Not Kokesh for "Not President" (Part 2 of 2)

in anarchy •  7 years ago  (edited)

In Part 1 (https://steemit.com/anarchy/@larkenrose/not-kokesh-for-not-president-part-1-of-2), I explained why Adam Kokesh’s presidential campaign is both tactically and philosophically counter-productive. But other things came up in our debate (posted below this article) that should be even more concerning to the well-intentioned but misguided people still supporting his campaign.

For starters, Adam has a habit of referring to any substantive disagreements with him, or criticism of his campaign, as “trash-talking” and “attacking” him, or as “tearing people down.” This is a classic politician (and narcissist) tactic: demonize the messenger in order to avoid having to respond to the message. Anything other than fawning, sycophantic adoration, Adam will depict as an unfair “attack” on him. Ironically, while in public he touts the virtues of “non-violent communication,” Adam is quick to get emotional and personally hostile towards anyone who disagrees with him or criticizes what he is doing. For example, in our debate he used the words, “when you attacked me when I was in jail,” to refer to me taking issue with his campaign admitting to taking donations to bail Adam out of prison, and diverting them to the (statist) Libertarian Party instead. Here was my actual post:

https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7/posts/2051231381823326

In response to that post, in an interview from jail—in a video he has apparently since removed from his YouTube channel—Adam had a strange, emotional tantrum at me, calling me “cowardly little Larken,” and basically implying that the “movement” should shun me, while saying exactly nothing about the issue of bail donations. As toxic narcissists often do, Adam plays the part of friendly, helpful, supportive guy, just as long as others are feeding his ego and his agenda. But when someone doesn’t, the mask comes off, and the hostility and overt malice shows up. Oddly, the narcissist will often then quickly go back into fake “nice guy” mode, as if nothing happened. (Plenty of people who know Adam personally know exactly what I am talking about.)

Such behaviors and tactics are quite common among politicians. When asked a question that he can’t answer, Adam goes into dodge-and-evade mode, getting emotional and then impugning the motives of whoever asked the question. As another example, during the debate, after I read things straight from his own campaign web site, word for word, he would say things like, “So many misrepresentations in there, I don’t know where to start,” and “I’m really disappointed, because you’re misrepresenting so much,” but then he did exactly nothing to refute what I quoted from, and gave a grand total of zero examples of me misrepresenting anything. This is the old propaganda tactic of finding different ways to say, or to imply, “My opponent is a liar!” without having to provide a shred of substance to back up that accusation.

Along the same lines, after referring to “some people who would tear down other activists” and would “attack other people who are doing good work” (which is how he characterizes anyone who doesn’t blindly rally behind his misguided campaign), Adam explained what “cointelpro” is, and said that if he were cointelpro, he would “want to support those people who tear down other activists” and “those who cause discord and division” as opposed to “those who are cooperative and supporting other people.” This was a not-so-veiled attempt to imply that either I, or the people who support me, must be cointelpro. Why? Because we don’t mindlessly cheer for Adam’s hypocritical and pointless political agenda.

As plenty of other people have already mentioned, Adam has slid right into the role of politician, complete with suit and tie, calculated cadence of speech, even the cliche mannerisms and gestures.

Running for office, and begging for votes, necessarily makes almost anyone into an unprincipled attention whore, toning down any actual ideas which might bother anyone, and instead focusing on forming alliances and agreements, trying to get support—financial and otherwise—including from people and organizations who aren’t even on the same page. Adam openly brags about being a lifetime member of the statist (and misnamed) Libertarian Party, while praising a number of openly statist candidates (including Austin Peterson and Gary Johnson). He also spent a chunk of our debate talking about the process of becoming a party delegate for the Libertarian Party, and how to play political games to try to get votes and influence within the system.

The moment you care more about saying things that will win over a voter, instead of saying whatever you believe is true regardless of what anyone else will think, you are no longer being sincere. Like almost everyone who has ever sought a position of power, Adam’s message has morphed into a jumbled, ever-changing mess, as he tries to say and do whatever he thinks will get him attention, money and votes. For example, anarchists obviously don’t want a President, so he started saying he was running for “not President.” Aside from being nonsensical gibberish (he already is not President, so I guess he won), it directly and obviously contradicts everything about his “Kokesh for President” campaign.

When I directly asked him if he really expected to be elected President, he did a tap-dance, by responding with, “I’m actually going to be elected custodian of the federal government, as it says on the website, because the first thing I’m going to do is resign.” Of course, there is no such office, and no election for such an office. His response was simply a way to distract people from the actual question.

If he had said, “Of course I won’t win, but I will use the attention of the campaign to teach people about the principles of voluntaryism,” I would have far more respect for him. If he had a shred of honesty, he would admit that he has exactly no chance of being elected President. But if he said that, fewer people might give him campaign contributions, so he pretends that he thinks he can win, and openly repeats that lie to his supporters. (The only other alternative is that he is actually delusional enough to think that he will win, which I do not for a moment believe.)

Once someone’s focus is more about politics and elections, than about principles, his words and actions make less and less sense. Everything becomes posturing, spinning, and trying to look good, because when you need votes, you will sacrifice almost anything for popularity and support. And that is when honesty is out the window.

When, for example, during the debate, I pointed out that Executive Orders can’t be used to dissolve the “government,” he got emotional, and compared that to someone telling the American colonists, “You guys can’t just declare independence!” Of course, the colonists weren’t asking for an official decree from their rulers, giving them permission to be free. Quite the opposite.

Adam didn’t even try to have an argument for why his magical “Executive Order” could do the impossible; he mostly just sidestepped the issue, implying that somehow such an Executive Order would magically work because the people would want it to work. He can’t afford to admit the obvious hypocrisy and dishonesty of his stated agenda, and the fact that there is absolutely no chance of his plan working. Instead, he keeps begging people to donate their time, energy and money to something that he knows will never, ever happen. So it’s not surprising that, during the course of the debate, his position got more and more unstable, until I couldn’t tell which side he was arguing. Whether he was just unclear in his own head, or determined to stay on both sides of the proverbial fence, his message got downright nonsensical. For example, he said this:

When the American people decide, decisively, irrefutably, through the American electoral process, that we don’t need a President, we don’t need a federal government, no asshole in a suit in Washington, DC, no congressman, no senator, no supreme court justice is going to stand in our way.

Except for the phrase about “through the American electoral process,” he was making my point for me, while demolishing his own. But he still was clinging to the schizophrenic notion that the way for the people to show that they don’t need a master … is for them to vote for Adam Kokesh. Then, even more bizarrely, he made my point yet again, even more precisely, saying this:

So it really doesn’t matter at that point who I am, and what the plan is even, because at that point the American people will have asserted, clearly, irrefutably, that the federal government should have no authority whatsoever, and they will withdraw any material support necessary to get rid of that institution.

I completely agree. What matters is whether people believe they need rulers. When they figure out that they don’t need rulers, Adam, his campaign and his “plan” will be utterly irrelevant and unnecessary. (It was nice, albeit weird, for Adam to admit that.)

His weird contradiction showed up yet again, when he said that, “The first thing I’m going to do is destroy the throne itself.” When I pointed out that “The President has no such power,” he responded with, “The American people do.” So which is it? Salvation via Executive Order from Supreme Custodian Kokesh? Or freedom by way of the people giving up their belief in political “authority”? I obviously advocate the latter. Adam doesn’t seem clear about which one he advocates at any given moment.

When I kept pointing out that an Executive Order is an authoritarian, statist decree, and that pushing a political/legislative agenda is not the answer, he insisted, “It’s not a legislative agenda,” “I’m not trying to legislate anything,” and that his agenda is “declaring the federal government of no authority” … by way of an official presidential Executive Order. Either he doesn’t notice the massive contradiction there, or he is hoping no one else will notice. (Previously he made a similar schizophrenic statement, declaring that “Voting equals empowerment … because it gives you one more way to tell the government to fuck off.”)

His schizophrenia went on and on in the debate, with him talking about “trying to localize government” via politics, in order to have smaller areas, each with a “voluntary government” (his term), and advocating “a practical way out of statism” by way of voting and politics. Meanwhile, he insists that his presidential campaign and his plan “is absolutely not about [himself],” and insists that he is “inseparable from the message of freedom.” And then, once again, not seeming to know which side he was arguing, he vehemently proclaimed that “No amount of voting, no amount of participation in the political process can make an institution based on coercion legitimate.” Meanwhile, he wants everyone to vote for him, so he can use his presidential power to issue an Executive Order to end the federal “government.”

Amazingly, during the debate Adam insisted that “the most important part” of his campaign is “waking people up,” and in his closing, he talked as if the campaign is all about the message of liberty. But it’s not. At all. (If it was, I wouldn’t object to it so strongly.) Feel free to go look up his campaign web site for yourself (www.kokeshforpresident.com), and see if it is about principles, or if it is about Adam and his master plan. If you still aren’t sure, Adam was nice enough (in a video made after our debate) to come right out and say this: “If we want to see that voluntary society achieved in our lifetimes, we have to put down the ideology in a sense. At least make sure that it is secondary, compared to taking this great step forward for humanity, together.” So there you have it. Hell with principles, let’s play politics.

As a final strange irony, the debate ended with Adam once again making the universally recognized gesture symbolizing subservience and obedience to “authority”: a military salute.

IN CONCLUSION

The only way I see to explain the massive mess of confusion and contradictions in Adam’s campaign and “message” is that he is determined to play the role of a hero/savior, where he wins the attention, glory, praise and admiration of everyone by saving the day. But that’s difficult, if not impossible, to accomplish while adhering to actual voluntaryist principles. So the best he can muster is to try to become a ruler (without really being a ruler, according to him) in order to use political authority and power (which he says isn’t really authority and power) to implement a legal/legislative plan (which he says isn’t really a legal/legislative plan) in order to grant the rabble their freedom (which he says won’t really be granting them anything). The two main problems with this ego-driven, “Put-me-on-the-throne-and-I-will-free-you!” approach are:

1 - In the real world, it has absolutely no chance of success. None. His inherently bogus “Executive Order” plan—which would utterly fail anyway—won’t ever see the light of day because he won’t ever get elected. And wishful thinking and believing really, really hard won't change that.

2 - As far as spreading the message of liberty, all his campaign does (in its present form, anyway) is spread a self-contradictory, schizophrenic “message” that will confuse and repel almost everyone, while mangling and perverting the concepts of anarchism, voluntaryism and libertarianism into an incomprehensible, unprincipled pile of political bullshit.

Given what a challenge it already is “un-demonizing” the concept of anarchism and voluntaryism, it doesn’t exactly help to have those terms linked to a “cult of personality” narcissistic egomaniac and his attempt to become President. You know that the media and the establishment would just love one more way to do “guilt by association,” trying to malign a message by pointing out the shortcomings in the messenger who claims to be the leading spokesman of that message. And Adam would make a very easy target for that demonization campaign.

But aside from what anyone thinks of Adam personally, if anyone is still waiting for some elected official, some legislation, some executive order, to give them permission to be free, then they still don’t even understand what freedom is. You can’t fix the root of the problem—the belief in “government” and “authority”—by way of any “political solution.” Ever. Playing the bogus game of “democracy” only serves to legitimize the game, and trying to add our own clown to the ridiculous circus of “politics” only strengthens and reinforces the statist assumptions and authoritarian mythology that most Americans still believe in. Running for office, begging for votes, playing politics—it all implies validity to the magical powers of democracy and constitutions, and the insane belief in the Divine Right of Politicians. And that is the exact and precise opposite of what needs to happen to change the mindset of the people, in order to achieve a truly free society.

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There is an absolutely easy fix that he can make to his campaign if he doesn't want to receive or try to defend from the criticism he is taking now. DROP the voluntarism portion and don't dare use the word anarchist in this campaign. Register as a libertarian party or republican candidate and just like magic his policy will match the correct entity he is campaigning as. It will also prevent him from damaging the true freedom movement of voluntarism by not confusing people.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Yes, Larken, he is going to use all of the gestures and the tactics that many of us despise. I cringe a little every time I see them. But he is not trying to convince people like me and you, is he? This is the only language that a lot people understand. And yes, it takes a somewhat self centered egotistical person to do this. But, I still don't see that what he is doing as being more damaging to the freedom movement than not doing it.

In my opinion, the damage that Adam is causing is that in effect he is saying that principles don't matter. I believe that in regards to liberty, principles are just about all that matter.

I understand the damage, but are you also saying that what he is doing does more damage than good?

I don't understand how any good can come from it.

One example of good is to make more people aware of an alternative to the duopoly and give them another choice at the ballot. Not to make a difference at the ballot but rather make them a difference in their thinking and their lives. If that's all that it accomplishes than that's a good thing right?

I'm not convinced. I believe that it will accomplish just the opposite. Any statist that takes the time to actually listen to Adam would, again, in my opinion, come away with the impression that he, and all anarchists are unprincipled, unrealistic nut jobs.
The last time I voted in 2008. I knew that Dr. Paul couldn't win. But I voted for him anyway. Simply because I was convinced that he was principled and honest. I wanted to be able to say that I voted my conscience. Since then I have been convinced of the futility of the entire process.
The fact that Adam, (and apparently many other anarchists as well), aren't yet convinced of that simple fact is discouraging to me.

Some thoughts.

Mr. Kokesh could.....just move on.

No one is forbidding him anything...but no one needs to give approval and support either.
He does not need approval from anyone. (Or everyone that is an voluntaryist.)
And waiting for that to happen is not gonna help. Throw a sort of tantrum, in a kind of sophisticated way, is not gonna make people, do what he wants them to do, or make people give him approval or support...that don't want to give him approval and support.

That's life, grow up, take responsibility for you own choices...or not..... and move on.

( Edit; the last sentence is not addressed personally to you of course)

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

I like your flexibility .. Self centered, egotistical, narcissistic is a serious cause of problems. I remind myself, this does not define who a person really is, these are attributes we may have at times. If someone is out working on these and making progress it is good to notice and encourage. If they are not ready they may need more suffering. We have to heal or much damage comes from it.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

It could be a multi step process to fix.

We all are! Lol

Larken -
With respect: I've read your books and while the fiction was fun, I found it to be shallow. But yeah, fun and I loved the message. The Most Dangerous Superstition rocked and I want the entire Universe to read it. I also love and have massively promoted your animations!

I'm glad you care enough to speak out. I watched the debate between you and Adam. To me it seemed like one person was self controlled and gracious while the other was doing a bunch of name calling and missing the point. I'm glad for your idealism and passion, Larken.

I only wish - hope - you experience something in your life that clicks for you in a way where your vision is less limited to binary thinking. Otherwise known as "black & white thinking," otherwise known as "splitting" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology). If you read about it, you may notice it describes you.

I'm a fan of embracing/accepting both the negative and the positive, so I'm not really disappointed in you for taking the negative stance here and wanting to point out something you see as destructive to a movement you believe strongly in. Where I'm disappointed is that you are promoting division while he is promoting unity. He is ADAPTING to their language, so that his message will spread further. I understand how adapting can overlap with and/or seem like a lapse in integrity. In this case I don't think it is. I'm not biased here, either. I've had beefs with Adam before and we've worked close together before. Overall, though, my experience of him is that he believes in the cause and - much more importantly - his ACTIONS are in line with what he says.

Something Milton Friedman said once comes to mind. It was something like how to him, being a libertarian meant being humble; showing humility. He explained that one example of that is the idea that we don't know what is best for others, so we definitely don't try to change them. You seem to be coming from a place of thinking you know what is best in terms of how to best shift people from Statism to Voluntaryism. I can certainly be wrong about what you think. It's your words and manner that come across this way, like you know it all and people doing it any other way are just wrong.

It's a very much black & white way of viewing the world. You either trust or not trust. You are either right or wrong. You are either an honest person or a liar (really? So if you lied once in your life, you are forever a liar? Or is it twice? You tell me, Larken). There is no middle ground for you, is there? This is extremely limiting. I wrote an article on that topic here: https://steemit.com/life/@scottermonkey/is-it-better-to-see-trust-as-black-and-white-or-spectrum

I think Jeff Berwick nailed it in the debate when he mentioned a "multi-pronged approach." I hear you that you worry that by using the aparatus of the State to try to dissolve the State is not an easy thing. MAYBE not even possible. But why not try? And are you going to continue to discount the number of people who will be transformed by hearing Adam's message as he campaigns? You make weak distinctions between Adam and Ron Paul - seemingly in order to tiptoe around offending the gazillions of us who respect and value what Ron Paul did for the liberty movement. But I don't hear anything solid enough from you on that. Speaking of solid, when you talk about voting "legitimizing" the State, I get the concept and how it could be a thing, but really? When that voting is for a 3rd party, it sends a message. We could debate about how powerful that message is, but it DOES exist and I think it more than makes up for this "legitimizing" you imagine is going on. But I'm betting what I'm saying here makes little sense to you, filtered through your lack of skill / ability to process information in a way that allows for "middle grounds" or "shades of gray". Unless we have a cataclysm, apocalypse, violent revolution, or some other massively fucked up or unrealistic event, there won't and can't be a sudden 100% switch from statism to Voluntaryism.

Now with regard to your general critique of all Libertarians (I use the big L to denote minarchists), why not choose to see them as allies FOR NOW? If you can for a moment try to see a path where we can move from 100% statism down to 80% down to 60% and so on (requires breaking through your black & white filters), then why not work together with Libertarians until gov becomes the 20% (or whatever) they want. And if we all worked together all the way to that point, can you imagine (a) during that journey, how many of those Libertarians will convert along the way to full on Voluntaryist? And once we get to that 20% gov, how many people will see just how effective the private sector has been at handling all the services they used to think were needing to be under gov pervue?

Do you have the capability/desire to see how 20% gov is better than 40% gov? Or does your mind go straight to, "No! Only 0% is right and good. 1% is like having 1% cancer and thus, not good and not acceptable!" By the way, I've heard you say something like that before and I'm wondering if you have evolved away from at least that position yet?

Finally, it takes a manipulator to recognize one. Like all of us, you have that in you. Maybe if you pull the stick out of your ass, you will be able to relax enough and have a hole big enough to look inside of yourself and do some of the work necessary to start seeing the wider spectrum of what is going on.

(As I commented under your separate article about this...)

If someone came along and said he was going to free the world by wearing a huge purple top hat and doing a silly dance, and I said, "That will never work," would you complain about my binary thinking, and say I was being negative and divisive? After all, why not try wearing a purple top hat and wearing a silly dance? A number of your questions also imply that I oppose a huge increase in freedom, if it isn't complete. That has exactly nothing to do with this debate. Adam won't win. He will get 0% of his agenda accomplished. Reality is reality. If something can't work, then it can't work. You can call that "binary thinking," or "negativity," or being "divisive" all you want. Reality isn't going to change.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

It's not about winning or whether or not his plan will work. But instead will it turn more people to the freedom movement. Will it do more harm than good? You seem to indicate that it will do more harm. I at the moment disagree. I'd like to know if I am wrong in my thinking.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Okay that last paragraph is a bit too much and I mean for both in a bad and funny way. You wrote down what I would've like to say but spared me.
After thinking about this for a bit, to me it comes down to this one anal (pun intended) point (or question) that I would like to get from Larken.
Is whatever energy that Adam and his supporters are spending on a net positive or a net negative for whatever end result Larken sees as an ideal anarchist society. I consider myself very open minded and you Larken have changed my opinion on a lot issues.
If you can convince me I can convince others.
But you still have not convinced me on this net + or net - issue.

Well done for sticking to principle Larken. I appreciate the way you're cutting through the petit politicing. That's what we should be 'voting' for. With our own minds, not the demonstrably flawed Statist constructs. Leading by the example that others learn to think and act for themselves and that doesn't mean you have to be 'perfect' at every turn.

"For example, in our debate he used the words, “when you attacked me when I was in jail,” to refer to me taking issue with his campaign admitting to taking donations to bail Adam out of prison, and diverting them to the (statist) Libertarian Party instead. Here was my actual post:">

If people wanted to donate to the Libertarian Party, they would've sent their money directly there. I can think of no way to make that come out right, it was wrong, it was a mistake. It doesn't make him the devil.

You know, I could make a strong defense of the logic of a completely opposite perspective as far as most of the rest of your post goes.

Right now I'm asking myself if I even should.

off topic: Does good will have any part in Anarchy?

I didn't say it made him the devil. I even pointed out that I didn't know who in his campaign made the decision to do that. The point is, when I pointed out something that YOU just agreed was wrong, Adam characterized that as me "attacking" him, and trying to "tear him down," and then he had an emotional tantrum at me personally--while saying NOTHING about the actual isse. The fact that that is how he responds to substantive disagreements and criticisms should raise a red flag.

Not the first time donated funds were misappropriated by Adam and crew. They seem to still be following the same playbook.

http://shieldmutual.com/2013/09/adam-kokesh-longer-customer/

Does this shed any light?

Hahah. That was pretty funny. Doubly so when you consider the price of BTC now. :)

The above video is not about Shield Mutual. Everybody should read the testimonyof the owner of the business.

Yea, this seems to be a different dispute.

Above link is by @georgedonnelly

It does but it's not cause to leap to conclusions either. People say all kinds of things in the heat of the moment unless they're Gandhi. It's how that money was handled that's a bigger issue. Speaking of Gandhi, one of my favorite all time quotes here:

GandhiPicturewithquote.jpg

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Guess what Larken? Anyone who felt that the money they donated went to the wrong cause can deal with that issue directly with Adam. Man to man (or woman). They were not forced to donate. So what business was it of yours to even bring it up other than free speech? Just nit picky in my opion, I know, I've been there.

So I shouldn't point out sketchy behavior unless I'm the victim? Interesting "standard." Hey, if one of your neighbors is beating the crap out of his wife, "what business is it of yours?" You seem to be fishing for reasons to make excuses for Adam, and the excuses are getting weaker and weaker.

"neighbors is beating the crap out of his wife" is not the same and you know it. I understand your point, and my point is it's no big deal really. If someone felt cheated they can do some thing about it. Really not a big to do and so I'm not worried about it. Barely worth mentioning really. To me that what looks like fishing for something.

It's not a big deal to ask for donations for a specific goal but only to then have that money used for something completely different? Are you being serious?

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

First of all Adam did not ask for money to bail himself out. Maybe some on his staff did, but not sure. The way I saw it unsolicited money came in to support Adam and to bail him out. He refused to give in to the "bribe" from the cartel and out of principle decided to stay. And asked to divert the money to a cause that he believed in instead, the LP party. From what I understand, some one may correct me if I am wrong, but, I believe he never solicited the generous donations he was receiving. So those that gave unsolicited donation I am not too worried about them haven being stiffed by Adam not keeping a promise. Again, I could be wrong on the solicitation.

That's an interesting point I've been considering as well. When we go out of our way to say "A victim was created, a victim was created!" and the people actually involved are like, "Huh? What are you talking about?" then it sounds like a regressive left tactic misguided progressives use.

Who donated that money? Do they feel cheated?

I didn't donate anything, so I'm not personally involved.

If someone who had directly lost money or been defrauded was seeking help from their community to get it resolved, then by all means we should all help. I also think it makes sense to say, "Hey, guys, did you all see what happened there? That was kind of weird, huh?" That, to me, makes a lot more sense then personal attacks in either direction.

Ben Farmer explains in this video that the donation to the LP did NOT come from the funds sent for Adam's defense.

Yeah, after he said this:

“We definitely raised enough money to get him out of jail today, and then at some point in the night, the decision was made, no lets donate that money that we raised to the LP, and lets stay on the DA and get them to drop the bond to zero.” - Ben Farmer

Yep. And then Kokesh stated here on Steemit that no bail was paid anyway. Zero. Even though the whole fundraisig campaign was advertised as “GET ADAM OUT OF JAIL.”

There is so much here that once you follow one thread the whole picture of the “integrity” of this presidential misadventure begins to unravel quickly.

Kokesh/the Kokesh team

  1. Hyped the arrest based on misleading info (it’s highly doubtful he was targeted because he announced he was running for president here on Steemit)
  2. Claimed to not know the charges for days while everyone else just called the jail/looked them up
  3. Secured thousands in donations through these methods explicitly to “get Adam out of jail,” and then didn’t use any of those funds for bail.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@kafkanarchy84/smashing-through-the-bullshit-an-in-depth-investigative-look-at-kokesh2020-campaign

"The fact that that is how he responds to substantive disagreements and criticisms should raise a red flag." I would say this sentence describes you Larkin as much as it describes Adam

I have to correct something in my reply to Larken regarding the donation to the Libertarian Party. I should've looked for an explanation before I spoke. My apologies. Ben Farmer explains in this video that the donation to the LP did NOT come from the funds sent for Adam's defense.

Yeah, after he said THIS:

“We definitely raised enough money to get him out of jail today, and then at some point in the night, the decision was made, no lets donate that money that we raised to the LP, and lets stay on the DA and get them to drop the bond to zero.” - Ben Farmer

They didn’t use any of the funds they raised for bail, for bail. This “explanation” is BS.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@kafkanarchy84/smashing-through-the-bullshit-an-in-depth-investigative-look-at-kokesh2020-campaign

Kooo...kesssh...Kooo...kesssh...
...I want you to come to the dark side...
Kooo...kesssh...Kooo...kesssh

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

My family and friends drove me to watch this!! I see this as very reliant here and one of the primary factors driving communication (or lack of).. Upon re-watching just now, I am now realizing I adopted something she said. I am now thinking and living in terms of infinite abundance.

It literally took infinity to satisfy me. Hey, there are no more complaints about me on this (at least not recently). Now I have energy to share with everyone. I'll always be watchful of this and ready to re-apply the solution.

So what do you think about the relationship in this video? How might it apply to this post?

Good video. As it happens, my Anarchapulco talk this year was about all the parallels between "government" and toxic narcissists, and how, in both cases, RECOGNIZING the problem, and the ways to deal with it, are very similar.

I was going to leave a reply here, but it turned into a ridiculously long post instead. I hope it adds some value to the discussion.

"Adam is quick to get emotional and personally hostile towards anyone who disagrees with him or criticizes what he is doing. For example, in our debate he used the words, “when you attacked me when I was in jail,” to refer to me taking issue with his campaign admitting to taking donations to bail Adam out of prison, and diverting them to the (statist) Libertarian Party instead.">

Larken, what's your evidence to prove that claim because according to Ben Farmer, separate funds were used to donate to the LP and the bail funds were not used. tia

“We definitely raised enough money to get him out of jail today, and then at some point in the night, the decision was made, no lets donate that money that we raised to the LP, and lets stay on the DA and get them to drop the bond to zero.” - Ben Farmer

That's what he said, publicly, BEFORE totally changing the story.

That was the idea according to Ben Farmer's video to dangle the money in front of the "authorities" and then pull it back, like a screw you, you're not going to get this money. He stated the money to the LP came from separate funds and what was said was to screw with the state.

How hard are you going to try to deny the fact that at least one of Ben's statements was PATENTLY FALSE? I made my post on Facebook based on HIS WORDS. The fact that he later completely changed his story doesn't retroactively make my post unjustified; it just makes him dishonest.

The only thing I'm trying to do is find out the truth. I'm not denying anything. You didn't address my point though that the first story was to screw with the state. I'm not saying lying is ok but your contention that bail money was diverted to the LP is still in question here with Farmer's 2nd statement.

That is not proof, it's conjecture.

another question: Why do you never acknowledge the righteousness of the goal of Adam's campaign to end he fed gov? Ending the gov oppression is about as righteous as it gets. I noticed that in the debate and thought it odd not to acknowledge that.

None of the thousands raised explicitly to “GET ADAM OUT OF JAIL” were used for bail. Zero. Kokesh himself admits it. See post below.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@kafkanarchy84/smashing-through-the-bullshit-an-in-depth-investigative-look-at-kokesh2020-campaign

Asking him about this, would be a good question if he shows up for the debate.
"Please let us know what you used the money for, and how it was ethically/morally used according to your principles."

It is possible he will have a positive answer.

So, ask him about it directly in the debate. If he has a good explanation, you're bearing false witness. Right now, it's not just Adam's reputation that's on the line.

Honestly, I wouldn't have given any of this a moment's credence if not for who was making the accusations, Larken Rose. I couldn't simply dismiss his words.

After Larken and Adam debated, I was not convinced about much of anything.

I don't give a fuck if you only give a "moment's credence" to "big names" man. No skin off my nose.

That wasn't intended to be a slight on you, I don't know you. But with all the stuff you and Larken have said, I expect you to be able to back it up in the debate. That does not seem unreasonable.

btw, didn't think you could talk to me because I don't like to be labeled. - everybody must be labeled or you won't be able to tell an anarchist from a statist. that was bogus from the get go

everybody must be labeled or you won't be able to tell an anarchist from a statist

When/where did I say this?

Reasonable people can definitely disagree on tactic; the contradiction inherent in using the state's process to eliminate the state is not lost on anyone - Adam included (I assume). One could definitely make a good faith argument that it's a waste of time and resources, a la a slave expressing a preference for no master instead of expressing a preference for one of two masters.

All that being said, is there a tactical advantage to the fighting? Adam's goals appear to be the same as Larken's, even if they disagree entirely on method. Does Adam's campaign of political libertarianism detract from the sort of technolibertarianism or personal choice libertarianism that others may embrace to side-step or fight the state?

I haven't seen Adam condemn anyone who uses methods other than his. I guess I'm unclear on the purpose of fighting philosophical although non-tactical allies.

Well said, news2share. I hope this next debate clears up a few things. time will tell

Great point Ford! This is exactly how I feel about it, and something I try to focus on a LOT when dealing with activists. If the end goal is the same... You don't have to agree or support what they're doing, but bickering isn't going to help bring more people into the philosophy.