: "What? No. Don't do that. It doesn't work that way."
A: "Why are you being divisive?!"
B: "I'm not being divisive. I'm pointing out reality. What you are doing has no chance of solving the problem, and a high likelihood of making it worse."
A: "Why are you trying to tear me down?! We should work together! We just have different approaches!"
B: "Your approach has zero chance of success. None. If you want to help, you can help get some gas."
A: "It's fine if you want to do that, but I'm doing my own thing for the cause! Why would you criticize me for that?"
B: "Because your approach literally has NO chance of success. Absolutely none. Your good intentions and determination make no difference to the outcome."
A: "Can't we all just get alonnnnnngggggg? YOU must be trying to SABOTAGE this! You must secret not WANT the car to start! Why else would you be attacking me?!?!"

Good grief, people. Adam will never win. Ever. He has no chance. NONE. Not the slightest shred. His "executive order" will never happen (and wouldn't even if he were President). AGAIN, trying to get people to focus on that is 100% a waste of time and energy, and is actually counter-productive, because in the eyes of everyone else, it only REINFORCES the notion that we need a top-down authoritarian decree to set us free. If it hurts your feelz that I point that out, tough shit. Reality doesn't care about your feelz. I'm done with this lunacy. Over and out.

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truthabides (57) · 7 years ago

Larken, that's a ridiculous analogy. Where did your impeccable logic run off to on this? Does not compute, none of it. ... for me

Adam will never win? So what?! What sane person would think this is a sure thing, no one. You say Adam's campaign reinforces the notion of government authority being legitimate.

You've got a really low opinion then of everyone's intelligence. I don't believe we're that freakin' stupid.

Adam's campaign has already done good and opened eyes to the idea that we don't actually need a government. Please stop saying that it won't because that's not true. That horse is ALREADY out of the barn.

You're off on this. Please erase the slate and rethink critically what you're saying.

will all due respect and good will

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baah (61) · 7 years ago

It's not about the problem that this is impossible, it's the fact that the way you responded invalidated (somehow) your reasoning that it's impossible.

What is your bottom-up solution, because these imbeciles think that the Federal actually rules over the people and not the people over the federal?

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alexstacy (48) · 7 years ago (edited)

What if Adam's VP is Vermin Supreme? Then would it be worth it?

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finnian (58) · 7 years ago

This isn't about individuals; It's about the objective.

That objective, for me at least, is maximizing individual liberty. Is the person in question working towards that goal or not? If they appear not to be, what is the cause? Perhaps they have some greater good down the road in mind, or perhaps they do not.

Any one person's distance down the path to greater individual liberty is not what should be focused on in other words. We should be focusing on the objective, and the objective is never fully obtained. We will always have to struggle and fight to expand and defend individual liberty.

All I ask for from my friends is consistency. Their motivation for doing what they are doing should be the same as mine. Are they doing it for fame or personal enrichment, to build their reputation to gain later, or some other selfish reason? Or are they motivated by the goal of maximizing everyone's individual liberty?

As I work towards the objective too, I should repeatedly question my motivations, actions, and failures to act. I am not very good at seeing my own inconsistencies or mistakes though. My friends therefore should be helping me grow by pointing them out. They are looking at me from the outside, and they can see more clearly.

It is our duty, due to liberty being worth any price, to make sure we are looking for consistency in our friends as they work towards the objective. We as individuals do not matter much at all compared to it either. Individuals can however do a lot of damage by not being true to the cause. The sooner those people are discovered, the less damage they can do.

No one should be an exception to the process of trusting but continually verifying. Repeatedly questioning the actions of those around us isn't divisive either. It is necessary to strengthen our cause and better achieve our goals. What really concerns me is when certain people believe they should not be subject to the process.

If we really do have the same objective, neither of us will mind being evaluated, repeatedly, for consistency. We won't mind having our actions questioned, and we'll be open to correction by our friends. People who do not welcome the process make me even more curious, and I then have to ask, "Perhaps they don't actually share the same objective as me?"

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mikeonfire (60) · 7 years ago

I appreciate the opportunity to hear opinions and certainly those from my friends and prominent figures in the community and certainly the ones they feel strongly about. I've also read a speckling of the disagreements and viewed the videos.

I still believe there's room for understanding from both points of view.

I do believe Larken has the "moral high ground" but I also do believe it's within Adam's freedom to do what he feels is best from his experience and understanding. We might warn him that he may be straying from a fundamental principle and may have to deal with unforseen consequences in the future. But being that he's passionate and willing to try to do something that may help people grasp a better understanding of their situation, why should I or anyone else stand in his way? I really don't see any harm in calling out something valuable, a potential lesson to be learned, an experience to pay attention to or a task that may lead to even more understanding.

Whose to say 5 years from now Adam says to Larken... I should have paid more attention to your suggestions! Or maybe Adam does have a idea that wakes up another 10-20 million energetic people and convinces them to take the red pill. Or maybe it's both and we all learn something valuable from watching. I do believe it's important to stand on the principles we feel strongly about. But how do we actually know we're right unless someone is willing to actually put it to the test. I think that alone makes it a worthy endeavor.

I've certainly received value from all the participants in this conversation... and I'm grateful for it!

I suggest we all be patient and let people do what they feel strongly about. Sure, people may make mistakes, even big ones, but the beauty is those are the big ones are the biggest learning experiences!

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maloneyj55 (44) · 7 years ago

Do what we can now, build it for the future generation. Any act of defiance of the system that brings you more freedom is good. That being said don't be too risky about it, they love to put us in cages. Spread the message as much as you can. Once enough people realise the power they truly have and that no one has the right of authority over them, the change will happen. Let's no forget it is a make believe system, we can make a better one or not even need one at all. If Adam has his own strategy, Larken has his. I really hope they are both successful. It's about changing the way people see the world. It's a numbers game in the end and we are growing in numbers.

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

So very true; we each just keep moving the movement forward in our own ways, keeping that end goal in sight. Continue bettering ourselves, shining our light on others, and trust the Universe to unfold as it should.

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truthabides (57) · 7 years ago

Hellooo beautiful human. :) I couldn't agree more and especially so because I don't see time as being on our side, the side of freedom. Our best chance for a better future lies in our solidarity.

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attilax69 (25) · 7 years ago

Trying to lock up and define anarchy is a hazardous task, considering how many different kind of anarchisms are existing... All of them are claiming to be the real one, but truth is they all are, as the only common idea they all share is : no god and no master. No matter if you're left wing, right wing, pacifist or violent, the only common goal is to get rid of the people who are ruling, and to rule ourselves, all of us. For me, it's that simple. Rest is litterature.

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truthabides (57) · 7 years ago

Yep, which is why I hate labels with a passion. They can only divide us and fuel our egos.
These well known words below are really all we need to know. Freedom and law all rolled into one.

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

Exactly, as long as we agree on that 95% that is "no rules, no aggression, everything based on consent", the rest is just personal choice. The way I put it before was Let's Achieve Anarchy, Before We Argue About Adjectives :-)

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kafkanarchy84 (74) · 7 years ago

Yes! Kenny! That’s right. And in a recent comment you agreed Adam’s plan does not live up to this 95% agreement. So which is it!?

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

His plan, his method. He is shooting for the same world, but with a different strategy. So, I do not support the strategy (because I disagree with it).

There is a BIG difference between not supporting, and aggrandizing yourself by shouting it down as some terrible thing.

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kafkanarchy84 (74) · 7 years ago

Where does this “aggrandizing” stuff come from??? You guys are weird man.

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nexusvortex777 (50) · 7 years ago

I don't think there is such a thing as a "perfect anarchist." We can strive to be outside of the state, but it seems impossible often times when there is a disconnection from those who are unaware of valid options such as building intentional communities, and those who want to actually do something to make the world a more free place. Raising awareness is the first step in a long process.

I think Kokesh means well and is doing what he feels is right in his own mind. I don't believe in the all or nothing, black and white thinking that I see projected by others.

I don't see the likelihood of Kokesh actually becoming president, as we know the Reps and Dems have a monopoly in the White House. I see a continuation of the same worn out authoritarian figures for the upcoming elections. So the best way to address that observation would be to decline my personal vote for either party. I didn't vote last election because I learned that I can use the strategy of non-voting to show that I am not in favor of either candidate offered. I also promoted this idea largely to others who shared the same sentiment.

Kudos to all of you who are actually doing the work to help others become more knowledgeable on important issues.

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kennyskitchen (72) · 7 years ago

Absolutely, the biggest issue we are facing have nothing to do with not enough people knowing about the problems or not enough people wanting to change things, but the fact that not enough people know that there are so many options to change it, and that they are so capable of doing so.

I also don't vote, and have no interest in political approaches myself, and focus my energy on connecting, building, and empowering the alternatives to the old paradigm. Helping to convince others not to participate is a great method!

Thank you for your thoughtful, clear comment, I greatly appreciate it!

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nexusvortex777 (50) · 7 years ago

Right on, Kenny! We should remain focused on solutions as I've noticed so many doing over the past few years. Start locally and encourage others to spread the message of voluntaryism. I made it known to many that I didn't see voting as the answer and I will remain firmly behind that principle in the oncoming years. I choose to consciously NOT participate although I could; just as yourself I do not see working within the beast system to change it as valuable as I do focusing on other means to defeat the system.

Glad to have found your profile on here as I'm looking forward to reading more from you!

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flauwy (73) · 7 years ago

I think you have a great point here, Kenny. As little as I believe that Adam will be elected as much I do believe that he can make a huge difference. Just by campaigning alone he will draw plenty of attention to the idea of voluntaryism and a wider view for the world. This is exactly what we need to wake up more people. The USA is devided more than ever and people are eager to listen to better concepts. Adam can initate a mass movement that will bring people to question the system and take the power back into their own hands by using crypto and generally not participate in the system anymore. And then you have what Larken hopes to achieve by growing and empowering people and bring down the system without playing its game.

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marcus.pulis (61) · 7 years ago

Very well put my friend, as someone who was awakened by Ron Paul and dove deeper. I think that my experience is an example of what you are talking about. I am sure that I am not the perfect anarchist either but I still see the bright stateless society on the horizon. The history books will show that Adam and our campaign was the next evolutionary step on the road to freedom. If we are wrong then at least it will not be said that all we did was scream at the wall. My own activism is made more effective by my involvement with the campaign. That direct action of talking and sharing as opposed to arguing and fighting. This message should be delivered with LOVE and compassion.

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kafkanarchy84 (74) · 7 years ago

If we are wrong then at least it will not be said that all we did was scream at the wall

Is it your view that those not involved in politics are only “screaming at the wall”?

This message should be delivered with LOVE and compassion.

You may have to help a couple folks with this. Some don’t get it.

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marcus.pulis (61) · 7 years ago

No, it is my view that some people do not take any action and sit in judgment of others who are trying either by Adam's method or some other action. If all you do is talk than I am certainly talking to you if you take a different action than it does not apply. Actions speak louder than words. As I have said to you in a previous comment, I disagree with Rand or others who are attempting to move us towards liberty from the GOP, but I can applaud the effort. I think that the difference between you and myself is that I am not an absolutist. I will appreciate whatever inch we take towards a stateless society. You want all or nothing. If you can help us jump to the top of the stairs I will applaud you. I will take one step at a time if I need to. Adam might not jump to the top but he certainly is taking several steps. I will not only applaud him but am doing everything I can to help others along the way. I would rather light a candle rather than curse the darkness.

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kafkanarchy84 (74) · 7 years ago

Where did I say I want “all or nothing”? Where are you guys getting these weird ideas. Most Voluntaryists, including myself, are happy with smaller steps as long as they don’t violate anyone. It would help your case to stop misrepresenting those who take exception with your particular approach.

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marcus.pulis (61) · 7 years ago

Ok again what approach would you take?

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kafkanarchy84 (74) · 7 years ago

One that doesn’t violate individual self-ownership by design. Am open to all sorts. The same that all sorts of principles anarchists are already engaged in. Already creating the new paradigm. Not waiting for illegitimate, violence-based mechanisms such as federal elections to change things.

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marcus.pulis (61) · 7 years ago

While you are waiting, we'll be doing.

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kafkanarchy84 (74) · 7 years ago (edited)

I just said I am not waiting. Have you looked around Steemit recently and seen what is happening? Is this a joke?

Nobody is stopping you. Politic on. This sophomoric inanity about those not involved in politics being “utopians” doing nothing is so bizarre and ridiculous it really leaves little left to be said.

It’s funny that those of us attempting to reach the same goals as you lot ostensibly are, are labeled “divisive” while these are the kind of amoeba-level dialogues and knee-jerk, middle school caliber responses we are greeted with.

Why fight those you say are working for the same goals, Marcus?

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Show 4 more replies

fishyculture (60) · 7 years ago

I was very willing to "play along" with Adam, but then I saw a side of him and his campaign that was scary... aggressive, bullying, lying... So I guess this is my saying "Sorry Larken, you were right." You really dare not play games with self-governance, even when you think someone is an NAP adherent, they still are not qualified to run anyone's life but their own.

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funbobby51 (59) · 7 years ago

My inability to support Adam comes from his apparent inability to run his own life.

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fishyculture (60) · 7 years ago

Have you seen Jordan Peterson talking about the kids who want the older people to just step aside and let them handle gun control? It is hilarious... Because, you know, last week they were eating Tide Pods, this week they should run the world... There is a touch of that it seems, doesn't it?

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funbobby51 (59) · 7 years ago

I did see that, 26 to be in charge of you own boo boos but 4 to choose a gender for life and 17 to throw away rights you have never exercised.

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truthabides (57) · 7 years ago

I support what Adam is trying to do which is let us all run our own life.

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funbobby51 (59) · 7 years ago

Seems like he wants to be a dictator.

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truthabides (57) · 7 years ago

Where did you get that idea?

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funbobby51 (59) · 7 years ago

his desire to issue illegal executive orders and redistribute property.

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truthabides (57) · 7 years ago (edited)

Illegal executive orders?

Redistributing property? This is in the bankruptcy process and Adam has already said he's open to advice to make it or keep it in line with individual rights. Nothing is written in stone in a never done before process like he's talking about.

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funbobby51 (59) · 7 years ago

oh, he is open to advice, what a benevolent dictator.

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minnowsupport (70) · 7 years ago

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funbobby51 (59) · 7 years ago

"at least for the likelihood of winning, there really isn't any way for us to know for certain."
The exact likelihood is impossible to calculate but clearly it is a number close to zero.

The problem is the purists are living in a fantasy world that does not exist. I was calling for people to call the VT governor to tell him to not sign a gun control law. One guy wanted to start blathering about how the state is illegitimate blah blah blah, that may or may not be so but the state is there and this law is real even if you think it is not legitimate. So we have a real opportunity to stand up against infringements and loss of liberty and this guy would rather have a meaningless philosophical discussion instead of doing something about it. And he was unable to understand why I didn't care about his philosophy.

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kafkanarchy84 (74) · 7 years ago

Saying an apple is not an orange is not being an apple “purist.”

There are so many “purists” doing so much more right now than plugging their own articles on other prominent articles.

Maybe they have something to say. Who was the guy?

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funbobby51 (59) · 7 years ago

Saying an apple is not an orange is not being an apple “purist.”

There are a lot of very different varieties of apples though and they taste and look totally different, yet they are all apples. Me personally I abhor Red Delicious, Empire and Granny Smith apples but I can't get enough Gala apples. I am sure I didn't say anything about apples or oranges so I am not sure where that comes from.

There are so many “purists” doing so much more right now than plugging their own articles on other prominent articles.

My point exactly, although this guy was just plugging his own article, those purists should be doing both. They are missing out otherwise.

Maybe they have something to say. Who was the guy?

you would know had you followed my "plug". He had something to say but not anything that I was that interested in.

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kafkanarchy84 (74) · 7 years ago

The “very different apples” are still apples.

The Kokesh plan is, by definition, not a voluntaryist one.

If we wish to throw definitions and meaning out the window the hey, yeah, anything goes.

That’s the difference.

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