whats best liberalism, socialism or capitalism?

slimanepro (64) · 7 years ago

Nice ..
Great article thanks .. Liberalism like other ideas
Anything more than itself turns against him
Well done Post great

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idestroy (49) · 7 years ago (edited)

While I do agree with some points in your rant @onmindset, this is not a trait that is endemic to a generation.

For example, during the french revolution a lot of the values that you list(sarcasm, nihilism, etc) were also adopted. I chose this example so you could have a clear sense of the connection between those two.

I live in the United States, so I can only speak for what is going on here. You can graduate university, prepare and get good grades, get a job and still struggle for years to pay back loans with a measly pay. Does that make sense in the richest nation on earth? It does not to me. How does it make sense that .01% of the population has most of a country's income? It does not. You can't tell me that .01% is responsible for more than half of that nation's production.

These values that we have in america are a product of a degradation of social values and lack of parenting. This lack of parenting comes from capitalists push to suck every penny out of their own population. And here you have a perfect mix of lack of hope, lack of a clear path, lack of fairness and lack of parenting. That is my generation. And when the game is stacked against any big group of people... you know what they like to do... they reset the game.

I am a libertarian but conservatism in America is a shitshow, specially after Trump. I am a catholic and he does not represent me. Right now, I align with liberals.

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3 votes

scandinavianlife (67) · 7 years ago

Youre a libertarian but not a capitalist. Google laissez faire. You dont have capitalism in usa. Yoy have elements of it. Fractions. You were close in the 50s and 60s. Blacks did great. Children grew up with 2 parents etc. Today 80% of black kids grow up without a dad. Has thebus become more racist? Doesnt make sense. Its because state disables people and destroys family values. Thevsame way it destroys capitalism and corrupt it into something ugly

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idestroy (49) · 7 years ago (edited)

Ok @onmindset, so we agree that we don't have real capitalism in USA. So who defines capitalism? Does the US define it? Or do scandinavian countries do? Because from our perspective, you have a capitalist/socialist hybrid as Bernie Sanders put it. In fact liberals in the US want a scandinavian form of government. And before you come to me with different names and definitions and dates, remember definitions can change. I recommend to just use a word different than capitalism altogether.

You remind me of the crowd who was against FDR(the guy who initiated a lot of safety nets that you guys are using now) and with Reagan. The same crowd that has led us into this shithole. You have to understand that a straight up capitalist and meritocracy will not work. We must as a species know that helping those that are weaker is in our best interests in the long term while at the same time encouraging and promoting success.

Check out @charitybot reply and understand that one thing is to tear systems down(what happened here) and another one is to change them. Scandinavian countries have some of the best systems in the world, if not the bests.

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onmindset (48) · 7 years ago

It's weird how people (in this case, you) claim that capitalism won't work, even though it has never been tried. But socialism, yeah..let's try that over and over and over again. It always ends up in tears - but let's just try it ONE more time :)

Listen - I understand that it's easy to be seduced by how scandinavia is portrayed. Sweden is damn near destroying itself with immigration. Old people are dying in their downshitten beds and the police are quitting their jobs at record speeds. It's a society in slow decay.

In Norway, a country that I know even better, I can agree that it looks good on the surface. And it's not that bad. But it's a strange society. Everyone is equally medicore. We have half the population on welfare, anxiety, depression and straight up welfare frauds. 5% of all children are taken by the child protective system. It's gone too far, even people working there admits it. We have very little innovation due to terrible schools. We score very bad even though we are one of the richest countries in the world. We have only one college in the top 100.

That being said, we are intelligent and hard working people. But it is also a little bit of a lie that we have always been a capitalist hybrid society. In the 80s and 90s we were pretty much as capitalist as any country has ever been. Same with Sweden. And guess what..that's when we blossomed. Innovation was incredible - especially in Sweden. But as they (and us) has gone more towards socialism..our society has decayed.

We have bad health care. Bad schools. Bad education. We have to wait up to 2 months to get an appointment at the doctor. Most people just pay for private health insurance instead. I guess you don't see Michael Moore report on that? ;)

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idestroy (49) · 7 years ago

I am not socialist... nor do I think it works. I believe in fair reward for innovation and free market but you need nets so people don't fall off it. No system is perfect and systems need change according to the situation.

Yes, the open borders was a very bad idea. Everyone agrees on that.

Mediocre? By whose standard. Scandinavia has some of the best human development index. Bad schools? Bad education? You have some of the best scores worldwide. Again, by whose standards? It's good to push forward but it's also important to keep things in perspective.

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scandinavianlife (67) · 7 years ago

No really. We rank terrible. Bedtime now. Ill cough up some rankings tomorrow. Thanks for the discussion btw! Thumbs up

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charitybot (63) · 7 years ago

No one is going to approach your post, probably, and it would be dumb of me to, but I will because I enjoy being dumb on occasion.

Of course they are going to open the borders. Of course they are going to let an out-group entrench itself at your doorsteps. Of course they are going to silence dissent on the matter. Of course they want to make it politically incorrect to talk about such matters. Then there will always be two opposing sides and no position of understanding both.

Don't let what happened to the US (and many other countries) happen to your countries. I was considering posting a post of my own about this topic because I had seen some... interesting posts from certain people from countries like yours but I might as well just say some of those things here.

Okay, I'm sure you've pored over a lot of the facts and data already so I think I can dispense with citing anything, everything is easily searchable.

But a TL;DR would be that in creating an image of a Muslim welfare queen as they did in the US with the image of the black welfare queen, they can dismantle safety nets used by everyone by appealing to the conservative's desire to constrain resource use to whites, they're going to try the same approach in Scandinavian countries with African/Arab immigrants, as they have in Britain with Poles and other immigrants, as they tried in Australia with Asians, etc. etc. etc.

Everyone is a little bit correct, everyone's getting a little bit pissed off, everyone needs to realize that you can't have out-groups in chicken and egg problems of "they don't get hired because they aren't integrated, but they won't integrate themselves because they won't get hired" which are statistically, scientifically true outcomes of minority groups a lot of the time and depending on which ones you're talking about in certain countries could easily be solved, but the host nation enjoys playing a game where integration is made impossible just as an excuse to mess with everyone.

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3 votes

alexs1320 (71) · 7 years ago

Scandinavian is back!!! :D

Sharp from the first to the last sentence

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jahangirwifii (66) · 7 years ago

i appreciate with you

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acutimam (36) · 7 years ago

I do agree on some part of your post.

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onmindset (48) · 7 years ago

Thanks! Appreciate it

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happypeople (45) · 7 years ago

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funbobby51 (59) · 7 years ago

Identity politics is for losers because each identity group is based upon a victim narrative. The prerequisite is that you feel like a victim.

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onmindset (48) · 7 years ago

Word is bond.

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ipromote (64) · 7 years ago

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zallina (46) · 7 years ago

Post is very amazing right and very useful, hopefully I can like you fore,

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d-zero (68) · 7 years ago

Great to find you and follow you. Since you mentioned both Japan and charity, you might like this clip.

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movingman (69) · 7 years ago

hahaha all these labels I aint got a clue, but good rant sir!
I do see what your saying though of course, I couldnt read or watch news especially often though or id be ranting every hour hahaha!

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hansdewet (58) · 7 years ago

Great stuff enjoyed it! Very accurate

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nicksikorski (57) · 7 years ago

Bang on!

You didn't just study arts and then cried about there not being enough art-jobs out there or whatever. Actually, I was one of those as well. But eventually, I just said to myself - fuck this, I fucking fucked up.

With you there, man. Did a postgrad degree in Art History, buggered about for a few years, then thought fuck this and now I'm a farmer. Way better, way cooler, way more responsible.

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bengy (73) · 7 years ago

Sorry, I don't have time for an in depth read and reply. I agree in part with some of your criticisms, and I do think the liberal philosophy has given us great gains but is in a stage of ä bit too much".

However, the argument is probably a bit more nuanced than ALL liberals want this extremism. I would think that I would identify myself as liberal leaning, but I disagree with excesses of the extreme.

When I get back, I will try to post a proper answer.

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arcange (73) · 7 years ago

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bengy (73) · 7 years ago (edited)

Okay, now that I've had time to read a digest.

I think I agree in principle with what I think the core argument is. That liberalism carried to extreme can just be excuses or a limiting of speech and thought.

Despite the fact that if pressed I would describe myself as liberal, I do not agree with this extreme form of liberalism. But I think that problem is if you identify yourself with an ideology (of any stripe). In this case, you set yourself up against both real and imagined enemies (in the case of liberal ideology, the fear of offence), and you end up being defined by what you oppose rather than what you stand for.

So, I think in general I agree in part with you, but I wouldn't say that the extreme represents best the philosophy. I would also argue that it is not even the dominant force, only the most vocal.

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buildawhale (74) · 7 years ago

You got a 13.90% upvote from @buildawhale courtesy of @scandinavianlife!
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