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donkeypong (75) · 7 years ago (edited)

Great thoughts and an interesting discussion item. I have mixed feelings about the vote buying and renting. All of my votes are used for good content and for people who are working hard as curators and community builders to build this ecosystem. Even from a self-interested perspective, as a Steem holder, supporting good content and growth builds long term value and is a much better use of my voting power than simply selling it.

However, not everyone wants to engage with the content all the time. There need to be good reasons to hold Steem and some want a faster return. Also, the biggest issue here from Day 1 has been the imbalance in voting power. Kevin, you and I have spent the last 18 months or so supporting good content but also helping Steem climb out of that hole by giving under-rewarded users a chance to earn rewards for their work (and hopefully save some of it to increase their own voting power).

So I am sympathetic to those who want to rent or buy votes on their posts. I did not need to go through that, but only because I was fortunate to start here early. It's not easy for most people to get votes and rewards. I can see how renting or buying would be quite tempting, especially in the beginning when it's hard to get noticed.

I would much rather see good content get curated and rewarded for its merits rather than votes being sold and rented to anyone, but everyone deserves a chance and not everyone has been getting it, absent those services. So they do fill a need. That probably results in some lower quality content, but I also feel that we need to move beyond the expectation of only long posts getting rewarded. We need to reward people (at an appropriate level) for short form posts, links, memes, photos, videos, music, comments, and other activities and participation, not just long writing. Hopefully, we find those organically.

Finally, it's a free market. If voting power has a value, then that indicates a gap in the system, and I think people should be able to trade in it. We may see the same thing in the future with bandwidth as that becomes a desired item. And in the end, I don't know what effect all of this has on the content, but as long as people are engaged and participating and attracting others, then we'll see where it goes.

$14.67

itchykitten (59) · 7 years ago

I would much rather see good content get curated and rewarded for its merits rather than votes being sold and rented to anyone, but everyone deserves a chance and not everyone has been getting it, absent those services. So they do fill a need.

@donkeypong This resonates hugely with me. And honestly, In my humble opinion, nothing compares with GOOD curation by the community. The reality of selling votes is that it has zero effect on rewarding good content. Anyone who can pay, can get a vote...and so many people do it, that it raises the water level of what it takes to "get noticed" anyway.

And in the end, I don't know what effect all of this has on the content, but as long as people are engaged and participating and attracting others, then we'll see where it goes.

I totally appreciate your honesty here. The most salient question for me is what type of Steemit Ecosystem sets us up for becoming Respected, Desired, and Notable in the 'real world'. If our ecosystem is flooded with cheap, transitive, and barely above spamming quality interactions and posts, that is super obvious to people.

If we can influence the system to heavily encourage QUALITY over MANIPULATION, that is also super obvious to anyone looking in. I want a Steemit that when a totally random person comes across online, they're like, HOLY FUCK, those people are doing something amazing.

Appearances are everything. Currently I think many people look at the site, and it looks somewhat akin to a freaky cult built around sucking up to each other.

Anyway, I'm really glad you're discussing the subject, I believe it to be of utmost importance to the future of the platform.

Also I totally agree with you here....

We need to reward people (at an appropriate level) for short form posts, links, memes, photos, videos, music, comments, and other activities and participation, not just long writing. Hopefully, we find those organically.

And might like to add, that ultimately finding ways to reward people that encourages them to offer wild, insightful, and very honest, or at least creative interactions is going to be key. I think the KIND of interactions people offer is huge...and for new folks seeing massive amounts of bot spam all over the place seems like a pretty clear detriment to all of us.

$1.94

4 votes

kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

Love your response @itchykitten. Steemit is always going to be a free-for-all core website for the steem chain so everything will be here, it's natural then there will be plenty of disagreements until theres more user interfaces and communities that curate and produce according to different ethos. One thing i hope again is the reduction of bot spam especially from notification from voting services.

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itchykitten (59) · 7 years ago

One thing i hope again is the reduction of bot spam especially from notification from voting services.

Yeah that seems like a pretty solid low hanging fruit.

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nationalpark (63) · 7 years ago (edited)

@kevinwong, thanks for the good post.
@donkeypong, thanks for the good comment.

When I just joined Steemit a few months ago, I was surprised that self-voting was denounced by everybody, but there is no voice to denounce vote-selling. Self-voting gets half SP and half SBD. Vote selling gets all SBD (all cash) and can get curation. I was always wondering why vote-selling is tolerated by all the whales, and on the other hand self-voting is a shame.

However, sometimes, minnows need to buy votes, because they don't have other choice:

When I just joined Steemit, nobody knew me and I knew nobody. I have to pay the bot to up vote me for visibilities and increase reputation. I believe I did not get financial gain by buying the votes. My only gain is that my reputation increased a little from the votes.
When I detected firepower, a reputation 69 user, was using a bot to sent out more than 300 comments in a single day to spam Steemit, I wrote an article to reveal it. Then, firepower, the spammer, came to curse me, threaten me, and down vote me. He even banned my steemit.chat account. For some reasons that I don't know, you guys also came to down vote me. Fortunately, both of you removed the down votes within hours. However, firepower and his bot s4s down voted me very hard. I have no powerful friend to seek help. In order to make my articles visible, I have to buy the up votes, no other choice. I paid more than $45 to buy the up votes to make my articles visible. Its my only weapon to fight a powerful spammer and abuser.

Steemit.chat, the channel for appeal, is controlled by firepower, a spammer and abuser. He wants to be the dictator and censor steemit. Can anybody help me to bring this issue to SteemFest? Thanks

$1.27

bullionstackers (71) · 7 years ago

upvote for visibility

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nationalpark (63) · 7 years ago

Thanks

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irreverent-dan (60) · 7 years ago (edited)

So you think it's appropriate for one to buy votes in order to increase his/her reputation?
Reputation cannot be bought; it must be earned.

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nationalpark (63) · 7 years ago (edited)

Hey, Brother
What do you want to say? I signed in and found randowhale listed in steemit tool page. I used this 'tool' when I was new at Steemit. What do you want to imply?

Also, I am curious why did you send money to randowhale? Donations?
Screen Shot 2017-10-30 at 4.15.05 PM.png

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irreverent-dan (60) · 7 years ago

No, I have also tested these services myself a few times before realizing that this increases my reputation alongside the rewards.

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nationalpark (63) · 7 years ago

Got it

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irreverent-dan (60) · 7 years ago

All I'm saying is that self-bought votes shouldn't increase the reputation score.

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nationalpark (63) · 7 years ago (edited)

When I was new at here, I was trying to submit good post to curie, and was told my reputation was too low.

How much reputation the self bought votes can give? Not too much.

The real problems are circle jerk and the whales who sell the votes.

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taskmaster4450 (78) · 7 years ago

I commend Kevin and yourself for making the concerted effort to reward quality content especially from newer people. For those with strong voting power, I will state it is greatly appreciated. And isnt that the solution to eliminating the need to buy voting power.

Personally, I have not done it nor will I. I can understand those that do and why they do it. However, if those with the VP voted for quality content, which is posted on here daily, wouldnt minnow turn into bigger fish at a much quicker pace?

I really have no problem with those who upvote their own posts. If one is looking for quality content, cant one find it in his/her own creation. I am sure most feel their stuff is quality.

Ultimately, I dont think anything will stop it. People engage in behavior that is self serving for the most part. People will buy votes simply because it helps them out. It is no different from the posts we see about the whales simply upvoting each other (which isnt completely true but that is another story)....why shouldnt they? If it serves them to "circle" vote, why shouldnt they?

kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

For one i think @randowhale or services that are riskier or on the gamble side is a better form when it comes to the game aspects of voting. Services that offer higher payouts (compared to the required service fee) coming from the rewards pools seems like it removes some kind of value. Not sure if im making sense here but my gut is telling me the economics of such an arrangement is kinda punishing the rest of the network since some really do offer much greater short term rewards without any risk..

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taskmaster4450 (78) · 7 years ago

I would agree....it does hurt the rest of the network. Anytime gaming the system enables one (or many) to get a disproportionate part of the reward that means that those not gaming the system are affected. It is one thing to upvote your own content since you still have only one vote. However, when votes are bought then you are confronted with a situation where that person has multiplied their votes.

And that hurts the entire system.

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kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

Yup agreeable that vote buying services can be put to good use. We should be free to trade as long as there's mutual consent. It's just that it can equally be abused, affecting the network. So I guess vote service providers just have to make sure its a net positive for the platform. Thinking about it now, I wonder if vote services should leave comments for every post. It looks spammy but on hindsight, it does provide notice for the rest of the community that a post has used said service, so users can determine if its abusive in nature or not. Maybe theres a better way to do this though. Also I've been thinking about the economics of vote services that offer significant short term returns, above the service fee which doesnt seem to make sense. Being riskless on that front just means that the risk has been pushed onto the rest of the network. Or maybe if everybody starts using them by default, the returns vs fee will reach an equilibrium and starts to be riskier for any users getting less tham what they paid for.

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happyphoenix (66) · 7 years ago

There is Javanese Proverb, This is Joyoboyo prediction (He predicted about this around 300-500 years ago). "Saiki jaman edan, lek ora edan ora keduman. Tapi sak becik-becike wong edan ijin luwih becik wong waspodo".

I have already posted about this. https://steemit.com/indonesia/@happyphoenix/saiki-jaman-edan-ora-melu-edan-ora-keduman-sekarang-jaman-edan-tidak-ikut-edan-tidak-kebagian-we-are-in-crazy-time-era-not-join

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mother2chicks (61) · 7 years ago

Agree with you Kevin even if I do understand why others choose faster methods to be upvoted. At least I have the knowledge that it was my reputation was earned by my followers that enjoyed reading my content. Thanks for your post. 🐓🐓

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teamsteem (74) · 7 years ago

Like you said, it's pretty hard to tell and so we shall see where it leads us.

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shello (62) · 7 years ago

Hello @donkeypong,

After reading through what you and @kevinwong's take on vote buying and renting, I wanted to share my experience and thoughts as well regarding this somewhat taboo topic. I used to buy votes occasionally when I felt that I wasn't being noticed myself. This quickly became a habit of buying them after posting, and I have since then (about a week) refuse to press any button that gives me votes, bought or not as I feel that this behavior would harm my account's credibility in the long run.

When talking about the "tribalistic support-for-support mentality", a lot of newer users including myself, have limited options outside of banding together with a circle that looks out for one another's content. However, when pulling back to see the whole picture, how often are these friends even reading, rather than for the sake of voting you because your article was good?

One thing that lead to my frustrations on Steemit, was how long I would work on some articles, for no one to read, nonetheless vote, and these paid services evened the playing field just a little bit, giving newer authors a chance to be seen higher on the list for their category.

One thing I really liked about your comment @donkeypong, was that I also agree that not every "great post" has to be the length of a book, along with barring myself from paid voting bots, I also have begun the process of varying the length of my own posts. Not every follower is going to read above 2000 word, hanging on every sentence, and at times, shorter pieces can also leave lasting impacts.

As far as giving out my power to someone else's vote, I currently have most of my sp delegated out for curation and spam fighting initiatives. I may not be able to make a difference with the few hundred SP I was using, but I know that others do, and can hopefully make positive dents in Steemit's eco system. Thank you for this enjoyable read guys.

Mahalo,
@shello

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steevc (73) · 7 years ago

Just because others are shitting on the banquet is not a reason to join in. Steemit was intended to reward good content. It didn't always work out that way, but some of us still support that ideal. I don't buy votes or vote on my own posts on principle. It's up to others to judge if what I do has value

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7 votes

itchykitten (59) · 7 years ago

I don't buy votes or vote on my own posts on principle. It's up to others to judge if what I do has value

I have to admit, as much as I don't really approve of it systemically, I am totally supporting it by buying votes. There's a part of me that wants to bring my actions more inline with my ideals, and I haven't done it yet. I think I'm scared. I love looking at my profile and seeing those numbers!!! It's crazy, but I want to look at my posts and see that they are 'valuable'.

Man Steve, I think I need to step up my game.

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steevc (73) · 7 years ago

Everyone is free to do what they like. The community will decide where they want things to go

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kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

Well some have to hold guard and im glad you're one of the ones doing it. Either way, if many are flocking to voting services i think we might see a point when fees requires to access such services would become more expensive compared to the returns. I mean its a good service if used non-abusively.

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heymattsokol (68) · 7 years ago

I believe that vote buying is bad for steem as a whole, and for the individuals who do it.

Because when you are new to steem and you buy votes... you may earn a few bucks, but you cut yourself off from the real valuable stuff like Curie upvotes, OCD upvotes, etc etc.

It also looks bad - all those "Upvoted by [bot!]" comments are like kryptonite for real power users here, lol. I don't wanna support content that is funneling money into upvote bots.

It's hard though... what can we do? This is a free market, after all, and as long as there is profit to be had by running votebots, someone is gonna do it. So how can we constructively de-value bot votes? IDK to be honest.

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9 votes

calatorulmiop (57) · 7 years ago

What are Curie and OCD upvotes and why would somebody be cut off from them by using voting bots?

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heymattsokol (68) · 7 years ago

Curie and OCD are two of the largest curation projects on steem. They offer big upvotes to new users creating quality content. In Curie's case, these votes can be worth $80+.

For Curie, you are not eligible for upvotes unless your post is worth less than $1 and your reputation is 52 or lower. This is because the goal is to support new, unestablished users - to get them some rewards and recognition for the hard work they do.

Whenever a new user boosts their posts via upvote bots, they usually end up earning 3-5 bucks... minus whatever they pay for the bots. This makes them ineligible for Curie and only earns then a dollar or two of profit. It's a real shame, IMO.

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calatorulmiop (57) · 7 years ago

Thanks for the explanation :)

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hmushtaq (58) · 7 years ago

Any link to this OCD and Curie think would be greatly appreciated.

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steemmatt (69) · 7 years ago (edited)

I really appreciate this topic and window for discussion. Aside from well-intended services such as minnowbooster for new users scraping on the bottom (introduced by a very helpful and supportive @reggaemuffin on the team to feel it's for a good cause), the concept of vote buying more than that really pisses me off. I think it's important to separate this into two parts: 1) Using bots (selectively vs in mass), and 2) bribing for or offering personal upvotes for a price.

Sending individuals SBD for their upvote is not an option for me, regardless of any level of success or failure I have on Steemit. While this platform often feels like a pyramid to claw up, it still feels like buying or selling votes in that fashion is cheating the system. The same goes for legacy arrangements for swapping huge upvotes.

While buying is your question, the same concept can be flipped to those who choose to sell their votes. People with valuable voting power that engage in this (scenario 2 above) are being greedy, and the blockchain can't hide it. I believe that it's a function of ethics, but perhaps I'm too biased or strict. If people don't sell, there's nothing to buy. It starts at the top.

I think that people should let the community reward naturally for effort and value. Quality work and proactive engagement will eventually snowball into a loyal following in theory. Maybe it won't with all of this said spam and static. But, turning to shortcuts means you're not willing to do the work and probably won't have what it takes. It's not easy getting virtually nothing for my posts unless I reluctantly use minnowbooster to salvage some pride and get my voters some type of return. I've only done this a few times because I mainly want my effort to be seen and appreciated, and it doesn't necessary have to be in monetary form. Receiving comments and discussion is more valuable to me than $10.

Regardless, if I'm going to succeed on this site, it's going to be organically via good content, intentions and networking by my own means. I won't sell/buy out.

What's the root of the problem? I think it's the supply and demand of meaningful upvotes for non-whales!! I think that part of this buy/sell "marketplace" is being generated from a large portion of powerful Steemit users staying connected with each other via voting rings and favors, regardless of how poor the content is. Do people really need the largest ROI on their curation that badly when their account is loaded? No. It feels like politics. I've seen the most absurd posts yield hundreds and am shocked that the whales could even vote for it, i.e., what makes it appear like there's more to the story. This isn't a conspiracy theory, I see it every day, and it's transparent via steemd or steemnow. If those users were actively curating and rewarding newer users, the demand for buying and selling votes would not be as strong.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

$2.67

kalemandra (74) · 7 years ago

Paying for votes is equal to corruption in politics. How is it here in Steemit? To tell the truth, I pay for voting, 20-50 SBD/week, but I don't feel good to do that. I need it yet, because every dollar counts for me, as Steemit is a tool for surviving day by day. This seems to be a kind of investment, which brings a little surplus, 10-20 or sometimes 50%. But I don't think it's good when thousands of people use voting bots to boost even their bad quality or spam posts. I'm trying to write good content with original photos/artworks as far as I can. I do a lot of effort here, but not everybody do the same, just a low percentage of steemians. What does this lead to? Dilution of contents, more spam and so on!

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itchykitten (59) · 7 years ago

Upvoted for honestly sister!!! I also buy votes and don't really agree with it!

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world-travel-pro (76) · 7 years ago

Totally agree. I really don't get it. If you are buying votes, then aren't you often paying more for the vote than what the vote is worth?...or maybe not. For me it all seems just pretty lame. I'd prefer to reach out to whales like yourself, and say "Hey! throw this little guy a bone. Can't you see how much work I put into my highly unique and informative blog. I can't be doing this for pennies." Something like that.

I haven't came out and said that to you. But I did @lukestokes just before quitting the platform. He saw and recognized my efforts and quality work here, and has since supported me. With him having a 7 dollar up-vote it's changed everything for me here, and frankly has kept me here.

You actually checked out my work and gave me four fat up-votes in a row. It's hard to describe how good that made me feel after almost quitting.

My first two months was like $.13 (20 upvotes) $.42 (30 upvotes) $.63 (40 upvotes) Getting paid is where it's at brother! I don't have time to work for free. I enjoy my travel life. Getting support from the whales is like getting hired for my contributions to the platform.

I've been living out of a backpack for 11 years. My blog is so informative and unique for just another "travel blog". People are now seeing it and appreciating it. I didn't intend to write so much about myself, but minnows are struggling here and want to make it so bad, that they buy their up-votes! uggg. I was literally just going walk away instead, and call it a loss.

Thank you for your support in the present, past, and future. Love and appreciate what you do here as well! Enjoy Steemfest my Steemit friend.

$0.96

coolmyll (54) · 7 years ago

I am kinda new here and i only used originalworks bot, but even that adds a comment that seems kinda... spammy.
I look at some other people i follow and even if i like the content and want to comment i see many bot upvote comments that get me personally discouraged to comment.
I just want to post things i am interested in and hope other people like it too, but is the "shortcuts" to success or more views worth it?

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pharesim (74) · 7 years ago

Fully agree, but obviously unavoidable. I support the pledge to let it at least happen silently.

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quattrophoto (49) · 7 years ago (edited)

Although you and allot of the commenters make valid sentiments about the integrity of the platform being violated, I have no problem with automated vote buying services like @randowhale . Currently, it seems like the trending and hot content is solely due to whales and whale votes. The only way to compete with that is to promote your post in various ways. I see users using vote buying the most when they put a great deal of time an effort into something and what it to have a chance at getting some momentum. I myself have written detailed articles that I worked on for days, had I not got it to the hot page with voting bots, it would have got far less exposure, likes, comments, and dialogue. Heres the article https://steemit.com/technology/@quattrophoto/the-orewellian-experience-of-working-at-an-amazon-warehouse

And I still didn't even “profit” off this article, I lost money like most people do who buy votes, which is fine i gained followers and the satisfaction of having a valuable conversation with real people

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14 votes

kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

If im right about randowhale, its more of a gamble since the returns might be less than the input since the upvote strength is well, randomised

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quattrophoto (49) · 7 years ago

I dont think ive ever not gained steem using rando its payout is always higher than the payment by design

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kouba01 (81) · 7 years ago (edited)

I do not appreciate people asking for votes and I strongly feel that their work should do all the talking. If someone consistently produces quality content, maintains a solid level of activity and otherwise engages with the community, that someone is bound to gain readers and thus, slowly, upvotes. I would much rather encourage people to focus on producing as opposed to shouting the loudest to get votes, however you wrap the latter.

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7 votes

irreverent-dan (60) · 7 years ago

You have a very good point! I have tested these voting services myself a few times, and to be honest, I disliked the following automated comments and the fact that my reputation increased. That's right - when one's buying votes, one's also buying reputation. I find this ridiculous!

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juansurf67 (43) · 7 years ago

good point

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calatorulmiop (57) · 7 years ago

I think in real life buying votes undermines a lot in a democratic society but when it comes to steemit I feel it's double edged sword, because on one hand it can help you reach the trending page and get to a wider audience faster but on the other hand it adds a layer of distance and greed in relationship to the audience.

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fem-of-war (63) · 7 years ago

I think outside of discussion..... everyone should stop clinching their pearls and let the market decide

Crypto's offer the sanctuary from the nanny state..... if you want big brother telling you how to act and what to do, go back to facebook

Never strive to surrender freedom

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vm2904 (64) · 7 years ago

@kevinwong - It has always been a dilemma for me. Frankly, I am no saint and initially did resort to Randowhale. Not for making more money but for the hope of more visibility. I do not think it helped much in terms of visibility anyways but made me feel cheap to be honest. I do succumb to thoughts of purchased votes when the posts get no appreciation once in a while but resist the temptation to actually buy votes most of the time.
With Steemit having substantially more posts per minute now than a few months ago, it is hard for even good posts to get noticed. Commenting with good thoughtful comments does get attention still on Steemit but again, it is becoming harder for Steemians to sift through tons of spam and meaningless comments to find a good comment. Under the circumstances, I see many Steemians spend 5-10 SBD and try to gain 10-15 SBD in the hopes that their post at least made more money than the few cents it would have made. I do not see a way to stop this. Can anyone suggest a way ?

Regards,

@vm2904

kendewitt (56) · 7 years ago

Good content isn’t guaranteed to be seen. So I support voting bots, because they increase the visibility of content you’ve worked hard on. From there, it’s up to the community as to whether they value the content or not. I see it as kind of like buying insurance for all your hard work.

And if you spend Steem to buy votes for shitposts over and over, you are probably wasting your money.

Good content and voting bots are not necessarily incompatible.

kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

As usual, any it's up to service providers to ensure a net positive. Abuses are bound to happen, which is most of what I've observed on the network.

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vangelov (60) · 7 years ago

I used to buy upvotes from minnowbooster and it really did boost my SP quite a bit, But realizing that this brakes the price of steem and sbd I stopped. Now using the internal market to make some small trades which yield kinda the same payback and I'm focusing on finding genuine supporters rather than paying for upvotes. It is extremely hard because almost nobody can notice you from the great post bleed and little people would actually support you with their upvote, but its better this way.

Thanks for sharing the article, pleople really need to realize that the more they buy upvotes the less value the money received will have in the future !

All the best !

snowflake (65) · 7 years ago

If authors could chose how much rewards they want to give to curators there would be no need for these vote buying schemes.
Newbies would just set a large % to curators to boost their post. A much cleaner and decentralized way to achieve the same thing.
https://steemit.com/steem/@snowflake/make-curating-great-again

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kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

Is it for curators though? Seems likes its more for authors using the services themselves.. although i do see a point in getting more returns for the curators thatve spent their limited voting power on one's post..

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safwaninisam (58) · 7 years ago

actually the basic purpose of steemit is very good, just because our mindset is different. So in using steemit, not all use in accordance with the wishes of the developer of the steemit project, but I think it's a natural thing. It's just that developers need to be consistent with the basic project.

Regards

kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

Good response. Anyway its good to have honest discussions and figure out the technology along the way :)

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positivesteem (70) · 7 years ago

As a veteran minnow who produces reasonably good content but still lack the exposure I turned to the voting bots to increase visibility of my posts. I worked very hard and have been coming out with a good article daily. I also looked at it as a way of rewarding those who voted for me, as 25% of the extra earnings which I paid for will be distributed to the curators. If there are better ways of giving more exposure to my posts, I will like to try them as well.

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ogochukwu (68) · 7 years ago (edited)

Hello @kevinwong

I have never liked the idea of using any vote buying service, i used it once and after much thought I found out that it is counter productive.

I believe that we should spend our time making valuable connections instead of buying votes with a view to earn more.

Another thing I don't like is the idea of renting Steem Power. I believe that it will make Steemians focus less on what actually matters which is building connections with that will also bring the desired earnings down the line.

The comments that also comes along with it makes it more annoying.

theheralds (57) · 7 years ago

@ogochukwu renting Steem Power? just heard about it now, this will make people lose the right frame of mind to what steem stand for.

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kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago (edited)

People are free to trade as long as there's mutual consent. But yea I think it's ultimately counterproductive as well. It's based on rental in the end. I think it's better to encourage using the same funds to acquire and keep SP instead, going for the long term game. But then again I have a strong opinion on rent-seeking behaviours https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking which I'd agree isn't a clear cut matter, which is also why I tend to be more middle-ground since extremism might be worse..

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cryptopie (81) · 7 years ago

It is said that absolute power corrupts absolutely.This is what happens when people gets the power to do things like having the power to sell votes. And it gets abused and misused, we still have a room to learn and grow here @kevinwong .

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kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

Open discussion is where its at :) hopefully any service providers that are making plenty off the platform gets more scrutiny.

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steemmatt (69) · 7 years ago

Not bad wisdom, @cryptopie. Great minds think alike as I said the same lost up above.

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acwood (60) · 7 years ago

I have used services like @buildawhale @minnowbooster @boomerang and @bellyrub.
Personally I don't find anything wrong with these services.
You have to remember that it is me paying for these services and by doing so I not only make a bit more steem but I also make more for the curators of my posts.

What does bug me is the fact that there are some people that leave a comment on a post asking you to send them money and they will upvote you but never upvote the post.
Or the fact that my wallet is full of people that want me to send them money to upvote or resteem my post but do nothing to increase my steem power. They are the true scammers!

Thanks for the article and the discussion.

...upvoted and resteemed, my friend!

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taministy (60) · 7 years ago

I personally as a beginner in steemit not yet fully know about bribery or vote buying like you say, but it is provided in steemit .. I myself will change that pattern or that way. Thank you sir @kevinwong

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13 votes

gniksivart (67) · 7 years ago

Vote buying is fine.

It only gurantees short term success and doesnt include loyalty. Those who put in the true value on steemit will eventually rise to the top.

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13 votes

ceepee (60) · 7 years ago

Hello @kelvinwong, glad i came accross this post. I for one does not support vote buying and have never used the services since my few months on steemit. Reason been that i dont see it as profitable and the effect it has on visibilty is feasible to me.
However, i can understand why people would want to buy votes. It can be very fustrating and discouraging to have put up a post and do not get rewards. Lots of steemit accounts are dead at the moment due to posting and not get rewarded. Now there is a glitched to what is know as quality post on steemit. Long, well disseted, with good pictures, for a post to be quality enough to get reward. Not everyone can do that. Like @donkeypong pointed out, other forms of posts needs to be rewarded also. When i joined steemit, i thought it was a place where you can just blog and be cool. But thats not the case, it is about who likes what you blog, is about who gets to see your post, it is about what steemit regard as a good content. I do understand that, as we cant really be visible to everyone, or get to reach everyone.
I guess this is the reason people have to opt for vote buying to encourage themselves to blog. The truth is we all have our circle on steemit and cannot reach every good content. However quality the content of a minnow post is, they can never get what a whale gets for reward, not because the content not good enough, but the circle he/she belongs to.
Buying votes may be bribery, but people have to do what they have to do to earn, build a reputaion, survive and be consistence on steemit. Despite the fact that, few of the many powerful people have been very helpful with rewarding, they cannot reach everyone.
In this plight i would suggest, in as much as buying of vote doesnt give much value and tends more to the abusing side, buying of votes shouldnt be frowned. For those who needs it, they should be able to access the services,if that is what it takes for them to earn and remain active.
My sincere opinion. Thank you.

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ceepee (60) · 7 years ago

Just to add, the advertisement part sucks. It should be taking away.
By the way, i really like that this discussion came up. I would follow it all through. More of discussions like this should be put up to know other people's view and idea. Thank you for this post @kelvinwong

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cheapogroovo (54) · 7 years ago

I decided to mention my top followers (in terms of Steem Power) in every post's comments. I hope to draw their attention and get a hefty upvote.

I also promote my posts on Facebook and I am slowly growing my base of followers.

But after 6 months, I realized many were gaming the system with bots. I felt like I had no other choice but to join in.

I hope to clean up my feed so I can vote for everyone at least once a week, but I doubt I will get much reciprocation.

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kevinwong (76) · 7 years ago

no other choice but to join in
I dunno, succumbing to the situation feels like the opposite of "be the change you wanna see", although perhaps there's a reason for the saying "fight fire with fire". Might have some truth to it but feels like the opposite for me just like going to war for peace.

Personally I think reciprocation has nothing to do with performance, which is why I'm not big on support4support..

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cheapogroovo (54) · 7 years ago

I don't want to buy votes, but I don't want to have a low reputation score either.I feel if I could get at least 17 cents on every post (legit votes), this site makes economic sense in my set of alternative income steams.

I don't feel reciprocation is appropriate either. Nut the WHALES NEVER sharing their power with others is even worse. That is why I'm cleaning up my feed to align myself with people who have similar interests. Now I can spread my vote around to those who post relevant content and find better resteem opportunities.

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joythewanderer (78) · 7 years ago (edited)

Support!!

Indeed like the real world, we only have too limited resources here on Steemit, sadly. Vote buying is according to me surely a way of corruption, either robot or human. I was using it myself but now stopped it. Since many whales stopped voting in a large scale, good projects like Curie and OCD should be valued and supported more to motivate new Steemians than the voting bots.

BTW: When will you enter the teleportation machine to Lisbon?

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mejustandrew (58) · 7 years ago

Have a nice trip to Lisbon and party there! Indeed the pollution of Steem with adds and commercial comments is feeling more and more intense these days. I guess that people are encouraged to do so by the actual format of the platform...

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clumsysilverdad (64) · 7 years ago

I've never heard of a time when vote buying was anything but a shitty idea for a social body.

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teukumukhlis (70) · 7 years ago

They are disappointed not getting upvote. Their rewards are low. That's the last option.

I do it, but more do not. I realize, buying a vote will ruin the way it works here. I enjoyed Steemit more in the early days.

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steem77 (59) · 7 years ago

this is done by those who think instantly, I prefer to enjoy every post I .. or enjoy what I write

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teukumukhlis (70) · 7 years ago

It should be so.

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steem77 (59) · 7 years ago

Yups

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juansurf67 (43) · 7 years ago

that is the point, i just post i loved to know is not controlled or manipulated like facebook
i can express my self and slowly im creating a group of followers, but for short i see a lot of people started and going in the 2 months , but i think is people don't understand the platform

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steem77 (59) · 7 years ago

right .. they do not understand steemit platform, and they are just looking for something from steemit, when they can not, then they will soon go

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juansurf67 (43) · 7 years ago (edited)

some people are for money and some because love the idea, is easy to stay if you like the idea, if you are for money is more difficult i think

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owner99 (66) · 7 years ago

the reason they buy because they are tired of waiting, every post is considered waste is not appreciated. Maybe that's just my opinion.

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kpd-244 (53) · 7 years ago

nice blog about vote

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ty2nicerva (62) · 7 years ago

Most whales don't curate content and only trade votes with other whales so they don't get ridiculed for self voting........just like real life.

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food-travel (47) · 7 years ago

Amazing post ...

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steveconnor (65) · 7 years ago

Been here on Steemit a few weeks and have experimented with various services and strategies. I think overall, buying votes benfits mostly the bot owners although the purchaser may get a small ROI and some more followers it is short lived. In the long run, Organic upvotes and Real Resteems / Real Comments / Real Relationships will be the only sustainable model if you want humans to enjoy their time here. If not, humans will join and quickly leave, ultimately giving the bots nothing to upvote except for the other Bots posts. With that said, the marketplace will determine the real value of the services and the Real Humans will ultimately have to decide if it's worth it to purchase the service of the Bots. Unfortunately, newer members of Steemit need some way to get exposure since the established Steemit members have a major advantage and are always on top of the trending pages. During my 1st week on Steemit I can remember thinking this was like a precursor to interacting with Cyborgs in Real Life...

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hasanuddin (56) · 7 years ago

Sometimes we are too tempted by an illustration regardless of the substance of a post value.

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cryptobeans (47) · 7 years ago

@kevinwong nice post. Funny how i go away for few weeks and make my 150th post about something like this. To use a bot for the sole purpose to acquire profit compared to just being yourself and let your work speak the volumes for you is just stupid. If you're here to strictly make profit, then maybe Steem and the beautiful community around it are not for you. I truly enjoy reading the purposeful posts that are organic and shared simply for the comments and/or to give knowledge to all Steemians alike. Thank you for bringing to the forefront a potentially dangeous problem for the community. Upvoted and followed sir!

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waresh (25) · 7 years ago

Hello bro seriously awesome post. I did up and comment please do so for me. Otherwise i will never make my power up. Please help me sir

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carlschrijft (55) · 7 years ago

It's up to anybody who wants to be upvoted by a bot. I rather have an honoust upvote from an interested reader though. I share your opinion that quality, creativity and originality do have my preferance ;)

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bang.rabok (53) · 7 years ago

Nice picture..

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glennolua (68) · 7 years ago

There are a lot of people who sign up for this platform, blog and do not see many upvotes worth more than .50. If they wish to continue and believe in Steemit/Steem, they can purchase upvotes and gain a little bit of SP/SBD. (Like me...)

If someone continues to blog and does not receive upvotes like the popular Steemians, they will quit which is apparent with 425K accounts made and 26k posts per day. Roughly a 6% participation rate which does not include multiple posts by one user and bots.

Take away all of the upvote services like Randowhale and the amount of people quitting this platform will rise IMO. (Steemit will be the old regs, whales and dolphins upvoting each other, is that what Ned and Dan wanted?) People will not put up with the rich getting richer and the poor not receiving upvotes...

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mukhtar.juned (59) · 7 years ago

Would you like a place that's polluted with advertisements and commercials? of course I do not like, thank @kevinwong. I has upvote and resteem it.

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richq11 (72) · 7 years ago

I am and always have been a firm believer in Meritocracy... what you make on any post should be based on the quality therein. Vote buying is wrong. be it in politics, a social media platform or anywhere else.

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sizuka (53) · 7 years ago

Thanks for giving the chance to enjoy this beautiful news!!

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kakilasak (65) · 7 years ago (edited)

All about how to get vote.. And some account give vote after transaction. For me, I try what people suggest, but if in next is wrong. I stop buying :)

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theheralds (57) · 7 years ago

@kevinwong Yes it is, corruption is everywhere any business which is not built on the grounds of integrity and sincerity does not last. Those using cheats to get upvote and follower will soon fair badly.
proverbs 22:29 Have you seen a man skillful at his work? He will stand before kings;He will not stand before common men. @theheralds

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fikri (54) · 7 years ago

I like it @kevinwong

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chbalk (58) · 7 years ago

I am relatively new in Steemit and I feel that those providing and those supporting quality content are struggling with this effort... All these have to stand up and keep scammers, unhonest "players" without a "game", be it the expectation for money or any other goal they have.

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abduhawab (79) · 7 years ago

What a wise thought, my friend. What I see here how we can earn much steem to get noticed. I stalked to newbies post and they did good but after long waiting the post got nothing. Basically, people who joined steemit will, at least, get a reward even small number. We must understand about their feeling, and we must be sure that they are doing a lot to create a good content. I am not blaming the users who buy the upvote, I tend to see they are trying to get their post noticed. For us as minnow it is not easy to get upvote from the influence users even our content is acknowledged. We are not yet to come in comfort zone, we must work harder to find it out. If we want to create steemit like a firm arena, there should be friendly welcome to every users. Help them to feel this platform like home. That what I thought, my friend.

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rahulsaini (57) · 7 years ago

Its seems you are saying well and this is right as well
and i also don't like a place that's polluted with advertisements and commercials.
great post because rich people don't work differ ,they think differ

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rossenpavlov (69) · 7 years ago

I've been saying the same thing from day one. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, buying votes is harmful to all in the long term, except just a few people who drain the rewards.
You can't make a shitpost, pay for it, make a little profit and repeat the process.

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jakkris (59) · 7 years ago

I think that doing it is not wrong. It's more personal. He has comments on since steem to get more since steem, And it depends on how you get hit.

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theghost1980 (69) · 7 years ago

It is in deed an interesting topic to talk about @kevinwong. I believe that buying votes, if the content is high quality, is good in order to self-promote. If the content is bad, then this is a bad practice to do.
The final promotion of Steemit as a social platform are the articles. Basically every time we post, we are throwing into the web a "piece" of Steemit. This post will give other people, a glimpse about the content within Steemit.
Unless Steemit may find a better way to reward new users, buying votes is a good strategy in order to stand out. Maybe it could be controlled a bit somehow by filtering good and bad content.

PS: I do support buying votes while publishing valuable content. I do not support buying votes for comments, just for posts. Also, I do not like that much the advertising of each voting seller.

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bearbear613 (67) · 7 years ago

Hi Kevin.. as a new minnow I see you joined in 2016. Perhaps the early bird caught the worm such as yourself and you are doing very well. As the platform grows, minnows try to catch up as the reward pool is mostly a conglomerate of veterans holding much of the steem power. It’s harder to be noticed by whales, and many whales have made connections with each other. Without bid bots or what not I would probably only have half my steem power available. Some of my content is very good but gets little notice. So if whales were to commit to help minnows more than often I would agree buying votes would not be needed. However you have greed and some whales are in business. So unfortunately it’s kind of a state of affairs in steemit now. Minnows depend on it right now.

Thanks for taking time to read Kevin.. just a struggling minnow.

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blazing (70) · 7 years ago

i never bought so no idea

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rizasukma (63) · 7 years ago

Should have been from the first I got this very useful writing. I started thinking that we did not have to bribe. But that's what's happening now. Thank you for giving a little enlightenment.

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everittdmickey (73) · 7 years ago

It's immoral, corruption, scammy and nasty.
destroy all bots

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mariska.lubis (67) · 7 years ago

I do agree with you, the reasons why I join Steemit in the first place is because of of my hope for a better future, changing the centralized financial system to decentralized system which is a good way to clean up corruption and its family such as bribery, collusion, etc. That is why I feel uncomfortable with the vote buying, and besides it is not healthy at all. We need to encourage our self to create good posts as the priority, and I am sure we can get good votes and rewards if we continue and consistent creating good quality posts, respects, and ethics. Enjoy Steemfest! Warm Regards from Indonesia.

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philodendron (59) · 7 years ago

Good question, I think it depends on how comfortable the person is about vote buying. Considering that what gets written on the block chain stays forever, I agree with you that it dosent look appealing in the comments section. There are many different types of people, some will use it once in a while, some will abuse it, some will do it without even thinking about it, some who just immitate others thinking thats the way it works, others still who are tempted to try but have moral dilemmas...The steemit universe is still a reflection of the real world, like in the real world it is not the technology that is bad but the way it is used. I cannot say if I agree or not, just that it is. Personally I have never used them, maybe I will, maybe I wont. Since our plunge into the steemit platform we have discovered a great diversity of content to explore, a community of quality people and there is no rush to get to the top at rapid speed. Slowly but surely making our way while meeting great people and writing about what we love, sometimes our posts dont get noticed, sometimes yes, it's all part of the ups and downs of life. By the way I love your shoes! Have fun at steemfest and keep up the good work!!

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stillwater (61) · 7 years ago

I'm all for not "spamming up" the platform with meaningless crap I'll just have to siphon through or do my best to just skip all together.............

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yanosh01 (61) · 7 years ago (edited)

steemit is not a game. Steemit is a life style. I write all day an accurated post because steemit is in my life and my life is in steemit. It's like a drug. I don't want to stop to take it. Support steemit forever. One of the most beaufiful project around the world...

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mathiaspacheco (37) · 7 years ago

I agree with your point of you but if you are a beginner in the steemit word, you will have difficulty to have like and you will lose interess to write post. So I think you can write good comment and incite people to come read your article but not just ask like. And you will get respect of the steemit community by the way. So if you like my comment come read my others posts😂😂😂do what yoh want of your life...

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bahagia-arbi (67) · 7 years ago

Where is @sweetsssj and @htliao? Dont you read this post? Both of you havr give many support for indonesian community. Thanks

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gloglo (63) · 7 years ago

Truely this is a very sensitive topic but all the same I do not believe in buying votes and even though I do not believe in it. Ever since I got into steemit I have been blessed to find you and @donkeypong really supportive of my post and for that I told myself that the least I can do is to continue working very hard to post useful and beneficial content for everyone's good here and beyond.

I see the idea of buying votes kinda illegal and I feel ashamed of it somehow because my view about steemit at my first point of contact was a community of intergrity and so with buying votes I was kind of put off, thus as a result has increased the amount of scammers.

Scammers capitalize on vote buying and rip people off their hard earned sbd... to me this is sad and bad.

Although just like the real world word everyone wants to be seen and so people go extra mile can not be over emphasized. It is true that there are still people who are good that are still struggling.

Hence, I still implore that whales, dolpins and people who are in position to help the young and upcoming to do so.

I would therefore advise that apart from the upvotes, steemit is a place where lives can be changed through meaningful contents by individual. Information is power, which is why everyone should put it upon himself to try and post quality content. For that sake, the upvotes will come.

Please lets nit loss essence of the reasons why we are here and be original. I wish us all a happy and enjoyable stay here while steeming and enriching each other through true and quality contents.

Thank you to @kevinwong and @donkeypong for your supports and love for steemians. Much appreciated.

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tuansenja02 (52) · 7 years ago

Hi @kevinwong. You are an angel.. Since now I will send you SBD 0.001 with my good post in memo. Then you have to upvote it, if you dont, no other choice, I will buy vote from @minnowbooster, @bellyrub, etc...

I hope you get the point...

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silvia (69) · 7 years ago

Thanks for sharing
I like your post
@kevinwong

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steemjaunty (31) · 7 years ago

I appreciate you starting a discussion around this. I don't like the idea of vote buying, I want it to be from actual legit attention and likes.

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shihabieee (8) · 7 years ago

I enjoyed reading your post. There is a lot of good stuff.

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aldentan (67) · 7 years ago

IMO, straight up, not good.

Without even buying, I personally think most of the content here is substandard, albeit sincere. Why? Because they're already validated with a high payout.

Money makes quality ambiguous. I think buying votes would make the newbie not want to push themselves.

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yaanivapeji (65) · 7 years ago

Is vote-buying not similar to automatic voting and curation team? Because for all of them you have to make contacts to get them.

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sandrina.life (58) · 7 years ago

I don't know enough about steemit, but so far also for me support-for-support seems dodgy to me. For now, bots (that are like fraud to me) are the only way to support my survival on this platform, unlucky.

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kuku12170 (60) · 7 years ago

If advertising pours money into the project to develop a resource - then you can try, if the project develops - you can introduce smooth mechanisms for regulating advertising. You can try.

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personz (66) · 7 years ago

Performance will go down the drain if everybody accepts bribery over a focus on performance.

Exactly. It's the old chestnut of the stated purpose of Steemit, that good content gets rewarded, and the unstated side purpose of providing interest on investment. The loft ideals of the whitepaper have not been lived up to.

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myaceh (59) · 7 years ago

I like it this post👍👍🏻

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arcange (73) · 7 years ago

Congratulations @kevinwong!
Your post was mentioned in the hit parade in the following category:

Comments - Ranked 8 with 99 comments

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rizal.konoha2 (57) · 7 years ago

Nice Post @kevinwong

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dukexox (40) · 7 years ago (edited)

I couldn't agree with you more @kevinwong the way I see it is if I want to make my way here then I need to network like crazy and improve my content time and time again. The problem however is society is transfixed with I want it now and I deserve it now even though I have not done anything to earn it. And while there is enough bots around users will use them. I am trying to work my way up in different ways and have promised myself only to use 1 bot for upvotingas it doesn't look great on your post. What does look great is the response you get on yours which is pure interaction. You only have that as you have worked hard for nearly two years, which is a lesson every newbie needs. Enjoy Steemfest and thanks for your thoughts.

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@atjeh01: https://twitter.com/atjeh01/status/925026050567954432?s=09

rismanrachman (62) · 7 years ago

I share via twitter

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edje (69) · 7 years ago (edited)

I think vote buying does not help the human aspect of the community; It'll drive more and more bot generation. Also it does not help quality of content, since the majority of the votes are bought for authors own content. Many Steemians (probably many of the large SP holders) do earn more money than ever before, by running a vote buying service themselves, or renting out their SP to those who run such service.

The comments they place: Yep, I kinda agree they should not be placed. It is indeed advertisement. On the other hand, it can also serve the purpose to those manual (and maybe even auto voters) to not vote for the post when 1 or more votes are bought by the author itself. Not sure if curators actually take that into account. Although I bought from time to time votes (mostly to test it) I do not like these services to be honest. That said, I appreciate the entrepreneurship. I think it was Randowhale who launched such service, and I thought it was very creative thinking. Since then we got so many of these services on Steemit, it almost looks like every day we get new versions of them.

I know it is very time consuming to do manual curation, but that is the only way to keep 1) the community human dominated 2) reward quality 3) distribute the available Steem in a more fair way giving change to the many Steemians at the bottom of the SP pyramid. I would opt for more curation teams to which Steemians can give their SP to, or follow the curation teams with auto followon votes. Curation teams may be the only way to protect the community from becoming more a bot-network over a human dominated network.

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oluwoleolaide (68) · 7 years ago

You are very right @kevinwong, and May you really be blessed for this topic you raised. i have been compared to so many people cos of my earnings on posts based on how long i have joined steemit which really doesn't bother me as long as i don't send token to a whale to come upvote me, if they even do.

I am from Nigeria and I am a goddamn good writer, my daily post are targeted to happenings in life and i know the posts i sweat upon to fetch me some encouraging rewards and the ones i just cook up under 4hrs.

I publish quality post twice daily and never got tired since March until after HF-19 when everything was messed up. Some good people saw my works and gave me some support to encourage me till this moments and i tell you those buying votes won't last cos something else is coming to Steemit that will fuck up this Bribery, Lobbying and Spamming!

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happyme (68) · 7 years ago

I have been trying to get people to understand this for quite some time. I just don't have the following, so hardly anyone sees my posts. I'm glad to see others are seeing the light and also talking about it.

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pardeepkumar (56) · 7 years ago

Paying for vote is not good but steemians di it becoz anyone want to earn some money.

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steemitboard (66) · 7 years ago

Congratulations @kevinwong! You have received a personal award!

SteemFest 2 Attendee SteemFest 2 Attendee
Click on the badge to view your own Board of Honor on SteemitBoard.

By upvoting this notification, you can help all Steemit users. Learn how here!

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steemitboard (66) · 7 years ago

Congratulations @kevinwong! You have completed some achievement on Steemit and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

Award for the number of upvotes

Click on any badge to view your own Board of Honor on SteemitBoard.
For more information about SteemitBoard, click here

If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP

By upvoting this notification, you can help all Steemit users. Learn how here!

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pardeepkumar (56) · 7 years ago

Agreed with ur article @kevinwong

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jacoblayan (57) · 7 years ago

Hi @kevinwong I guess everything is business as usual, I am not sure about vote buying but hoping that it will not be tolerated. thank you

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hafiz34 (66) · 7 years ago

Though I am pretty new but this aspect of steemit (vote buying or even bot) I don't like. It all bots are voting then there will be no interaction as a community. As a new comer I was also tempted to get higher vote from heavyweight users. Honestly I am with one bot team who are voting in my post without reading or knowing my post. Eventually this community is turning into bot community as well as upvote market.

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manorvillemike (65) · 7 years ago

I agree completely.

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michelle.gent (74) · 7 years ago (edited)

I think this is definitely something to chat about at SteemFest2. Looking forward to catching up with you again.

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vegetarianbaker (58) · 7 years ago

I have mixed feelings about it as well. it seems like selling out, but I understand the need to get somewhat exposure.

I try to create High Quality Content and it is hard the morale if no one wants to read it. If a little boost starts the engagement, i'm ok with it. I think.

There are people obviously abusing the power

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manorvillemike (65) · 7 years ago

Need strict rules to keep anything 'pure". Without rules things get watered down and uninteresting.

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fakire1sadaka (64) · 7 years ago (edited)

Hi @kevinwong.
I've been hanging out at other places than your questions.
You look tired like me.
You need to rest. =)))

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